/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16952479]

>desire is suffering. Let go.
Sounds neat but i dont live in indian fucking jungle or tibet or some vietnamese monastery.

I live in middle of europe. What the fuck is there to do all day with no ambitiouns, dreams, goals, motives aka attachements??? There is only so much you can hike in nature and follow your breath?

[Anonymous No.16952512]

>>16952479
You literally cannot do that unless you are a monk and laypeople come to feed you to get Buddha points. It's all a fucking scam.
Imagine I told you that in order to go to Heaven you have to collect 1 billion red stones of the exact size. It's probably doable, there are surely those stones around the Earth. But you will never be able to do it. So at the same time I tell you that I can provide a service that automatically gives you, say, 1000 stones for something a little less harder than directly fetching the stones. Then you realize it's way too fucking hard and I offer to give you 10000 stones for a few shekels every week. Voilà that's institutionalized religion.

[Anonymous No.16952529]

>>16952479
you have much more to do than pajeet in the woods because you have more outlets than desire than humans have ever had before, he had it easy in comparison

[Anonymous No.16952544]

>>16952479
Idly masturbate.

[Anonymous No.16952553]

>>16952479
>What the fuck is there to do all day with no ambitiouns, dreams, goals, motives aka attachements???
You can pursue all of those things, so long as you maintain a detached attitude. It will just be very difficult.
Also, you can meditate.
>>16952512
Cope

[Anonymous No.16952561]

>>16952479
You live at the single point in all of human history, where you have never had it easier, or needed the least effort to sustain your life.
You are being lazy and intentionally stupid.

[Anonymous No.16952570]

>>16952544
This, like a true aryan

[Anonymous No.16952612]

>try to live the good life of a monk
>get fired from your job, alienated from everyone around you, have no means to pay off the debt you've accumulated just by existing, etc.
It is not possible to not be a slave if you live in industrial civilization.

[Anonymous No.16952655]

>>16952612
The monks in the Indian monastery depend entirely from the rest of society to bring them food. They literally exist as a spiritual service.

[Anonymous No.16952705]

>>16952655
Damn, at least Christian monks fulfill some sort of utility for the surrounding community.
>beermaking
>winemaking
>cheese making
>raising animals and bees
>copying manuscripts
>carpentry
>stoneworking
>gardening
Why are Christians so based bros?

[Anonymous No.16952765]

>>16952705
>Christian monks
I haven't seen a friar in 6 or 7 years and he was two smartphones in his tunic's pockets, not sure if they just live on taxpayer money but I doubt they brew anything.

[Anonymous No.16952776]

>>16952765
They obviously build phones in the Abbey...

[Jesus No.16952789]

>>16952479
unsatisfied desire is suffering. let go, satisfy yourself.

fixed all western and eastern stupid pederasts "guru". planet of morons.

[Anonymous No.16952800]

>>16952512
You do realize you can go to work and live an average life while not worshipping the world (but choosing God), right?

[Anonymous No.16952813]

>>16952561
Dishonest post. We are so comfortable with the things of this world in this time of plenty that it is actually more difficult to be a man of God.

[Anonymous No.16952816]

The Christian monastic tradition is better imo

[Anonymous No.16952831]

>>16952705
The Buddhist monastery in my area does things like that. They bake and sell rolls to raise money. And offer classes and things. I got some pretty sweet hand-made cups from them.

[Anonymous No.16952844]

>>16952776
>They obviously build phones in the Abbey...
But he didn't look Asian
>>16952800
Yes but all you can do is outsource your work to the clergy. This is actually something that happens with all religions. More and more of the required work to be "saved" or whatever is outsourced to the clergy. This is exactly why a clergy of sorts becomes established in the first place, and this is exactly why all popular religions become increasingly washed out with fewer and fewer obligations for the lays.

[Anonymous No.16952866]

>>16952479

So what do you actually want OP?

[Anonymous No.16952894]

>>16952816
Christian monasticism lacks the asceticism though. They had it during maybe the first 300 years with some of the desert fathers but the rigidity of Christianity can't really allow a bunch of monks going at it alone.

Christian monasteries are just religious frats.

[Anonymous No.16952898]

>>16952844
>Yes but all you can do is outsource your work to the clergy
Can you explain to me why you have a problem with the jobs the clergy is tasked with, in particular the Catholic clergy?

[Anonymous No.16952906]

>>16952894
Your picture shows that youre getting your information from youtube and not actually visiting monasteries.

[Anonymous No.16952924]

>>16952906

[Anonymous No.16952944]

>>16952479
What if I like living with its ups and downs tho?

[Anonymous No.16953006]

>>16952898
>in particular the Catholic clergy?
I did not single out the Catholic clergy, actually I was talking mainly about Buddhism.
>Can you explain to me why you have a problem with the jobs the clergy is tasked with
My issue is that religions usually gives you very clear goals about what you should do in order to be saved (I'll use this as shorthand for afterlife/nirvana/etc).
The ideas and practices are usually shared among all members of the creed, e.g. Jesus with his apostles, Buddha with his disciples, etc. much like a philosophical school whose members are all practicing the tenets of the core philosophy.
Over time, as the religion grows bigger and more people join in, comes the hypocritical turn where the "disciples" who are usually ascetic types simply because that's what you are supposed to do to follow the religion properly, unwittingly become tools of the religion as an institution. It probably happens overnight, when a disciple thinks that if he doesn't take on the duty of spreading the religion and preserving the lays' loyalty the religion will die off.
The apostles or bhikkus will then becomes a salvation-providing service to the lays because that's how you keep the temple standing. The lays are people who want to be saved but of course are too bothered with worldly things to follow the religion to a T. As civilization improves and society becomes more complex, these people will inevitably be less and less capable of following the religious tenets. Now if everyone in the religion died a virgin the religion wouldn't grow bigger, and it would die over time. So for the sake of preserving the discipline itself, the clergy can't escape their destiny of becoming a literal service to the lays. Their following religion to a T is no longer an exercise toward personal salvation, but simply a pedigree of sanctity so that when the lay spins the wheel or recites his Hail Mary he'll know he'll be saved for sure.
Technically religion dies whenever there's a contract between lays and clergy. In that moment it's no longer a practice but a system, and the same reversal that happened with the industrial system and humanity, who now gives priority to the system he meant to help himself and his community over these very things he established the system for.

