/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.17094455]

Look at what we have in store for the 2020s -- economic decline, atomization, depression, identity politics, and anxiety. Accept it, liberalism has failed.

[Anonymous No.17094493]

>>17094455
>economic decline
absolute total economic collapse*

[Anonymous No.17094509]

>>17094455
>>17094493
Remember when oil prices went negative in america for the first time in history a couple months back and everybody was declaring the arrival of the apocalypse but then nothing happened? Liberalism is the most resilient ideology in the world, it will never die.

[Anonymous No.17094512]

I can't argue against it. The problem with the notion of free expression is that it does not have any capacity to limit objectively bad long-term ideas, and between opportunism and self-indulgence, some truly monstrous psychopaths have set up the largest economic bubble in history atop a society of hopelessly gullible and close-minded multitudes.

I just don't know how it could've been improved. Being censorious on particular subjects allows for people to abuse those edicts of censorship to limit speech of any kind they want by arbitrarily tying it back to censored topics- "Talking about Y is actually talking about X, and X is banned discussion." It's why hate speech doesn't work.

[Anonymous No.17094514]

About time pomo makes its way into america

[Anonymous No.17094517]

>>17094455
Well, now's as good of a timebas any to tell you all that Dandelions are 100% edible, from flower to root. The leaves amd shoots make a yummy salad, or can be cooked like cabbage collards.

[Anonymous No.17094528]

>>17094517
Best with bugs left on.

[Anonymous No.17094548]

>>17094509
>everybody was declaring the arrival of the apocalypse
twitterniggerfags don't count

[Anonymous No.17094550]

>>17094509
I am very interested in this subject, though I am not myself a Fukuyamist.
You see, I think liberalism is zis resilient because it manages to manufacture consent better than any other ideology. Ultimately, a government lasts as long as the people want it to: governments will devolve not into tyrany, but into whatever gives people the illusion that they control it. Zis is Liberalism now because there is no alternataive that gives people a greater illusion of control.

[Anonymous No.17094609]

>>17094455
What's the alternative? Fascism and communism failed too.

[Anonymous No.17094623]

>>17094609
Third positionism: the economic and social system pre ww1 european countries had.

[Anonymous No.17094650]

>>17094609
a decentralized world where people can freely choose and migrate between communities of differing values and systems.

[Anonymous No.17094651]

>>17094509
You're expecting apocalypse as an instant, but perhaps it simply doesn't work that way. It is difficult to explain what is happening, but the market crisis, even though it occurs mostly as surface signs, will relate to incredible effects over the next few decades.
Things are never going to be the same. An almost instant 30% inflation in food and other essentials is only the beginning. The end of restaurants, or the unofficial rent jubilee, only seems insignificant because of the extent to which we expect a shift to happen, and the depth to which nihilism has taken hold of all thought.
The death of liberalism occurred long ago, and what we experience is only a surface of control measures - along with the refusal to accept that the shift will occur much differently than anyone thought. The right-wing meme is Global Weimar, but Global Nuremberg combined with Global Perestroika would be a much more accurate analogy.

[Anonymous No.17094692]

>>17094650
Nah my nigger, centralization always wins in the end. Good luck trying to make comunes in Arabia.

[Anonymous No.17094731]

>>17094692
>centralization always wins in the end
Western nations are clearly already more decentralized than places like russia, china. they do just fine. further decentralization is inevitable when they introduce UBI.

>Good luck trying to make comunes in Arabia
it doesnt have to start there. the scientific revolution didn't begin in an arabian tribe. it just needs to get going.

[Anonymous No.17094805]

>>17094609
That’s the problem. There is no alternative. We’re literally just gonna sit in a technocratic dystopia of degeneracy and anger while everyone remains indoctrinated to fight for freedom and equality.

[Anonymous No.17094819]

>>17094512
By it never happening. Europe is a truly degenerate continent

[Anonymous No.17094833]

>>17094455
I don't categorically disagree that liberalism has failed, but I prefer to see it as malfunctioning rather than having become totaled beyond repair. And it's a bit of a stretch to pin all those problems on liberalism.

>Economic decline
This is more like economic liberalism eats itself by creating concentrations of wealth which distort free market principles. It's self-contradictory in the same way that a monopoly is a contradiction within free markets that arises out of them. Usually this is not what people mean when they mention liberalism as a moral and political value system, although there is a logical connection between them.
>Atomization
This is more about technology and a breakdown of communities, it's not immediately clear how being able to do as you please, consent of the governed, and equality of the law causes that.
>Depression, this is a mental disorder, with numerous proximate and distal causes. Pinning it on liberalism is a stretch.
>identity politics
This one is an unambiguous outgrowth of liberalism, but it's not nearly as bad or important as other issues. It's just a waste of time and a sideshow of the narcissism of liberal values
>anxiety
Again, just a generic mental state.

[Anonymous No.17094903]

>>17094833
liberalism may not be the direct cause for many of these surface symptoms but i do think western thinking/worldview is under critical load. it may not survive this decade.

