The fantasy genre is fucked because science fiction fags and star wars

[Anonymous No.17042784]

The fantasy genre in it's purest form are the old folktales and myths, when there were no rules. Just old people making up shit and younger folk iterating on it.
Then came people like George MacDonald and
C. S. Lewis and asked what if there is more to this?
Then Tolkien happened and the fucking nerds decided that fantasy must be about detail and deeplore, you can't have a fantasy story without a fully realized world with trivia about every fucking name or event mentioned.
AND THEN fucking star wars happened which came with the layman not knowing the difference between fantasy and science fiction. And there came another wave of "everything needs to be explained to make a believable world for this story". To help this there was some retard saying "after a certain point technology becomes so advanced it's basically magic." so people can feel to be justified mixing them up, even though they are about different tropes and themes.
So we are at that point when science fiction writers like George R.R.Martin and Shad M. Brooks preach about fantasy while their fundamental understating of the genre is flawed.

If you look at today's landscape of the fantasy genre it's all "one day I woke up in a different world" or just another Tolkien wannabe epic with overexplaining everything. Basically science fiction writers in disguise although most of them probably don't know themselves any better.

Fantasy should go back to its roots, to it's purest form and rebuild what it's all about.

[Anonymous No.17042850]

>>17042784
>star wars
and marvel
its all about muh happy ends and super sajajin mcs
fuck american "culture"

[Anonymous No.17042876]

>>17042784
I used to think like that. Then I learned about Appendix N. Jeffro Johnson has a good book about it. Now I like Dying Earth Science-fantasy better than Epic fantasy. It's like choosing Arneson over Gygax. If you have read Lord Dunsany, I'm not sure what else to recommend. The superstitions and ignorance that created fairy tales as folk lore are largely absent from the world. Sadly, I find RPG fiction universally unreadable-like R.A. Salvatore.

Try Robert E. Howard, its not magic heavy and its all pretty readable. The audiobooks are likely public domain.

[Anonymous No.17042900]

folklore and mythology started out as oral history and was a way to explain the world and the history of a people through stories passed down from person to person, it was a record and tied a people together, just look at the supremacy of the cult of olympus in greece and the incorporation of pre-hellenic gods into the parthenon with the hellenic zues as it's leader that tells the story of the hellenic conquest of Greece and this is just one example of the socio-political use of folklore to explain pass on history. This use is defunct now as we have other media that fullfills this, plus fantasy and science fiction is entirely a different thing you based cuck

[Anonymous No.17043029]

>>17042876
>Now I like Dying Earth Science-fantasy better than Epic fantasy
That's because the modern "wild west" is wondering about what would be like living in a post apocalyptic world.

It was america and the wild west, a new unexplored worlds with hidden treasues. Then people explored it and they realized there is no golden city.
Then it was space and far away planets and people wondering if we are alone in our solar system. Then they realized that it's mostly emptiness.
So today's gig is a world that's not-so far away in a near future where everything is fucked and society collapsed. That's what gets going the imagination of today's people.

Fantasy isn't just epic fantasy and that's the point that most people are missing desu

[Anonymous No.17043053]

Ignore every fantasy work after 1943 and read this.

[Anonymous No.17043097]

>>17043029
I agree. The near future Doomer fantasy allows people to comment on our current calamity, but in retrospect. I think Weird Western is picking up for the reasons you mentioned, and steam punk.

>>17043053
Depressing and slow. Does it ever git gud? Same for the Blade Itself.

[Anonymous No.17043243]

>>17043029
>>17043097

The idea of being wandering around and being clueless is completely antithetical to the Christian foundation of "classical" fantasy set up by Novalis, George MacDonald, Lord Dunsany, Tolkien, and the rest of The Inklings.

Hell, the idea of Doomer fantasy sounds a bit odd since the fantasy genre was birthed out of post-Kantian philosophy and early German Romanticism.

Unless the new authors take notes from books like Tripmaster Monkey, which shows a depressed and pissed off Californian playwriter coming to terms with his mystical Chinese heritage, I can't picture Doomer fantasy being any more better than the modern stuff we have now.

However, I will applaud a doomer fantasy book if it's honest and does not try to be some carbon copy of Terry Brooks or a DnD campaign.

[Anonymous No.17043254]

>>17042784
>Fantasy should go back to its roots, to it's purest form and rebuild what it's all about.
You say what it needs to do, you complain about the writers and the influences, you loathe and seethe at everything new. Maybe you're right.
If you are right, then prove it. Go write a true to form fantasy instead of the bullshit we have to day?