[Anonymous No.16953030]

>>16952813
There is nothing dishonest about it.
It has never been easy. You want easy? Life is easy.
You want out? Get off your fat ass, and work for it. Strive for it, as if it actually meant something.
I fucking hate all you babies wanting to be spoonfed everything and crying about how hard and unfair shit is.
You're not special. If you want something, do something.

[Anonymous No.16953258]

>>16953006
I don't know about buddhism but that would be pretty inaccurate with regards to Catholicism.
>who are usually ascetic types simply because that's what you are supposed to do to follow the religion properly
As far as I know the family life is a vocation just as much as priesthood, and is also just as much a correct practice of the faith. A proper Catholic family would seem ascetic though to a random modern family that has no faith.
>As civilization improves and society becomes more complex, these people will inevitably be less and less capable of following the religious tenets.
If you believe that the religion is true then society moving along in a direction that pushes the religion out of people would not be an improvement. I do agree out society is going down the wrong path and dragging many people to hell. The clergy has always been the same though in terms of their roles in salvation, except now they're very much ignored by many people.
>who now gives priority to the system he meant to help himself and his community over these very things he established the system for.
We did not establish the system for ourselves but rather it was revealed to us and will indeed help us, but the system (God) is the priority, not our perceived needs.

But yeah, I can only speak somewhat competently about Catholicism. I don't know how buddhism works, so maybe you're right in that context. But with Catholicism the clergy and leity both have their place and role, its just not the same role.

>>16953030
>It has never been easy.
Yes.
>You want easy? Life is easy.
???
>You want out?
What do you mean by out lol? I want out of my evil and into God's love, yes.
>Strive for it, as if it actually meant something.
Yes.
>I fucking hate all you babies wanting to be spoonfed everything and crying about how hard and unfair shit is.
I literally just said now is not a relatively easy time to be holy, why are you strawmanning me, it is objective truth. That does not mean we are free of accountability, nor that we should be.

[Anonymous No.16953347]

>>16952479
>What the fuck is there to do all day with no ambitiouns, dreams, goals, motives aka attachements?
If you ask yourself this silly question, you'd quickly realize how stupid your question sounds. Buddhists have goals/ambitions/dreams/motivations and attachments. The point of buddhism is to redirect those things towards a better life and not be lead around by random passing desire like an uncivilized monkey.

The final end goal of reaching perfect thought/action is the a natural outcome once you've redirected your ambitions/goals/desires/attachments/dreams/etc.

Buddhism isn't asking you to "give up life/attachment/desires lmao" its asking you to redirect them towards meditation, helping others, reducing harm, paying more attention, reducing inane chatter, etc so that your body/mind understands what a proper set of behavior is like.

[Anonymous No.16953363]

>>16952655
I don't fully understand Buddhism so maybe someone can educate me.

In what way are monks helping their fellow men? Aren't they only benefiting themselves by living "The Way"?

What is the point of detaching yourself from the world if you are still a burden to the rest of the world? If they were serious they would meditate until they died of starvation - thus separating themselves of all earthly needs.

[Anonymous No.16953410]

>>16953258
>God's love
Then why are you talking about Buddhism? Go pray. Christcuckery is Buddhism for everyone. Go do what you want, and then repent, and pray, and WHAMMO it's all good, bro.
So why don't it feel right?
The point is. Life has never been easy. All religious texts give you advice. If you are a Christian, read Augustine, he was a Golden Boy, and he found Christ. Every SAVED person ever tells you how they were saved. And life on Earth has never been easy. If it's hard for you because it is hard not being lazy or indulging in pleasure, just go out into solitude.
>>16953363
>In what way are monks helping their fellow men? Aren't they only benefiting themselves by living "The Way"?
Monks don't "help" other people, as such, by receiving alms. The people who help the monks do a good deed. So they earn good karma, or goodness in Christian perspective, or they feel good helping others, who live a "holy" life.
In all of human history, most of the things you think about, have been a burden. Kings, priest, churches, great monuments, or achievements, all rest on the backs of people who work, all day, all life. And get nothing for it but drudgery, and the sense that they are part of something more.

[Anonymous No.16953476]

>>16953410
So it is mandatory to help the monks to attain super karma that will help you reach haven?

[Anonymous No.16953522]

>>16953363
when monks go on almsround, the people donating are making metta for their next life (good karma etc). he monks get to pursue nibbana, and the laypeople who choose the lay life ensure themselves a good rebirth next time round

[Anonymous No.16953525]

>>16953476
unless you are a monk, that's what gives you the most karma per post

[Anonymous No.16953540]

>>16952479
Letting go is necessarily giving into desire isn't it?

[Anonymous No.16953541]

>>16953410
>Then why are you talking about Buddhism?
I'm not.
>Go pray.
I should.
>Christcuckery is Buddhism for everyone.
No.
>Go do what you want, and then repent, and pray, and WHAMMO it's all good, bro.
>So why don't it feel right?
Because the way you're describing it isn't right. Oh look someone who insults Christianity has a 3rd grade understanding of it, surprise surprise.
>The point is. Life has never been easy.
That wasn't the point I responded to originally though. The point I responded to said life is easier than ever right now. Well, it isn't. If anything you should take your own advice.
>All religious texts give you advice.
Some right some wrong.
>If you are a Christian, read Augustine
Going to be done with Confessions soon, it is a very accurate account of man and a very revelatory read.
>Every SAVED person ever tells you how they were saved.
Some are right some are wrong.
>And life on Earth has never been easy. If it's hard for you because it is hard not being lazy or indulging in pleasure, just go out into solitude.
Yes. However sometimes it's harder and sometimes it's easier. It just so happens we are living in particularly Godless times, that is not some cop out it is just truth. I do plan to alter my surroundings to assist with my failures.

