Shapiro - Anti Abortion Argument

[Anonymous No.16824885]

We had a thread about hism yesterday and it was clear that most people here don't like him. I agree with that, but he has one argument that I was unable to refute and the thread 404'd before I could ask about it. It goes like

>Abortion is ok, the fetus can not feel anything anyway
If that is the case, would it be right to kill people in a coma?
>But they will eventually wake up
Yes, and the fetus will eventually grow and become conscious

I don't want to start an abortion thread but what do you think about the argument? Does comparing a fetus to a coma patient make sense?

[Anonymous No.16824908]

>>16824885
This is not /lit/. I have never read a decent argument supporting the practice of abortion. The level of mental gymnastics one must do to hold that position is utterly baffling.

[Anonymous No.16824941]

>>16824885
A fetus is a fetus not a person like the coma patient, it's not a good comparison.

[Anonymous No.16824956]

>>16824941
It does not matter though, the person would not feel suffering if he was killed. How is it immoral? They both have the potential to become conscious

[Anonymous No.16824962]

>>16824885
This belongs elsewhere than /lit/, some zionist e-celeb sophist is not on topic
>>16824908
>a decent argument supporting the practice of abortion.
Down syndrome and anencephaly
Though of course it should be prohibited for healthy children

[Anonymous No.16824970]

>>16824941

Being a person is just a legal attribute. It's a fictional property which, like almost all other legal fictions, is useful, but not the proper basis for an ontology.
I hate Shapiro to no end, and don't even care that much about abortions, but this is a solid argument.

[Anonymous No.16824973]

>>16824885
who gives a fuck retard? everyday people kill trillions of sperms but nobody cares

[Anonymous No.16824974]

the fetus has never achieved consciousness, the person in the coma has.

[Anonymous No.16824984]

>>16824885
Coma patients have had experiences of the physical world and life, fetuses have not. They problem comes when deciding whether or not it is morally right for someone else to eliminate those experiences/memories/"Life". That's why the decision to kill a coma patient is 'more' morally wrong than killing and unborn fetus. Being born is having experiences/memories i.e personality. Terminating either of them is wrong, but one is 'worse' than the other. We have to decide where we draw the line, and now the line is at abortion and not coma patients/severely ill people or cripples or whatever.

[Anonymous No.16824991]

>>16824956
>it does not matter though
But it does, one is a human being and the other is not, they are not comparable in this a instance.

[Anonymous No.16824993]

>>16824941
What constitutes a person? A person seems to me to be a living human organism to me, and under that definition a fetus would be a person. Can you provide a definition of a person that a fetus wouldn't fall under and which doesn't explicitly exclude them in the definition (like saying a person is 'any non-fetus human') and which includes everyone else typically viewed as persons

I'm not even pro-life, just an interesting topic

[Anonymous No.16825000]

>>16824974
But in the present moment, none of them have consciousness. It does not matter to this person that he has lived a life, he would not remember this life because he is unconscious. Either way, the end result is the same. The man will gain consciousness and so will the fetus eventually

[Anonymous No.16825015]

>>16824991
This simply isn’t an argument. I ask again, if both have no consciousness, both are organisms, how is it any different?

[Anonymous No.16825018]

>>16824962
The act of aborting a fetus that will either be extremely impaired or dead within a few months is totally incomparable to aborting a fetus because you don't want to raise a child. When people argue for abortion, they're arguing for the right to terminate a pregnancy for any reason, not because there are extenuating circumstances.
>>16824991
Are you fucking retarded or something? Have you legitimately never read an argument on abortion before?
>one is a human being and the other is not
What constitutes a human being? It's embarrassing that you're spouting high school debate talking points.

[Anonymous No.16825045]

>>16824991
They are both by definition humans.

[Anonymous No.16825053]

>>16824991
>a fetus is not a human because it requires the mother to live
Does this mean that anyone on life support is no longer human? Are infants not human?
>a fetus is not a human because it is just a clump of cells
Every biological organism is just a clump of cells.
>a fetus has no memories so it is worth less
Are amnesiacs worth less than normal people?
>a fetus has no consciousness
Coma patients are still human.

Your position is totally untenable. Please open my eyes as to how a fetus is different from a human.

[Anonymous No.16825055]

>>16824885
>Does comparing a fetus to a coma patient make sense?
No. A comatose man is still a man. A fetus is a fetus. Abortion should be legalized simply because it's safer. It's still murder, of course.

[Anonymous No.16825094]

>>16824974

And why would this mean one can be murdered, the other not?
Consciousness is not the value used to determine if a fetus can be killed.

[Anonymous No.16825130]

>>16825015
>if both have no consciousness
They don't? Are you seriously stupid enough to think coalescing blob of cells has consciousness?

[Anonymous No.16825150]

>>16824885
Abortion is a stupid discussion because the right allowed the left to discuss it on their terms(i.e as a woman rights issue, for which they have no standing). They should focus all their efforts on remaking the conversation about lifestyle choices(i.e whore shaming and responsibility).