[Anonymous No.17094926]

>>17094455
finding out that Obama liked this book was strange

[Anonymous No.17094961]

>>17094926
you know he projected it against trump

[Anonymous No.17095019]

>>17094903
Well, thinking is thinking. It doesn't really die, nor does it need to survive. It just changes. And once it has outlived its use, it should change. There's no reason to be attached to it. Ideas evolve through dialectic and so on. The end of a worldview is not the end of the world. If liberalism as we know it has a limited run, so be it.

I guess you could say that something else alien to the west could come fill in the gap, like Islam. But I would say there is no real gap. There is a certain principle of contiguity in the laws of thought that states that people are never without values or beliefs. Just because one value system has reached its end doesn't mean it will leave a void, it will change into something else by the time it gets there.

[Anonymous No.17095026]

>>17094651
Based and truepilled

[Anonymous No.17095028]

>>17095019
>I guess you could say that something else alien to the west could come fill in the gap, like Islam.

Islam is being assimilated into liberal degeneracy too, at least in America. Muslims are among the most liberal people I know and are starting to accept the woke shit that contradicts their religion in every possible way. Liberalism just consumes everything, including Islam

[Anonymous No.17095030]

>>17095019
I actually agree with you. I understand that my language choice may have given the impression that i foresee a doom or an actual end coming.

[Anonymous No.17095044]

>>17095028
It’s almost as if people hold contradictory values all the time

[Anonymous No.17095052]

>>17095019
>>17095028
How can I take this mutant-liberalism thing and use it for my own advantage (the same way Napoleon did)?

[Anonymous No.17095058]

>>17094609
Libertarianism or ordoliberalism

[Anonymous No.17095106]

>>17094692
Increasing centralization is the sign of a civilization about to collapse

[Anonymous No.17095117]

>>17095028
Islam has been politically dead for a long time. People were saying that over 100 years ago

[Anonymous No.17095121]

>>17095058
>ordoliberalism
So glowniggerism. See >>17094651

[Anonymous No.17095134]

>>17094833
The problem with liberalism is that it has led to an "anti-culture". A culture is supposed to nurture, to cultivate people.

Liberalism ended up becoming anti-culture. The whole "whatever someone does to his/her own body is his/her own problem and you can't judge it" thing.

[Anonymous No.17095155]

>>17094509
Yeah, because the money machines went brrrrr and printed 1,7 trillion out of nowhere.

[Anonymous No.17095222]

>>17095052
Napoleon is actually a quite useful example because he rose to power in direct response to the first wave of revolutionary liberalization in Europe. This was at the birth of liberalism rather than its death, however. Napoleon was as in Hegel's view, Napoleon embodied the resolution of the antipodal historical forces of revolution and counterrevolution.
> “I saw the Emperor – this world soul ; it is indeed a wonderful feeling to see such a person who, concentrated here on a point, sitting on a horse, extends to the world and dominates it.
Napoleon was originally an ardent supporter of the Revolution, and help suppress the monarchy. Napoleon forms resolution of contradictions in one man, the absolute authority who uses his rule to otherwise promote values of liberty, equality, and fraternity. Values which, left to their own devices, led to anarchy.
In fact Napoleon justified his wars as the continuation of the French Revolutionary Wars which were declared by France on the monarchies of Europe as a preemptive strike, assuming that they would all eventually attack France to stop liberalization from spreading.

The revolution for liberty, in other words, had to become what it isn't to reach the manifestation seen in the Napoleonic civic code: it needed what it rejected (central authority) to support what it accepted (liberty). Napoleon was a sort of paradoxical dictator of liberty, an autocratic promoter of equality before the law and fairness.

During times of chaos and the collapse of values, people tend to flock to the opposite end. The rise of authoritarianism represented by the 2016 American election of Trump speaks to that. However, the reaction must contain the action to succeed, the authority must restore and give back the order the collapse of which people are fleeing from, to be admired and supported.

[Anonymous No.17095257]

>>17094455
>economic decline
natural part of any functioning economy, it's called a recession
>atomization
good
>depression
doesn't exist
>identity politics
doesn't exist
>anxiety
go outside

[Anonymous No.17095352]

>>17095257
>go outside

lol

[Anonymous No.17095420]

>>17094609
but liberalism, unlike fascism and communism, failed in a vacuum

[Anonymous No.17095439]

>>17094509
>he still in denial
liberalism was and always has been about destroying white societies. tell me a successful non-white liberal society?

[Anonymous No.17095447]

>>17095439
Singapore

[Anonymous No.17095453]

>>17095257
Based and detachedfromreality-pilled

[Anonymous No.17095458]

>>17094609
there is not going to be an alternative, is either submit to the next power completely (china seems the most likely) or die.

[Anonymous No.17095466]

>>17095439
hong kong and s. korea?

[Anonymous No.17095483]

>>17095447
I don't think Singapore was very liberal.

[Anonymous No.17095496]

>>17095483
he liked liberal prosperity but he sees the same flaws in it that /lit/ does, I think

[Anonymous No.17095512]

>>17095439
Taiwan

[Anonymous No.17095860]

>economic decline
What metrics are you using here to make that claim?

> identity politics
Do you think that the Civil Rights movement in the 60s was identity politics?

[Anonymous No.17095877]

>>17094455
Oh I have. SUMMON THE LEVIATHAN.

