/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17106738]

Democracy destroys capitalism
t. Milton Friedman

Democracy is not the rule by the people (demos) but rule by the poor.
t. Aristotle

[Anonymous No.17106740]

[Anonymous No.17106745]

>>17106738
I want to coom inside of her so badly bros

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17106910]

>>17106738
>demos
The demos are the common people

[Anonymous No.17106999]

>>17106910
Still required a hereditary right of citizenship based on long-term settlement in an area, providing all of your ancestors maintained a good reputation and you married other citizens. And it was strictly controlled unless you were some city-saving general or ultra-capable merchant who conferred huge gifts on the polis. Not like now where they hand it out like crackerjacks so someone can work at a Denny's and funnel the money back to the Phillipines or wherever. These people had a vested interest, their reputation tied to their ancestors and progeny who would all live and fight and prosper (or not) as a result of their state's success. It wasn't a fucking fire sale like it is now. And most people would serve some governmental role at some point. And they all voices their opinions in public in concert. Democracy then and now can't even be compared.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17107024]

>>17106999
>democracy is better when it’s a sham for elites
>not like now
Now is an oligarchy. The elites have got you trained well. Fool.

[Anonymous No.17107058]

>>17106738
>Democracy destroys capitalism
Nah, but it destroys both men and women over time.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17107102]

>>17107058
Capitalism does, yes.

See, actual democracy can lead us away from the elites economy of state-capitalism

[Anonymous No.17107147]

>>17107102
"Actual democracy" brings us back to disorganized Gallic tribal states. Soon as a Caesar appears, and a Caesar WILL appear (practically as a result of the tribal states), said states will get wiped out. Democracy is a preparation for tyrants thereby destroying itself.

[Anonymous No.17107228]

>>17106738
Constitutional monarchies with sufficiently empowered monarchs are the only way forward.

[Anonymous No.17107229]

>>17107102
> Tranny
> This delusional
Well, I can't say I'm surprised.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17107238]

>>17107147
>organization will bring disorganization!
Small states? Small tribes, and they’d have little reason to go to war because the vast majority would resist it. Full scale war would be unheard of.
>A Caesar appears!
We wouldn’t be the same kinds of people. Caesar can direct some movies or coordinate some infrastructure job somewhere.
The democracy of the past was by elites. The republic that allowed Caesar was a corrupt elite.
Emancipate women and the all the rest previously excluded and you’ve got a democracy


>can't say I'm surprised.
Delusional furfag

[Anonymous No.17107264]

>>17107238
>people will just magically stop forming tribes, stop electing tribe leaders, stop having children who develop a patriotism for their tribe, and stop fighting one another in the name of their patriotism, cuz democracy n shieeet
Do you have any real reason for believing anything you're saying? The world you're imagining would require a state in order to prevent the above from happening, even though you imagine it without one.

[Anonymous No.17107290]

>>17107102

> People of various cultures will transcend their cultural differences if only they are constantly involved in politics.

This is insanely naive. The only engine left for the momentum to led us away from state-capitalism is a common nationalism. The only place in America where unions are still somewhat strong, where left political movements aren't completely paralyzed by corporate-imposed standards of political correctness (they are getting there tho), is Quebec.

[Anonymous No.17107293]

>>17107290
And it's a shithole so lets avoid that lol.

[Anonymous No.17107302]

Based.

Fuck democracy.

[Anonymous No.17107304]

>>17107058
Imagine being dictated by the whims of loud plebs

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17107309]

>>17107264
>plan to organize a tribe like neighborhood, fracturing the elitist state controllers
Direct democracy needs no pyramid hierarchy. Though leaders can still lead their fields. They’ll be competent leaders at that. Not bought off yes-men. A major deformity of the modern world, you must admit.
> The world you're imagining would require a state
Hahahhahahahahha. No. It’s the state that requires the world be this way, the way we have. Without a state, a direct democracy with a non market economy would bring up a new kind of people. It would seem very alien to you, ye of little imagination

>>17107290
Less as time went by. Yes, attention to their business would do this.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17107319]

>>17107304
>Organization loud and bad
>War and poverty literally killing thousands good

>>17107302
“Based” posters are always horrible. Must be a troll

[Anonymous No.17107325]

>>17107293

Well, enjoy having dried tarantulas sold at your corner store (by a store clerk that only speaks arab).