[Anonymous No.17043265]

>>17042784
Sounds like you've got some writing to do, faggot

[Anonymous No.17043300]

>>17042784
>The fantasy genre in it's purest form are the old folktales and myths, when there were no rules. Just old people making up shit and younger folk iterating on it.

You don't understand fairy tales or myths if you just thought they were made for shits and giggles.

Myths and fairy tales were made with a divine purpose, and people like CS Lewis and Tolkien knew this. Go look up their books on the subject.

[Anonymous No.17043382]

>>17042876
Happy that you have discovered a genre you enjoy, Anon.
But stay away from anything vox day related for your own sake. It's mega cringe and he is a shitty pied Piper conman

[Anonymous No.17043404]

the difference between science fiction and fantasy was never meaningful

[Anonymous No.17043455]

>>17042784
You need to read more fantasy before having opinions about the genre

[Anonymous No.17043483]

>>17042784
Saying that myths and folk tales are fantasy is at least as disingenuous as saying Alice in Wonderland is an isekai

[Anonymous No.17043550]

> saves the fantasy genre
> burns the genre to the fucking ground
read bakker anon

[Anonymous No.17043607]

>>17043382
I hate Vox Day. A pox upon his house. Good looking out.

[Anonymous No.17043722]

Is there any incentive to read fantasy/scifi besides LOTR and Dune?
Everything seems pale in comparison.

[Anonymous No.17043740]

>>17043722
Jack Vance, The Dying Earth
Michael Moorcock, Eternal Champion

[Anonymous No.17043875]

>>17043404
Fantasy is a marketing ploy imo

[Anonymous No.17043906]

>>17043740
Ty for the recs. Took a look at the Michael Moorcock book covers, and holy fuck they are beautiful, getting a book of the new sun feel which I enjoyed, definitely gonna read some of his works. Kinda sad that new publishers go with awful drawn computer art instead of hand draw shit like this. I know it's dumb to judge a book by its cover, but I reckon that in fantasy good covers actually are helpful to get a feel about the aesthetic of the world.

[Anonymous No.17044115]

>>17043722
Book of the New Sun
Hyperion
Earthsea

[Anonymous No.17044187]

>>17042784
My god fantasy is so fucked, I wish I could write.

[Anonymous No.17044311]

>>17042784
1. Dune
2. Chronicles of Amber
>So we are at that point when science fiction writers like George R.R.Martin and Shad M. Brooks preach about fantasy while their fundamental understating of the genre is flawed.
3. The Wheel of TIme

[Anonymous No.17044537]

>>17042784
Let the genre die and rise from the ashes.

[Anonymous No.17046076]

>>17044537
This

[Anonymous No.17047532]

>>17042784
>> literally modern art is shit, look at this landscape

[Anonymous No.17047716]

>>17042784
I think what the genre needs is to rediscover poetry. No other genre has a stronger affinity with it, and yet it is rarely used, and even more rarely used properly. Fantasy isn't meant to be written in descriptive, bland fucking prose only, its authors need to learn to add some colour to their writing.

[Anonymous No.17048009]

>>17043404
It's because both ended up, in their popular, current versions, abusing similar tropes:
> MC is secretly the son/relative of this or that important person, most often a prime enemy
> Prophecies that include a chosen one and the restoration of an earlier, better state of things
> An epic last battle is how the plot resolves itself
> the MC is a young nobody that ends up gifted with unique or long lost powers that make him special
> Magic, higher levels of knowledge, futuristic science all end up manifesting in mostly one thing: super weapons/powers that give way to super heroes tier battles
> Lost knowledge, artifacts, and magic as a shallow way to hype with secret and mystery an otherwise rather bland universe
> Give a fake semblance of life to the world by populating it with alien/magical races that all boil down to: humanoid with a gimmick or aberration with a human side
> etc...

You'll notice that all things above can be applied to Star wars, for example, while also being part of the same code fantasy writers have been using for decades to structure their stories.

[Anonymous No.17048182]

>>17047716
This is why George MacDonald was so good at it. He included verse copiously.

[Anonymous No.17048187]

>>17048182
>George MacDonald
Didnt know the guy, sounds based. Thanks anon.

[Anonymous No.17048979]

>>17042784
>AND THEN fucking star wars happened which came with the layman not knowing the difference between fantasy and science fiction
edgar rice burroughs would like a word with you. really it's painfully apparent how little you know about the genre at large.

[Anonymous No.17050344]

>>17043550
where do I start?

[Anonymous No.17050855]

>>17042876
namedropping doesnt work here, just go back

[Anonymous No.17050857]

>>17043029
yes atheism is a mistake

[Anon123 No.17051343]

>>17042784

I'm just going to add my thoughts here on what I believe seriously needs to be addressed in the fantasy/sci-fi genre. This is going to be quite the rant.