[Anonymous No.16953654]

>>16953410
>>16953522
>the people donating are making metta for their next life (good karma etc). he monks get to pursue nibbana, and the laypeople who choose the lay life ensure themselves a good rebirth next time round
>So they earn good karma, or goodness in Christian perspective, or they feel good helping others, who live a "holy" life.
>In all of human history, most of the things you think about, have been a burden. Kings, priest, churches, great monuments, or achievements, all rest on the backs of people who work, all day, all life. And get nothing for it but drudgery, and the sense that they are part of something more.
(In Pali) "I cannot think or comprehend..."

[Anonymous No.16953691]

>>16952612
Lay people aren't supposed to try to live like monks, retard. Buddha understood that most people can't live in a monastery so he had specific teachings for lay people. The monastery is there to support those who do want to dedicate their lives to the practice. It's worked for thousands of years.

[Anonymous No.16953743]

>>16952924
Why are you racist?

[Anonymous No.16953753]

>>16953691
Then why is Buddhism dying?

[Anonymous No.16953761]

>>16953743
That guy is a clown who strawmans monks, but he is absolutely right that the ones in the picture are out of control with an evil political agenda.

[Anonymous No.16953827]

>>16953761
There is literally nothing unchristian about protesting tyrannical police murders.

[Anonymous No.16953885]

>>16953827
You belong in a "now this" or "occupy democrats" social media committee because of how disgustingly you distort reality.

[Anonymous No.16953912]

>>16953885
>cops shouldn't murder people
Does this trigger you tranny?
Cope atheist chud

[Anonymous No.16953923]

>>16953912
Behave yourself, atheist, or I will give you a taste of my shoe!

[Anonymous No.16953948]

>>16953827
You will never be a real woman. You have no womb, you have no ovaries, you have no eggs. You are a homosexual man twisted by drugs and surgery into a crude mockery of nature’s perfection.

All the “validation” you get is two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock you. Your parents are disgusted and ashamed of you, your “friends” laugh at your ghoulish appearance behind closed doors.

Men are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of years of evolution have allowed men to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even trannies who “pass” look uncanny and unnatural to a man. Your bone structure is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk guy home with you, he’ll turn tail and bolt the second he gets a whiff of your diseased, infected axe wound.

You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it’s going to be ok, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.

Eventually it’ll be too much to bear - you’ll buy a rope, tie a noose, put it around your neck, and plunge into the cold abyss. Your parents will find you, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They’ll bury you with a headstone marked with your birth name, and every passerby for the rest of eternity will know a man is buried there. Your body will decay and go back to the dust, and all that will remain of your legacy is a skeleton that is unmistakably male.

This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.

[Anonymous No.16953952]

>>16953541
You really don't need to respond line by line, no one cares.
You are a christcuck, go get cucked. You beliveve you are saves, you are saved. Quit quilt-tripping everyone else over your credulity. Get over it or don't. You're an irrational asshat, either way.
>>16953654
All you stupid fucks are the same
Religion is a method for coping. You are failures, you are the imbeciles, the people who cannot endure life as it is. Nothing you think, or write, will make you look less ridiculous.
Go do just one thing that is worthwhile, and will have made your useless fucking live mean something.

[Anonymous No.16954010]

>>16953753
It's cyclical. Buddha talks about how the dhamma will eventually be lost and completely forgotten until the next Buddha discovers the same path. The historical Buddha isn't the first Buddha, and certainly won't be the last.

[Anonymous No.16954058]

>>16953952
>You really don't need to respond line by line, no one cares.
If you don't care then don't respond, yet here we are. The lack of quality content in your response is not an indicator of lack of care, but rather lack of ability to contribute. I respond line by line because I have a simple answer for everything you have thrown at me so far, you're really unimpressive.
>You are a christcuck, go get cucked.
t. the rational male
>You beliveve you are saves, you are saved.
Type much? No, actually right now I am regularly choosing hell day to day, I have a long way to go. Once again you show little understanding of the religion.
>Quit quilt-tripping everyone else over your credulity. Get over it or don't. You're an irrational asshat, either way.
You assume too much about me and you assume too much about Catholicism. If you think it is irrational then read St Thomas Aquinas and your beliefs will be promptly flipped.
>All you stupid fucks are the same
Religion is a method for coping
Ironically it is very rare to meet an atheist that has actually consumed and thought through the actual content of the religion. There are intelligent ones though, and I am sure they disagree with you as much as they do me. Although they would prefer a beer with me because at least I am civilized.

[Anonymous No.16954069]

>>16953948
Shut up tranny

[Anonymous No.16954140]

>>16954058
Take your autism meds already. You are worthless scum, and you will die as such.
Christianity was made to make you at least a contributing member of society, before psychiatry. It's not an excuse to attention-whore, since you have nothing to contribute.
You are scum, and you expect to get fed, because that's how we treat bottom-feeders now, and so they never grow.
You are not civilized. You are nothing. Go do one worthwhile thing with your life instead of wasting it online. I can keep pissing on you all night, just to pass time, and go about my life in the morning. And you can cry about "evil", and how bad the world is, and you will still just be shit, and the world will be just what it is, indifferent to you.

[Anonymous No.16954149]

>>16954140
Cope tranny chud

[Anonymous No.16954162]

>>16953347
>helping others, reducing harm, paying more attention, reducing inane chatter, etc so that your body/mind understands what a proper set of behavior is like.
What it i fundamentally don't believe in morals and believe there is no good or evil and have zero empathy in my dna?