[Anonymous No.17107396]

>>17107309
>ye of little imagination
Imagination is literally all you have for defending this magical dwarfocracy of yours. I asked for a real reason for believing what you're saying, but you give nothing.

[Anonymous No.17107470]

>>17107024
>>17106999
>>17107396

[Anonymous No.17107480]

>>17107319
Fuck off democracy shill.

[Anonymous No.17107489]

>>17107102
>ACTUAL democracy
Wew lad

[Anonymous No.17107506]

>>17107319
In democracy your opinion would not even be allowed.

look everyone in this thread disagrees with you.

rule by popular opinion is the greatest sham and democracy is the worst polity

[Anonymous No.17107615]

>>17106738
>Democracy is not the rule by the people (demos) but rule by the poor.
GIGO when the people are poor

[Anonymous No.17107781]

>>17106745
u should try rape

[Anonymous No.17107840]

>>17107319
In "actual democracy" it would be fully allowed to wage war and create poverty for killing thousands

[Anonymous No.17107907]

>>17107024
Butterfly dropping based bombs of knowledge.

And she is *absolutely* right here. Democracy means rule by the demos. It does *not* mean rule by elected representatives or leaders (the term today has morphed from its old, true definition). Athenians would have laughed at you if you said that we're living in a democracy, or even a republic. They would have pointed out, quite correctly, that we are living in an oligarchy. Elections guarantee that, and invite corruption and intrigue and cabals trying to push things one way or the other. "Electoral Democracy" is a an oxymoron.

Real democracy means sortition and votes (when they are needed) on specific items put to the entire body politic.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17107919]

>>17107470
Racist do have a hard time with the whole plurality thing, this is obvious. Not everyone is a racist though. Aristotle couldn’t convince of this.

>>17107396
What have you read? The malleability of the human mind is ready for extraordinary things. A society based not on fierce competition (that’s competing with deadly force) but with cooperation and competence, would lead to a very nice place to live.
>psychology isn’t real! Synapsis aren’t real!!
Goodbye.

>>17107480
>we must continue to worship the elites
Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, are we?

>>17107489
By which I mean direct democracy. Not republics or some other sham voting system.

>>17107840
Hm. Let’s imagine all the chuds moving to the same location so they can create such a place that would create poverty and sanction killing thousands.
I imagine the surrounding polities would need to gather a war party and squash such degeneracy.
Losing side of history.

[Anonymous No.17107932]

>>17107907
How to implement sortition?

[Anonymous No.17107933]

>>17107907
>the masses should get to pick who they truly want to lead them!
>the masses pick trump
>no no stupid masses! you were supposed to pick bernie!

[Anonymous No.17107943]

>>17107919
>Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, are we?
100 years of democracy and look how bad it has gotten

[Anonymous No.17107948]

>>17107919
>A society based not on fierce competition (that’s competing with deadly force) but with cooperation and competence, would lead to a very nice place to live.
For who?

>Let’s imagine all the chuds moving to the same location so they can create such a place that would create poverty and sanction killing thousands.
Are democrats usually this Hitlerian?

[Anonymous No.17107950]

>>17107933
>no no stupid masses! you were supposed to pick bernie!
/Biden/clinton

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17107961]

>>17107943
This is not a democracy

[Anonymous No.17107988]

>>17107932
It's hard to implement it on a large scale. Democracy is great, but it doesn't scale terrifically well. I'm actually considering writing a piece on localism and sortition. I have a number of books I'm working through right now to see if I think it would be worthwhile.