We just need to get rid of the Tumblr SJWs, Baizuos, Hollywood elitists, and Marvel/Disney libtards from fucking over the genre like they've been doing in the past decade. Creating good ART should be the goal of every author and artist out there, not retarded political agendas and identity politics.

I don't give a shit about minority groups and their representation but I'm not going to stop anyone from representing them there, they really ought to have their readers in mind rather than making some sanctimonious statement about how "inclusive" and "woke" they are. If fantasy is going to have some AAA stories like how it once did, you'd best get rid of all the REAL WORLD politics and just stick to the art.

Fuck real-world politics.

[Anonymous No.17051391]

>>17042784
Sneed

[Anonymous No.17051394]

>>17051343
Couldnt have said it better

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17051400]

I have mixed feelings.

I agree with the fairy tale and mythology origin of fantasy, I agree with the Lewis and Macdonald take, but I think Tolkien’s style has value, I don’t think it should be what literally defines every piece of fantasy in the market but I’m not against intense world building and lore, it can compliment the otherworldly ethereal nature of the work if done properly.

And I even agree people far often too much confuse scifi for fantasy, but here is where I divide. I think there’s a unique element because of all of these changes to fantasy and the fantasy aesthetic, there is something there that’s truly ethereal and spiritually powerful. I think it’s best found in that post Tolkien fiction which tries to take it and reinvent it into a new combination.

So while I genuinely consider Dunsany my favorite fantasy writer, I think the lore and world of something like an elder scrolls (all its media being considered ) is a fantastic and interesting world which genuinely changes the material even if still based in part on Tolkien-like races and so forth.

I think all that needs to happen is a rejection of Tolkien as the macro-paradigm and a re-connection to fairy tales, fairy lore, world religion and mythology.

Something I find difficult is a fusion of poetry with a modern generic fantasy aesthetic, I’ve sought it much but I never find writers who pull it off. (Not older fantasy, example clark Ashton smith or aforementioned Dunsany’s fantasy poetry is great) but I think it’s because this modern fantasy genre is still so young that it’s hard for them to locate the aesthetic, the spiritual and ideal core and give you a quintessence of it, which is why I find there isn’t much good modern fantasy based poetry.

I think given a few hundred years fantasy will develop into a very beautiful genre, are its roots more lovely? Yes but we’re currently in the decadent phase of this genre, it just needs a re-vitalization.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17051415]

>>17047716

100% fantasy should be such an intensification of the ethereal/imaginative and romantic qualities that it becomes a literal world of imaginative colorful beauty.

[Anonymous No.17052684]

The Dread Empire short stories are fun.

[Anonymous No.17052796]

>>17042784
folktales and myths are autistic garbage.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17052804]

>>17052796

Name some of your favorite authors and favorite books

[Anonymous No.17052834]

>>17052804
>the gall of this fucking tripfag to think he has anything to contribute by replying to me
I would definitely murder you where you stood if I met you face to face.

[Anonymous No.17052890]

>>17051343
>We just need to get rid of the Tumblr SJWs, Baizuos, Hollywood elitists, and Marvel/Disney libtards from fucking over the genre like they've been doing in the past decade. Creating good ART should be the goal of every author and artist out there, not retarded political agendas and identity politics.
>I don't give a shit about minority groups and their representation but I'm not going to stop anyone from representing them there, they really ought to have their readers in mind rather than making some sanctimonious statement about how "inclusive" and "woke" they are. If fantasy is going to have some AAA stories like how it once did, you'd best get rid of all the REAL WORLD politics and just stick to the art.
This post exudes midwittery and naivety. You're likely 30 years old, watch South Park, and think you're much smarter than you really are.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17052904]

>>17052834

Cut the edge, it isn’t impressive and is hardly cute. name some books

[Anonymous No.17052913]

>>17052904
Fucking die you worthless Redditor manchild.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17052931]

>>17052913

Doesn’t work, I’ve never used Reddit and in my culture we buy women for marriage, Attacking masculinity and adulthood won’t work.

Now name some books or actually try to write something offensive properly you newfag filth.

[Anonymous No.17052935]

>>17051343
>he thinks fantasy isn't reactionary therefore political
>in his limited scope fantasy has "only" recently started to decay (i.e. past his childhood)

[Anonymous No.17052965]

>>17052931
>masculinity
>attention whores on /lit/ threads with a trip
>calls people newfag

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17052981]

>>17052965

Eh it’s honestly so I can keep track of discussions and save recommendations, but yes I’ll call stuff as basic as “bro I’d kill you if I saw you irl” as newfag tier, at minimum it has genuine Reddit energy.