[Anonymous No.16954194]

>>16952479
Even if you just followed the first precept, to not kill any living creature, you are giving the gift of non-harming to every sentient being on the planet.

[Anonymous No.16954259]

>>16954140
Its actually comical, although I am not laughing, how much you resemble someone who is suffering through the stages of grief, particularly denial, anger, and bargaining.

It is comical, but again I am still not laughing, how much you are genuinely projecting your own demonstrable faults onto me. I say demonstrable because you simultaneously accuse me of something while being guilty of it in your very own posts. For example:
>Go do one worthwhile thing with your life instead of wasting it online. I can keep pissing on you all night, just to pass time, and go about my life in the morning.

I hope you stop living a lie anon, be well.

>>16954162
What it i fundamentally don't believe in morals and believe there is no good or evil
Then you're wrong and won't make progress until you alter your beliefs.

[Anonymous No.16954318]

ENOUGH
IVE HAD IT
EVERY BUDDHIST THREAD I ENTER I HOPE TO LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT BUDDHISM, AND I JUST END MORE CONFUSED AS ANONS CANT SEEM TO AGREE ON EVEN THE BASICS
GIVE ME A GOOD SOURCE TO BEGIN ON BUDDHISM NOW YOU FUCKS

[Anonymous No.16954333]

>>16954318
What the Buddha Taught, or In the Buddhas Words. Then, read the Heart Sutra.

[Anonymous No.16954349]

>>16952479
Wanting no desire is desire too

[Anonymous No.16954354]

>>16954349
Classic misunderstanding of Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.16954367]

>>16954354
I was talking in reference
>I live in middle of europe. What the fuck is there to do all day with no ambitiouns, dreams, goals, motives aka attachements??? There is only so much you can hike in nature and follow your breath?

Wanting no desire in a concrete jungle is too a desire

[Anonymous No.16954421]

>>16953952
>All you stupid fucks are the same
Apart from getting mad at the joke, you have to admit that the poisoning of religious practice by religion as an institution, to which religious practice depends on, basically condemns religion to inexorable degradation from its inception. No religion sustains. Buddhism accounts for that in the three stages of Dharma, but it does so in terms of cosmology, not in the practical sense of making the religion compatible with the lay. All religion ever does is tell the lay "do this meaningless thing and it will be as good as doing the hard stuff". It's sad that Buddhist institutions in places like Japan exist exclusively thanks to funeral practice.
The only way I can think of a religion that actually sustains is something like Islam, where the rules of the religion encompass every aspect of society, law, etc., but then other issues arise.
>Why do you care that religion sustains in a relatively unaltered state?
Because I don't want to get conned by snake oil sellers.
>But religion is just a way of coping, that's not important.
But how? How do you manage to drink the water when you know the well is poisoned? If I become part of the clergy I will know I exist as a service, if I become a layperson I will know I am doing meaningless things because the life I lead would make it impossible to achieve any of my religion's goals if I were not outsourcing the work to the clergy, who is nothing but a middleman micro-transactional service to a divinity I will never know.
Is being raised religious from birth and never randomly questioning your belief the only way to be truly religious?
Then comes the part where I realize that the moral entropy I lament is entirely fictional and nothing but the product of thousands of years of genetic and cultural imprinting, that Nature does not care that people now exist for nothing but materialistic pleasure, Nature will not care if we become a swarm of insects, and swarms of insects are currently doing just fine in total absence of love or beauty. I think about 1984 or ISAIF and I realize there's no reason in particular why the hivemind endgame is objectively bad whether human society fails or not to survive environmental issues, etc.
So you somehow willingly force yourself into irrationally believing something or you have the blackest nihilism.

[Anonymous No.16954436]

>>16954149
Weee, awesome, intelligent, eloquent
>>16954259
>comical, although I am not laughing
Because it's not. You just don't know what to say, like tranny-boy above you
And yet neither of you can do something as simple as stop shitposting and go do something, just one actual, real thing, that isn't blathering about shit up your own ass, as if that meant anything
I would feel pity for you, if you at least tried, except all you do is use the internet to pretend your lives mean anything. They don't. And calling me names, or pretending at superiority, you both know is false, will not not change that.
Go. Outside. Live. Actual lives.

[Anonymous No.16954468]

>>16954421
>If I become part of the clergy I will know I exist as a service
Yes, you are a servant to your brothers and sisters, this is a good thing.
>if I become a layperson I will know I am doing meaningless things because the life I lead would make it impossible to achieve any of my religion's goals
No. That might be buddhism, but it certainly is not Catholic.
>if I were not outsourcing the work to the clergy, who is nothing but a middleman micro-transactional service to a divinity I will never know.
That's like saying we don't need the scientific community they just middle man natural truths to us that we should get by our own personal experimentation.
>The only way I can think of a religion that actually sustains is something like Islam
Nothing "sustains" everything on Earth is finite. The Catholic Church is aware of the human corruption within it and it accounts for this within the theology.

[Anonymous No.16954483]

>>16954421
Start by not believing. By not taking other people's words for things
Then work to find a place in your life, where you are in a position to make up your own mind. To learn what there is to learn, and think, and question, and doubt. What is right.
If you cannot feel happiness or contendedness, you are in no position to say what is right, or what is wrong, because you can never be sure, that you are not just trying to escape misery.
First, you must find a place, where you fit. And THEN, if you still feel it, you can start searching for some truth beyond that.
All traditions start once you have a family, a wife, a job, a home, a family. Once you have had those, then you can start searching.

[Anonymous No.16954484]

>>16952479
They are talking about craving, not having dreams.

[Anonymous No.16954494]

>>16954318
The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching, by Thich Nhat Hanh.

[Anonymous No.16954495]

>>16954436
You are literally, like clockwork, continuing to do exactly what I said you were doing in my previous post. You lack self awareness.