[Anonymous No.17096093]

>>17095860
>What metrics are you using here to make that claim?

This is just patently obvious so not even gonna waste my time responding

>Do you think that the Civil Rights movement in the 60s was identity politics?

No, the identity politics of today is just slave morality and abstract identitarianism. Black nationalism however was idpol

[Anonymous No.17096111]

>>17095439
You're just proving that liberalism only works if whites do it, so it can't be destroying their societies

[Anonymous No.17096121]

>>17095860
Wasn't the Civil Rights movement of the 60s about getting beyond identity politics? Y'know, "Judge a man not by his color .. "

[Anonymous No.17096124]

>>17095106
No. Take the long view of history: tribe to nation state to larger and larger nation states and larger and larger governments. Remember when we used to sperg out about 2% tax rates?

I’ll tell you why this happens too. Technological progress requires specialization of labour. You need a labour pool the size of a nation state to produce a tank, and the size of a continent to make an ISS. As technology creeps, forms of social organization must expand in scope to keep up, and this spirals towards a greater expansion of government (in scope and scale). I mean the very definition of societal progress is the creep of socialization to greater and greater extents of life, and every society has a government.

[Anonymous No.17096138]

>>17096111
True, but you might say that this ultimately makes liberalism cannibalistic. The universalist aspects of liberalism inherently lead to its collapse.

[Anonymous No.17096146]

>>17094609
Systemised government with algorithms.

[Anonymous No.17096147]

>>17096124
You must welcome our new chinese overlords

[Anonymous No.17096163]

>>17096147
I don’t like this either my dude, I’m making a positive claim.

[Anonymous No.17096173]

>>17096163
How do you explain the fact that the more decentralized, liberal systems won out vs the more centralized authoritarian systems in the past?

[Anonymous No.17096179]

>>17096146
Hearty kek.
>if nigger
>reparations++
>else
>end
>do while (1)

[Anonymous No.17096220]

>>17096173
In name. The current government of most western democracies is more centralized than that of the absolute monarchies of the 18th and 19th centuries.

This is a trend. Of course, a decentralized US is gonna win in a war against a decentralized Botswana, but if you take the historical track record, then we’ve sure as hell have basically never seen fully fledged nation states devolve permanently into city states, or decentralize into a loose confederation of tribes.

You can see this right now in the market and army, both of which have become so specialized as to require superstates for appropriate function. The EU formed because no individual country has the economy or army to compete with the US and China.

[Anonymous No.17096228]

>>17096220
You think America wouldve beaten USSR with more ease if America was more centralized?

[Anonymous No.17096232]

>>17096093
>This is just patently obvious so not even gonna waste my time responding
Well the reason why I say this is because by many metrics the liberal economy is succeeding for instance there are vastly fewer people in poverty, GDP per capita has continued to increase, inflation rates are lower, unemployment has stabilised and people are working comparatively less hours for similar amounts of money (factoring in inflation).

Not only that but all the other competing systems have essentially collapsed or become isolated to a few countries.

>No
What do you think separates it after all it was people organising collectively on identity lines to gain better treatment for that identity.

>>17096121
>Wasn't the Civil Rights movement of the 60s about getting beyond identity politics?
The same could be said of the current BLM movement.

[Anonymous No.17096254]

>>17096228
In a war? Of course.

[Anonymous No.17096265]

>>17096228
By the way I’m not a fan of economic central planning, nor do I think it promotes economic development better. When I mean centralization I mean it as opposed to regionalism.

[Anonymous No.17096303]

>>17094651
This

[Anonymous No.17096308]

Like most things, it actually comes down to human brokenness. Nations will rise and fall, but the Word of our Lord stands forever.

European Modernist angst after World War One, colliding with untold material prosperity, began the inevitable collapse of Christianity in the West. In America Christianity held out longer, but in the postwar boom, prosperity and the widespread popularization of Modernist angst has largely killed it in America as well. White boomers (Christian or not) had massive blind spots towards the latent flaws in late capitalism (the proliferation of image, alienation, jadedness, entitlement, and the perpetuation of racist structures that were already present), and 60s radicals rejected Christianity as authoritarian and outmoded on a postcolonial, Marxist platform.

That isn't to say God isn't still working all over the world, including in Western country's. He can work in any situation. But as for Liberalism, without the moral core provided by Christianity, confusion and chaos ensues. Tragically this is exactly what is occurring in the US as we speak.

Submission to the Scripture is the only way to personal peace.

[Anonymous No.17096311]

>>17094623
We're already stuck in those systems

[Anonymous No.17096317]

[Anonymous No.17096345]

>>17094609
The formation of the Galactic Federation of Amazonia under Chief Executive Overlord Bezos, who by then has uploaded his mind and become one with an all seeing machine.

[Anonymous No.17096355]

>>17096311
Not even close. We don’t have state capitalism, we don’t have ethno states. That covers the broad bases of “economic” and “cultural”.

[Anonymous No.17096356]

>>17094805
> There is no alternative
>Can't into Hegelian dialectics
There is always an alternative. Even if the alternative arises from the incompleteness of the prevailing system itself and the problems it creates as its own byproduct that it fails to reconcile.