In all of those I’ve yet to hear any books or authors found preferable.

[Anonymous No.17053017]

>>17042784
I used to write some kind of mythical fantasy and I've concluded those times are over. Make a serial format story where your lore is vague, the characters are not stereotypes and everymen or magic isn't fully fleshed out and you will see your audience try to deconstruct these things in real time, not in a nice way where they're engaging with the work, but like they're judges in a talent show and without a clearly laid out methodology they get nervous because they don't have all the information. There's a whole two generations of people right now who feel distressed by what used to be a feeling of wonder or mystery, and those are the people you're supposed to sell fantasy to. It's over.

[Anonymous No.17053031]

>>17052981
God shut the fuck up you pathetic narcissist, I can tell by the way you type alone that you think exorbitantly high of yourself. Your ilk are all a cancer to this board.

[Anonymous No.17053033]

Stories in general really do have a bad habit of feeling like they need to explain EVERYTHING these days. It causes a lot of the magic to die and makes things way too interconnected.

Some of the most memorable characters or events are the ones that aren't explained and let people speculate about them. It makes the world feel bigger.

[Anonymous No.17053048]

>>17053033
Chicken and egg situation, it's because of complete lack of creativity and imagination, and that's due to information overload, but I don't know which one came first. Either way it was the internet. Instant everything has fucked our reward centers and that includes our sense of discovery.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17053151]

>>17053031

Why are you getting mad at a stranger on the internet?

[Anonymous No.17053159]

>>17053033
The problem with over-explaining is that it's done too early in the story and in a very self-indulgent way, i.e. lengthy monologues or exposition from the narrator, which indicates the author just wanted to tell you about the cool history of this land or his magic system or whatever it is that he's dumping on you. Keeping that kind of information close to the chest, and only giving out tidbits to whet the imagination, makes fantasy a lot more engaging to read. That's ultimately what fantasy is about: imagination. You do a better job of that by being mysterious. You do need some concrete info so they have something to form expectations on, but if you show too much of your hand early on people lose interest.

[Anonymous No.17053195]

>>17053048
>>17053159
Fun fact, people with imagination and creativity dont read fantasy, they read books about the real world and find that interesting.

Why anyone would find the mystical land of lala dildo in the ass, more interesting then the adventures of a group of young artists in 1860's Paris or the life of a race car driver in 1920's Chicago is beyond me.

The real world in a hundred times richer, complicated, personal and detailed then any fantasy world, so why the heck read about it?

[Anonymous No.17053210]

>>17053195
>Fun fact, people with imagination and creativity dont read fantasy
>they read books about the real world and find that interesting.
Reading fantasy as a kid has given me curiosity for the real world, and eventually got me to read plenty of nonfiction to inform my fiction. This opinion is absurd and there is not a shred of evidence to support it.

[Anonymous No.17053231]

>>17053210
>Reading fantasy as a kid has given me curiosity for the real world, and eventually got me to read plenty of nonfiction to inform my fiction.
I doubt that, the majority of people who are into fantasy, stay squarly within that adolecent realm and never seriously read any other kind of fiction or explore the real world.

You got into serious literature, because you developed as a human being, not because fantasy gave you a jump start.

Fantasy literature is for the inhuman, for people who are not quite human, so they need a simpler, more dualistic, other world, which is less complicated and can be more easily understood.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17053297]

>>17053195

>>17053195
>people with imagination and creativity dont read fantasy

Except for all of the painters, poets, and writers who do fantasy based work you mean?

Do you think Borges, lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith and many others aren’t imaginative?

>Why anyone would find the mystical land of lala dildo in the ass, more interesting then the adventures of a group of young artists in 1860's Paris


Since fantasy and fables can take place in 1860’s Paris or a hundred different worlds based entirely on your own imagination and ontology, you’re free to do anything you can with realism within fantasy except in fantasy you can go even more “fantastical” and amplify it or not if you desire.

>or the life of a race car driver in 1920's Chicago is beyond me.

How is that particularly imaginative? What’s so ethereal about the life of some guy who races cars? Can there be ethereal aspects in how it’s written, sure but how is this in any way more creative than a well crafted older fantasy story?

>The real world in a hundred times richer,

Richer in what sense?

>complicated

Complexity doesn’t mean good but you have very complex stories in fantasy ranging from metaphysical to personal dramas.


>personal

Personal/internal focused isn’t a value it’s a question of taste, much of the western canon is externality/outside based with almost no interior.

>and detailed then any fantasy world

Not really, depends on the specific author and the specific work

>so why the heck read about it?