By the way if you believe we live in a world where there is no reality, no truth, no good or evil, then nothing you say is true, because there is no truth. So there is no reason to even consider your hollow attempt at advice which is really just NPC drivel.

[Anonymous No.16954501]

>>16954484
craving is just excess desire, and no theyre not talking about moderation - thats exactly the problem, dont try to impose western post-aristotelian ideals on them

[Anonymous No.16954515]

>>16954483
If your entire approach to life is based on feelings I will have to take a hard pass.

[Anonymous No.16954588]

>>16953753
It isn't, there's over a billion Buddhists. There's more Buddhists now than there ever have been. ALL religions have declining populations, the fertility rate growth of the entire fucking planet is slowing. If you're making reference to conversion, the only religion that is growing in that regard is Low Church Protestantism, which is really just cannibalizing Catholics and Muslims.

Anon here >>16954010 points out that it's canonical in Buddhism that Buddhism will fade, but we've still got a few thousand years before that.

[Anonymous No.16954659]

>>16954468
>Yes, you are a servant to your brothers and sisters, this is a good thing.
I thought I was meant to serve God? How do I serve God if every action I take and every implication of my life is unbelievably un-Christian? If I were to act a true Christian among Christians I would be shunned by those people. All that I have to redeem myself is go to the priest and confess or make more money so I can give it to the Church.
>The Catholic Church is aware of the human corruption within it and it accounts for this within the theology.
But the Church itself is corrupt and Jesus did not account for the Catholic Church, why would I care that the Church accounts that it is corrupt?
>That's like saying we don't need the scientific community they just middle man natural truths to us that we should get by our own personal experimentation.
The difference is that science is a very sustainable method and the scientific community actually provides people of solutions to the problems it addresses (will get back on it later). Science as a method can still be adopted by people who are not part of academia, or not working scientists. There is no separation of the practice between the "institutional" science and the "lay" science. I could technically, in a time of need, make penicillin in my basement with proper preparation. The scientific method does not get "corrupted" by its need to sustain itself (the politicization of academia seems like a threat, but it seems to cover mostly "unimportant" things like art or literature and will never threaten the method itself), you won't get people teaching alternative mathematics to non-mathematicians, or arguing over the composition of chemicals without proof that someone somewhere was wrong. The kernel of scientific practice is incorruptible, the kind of knowledge it achieves will sustain and can only improve as far as science's goals are concerned.
Ironically, science may also solve the problem of the pain of life, unhappiness, and so on: simply change the chemicals in one's brain. All the dilemmas of religion may be gone with a pill one day, and you'll be able to do whatever is needed to further the industrial system, which in the end is your brothers and sisters, without feeling any displeasure. This feels horrible to me right now because of my conditioning, but really, in the grand scheme of things, I do not have a solid argument to say why this is bad, outside of vague concepts like "freedom" that are highly debatable as is. It's terrible.

[Anonymous No.16954676]

>>16954483
>All traditions start once you have a family, a wife, a job, a home, a family. Once you have had those, then you can start searching.
So I have to serve the industrial system which has effectively replaced religion. Why not simply skip religion and serve the system harder?

[Anonymous No.16954766]

>>16954676
Jobs, homes, and families existed before the industrial system lmao.

[Anonymous No.16954819]

>>16954766
Right, where's my time machine?

[Anonymous No.16954830]

>>16952553
>>16952800
It's called the middle path. Do anons know anything?

[Anonymous No.16954923]

>>16954058
>>16954140
Samefag.

[Anonymous No.16954953]

>>16954140
Ironically, I have been feeling this way about some of friends, who are Marxists. Imo. The US, perpetuates institutionalization. There are people who need to be taken care of, the mentally and/or physically ill. We should not take care of able bodied men, but also, if there are no opportunities for a better life; who can blame normies for falling into despair.

[Anonymous No.16955123]

>>16954140
>Christianity was made to make you at least a contributing member of society, before psychiatry.
I thought that Christianity was about joining God in the afterlife. If you think Christianity is about real life benefits and "society" to a degree, how can you actually be a Christian by knowing that the society you are contributing to as a Christian is managing to do a better job than God at solving the problem of pain with rather rudimentary pills, and is also generally discarding religion wholesale in exchange for more consequence-free hedonism? How do you support a suicidal system like this? Consider that psychiatry and neuroscience are in a relatively early stage.
Like you tell people to get a job, raise a family, etc, but those are the same goals that are written fro you in Satan's fucking handbook. Produce more products for the hedonist machine, attract a mate at all costs provided she's down to make another robot that you won't raise so he'll become a hedonist working bee. So very Christian, as long as you give money to the Church, am I right?

[Anonymous No.16955465]

>>16954494
>mahayana

read noble eightfold path bhikkhu bodhi

[Anonymous No.16955653]

>>16955465
>mahayana or theravada
Can u explain the main difference anon

[Anonymous No.16955720]

>>16955653
Theravada sticks to the original teachings of the buddha

mahayana invents new teachings and ascribes them to the buddha

That's an extremely crude way of putting it but it's the general idea

[Anonymous No.16955734]

>>16955720
And thich nhat hahn is mayahana? All buddhist lit i got into so far is from him. Did i get memed?

[Anonymous No.16955794]

>>16955720
I know it's beside the point, but there was a period of like 500 years between the Buddha's death and the Pali canon being compiled. It's basically impossible to know what a historicla Buddha really taught, if he existed at all.
>>16955653
Mahayana is more like Christian-Buddhism. It keeps the core tenets but places much more emphasis on what you do instead of on a solitary search for enlightment. However, you have veneration of many, many gods, Buddhas, whatever. There's even the Pure Land, which has a ton of adherent in east Asia that's borderline monotheism. I'm not kidding, look it up, specially their idea of the trikaya (3 bodies of the Buddha).