[Anonymous No.17096372]

>>17096232
>What do you think separates it after all it was people organising collectively on identity lines to gain better treatment for that identity

The 60s civil rights movement was an integration of liberalism that used that framework of ethics to advocate for ending segregation and giving equality based on the Constitution. Black nationalism opposed that, and the current Woke racial discourse is just an inversion of the liberal ethical framework. Nowadays people accept the liberal consensus of oppression, white supremacy etc, but it's flipped on an axis of complete narcissism where they worship their inferior identities because they see them as inferior, and resent other races for being their masters. That's what makes today's identity politics so cancerous, it applies beyond just race. Everything is slave morality and narcissism over incredibly ambiguous identities (pronouns, race)

[Anonymous No.17096389]

>>17094509
>a system that is a couple hundred years old will never die because it's lasted a couple hundred years

[Anonymous No.17096401]

>>17096356
>>Hegelian dialectics
literally made up German autism nonsense

[Anonymous No.17096440]

>>17094455
Define Liberalism.

[Anonymous No.17096473]

>>17096440
The organization of society with respect to a hierarchy of liberality, like with “Race-ism”. The idea is that those who are inherently more liberal should be given power.

[Anonymous No.17096476]

>>17095860
>Do you think that the Civil Rights movement in the 60s was identity politics?
It was, the reason modern "identity politics" is un-defeatable is because it is an attempt to fulfill the goals of the Civil Rights Movement, which has now become the founding myth of the US. There's actually no real difference between Martin Luther King, Jr. and contemporary dimwits like Ibram X. Kendi or Robin DiAngelo.

[Anonymous No.17096498]

>>17096372
Why aren't blacks equal yet? This is the core question of contemporary identity politics.

[Anonymous No.17096518]

>>17096473
lol

[Anonymous No.17096925]

>>17096498
it's really not

[Anonymous No.17097238]

>>17096476
(1/2)
Modern idpol is qualitatively different from the civil rights movement, even though they may try to paint it as a natural outgrowth of the movement. The American civil rights movement was not seeking a radical departure from the famed American values of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it was only asking that they actually be applied to everyone equally regardless of categories such as sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity, and so on. Just think about it longer than two seconds and you can see there was a clear difference between the fight to end segregation and the modern BLM movement, for instance, because the modern BLM movement doesn’t have a clear enemy to fight against such as legalized segregation or not having the right to vote. Likewise, there’s a clear difference between the earlier waves of feminism, getting women the right to vote and work and all, and its modern mutation into radical feminism and transgender ideology.

The issues the modern social justice idpol movement is fighting against are now “systemic.” They don’t have anything so concrete as freeing blacks from slavery, giving them the vote, ending segregation, giving women the vote and the right to work, etc. Now the enemy is things like “systemic” racism and sexism. So this is why modern idpol is obsessed with statistics, for example, although of course only when they support their side — statistics about “environmental racism” (how minorities are more likely to be harmfully impacted by pollution and the like), the supposed gender wage gap, about wealth inequality between blacks and whites, statistics about how LGBT people are more likely to suffer from mental health issues, differences in health outcomes between women and men, and so forth. Also tying into this transmutation of the civil rights movement to the modern idpol social justice movement is the creation of political correctness, which includes the focus on “microaggressions” and the cancerous creation of “cancel culture”. Not even the most devoted Tumblrina Marxist can in all good faith say that blacks today have it as bad as they did under slavery or the Jim Crow era of lynching, or that Western women have it as bad as they did three hundred years ago, so they have to create and magnify issues to keep up their relevance in the public sphere. This is why you get news stories of “local man says racist thing.”

[Anonymous No.17097291]

>>17097238
(2/2)
But how do you fix these systemic issues when you don’t have a clear enemy to fight against like segregation or not being allowed to vote? Think about it. What are the actual goals of the BLM movement, for instance?

Does the average person even know what the goals of the BLM movement are?

>uhhh ... to remind us all that black lives matter, bro? Obviously bro. It’s right in the name.

No, the funny thing is that BLM is legitimately a radical crypto-Marxist movement. When the issues you’re fighting against are “systemic” and not the result of any one law alone, it clearly stands to reason that the only solution is a radical systemic overhaul of America. This is why BLM goals include things like defunding the police, ending deportations, and instituting reparations. What does antifa actually want for that matter?

>uhh to fight fascism duh?

Where is the ACTUAL fascism in America? Hard-mode: edgy teenaged Stormfronters on /pol/ making antisemitic memes, rural Republican-voting hicks, and your dad don’t count. And say, why has the Soros-run Open Society Foundation donated so much to the Black Lives Matter movement? Furthermore, why have hack liberal websites like Snopes and PolitiFact taken the most biased accounts they could find of conservative pundits saying “Soros pays these radical protestors directly and wants to overthrow America” then run hitpieces saying “we rate this claim mostly false”, dressing it up in a thick layer of bullshit, so that if you suggest to someone, “Hey, look into Soros’s ties into Antifa and BLM,” one of the first things you’ll see on a Google search is these hack articles saying “This has been debunked” even as they admit the Open Society Foundation has made significant donations to the BLM movement?