Short answer is that you need a devolution of power to local regions. While Butterfly clearly throws shade at >>17106999, the anon with trips is nevertheless right that you want citizens to have some 'skin in the game,' and the easiest way to do that is to require them to live where they have influence on governance, commerce, agriculture, environment, etc. While I would suggest sortition even there, I'm a big agnostic on it, so long as the ability to move from one region to another exists. If some region wants to use elections, fine, so long as you're not bound to it.

Then, to the extent necessary, if there are larger nation-wide issues that need to be addressed, I would suggest using sortition to choose an ad-hoc group of 'representatives' from the regions (provided they can't all be accommodated), and then require that group to either come to consensus to make decisions or policy, or to use a Calhoun-esque system of concurrent majorities.

But really, I would be happy with a straight, 100% sortition based government. It can't be any worse than what we already have.

[Anonymous No.17107998]

>>17107933
Outside of aesthetics, I don't have any more significant objections to Trump than I do any other politician, so you're barking up the wrong tree there.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17108001]

>>17107933
You are having trouble reading, anon

[Anonymous No.17108006]

>>17106738
tiddies

[Anonymous No.17108010]

>>17107988
>I'm a big agnostic
...I'm a bit* agnostic...

[Anonymous No.17108012]

>>17107932
AI and the internet

[Anonymous No.17108041]

>>17108012
>AI
Absolutely, 100% NO! An AI-driven government is an algorithm driven government, and an algorithm driven government is every bit as oligarchic as what we have now. I do not want some group of techies programming the AIs and algorithms that would govern anyone.

>and the internet
This certainly does make communication and large-scale votes easier and more practical. Beyond that, though, I don't know.

[Anonymous No.17108059]

>>17108041
>An AI-driven government is an algorithm driven government
Yes, and? Sortition is based on algorithms. If you want it to work, you can't be afraid of using technology.

[Anonymous No.17108106]

>>17108059
You don't need AI to make a random* selection from interested parties. The Greeks had this figured out well enough with the kleroterion device.

*Yes, I know actual 100% randomness is difficult or even impossible to get to. But we can get *close enough* without turning our systems over to AIs.

[Anonymous No.17108137]

>>17108106
So how do you suppose those digital ballots are going to be selected randomly? You can't use the internet to implement direct democracy if you refuse to use AI, so now you're back to square one, a situation where sortition is impossible to implement at the current scale of society.

[Anonymous No.17108183]

>>17108137
You must have completely missed the point where I said that we need a devolution of political power to local regions.

[Anonymous No.17109063]

>>17107238
I’m curious what action you take aside from arguing with incels on /lit/. Also, do you recommend any order for reading these, or does it not matter?

[Anonymous No.17109079]

>>17109063
she always gets passed over for the promotion to shift manager at Walmart, so to get back at them she always comes in ten minutes late, take that Walton family!

[Anonymous No.17109095]

Just a reminder that democracy is the enemy of philosophy

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17109147]

>>17109063
Still in the planning phase/mustering up courage in the face of a pandemic/waiting for the right moment (which looks soonish, don’t you think?)
I have no experience in this sort of thing. Who could I talk to, where should I go? I am thinking it all over.
Yeah, any order should be fine. I like how they compare to Stirner and the rest. Herod hates him, but understands there’s going to be individualistic sorts. And Öcalan may not translate well for all his talk of “Nation”. I think he’s talking about the sort of nation native Americans have there. Which sounds very much like Herod’s Democratic autonomous neighborhoods

[Anonymous No.17109183]

>>17109147
I have nothing to contribute to this conversation yet, but I appreciate your recommendations.

[Anonymous No.17109256]

>>17106910
I find it quite funny how you quote Aristotle to defend democracy

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17109263]

>>17109256
I don’t even care what he thought of the commoners ruling. Giggle like a school girl all you like.

[Anonymous No.17109277]

>>17109263
Keep fantasizing

[Anonymous No.17109658]

Democracy is just glorified mob rule and only degenerated sub-90 IQ imbeciles, niggers and trannies with high time preference can be impressed by it

[Anonymous No.17109667]

>>17108183
There's still billions of people on the planet. How many local political institutions do you want to have? Is that all you want people doing, just managing politics?