[Anonymous No.16955807]

>>16955653
>>16955720
>>16955794

[Anonymous No.16955852]

>>16955734
>Did i get memed
yeah

Thich nhat hahn is a wonderful man, but in my opinion if you really want to understand the buddha's teachings you should read primary sources i.e. the pali canon

If you do that you'll be better able to suss out what is the teaching and what is not.

There are some highly orthodox monks who go by the pali canon , i recommend you listen to / read them

such as

(thai scholar)
Phra Payutto

(Western forest monks)
-Ajahn Jayasaro
https://www.amaravati.org/book-authors/ajahn-jayasaro/?fpmtp_languages=english
-ajahn sucitto
https://dharmaseed.org/teacher/9/
-ajahn sona
https://www.youtube.com/user/AjahnSona
-ajahn brahm
https://www.youtube.com/user/BuddhistSocietyWA
-ajahn pasanno


All of these monks are extensively on youtube and there are books by them too. Thai forest monks usually communicate by giving talks not by reading books

-bhikkhu bodhi (scholar)
-most Sri lankan monks


To get started though, just read the noble eightfold path by bhikkhu bodhi

[Anonymous No.16955872]

>Why yes I think Tantrayana is superior. How could you tell?

[Anonymous No.16955888]

>>16955852
Of course ajahn thanissaro.

And the pali canon can be read for free both on
accesstoinsight.org

and the more modern but less approachable

suttacentral.net

[Anonymous No.16955905]

>>16955807
lol

[Anonymous No.16955991]

>>16955807
>Buddhist Monk: (Enraged)

[Anonymous No.16956278]

>>16954318

[Anonymous No.16956283]

>>16955807
Kek. Now do pure land.

[Anonymous No.16956287]

>>16955888
Checked, based and Geoffpilled.

[Anonymous No.16956294]

>>16954318
Start here anon.

[Anonymous No.16956335]

>>16954318
I wrote a post a while back describing my own understanding of Buddhism as consisting of a set of models. A model of suffering, a model of the path, and a model of the mind. I hope you'll forgive me for reposting, but it seems pertinent here and I don't want to rewrite the whole thing.

If you're like me, you prefer to have a system or model which, given some first principles, you can derive yourself (similar to a mathematical proof). My understanding of the dhamma (thus far) consists of just three models: the model of suffering, the model of the mind and the model of the path. The model of suffering are the four noble truths. The model of the path are the eight folds. The model of the mind is what I call "mind as committee" and is a conceptualization that I picked up from the lectures of Thanissaro Bhikku (highly recommended).

Both models arise from a simple question: what, when you do it, leads to your long-term happiness? The Buddha basically pursued this question to its end, not giving up until he found an answer. The dhamma and the path it prescribes is that answer.

The four noble truths are the true core of the dhamma and they are in some sense self-evident. The first truth merely states that suffering exists, if this were not true, there is no point in further inquiry. If suffering exists then the question becomes, what causes suffering? Why this question? Because if suffering had no cause, then there is no point in further inquiry. It's like trying to solve a problem with your car, say your car won't start. If you don't know what's causing the car to stall, how can you fix it? And if there is no cause, then it is impossible to fix. The second noble truth addresses this and states that that the cause of suffering is craving, more specifically craving for sensuality--thinking about pleasures (note, not the pleasures themselves, but thinking about them)--craving for becoming--wanting some identity in some world of experience, e.g the identity of an attractive person, the identity of a rich person, the identity of an intelligent person, even the identity of an enlightened person (but, as we'll see, not all craving is necessarily "bad" or unskillful)--and craving for not becoming--wanting to get rid of an identity that you identify with, e.g the identity of a lazy person, or an ugly person, or a stupid person. Having identified the cause, we naturally ask is there a way to fix this cause? If there is no way to fix this cause, then there is no point in further inquiry. The third noble truth, addressing this, states that if you abandon craving, you will no longer suffer. Finally the last logical question: is the fix actually feasible? The fourth noble truth states there is a way to abandon craving which the Buddha calls the eightfold path. Even better, the fruits of the path are not binary, you don't need to get all the way to the end to derive benefit, at every step you reduce overall suffering.

1/2

[Anonymous No.16956341]

>>16956335
The path the Buddha described can be summarized as virtue, concentration and discernment. Virtue entails the principle of non-harm. Harming yourself obviously causes suffering. Harming others may lead them to harm you, again causing suffering. Concentration is the practice of meditation and it is both a way to investigate and test the models the Buddha presents (particularly the four noble truths) and a skillful source of pleasure to replace unskillful sources--i.e activities which are pleasurable, but harmful to yourself or to others. Eventually even the pleasures of concentration must be abandoned, as they too are a form of craving, but until then they are a useful substitute for unskillful activities, a useful form of craving. I think of them like training wheels on a bike, the whole of point of training wheels is to one day ride without them. The Buddha gives the example of a raft used to a cross a surging river. Once you have crossed, you let the raft go, but until then, you use it. Finally discernment is understanding of the dhamma itself and moreover, being able to properly judge the skillfulness of an activity, as whether it contributes to your long term happiness or just to the short-term (which is to say, suffering).

Finally, the model of the mind as committee, imagines the mind as a collection of competing desires. Some of these desires, if followed will lead to long term happiness, these are the ones which are in accordance with the path described above. The others will lead to short-term happiness (i.e suffering). At any given moment, a particular desire "has the floor" and is dictating your actions to satisfy itself. Once it is satisfied, it gives up the floor and new a desire takes its place. Your identity in any given moment is defined by your desire, likewise your whole world of experience. This is a natural quality of the mind. The "man in an ape suit" experiment is a great example of this, but we experience this all the time. For instance, try taking out your phone right now and checking what the bottom left most app is on the home screen. It shouldn't take more than two seconds. Once you've got it, put your phone away. Now, can your remember what time it was on the phone? This is what is meant by "becoming", when a desire limits your perception to only those elements which are relevant to its satisfaction. However the key insight is, while these desires arise spontaneously (something that concentration will quickly reveal) they need not be pursued. The mind has the ability to choose which desire it wants to follow and moreover to automatically reinforce those choices as they are made over and over again. Thus we should choose to follow those desires that lead to long term happiness--the desire to keep the precepts and maintain goodwill towards all beings (ways of practicing non-harm), the desire to meditate, the desire to learn and understand the dhamma--over those that lead to happiness only in the short term.