[Anonymous No.17097344]

>>17094455
Deneen makes some good points but he's too attached to his catholicism to see the way the wind is blowing. Americans, even conservative ones, have less attachment to religion beyond aesthetic then ever before; whatever replaces liberalism (a tall order) will either be fascism or some sort of socialism.

[Anonymous No.17097396]

>>17094517
kek thanks

[Anonymous No.17097405]

>>17094731
>when they introduce UBI
scary

[Anonymous No.17097415]

>>17096401
Uh oh, he asserted that something is autism. There can be no argument beyond this. Autism, guys!

[Anonymous No.17097465]

>>17097291
BLM ideology is a jumble of incoherent ideas and thoughts, put together without any regard for rationality or consistency. I don't think that the general public really has an understanding of BLM's core demands, nor do these people understand how to create a powerful movement with coherent and logical tenets. If you asked most Americans what are the central tenants of Black Lives Matter they would probably be unable to give you anything but some vague platitudes about equality, justice, fairness and so on. There is little in terms of actual concrete policy, theory, or organization. It seems to rather be a movement of racial grievance and resentment than rooted in a coherent end goal. The movement lacks any sort of coherent philosophy and so when it tries to speak on these matters its words are empty platitudes, devoid of meaning or substance. This makes it vulnerable to attacks.

BLM is composed of people with good intentions. I think that they are misguided and their tactics have often been counterproductive, but BLM activists genuinely want to help black Americans. The movement's goal is just so vague, disorganized, and decentralized that it is easy for others with strict theory and ideology to hijack its energy for their ends (like Marxists or Antifa anarcho communists). The goal is very broad: end racism. But they don't offer a consistent vision to get there

[Anonymous No.17097488]

>>17097291
Black Lives Matter is an ideology of racial separatism, the opposite of what MLK wanted. It is separatism and racial tribalism. It is exclusionary, which goes against MLK's vision of inclusive pluralistic society. Their claims of police targeting them by race are not rooted in fact. Police are more likely to shoot whites than blacks and blacks are more likely to be shot by other blacks than they are police. Blacks are more likely to live in poorer neighborhoods and have less education, which leads to higher crime rates. Instead of addressing the issues leading to this, they fan the flames of tribalism, racism, and hatred against cops, whites, and America. It is a movement pushed because of its divisiveness and undermining of unity across racial lines. This is why wealthy liberals support it despite its ostensible revolutionary rhetoric.

[Anonymous No.17097533]

>>17097488
the issues leading to black poverty are systemic racism, which is what blm is about. white people are often blinded to the reality and residual historical impact of systemic racism entrenched in power systems whether officially legally or not. this country had segregation until only 50 some years ago. its all in living memory of some black folks. you cant just fix this overnight. these are a people taken from their roots and deprived of everything. made second class citizens and slaves. white people are simply afraid of coming to full terms with this, it is not insidious agenda, it is more white fragility and uncomfortableness of facing the historical injustice and lingering effects. they do not want to solve it or address it, because they feel it may be admitting a wrongdoing or they want to maintain that system deep down because it is in their racial group interest. some are aware or willing to face the challenges and confront these legacies to create a better future for black people. that is what blm is about. addressing the legacies of historical oppression and subjugation and the lingering after effects. have a true reconciliation with the atrocities of the past and create a way forward by adjusting the system instead of hand waving it away. blm is about emancipation and finishing the job of reconstruction. it is about fulfilling the promise of all men created equal. it is about truly fulfilling mlk's dream, which has not been fulfilled as you think. it is about individual liberation of the black man, which again contrary to popular myth, still remains to occur. there is no insidious agenda against white people, rather white people have failed to address the issues facing the black community that linger from historic white supremacist hegemony

[Anonymous No.17097565]

>>17097465
>It seems to rather be a movement of racial grievance and resentment than rooted in a coherent end goal.

as someone else said, it's literally slave morality: the ideology. that's how modern liberalism is in general, you can say the same for these "trans rights" people. empty platitudes and universalist slogans to vindicate their inferiority complex

[Anonymous No.17097572]

>>17097488
shit take, racism still exists and it intersects with class
dont be a reductionist
you are also getting into right winger territory with the "muh 13%" and misrepresenting mlk.

>>17097465
it seems simple to me. police reform, end discrimination, address the legacy of it, challenge the power structures perpetuating white supremacist hegemony, and move towards an integrated post racial society. this is how i see it. the tactics to get there (i presume you refer to alleged "riots") are no less worse than the police brutality and state repression of these people expressing their discontent. this is the coherent goal and philosophy. there are ways to get there. blm is a movement, not an organization. a movement aligned with fighting racism.

>>17097291
BLM is not marxist, it is against racism not anti capitalism although in the movement by its nature as not an organization but broad movement there are some anti capitalist currents but the main goal is addressing racism and how it manifests

its not hard to understand. you guys are misrepresenting it

[Anonymous No.17097592]

>>17097465
Exactly my point. It’s a Trojan horse. When your stated goals are so broad as to be almost meaningless (“end racism” “end sexism”), they’re useful fronts for a radical subversive ideology hiding behind it.