[Anonymous No.17109689]

>>17107919

Aristotle was right. The result of diversity in my country is decreased liberty and increased corruption.

[Anonymous No.17109764]

>>17107988
>It can't be any worse than what we already have.
this

[Anonymous No.17109787]

>>17109658
which form of democracy?

[Anonymous No.17109892]

>>17109787
All of them

[Anonymous No.17109900]

>>17106738
Yes democracy and capitalism are not compatible

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17109904]

>>17109787
The kind where “mobs” yell and scream incoherently at each other, try to burn the building down and don’t work. He can’t imagine any other kind.

>>17109667
It won’t take so long and they’ll have more free time on their hands once the fetters of state-capitalism gets thrown off.

>>17109689
That’s capitalism corrupting things. C’mon.
Strict separatists of a religious sort, or racists and the like can certainly cause trouble, but don’t assign Aristotle some prophetic powers on this. He was raised an elite in patriarchal slave state.

[Anonymous No.17109941]

>>17107961
100+ years of democracy in countless of different countries made out of different demographics

all failed

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17109965]

>>17109941
Where and how, exactly?

[Anonymous No.17110200]

>>17107961
“real democracy hasn’t been tried!”

[Anonymous No.17111885]

>>17107302
This exact 3 words went through my brain and then I saw your post a second later

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17112068]

>>17111885
>I-I too am a chud. *tears up*

[Anonymous No.17112241]

>>17109904
while capitalism may have a hand in the degradation of that anon’s country, make no mistake that aristotle is right about significance of ethnic homogeny as a recipe for successful democracy. i’ll take a page out of people that think like you: the scandanavian countries, the bastions heralded by left-leaning thinkers for their success of democracy and the socialized systems they have in place. these countries are heavily ethnically homogenous, despite sweden’s best efforts otherwise. this, to me, is the absolute reason why socialization works well (that along with lower populations, but the system would likely scale if the homogeny is constant). aristotle’s thinking still rings true.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17112396]

>>17112241
>significance of ethnic homogeny as a recipe for successful democracy
It can help, sure. But Aristotle could not have known the world we live in now. Why don’t white supremacists see the world we’re living in now?
You think Sweden’s economy works well because of their complexion?
Maybe it’s because they all speak English now? No? Absurd. Never mind.

[Anonymous No.17112464]

>>17112396
youre using a lot of words to essentially say nothing that refutes anything. so what that aristotle didnt predict everything about today? it still holds true.
>white supremacists
are you trying to imply that im this? im not white
>sweden’s economy works well because of their complexion
works well how? this is subjective. by gdp? its not even in the top 20. gdp per capita the us is still higher. regardless of your metric (and the gdp ones are just tip of the iceberg used purely for example, not to convince). as for the complexion part it honestly just reads like you’re babbling

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj No.17112475]

>>17112464
It is a generalization. And holds hardest in the most racist ignorant fools. No fault lies in the system but the brain ingrained fools
>I’m not white
Okay. Most prevalent around here. Doesn’t change anything.

[Anonymous No.17112487]

>>17112475
hot air. you’re still effectively saying nothing. cmon you’re smarter than this butterfly.

[Anonymous No.17112910]

>>17109147
It feels like the moment has always been soonish, but any sort of actual revolution and implementation of a radically different form of government in America is only ever entertained in some distant or not so distant future. I feel like this skips over the absurdity of whichever new ideology is expected to prevail and the process of actually implementing it in our current society.
I used to be kind of into anti-capitalist stuff, but it started to feel like entertaining it was a waste of time when I haven’t heard or thought of a convincing situation for implementation. Except in some slightly distant, vague future. kind of just putting my thoughts into a post here, but the soonish comment brought this to mind. I’m not as well read on this, but I can’t get past this reality disconnect in my mind