[Anonymous No.16956691]

>>16955720
That's wrong. Theravadan is not original Buddhism, and even up to the fifteenth century in Thailand an Sri Lanka there were monks in Theravadan monasteries ordained as monks in the Theravadan tradition that used Mahayana methods for enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.16956746]

>>16952612
Wrong. Just collect welfare checks. Or, book a ticket to Alaska and go live in the woods.

[Anonymous No.16956753]

>>16952813
Excuses

[Anonymous No.16958275]

>>16952612
you cant get enlightened around normies anyway

[Anonymous No.16958288]

>>16952705
>>Why are Christians so based bros?
Because they larp. Even Muslims are better than them.

[Anonymous No.16958297]

>>16952944
you still live to like sensuality [including thoughts]

[Anonymous No.16958311]

>>16953363
Lay people get karma points and hear some sutras.
That's the official version.

Lay people have always wanted monks to help them materially, like getting cheap houses in poor countries, dig drenches or do minute physical works.

[Anonymous No.16958321]

>>16953476
>>So it is mandatory to help the monks to attain super karma that will help you reach haven?
No.

>>16953540
>>Letting go is necessarily giving into desire isn't it?
no, letting go happens when you find something better, sensuality->whatever happens in meditation->nirvana. Sensuality and mediation always happen with some form of desire, but you can't desire nirvana, so you have to use something else to go there.

[Anonymous No.16958330]

>>16952479
My dude, you must distinguish between the rules for householders and the rules for monks.
And also look into Shinran. The nenbutsu is your friend.

[Anonymous No.16958332]

>>16952479
>stop desiring just be a narcissistic faggot
fuck buddhism

[Anonymous No.16958337]

>>16956691
Theravadan uses the pali canon and whatever parallel sutras there are today, that's still better than the mahayana fiction.

[Anonymous No.16958351]

If buddhism is the cure for everything then explain me how china became one of the biggest shitholes on this planet, every time i see a WEBM or GIF on this godforsaken website it's always those chinky bugmen driving over kids in their vehicles without remorse or eating live animals. Fuck buddhism

[Anonymous No.16958437]

>>16955807
fucking kek
>>16958351
You're not considering the history and politics of Asia and implying that Buddhism was the Christianity of Asia. China never had just Buddhism, it had Taoism, Confucianism, Buddhism, and a bunch of pagan-like folk cults coexisting together. Japan had traditional Shintō and Buddhism was mostly adopted because it was from China and Japan loved shit from China. China used to have tens of millions of Muslims as well. India had Hinduism as well as Buddhism. I'm not implying that Buddhism never had a hand in secular politics (it did get quite powerful of China wouldn't have persecuted it), but that happened to a much lesser degree than in the West. where Christianity was a massive force.
That said, the reason why Buddhism fails is because of what I mentioned above: you can't be a pious Buddhist like a Christian can be pious and live a "normal" life, in the end you will have to go to a temple and spin the wheel while reciting a thing before going home and eating live puppies for breakfast.

[Anonymous No.16958532]

>MUH emotional reaction to an english word that even in translation the buddha never said means buddhism poopoo
why do we bother having these threads? everyone just talks past eachother and someone dumps some recs for you to read which you won't.

[Anonymous No.16958976]

>>16958532
>everyone just talks past eachother
this is just normal conversation in 2020

[Anonymous No.16959283]

>>16952705
I'm a Christian monk and we don't do any of that anymore apart from gardening.
Nowadays we just pray, meditate, read the bible. In our free time we rap, browse the web, share memes, etc.

[Anonymous No.16959292]

>>16959283
>In our free time we rap, browse the web, share memes, etc.
Henry VIII was right

[Anonymous No.16959350]

>>16952561
>MUH MATERIAL ABUNDANCE
almost completely irrelevant especially if you're poor. have you looked at the world? my family is broken and my community is not a community. no one is spiritual. everyone is a ravenous ideologue little more than an animal, the most debased human specimens in history as far as i can tell. even societal collapse would somehow end up with something more human and good, what does that say about modern conditions. i'm ok with this but don't be dishonest or materialistic pls.

[Anonymous No.16959864]

>>16959350
Humans evolved in such a way that they had to start getting good at noticing what little berries there are left after most of them have been harvested. That's why racism in the USA is such a huge topic at the moment. there are real problems but you got to remember that our ancestors that survived were really good at finding the very small amount of berries that were left. They also did other things besides look for the few remaining berries.

[Anonymous No.16960248]

>>16952479
you can enjoy things without being attached to them retard

[Anonymous No.16960298]

>>16960248
>>16960248
>>you can enjoy things without being attached to them retard
impossible

[Anonymous No.16960300]

>>16959283
>In our free time we rap, browse the web, share memes, etc.

[None !sex0lQafxY No.16960624]

>>16952479
Just do you bro, why would i care?

Also walking in the mountains and following breath is just another desire, so is seeking enlightenment. Figure that shit out.

[Anonymous No.16960713]

>>16960248
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.16960758]

Buddhism threads are by far the worst, and the worst part about this is that I think there are only up to 5 of the same people arguing in these threads.

[Anonymous No.16961585]

>>16960298
maybe for you since you are a clingy bitch

[Anonymous No.16962082]

does buddhism culminate in a "one" like, for instance, daoism or brahmanism does?

[Anonymous No.16962134]

>>16954367
Desire isn't necessarily a bad thing, without it would be impossible to gain enlightenment.
One must use desire to help strengthen his or hers practice until the right time to let it go.