One interesting thing you can do with the social justice idpol movement is shift the Overton window of society at large as to how acceptable it is to question mainstream narratives. For instance, there’s the demonization of the alt-right bogeyman and its association with “conspiracy theories.” You can’t outright just start calling it politically incorrect to question mainstream narratives and to offer conspiracy theories in their stead, people would smell something fishy, so what you do is manufacture an “alt-right” limited hangout in which people prone to question what the mainstream media feeds them will get caught up in circlejerking over tedious racial politics and gender politics the same way idpol socjus types do. You also tar conspiracy theorists and alternative news websites as “having ties to dangerous far-right white nationalist ideology”. You can’t outright say “It’s politically incorrect to question the New World Order” because people would instantly notice something is up, so you now shift the focus to “There is an epidemic of fake news in our society” as well as claims like, “Conspiracy theories around George Soros are motivated by antisemitism” and “Alex Jones [a libertarian] is a far-right conspiracy theorist.” And people who are disgusted by the increasing pozz go, “Well, fuck it, I may as well become a far-right ethnonationalist obsessed with racial IQ statistics since that’s what the Jews seem to not want me to do,” thus effectively neutering their political effectiveness. Congrats, your mass societal psy-op has been successfully pulled off.

[Anonymous No.17097694]

>>17096925
It is, we're just afraid of confronting what most people believe the answer is, openly or not

[Anonymous No.17097705]

>>17097533
>>17097572
(1/2)
Once again, how do you do something so vague as “end racism”? There are no clear policy goals. All you have is “white supremacy is entrenched in our society” and “white supremacy must be overturned.” OK, how? Vote for Joe Biden? Joe Biden will talk with Black Lives Matter activists and give some token concessions to blacks, but that’s not really the first thing on his table, he’s more interested in carrying out what the Bilderbergers, Council on Foreign Relations, and the Rockefeller Foundation tell him to do. Defund the police? Clearly not, maybe at most it’ll happen at the behest of some city councils aggressively pushed to do it by activists, but just look how that turned out in Minneapolis (crime rates soared and tons of police resigned in protest and now they want more funding for the police, gee whowuddathunk). It’ll never happen federally, the US government doesn’t want to defund the police, in fact they have a vested interest in militarizing the police, in fact it even continued ramping up during the Obama administration.

But are they militarizing the police because they’re racist? Militarization of the police clearly is a threat to the civil rights of ALL Americans, not just blacks, but look at what you’ve done, now the question of police reform has become strictly about racial politics, now blacks and whites won’t unite about something it’s in both of their vested rights to look at.

So what do you want now? Even more affirmative action? Great, now under-qualified minorities get a leg up over over-qualified whites, especially in already competitive fields like grad school admissions, for instance, that it’s likely to be middle-class and upper-class blacks getting into anyway, thus not actually doing anything for crack babies in the inner city and making the white male who’s outright told “Don’t even bother trying to become a professor if you’re not a minority or woman today, it’s too competitive for everyone and they’ll get the leg up over you even though you’re a second-generation European immigrant whose parents came in poverty and never even contributed to slavery at all”. Reparations for blacks? At the expense of the middle class, undoubtedly, you’re deluded if you think the 1% is going to pay for it all out of the goodness of your heart. Good game, you Cloward-Piven strategied the nation, now we’re ALL equally poor under the elite 1% we were supposed to be fighting.

I’m not even denying there’s systemic racism and that it’s a huge problem. I’m denying that you guys have clear policy goals or can into realpolitik, and denying that the elite truly has your or my best interests at heart. Now we’re here ineffectually arguing about racism, but in the meantime everyone has forgotten about the PATRIOT Act and NSA surveillance. I mean, gee, those sound kinda bad but I have nothing to hide anyway, right?

[Anonymous No.17097706]

>>17094455
Depression, and anxiety is nothing new nor is it more widespread than before. We're just talking about our mental states and feelings more openly these days. It use to be if you had a problem like that you told nobody, didn't get help, you just kept it hidden behind closed doors and faked your life.

[Anonymous No.17097730]

>>17097705
challenging the power structures and culture
direct action
pushing laws to address the racial disparities such as yes affirmative action or welfare. white people will still be able to get jobs and representation, the playing field will just be equal and to account for past inequities
joe biden wont fix everything, but democrats are lesser of 2 evils. they are at least willing to have the conversation. republicans want feds to throw blm in vans.
police reform and the unique history of racist policing of black americans are crucial to address. the systemic rot of the police system and entrenched racial bias need reform. stricter testing, demilitarize, spend more on poverty reduction programs, challenge the culture of white supremacy, push for full liberation, community based policing, less harassing and targeting non violent, less racial profiling, cut the budget and redirect to welfare programs that benefit poor people including many black americans kept
reparations will be tough to achieve, but packages can be put on the table. redirect some spending away from police and military towards broad welfare for and black specific programs in addition. we paid reparations to japanese camp victims, and black people have suffered longer and worse
artifiically poor by the legacy of racism , these are concrete proposals

[Anonymous No.17097754]