People can have different taste, ya know that right?

[Anonymous No.17053338]

Imagine if someone wrote an epic poem, imagine.

[Anonymous No.17053343]

>>17043243
Kantbot your essay sucks, authors were already self-consciously writing fantasy in the 16th century

[Anonymous No.17053746]

>>17053151
Where are you from Frat, rural LatAm?

[Anonymous No.17053759]

>>17053338
Isn't Georgian Vepkhistkaosani and some similar styled Persian stuff technically epic poem. Btw Vepkhistkaosani was pretty good.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17054106]

>>17053746

New York City, I’m a Gypsy, I’ve posted before about it but I don’t want to take up the thread with my own junk.

[Anonymous No.17054134]

fantasy is all the same now. Some kind of war. Houses vs houses or empires vs empires.

that's one of the reasons why I loved Earth's Children. Any similar?

[Anonymous No.17054176]

>>17052890
t. Midwit

[Anonymous No.17054307]

>>17043906
It’s not dying earth but I really recommend The Wandering Unicorn. It has hardly anything to do with a Unicorn. It’s Borges meets Ivanhoe, kind of a Modernist take on fairytales. It takes place during the Crusades and it’s about the Knights Templar

It’s really unique, kind of represents an interesting departure fantasy could have taken where the narrative style of older myths and legends was preserved and updated instead of just being used as thin veneer for yet another D&Dtier soap opera

[Anonymous No.17054451]

>>17053297
>Do you think Borges, lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith and many others aren’t imaginative?
No, not really, imagination applies to the real world, of social interactions and of the environment.

>“fantastical” and amplify it or not if you desire.
That makes it less fantastical, because the total amount of meaning and imagination becomes less the more seperated it gets from reality.

>What’s so ethereal about the life of some guy who races cars?
Wow, if you have to ask that, you just dont understand. Not everyone has a simple and one dimensional view of the world.

The automobil and the sport of racing, has depth and meaning to it. Fantasy does not.


>Richer in what sense?
AHAHAHAHA!! Never mind. yeah, you are a one dimensional autist, who can only understand something because its simple and dualistic. Thats why you like fantasy.

Yeah, you are beyond help.

[Anonymous No.17054476]

>>17053231
Well you can doubt my own experience and the time I have spent reading nonfiction and discovering about the real world, but it's not like people who don't read fantasy are inherently more curious. I can see your point that people who get addicted to escapism will usually feed into that escapism, but that's not a problem inherent to fantasy. Most people escape through social media, chasing fashion, celebrities, sports, you name it. On the other hand I have read about things like historical fashion, industry, architecture exclusively to inform my own work.
It seems like you have a chip on your shoulder and your argument doesn't have any real substance.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17054528]

>>17054451
>No, not really, imagination applies to the real world, of social interactions and of the environment.

>
im·ag·i·na·tion
/iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.
"she'd never been blessed with a vivid imagination"
Similar:
imaginative faculty
creative power
fancy
mind's eye
interest
fascination
attention
passion
curiosity
preoccupation
the ability of the mind to be creative or resourceful.
"technology gives workers the chance to use their imagination"

Nah.

> That makes it less fantastical, because the total amount of meaning and imagination becomes less the more seperated it gets from reality.

According to what universal law? Why should I believe the more realism= the more imagination ? That doesn’t make sense with what the term means nor how poets like Keats define ethereal or various aesthetic theories nor can I see it practically, how’s gritty realism more imaginative than say the faerie queene or Ovid? Or if it’s just modern fantasy hows it more imagination than smith or Dunsany?

> The automobil and the sport of racing, has depth and meaning to it

Depth meaning what? It certainly doesn’t have the depth of hardcore metaphysics which you can apply fully in fantasy and any depth it has can be implanted into a fantastical work. And “meaning” meaning what? As in relating to your daily life? What meaning are you looking for?

and what help? It’s a question about what’s enjoyable, you claimed there’s more imagination in the more realistic a work is, I cannot see how this is the case considering mythology, religious lit and fantasy through the ages.

Eh I get it’s really just a shitpost for you Anon, but it’s just illogical, the more realism I see, to me I see less and less imagination, you can argue realism requires much more understanding of reality and social dynamics, hell you could even argue it requires more technical skill, but You certainly can not argue they are more imaginative.

[Anonymous No.17054817]

>>17053231
>Fantasy literature is for the inhuman, for people who are not quite human, so they need a simpler, more dualistic, other world, which is less complicated and can be more easily understood.
What literature wouldn't this apply to? Anything written is reduced and simplified relative to what is unwritten.