[Anonymous No.16962439]

>>16952479
>desire is suffering. Let go.
suffering stems from desire, BUT not all desire leads to suffering. god /lit/ really is retarded

[Anonymous No.16962445]

>>16952894
>twitter personality
>youtube creator
> buy my book
it's like they're made in a factory

[Anonymous No.16962453]

>>16952479
>I desire to let go of my desire
Long roads ahead for you my friend

[Anonymous No.16962550]

>>16962082
Seems like it would. What else could Nirvana be. Mysticism having to do with the one usually abuses and neglects positive expressions of life. The only positive expression of Nirvana seems to be an enlightened person. Seems like a lot of religious views are based on escaping samsara or the world rather than transcending with it and purifying it. I would think the ultimate principle would have more to do than simply strip off his clothing and jump back into the ocean. Clothing could be nice sometimes. It's no wonder why some religions devalue the soul so much. It's essentially worthless rather than being another and same of God. Asceticism and detachment don't seem to grasp What Love Is. If you are one there is no need for love to bind together in unity. Yet What disciple of Buddha would not love him?

[Anonymous No.16962686]

>>16953030
Bro you really showed that dude on 4chan who's boss

[Anonymous No.16962833]

>>16958297
What if I'm fine with that?

[Anonymous No.16962852]

>>16952479
Buddhism (just like all other religions) are pure LARP and cope, pay them no mind.

[Anonymous No.16962936]

>>16962550
What is love according to you, anon? I've been fascinated by eastern spirituality lately but I just can't buy it for seemingly the same reasons as you.

[Anonymous No.16963333]

>>16962936
Love Is Bliss, liberation and Nirvana. It is attachment and detachment. It detaches from itself, attaching to its other. Love is divine pleasure and divine sex. It is what causes samsara. Love is not-self in that it loses itself in itself. Love is self in that it loses itself in itself. Love empties itself to find itself. It fills itself to know itself. Love counts it's other as itself. Love is simply blissful. It is the most profound wisdom.

[Anonymous No.16963414]

>>16959350
>the most debased human specimens in history as far as i can tell.
Perhaps, not the most far from God though.

[Anonymous No.16963571]

>>16959283
Complete larp

[Anonymous No.16963584]

I wish I could make my own monastery, with True Christianity, no politically correct Mumbo jumbo

[Anonymous No.16963613]

>>16953827
I hate you guys so much. Why do you have to be like this? Why? It’s like you dodge the argument by hiding behind emotionally charged topics that you make even worse by using words like “tyrannical”.

[Anonymous No.16963620]

>>1695395>>16954140

Someone had a rough childhood lol

[Anonymous No.16963630]

>>16963584
>True Christianity
You mean sucking Jewish dick, right?

[Anonymous No.16963677]

>>16963333
Quads of truth. We have similar beliefs, anon. I believe love is the ultimate truth and the real suffering lies in denying it, both to ourselves and others. We can't grasp its true meaning but our love and lives are perhaps enough as a guiding compass.

[Anonymous No.16964794]

>>16963630
No

[Anonymous No.16964983]

>>16954659
You just don't know much about what you're talking about, sorry to say. I will not give you the same point by point response as usual because there are so many inaccuracies here. Just read the church fathers and Plato and it will make sense.

[Anonymous No.16965415]

>>16959283
Sing for me your monk-y rap, brother.

[Anonymous No.16965538]

>>16956335
>>16956341
This was interesting, thank you.

[Anonymous No.16966096]

>>16963333
>>16963677
stick to your yoga class, buddhism is not for women

[Anonymous No.16966103]

>>16962439
>>suffering stems from desire, BUT not all desire leads to suffering
Very wrong, same as >>16966096

[Anonymous No.16966171]

>>16958351
It's one of the best places to live. White nations create anti-second-world propaganda. They do it a lot. They even attack such nations unprovoked, a LOT.

I won't bother to prove it to you though as you're just another shill for christianity combined with right-winger-capitalism.

capitalism/christianity/red-wingers want some to be poor, some to go to hell, some to own no land, but not blue wingers only reds own it

buddhists/commies/left-wingers want enforced equality, everyone to make the same money, to start out with credit equally and lose it over time due to bad behavior, fairly

[Anonymous No.16966182]

>>16958351
>largest nation with no privacy
>>why is this place over represented?

I'm sick of people being stupid enough to fall for it.

[Anonymous No.16966450]

>>16966096
I don't even know what Buddhism is or isn't anymore, but I'm certain it's not the ego death cult that will still allow you to stroke yours that you want it to be.

[Anonymous No.16966884]

>>16962082
bump

[Anonymous No.16966890]

>>16952479
Start by planting a tree

[Anonymous No.16967404]

ITT: Retards that don't understand Buddhism

Desire is just a translation of neediness. Neediness is the root of suffering. When you stop needing things you become happy.

For example, getting high to feel good is perfectly fine but getting high to cope with life is neediness (you need the drugs to be happy) and thus that desire (need) for a high is the cause of your suffering. By rising above this neediness you reach happiness, by rising above all neediness you reach enlightenment.

Really can't explain it simpler than that

[Anonymous No.16967412]

>>16966171
I have too many first hand accounts of people who went to China and said that it is a shithole, and any person I know who has dealt with mainlanders for business hated them.

[Anonymous No.16967421]

>>16964983
What was I inaccurate about?

[Anonymous No.16967431]

>>16952479
Becoming a NEET is the true way to enlightenment.
Buddha was a literal NEET

[Anonymous No.16967826]

>>16959283
are you the dude from that tiktok video

[Anonymous No.16967919]

>>16953363
>maintains tradition which people consider important (like people would donate in the west to some valuable science research)
>provide counsel to troubled people
>help come up with skillful means so society stays sane and on the path of truth