>>17097705
(2/2)
No, having more black representations in TV shows is more important, as well as calling out white males for white fragility when they give their hot takes about how, “Uhhh, I don’t know guys, definitely black lives DO matter but is all the rioting and looting and blind anti-cop hatred really necessary?” Now you can’t talk about black culture itself in anything but the most laudatory of terms, so when a black thug shoots a cop or loots a store it’s not because they have any agency in it, they’re victims of society and that’s how they express their frustration, and why do you care more about stores than black bodies shot by cops? Uhhh racist much? Ok, there may have been SOME small locally-owned stores totally demolished and looted by the riots and the store-owner’s dreams crushed in already trying times with the pandemic lockdowns, their insurance companies barely reimbursing them, but why are you focusing on them? Why are you even bringing up them? It’s clearly because you have anti-black sentiment, you can’t say there’s any flaws in modern black culture and the expansion of the welfare state, Thomas Sowell is just an old Uncle Tom, there’s no such thing as crab-in-a-bucket-mentality at all, inner city black kids never bully their studious peers for “acting white and reading too many books” and wanting to better themselves.

And as Bernie Sanders says, “When you’re white, you don’t know what it’s like to be living in a ghetto. You don’t know what it’s like to be poor.” And now wealth inequality has been turned into a racial problem and your movement defanged, now it’s just aimless grievances and resentments which set people against each other and have you ineffectually thought policing others, good game.

[Anonymous No.17097756]

>>17097730
>Joe Biden is lesser of 2 evils
lol they got you trapped in the capitalist game false dichotomy using identity politics as the carrot

[Anonymous No.17097764]

>>17094692
Think city states

[Anonymous No.17097780]

>>17097730
>challenging the power structures and culture
vague
>direct action
vague. what is this besides protests/riots?
>affirmative action and welfare
already exists
>playing field will be equal
but we already have these programs and you say its still not equal. how do we make it equal? force?
>biden, lesser of 2 evils, willing to listen, republicans in vans
portland police tear gassed protesters because of the democrat mayor's choice before trump's feds even showed up. democrats dont like the radicals either. they just entertain it rhetorically to get your votes
>police reform
can be addressed decoupled from race
>entrenched racial bias
such as?
>stricter testing, demilitarize, poverty reduction
ok
>culture of white supremacy
what is this? how will you change this
>full liberation
vague
>community based policing
vague. what is this?
>less profiling
ok
>cut budget for welfare
why is race necessary for this?
>reparations
how will you achieve this?

[Anonymous No.17097781]

>>17097730
You are either a teenager or retarded.

[Anonymous No.17097797]

>>17097730
thread ruined

[Anonymous No.17097807]

>>17094609
There must be an alternative. The idea is liberalism is the ultimate endpoint of government that guarantees maximum possible freedom, prosperity, peace, etc but if this proven not to be true there must exists something more. Perhaps not yet to be found.

[Anonymous No.17097811]

yep turns out basically letting people do whatever they want isn't such a good idea after all
yep...

[Anonymous No.17097845]

>>17094926
I think those lists of books/films that Obama professes to like are more about cultivating a certain image of him that a real reflection of his tastes, which is probably tom of finland pictures

[Anonymous No.17097859]

>>17097730
> challenging the power structures and culture
Vague and meaningless
>direct action
vague and meaningless
> challenge the culture of white supremacy, push for full liberation
vague and meaningless
>affirmative action or welfare. white people will still be able to get jobs and representation, the playing field will just be equal and to account for past inequities
> cut the budget and redirect to welfare programs that benefit poor people including many black americans kept
reparations will be tough to achieve, but packages can be put on the table.
> we paid reparations to japanese camp victims, and black people have suffered longer and worse
artifiically poor by the legacy of racism , these are concrete proposals
Naively expanding the welfare state fosters the creation of a permanent underclass, and it will come at the expense of the middle-class, not “the 1%”. Look into Cloward-Piven strategies. I’m not saying “abolish welfare,” we clearly need a social safety net, but expanding the welfare state can easily be co-opted for more unsavory ends. The logistics and immediate applicability of reimbursing all Japanese internment camp victims don’t scale to doing the same for all African-Americans. I’m not even putting it off the table, but it’s a political and economic clusterfuck. Will rich blacks and comfy middle-class black families who have been rich or middle-class for a few generations get it just the same as poor inner city blacks will? And this won’t cause racial tensions at all for poor communities of other races (including whites) who can face How much reparations exactly? A one-time payment like the Japanese internment camp victims (who were over 100k, compared to 47.8 million African Americans today)? How much? Or should it be monthly payments?

I won’t even argue about affirmative action since it’s already entrenched in the US and it’s not going away anytime soon, it’s indeed a perfect example of one of the band-aids over a gaping, violently bleeding wound the elite hands out to us to make it seem like they’re doing something.
> less harassing and targeting non violent, less racial profiling
100% for these. Drug laws also need a big reform
>demilitarize
Also for this, but it’s not happening just because black activists clamor for it, the elite have had a vested interest in militarizing the police for decades now and that’s the way it’s going to go, good way to keep the serfs in line in case a violent rebellion breaks out.
>community-based policing
Also a good idea but hard to scale for huge cities and also harder today with cops genuinely feeling under attack (and rightly so) (“ACAB”) and a radical minority who WANT them to feel under attack.

[Anonymous No.17097877]

>>17097730 #
> challenging the power structures and culture
Vague and meaningless
>direct action
vague and meaningless
> challenge the culture of white supremacy, push for full liberation
vague and meaningless
>affirmative action or welfare. white people will still be able to get jobs and representation, the playing field will just be equal and to account for past inequities
> cut the budget and redirect to welfare programs that benefit poor people including many black americans kept reparations will be tough to achieve, but packages can be put on the table.
>we paid reparations to japanese camp victims, and black people have suffered longer and worse
artifiically poor by the legacy of racism , these are concrete proposals
Naively expanding the welfare state fosters the creation of a permanent underclass, and it will come at the expense of the middle-class, not “the 1%”. Look into Cloward-Piven strategies. I’m not saying “abolish welfare,” we clearly need a social safety net, but expanding the welfare state can easily be co-opted for more unsavory ends. The logistics and immediate applicability of reimbursing all Japanese internment camp victims don’t scale to doing the same for all African-Americans. I’m not even putting it off the table, but it’s a political and economic clusterfuck. Will rich blacks and comfy middle-class black families who have been rich or middle-class for a few generations get it just the same as poor inner city blacks will? And this won’t cause racial tensions at all for poor communities of other races (including whites) who can face the same problems inner city blacks do (only it’s not as publicized)? How much reparations exactly? A one-time payment like the Japanese internment camp victims (who were only over 100k, compared to 47.8 million African Americans today)? How much? Or should it be monthly payments?

I won’t even argue about affirmative action since it’s already entrenched in the US and it’s not going away anytime soon, it’s indeed a perfect example of one of the band-aids over a gaping, violently bleeding wound the elite hands out to us to make it seem like they’re doing something.
> less harassing and targeting non violent, less racial profiling
100% for these. Drug laws also need a big reform
>demilitarize
Also for this, but it’s not happening just because black activists clamor for it, the elite have had a vested interest in militarizing the police for decades now and that’s the way it’s going to go, good way to keep the serfs in line in case a violent rebellion breaks out, neither Democrats nor Republicans will seriously face this issue except for a few lukewarm reforms at best.
>community-based policing
Also a good idea but hard to scale for huge cities and also harder today with cops genuinely feeling under attack (and rightly so) (“ACAB”) and a radical minority who WANT them to feel under attack.

[Anonymous No.17097916]

>'what we have in store' is just a bunch of shit that already happened
End of History thinking is nihilist dribble

[Anonymous No.17097970]

>>17097797
Yes, the blm debate is kind of autistic but it does sort of relate to the thread question in a sense. The BLM a symptom of the economic breakdown and inadequacies of American (or now EU with mass immigration) style liberalism to address these problems. The multiculturalism combined with liberalism will not be able to sustain itself if the economy cannot hold up.

The identity politics and tribalist divides in America or Europe will be extremely hard to reconcile as many identities of all types are based around hatred or resentment for another group due to some perceived historical slight or victim complex. The animosity, tensions, factionalism, and great divide of Americans is held together by the fragile strings of economic success and liberal democracy promoting individualism. The market is the great unifier of the people, the consumer culture and work culture. This makes it so that any violent conflicts or radicalism are unappealing in favor of the status quo when times are comfortable. But if the economic success cannot maintain itself and the proles do not maintain a sufficient standard of living they are accustomed to (or feel a sense of deprivation, desperation, or decline of economic status) they will lash out at one another based on differences due to the inherent tribalism of human nature.

The seething hatred and contempt for other factions underneath the surface of American life is apparent. The multiculturalism and factionalism creates a Balkanesque power keg ready to blow when they notice the American dollar doesnt get you as far as it once did, when their kids are sucking dick to pay $100k school debts and housing costs half a mil in the big city with jobs (since all the rural jobs got outsourced or destroyed, of course). The fragile glue is coming apart with the effect of internet echo chambers, emphasis on critical racial theory/intersectionality in academic thought, hyperpartisanship, social media spreading propaganda reinforcing these divisions, the economic decline, increased distrust in government/institutions pushing neoliberal globalist consensus, and the death of communism rendering the alternative unthinkable.

Resources will become limited in times of economic downturn and if there are many stratified groups with animosity towards each other defined by their differences rather than unity, they will be in conflict over those limited resources. The result will be like any other fight for resources between animals in nature. They will look out for their group, their pack, their tribe, their family and secure what they can. If there is little, they will get hungrier, desperate, vicious. Multiply that effect by the many ideological and identity groups in the US with the Covid crisis, recession, post-Fordism, globalization, debt economy making material conditions worse. People hate each other more than they hate the elites or capitalists, because they have mastered out how to exploit that tribal instinct.

[Anonymous No.17097972]

>>17094609
Socialism with Chinese characteristics

[Anonymous No.17098657]

As long as the current world order exists, the specters of fascism and communism will continue to haunt us, for their defeat is the founding myth of modernity. And if things become too unbearable, they will rise from their graves.
But this time, we won't make the mistake twice.
We will not sleep, we will not rest, until every last Jew has been gassed, and every bourgeois capitalist has been sent to a gulag.

[Sage No.17098660]

> /his/

[Anonymous No.17098674]

>>17094650
Migration doesn't solve any problem in your country or origin. It only aggravates it.

The same applies for your destination, if the migrant has no higher education.