[Anonymous No.16825186]

>>16825000
then why not execute people who are sleeping? do you see how retarded you sound?
>>16825094
you can't murder someone who has never existed. someone in a coma has existed, not so true for the clump of cells

[Anonymous No.16825190]

>>16824885
Because a fetus is entirely dependent on the woman's body for survival, her control of her body supercedes the questionable "right to life" of the fetus.

[Anonymous No.16825204]

>>16825186
>you can't murder someone who has never existed. someone in a coma has existed, not so true for the clump of cells

Look, you might have had a point when your argument was that having had consciousness was the requirement (although I don't see the value there), but if you are pushing toward existence, that's just fucking retarded.

[Anonymous No.16825209]

if coma patients and babies are on some level equals why do babies please Baal so much more?

[Anonymous No.16825211]

>>16825190
Women shouldn't have control over their bodies

[Anonymous No.16825218]

>>16825186
>you can't murder someone who has never existed

And that is actually wrong, you *can* murder a baby, just not your own. The court will preemptively recognize the personhood of a fetus that was forcefully aborted by a third party so as to throw a murder charge at them.

[Anonymous No.16825224]

>>16825130
Are you incapable of reading?

[Anonymous No.16825231]

>>16825186
>you can't murder someone who has never existed
great, when are the leftists going to stop complaining about the future generations we're killing with climate change then?

[Anonymous No.16825241]

>>16825204
>Look, you might have had a point when your argument was that having had consciousness was the requirement (although I don't see the value there), but if you are pushing toward existence, that's just fucking retarded.
>>16825218
>>>16825186 (You)
>you can't murder someone who has never existed

And that is actually wrong, you *can* murder a baby, just not your own. The court will preemptively recognize the personhood of a fetus that was forcefully aborted by a third party so as to throw a murder charge at them.
>>16825231
>>>16825186 (You)
>you can't murder someone who has never existed
great, when are the leftists going to stop complaining about the future generations we're killing with climate change then?

[Anonymous No.16825247]

>>16825190
So you’re saying we should kill every single person on life support? Noted

[Anonymous No.16825255]

>>16825241
Yeah, that's the face I would expect someone who made such a garbage post to make while typing out that vomit.

[Anonymous No.16825272]

>>16825247
If you opted to not give blood and a person died as a result you're not a murderer.

[Anonymous No.16825280]

>>16825018
>The act of aborting a fetus that will either be extremely impaired or dead within a few months is totally incomparable to aborting a fetus because you don't want to raise a child. When people argue for abortion, they're arguing for the right to terminate a pregnancy for any reason, not because there are extenuating circumstances.
I agree (as my post mentioned) I was just saying that those extenuating circumstances do exist, unlike some crimes

[Anonymous No.16825289]

what's the morality of killing your baby holy fuck? this is my anti-abortion argument.

[Anonymous No.16825298]

>>16825241

Posting, do you speak it?

[Anonymous No.16825316]

>>16825255
>Yeah, that's the face I would expect someone who made such a garbage post to make while typing out that vomit.

[Anonymous No.16825341]

>>16825272
>Not giving blood to someone you had no idea would die is the same as switching off the only thing preventing a man from dying.

Okkie dokkie

[Anonymous No.16825358]

>>16824885
My fav uncle fell out of a tree a year ago and was brain dead after that. Aunt and grandma pulled the plug after the doctors said there was nothing that could be done. Grandfather blew his brains out because he didn't want to get too old. Ben Shapiro is a normie who doesn't want to talk about real life. Abortion is ok. I'm amazed so many on lit would listen to this kike (i respect jewish writers and musicians).

[Anonymous No.16825379]

>>16824885
debating ethics is retarted. you're literally just arguing over imaginary constructs

[Anonymous No.16825387]

>>16825358
>hey my family of morons know more about life than ben saphiro, therefore abortion good
Nice

[Anonymous No.16825413]

>>16825341
Yeah but "the machine" this time is your body

[Anonymous No.16825421]

>>16825387
It's true tho. Abortion is good.

[Anonymous No.16825437]

>>16825387
>>>16825358
>hey my family of morons know more about life than ben saphiro, therefore abortion good
Nice

[Anonymous No.16825464]

>>16824885
>If that is the case, would it be right to kill people in a coma?
Yes.

[Anonymous No.16825472]

>>16825437
exactly

[Anonymous No.16825486]

Abortion is more similar to taking a life than not. But it's more about property rights/personal freedom to me. The state has no business getting involved.

[Anonymous No.16825528]

>>16825053
>Does this mean that anyone on life support is no longer human? Are infants not human?
No, since they are outside the mother's body. A fetus is much more dependent on the mother than even an infant.
>Every biological organism is just a clump of cells.
Okay Mr. Materialist.
>Are amnesiacs worth less than normal people?
Obviously not, but this argument is hypothetical and stupid. Complete memory suppression is incredibly rare.
>Coma patients are still human.
Yes. They were at one point conscious. A fetus has never had/experienced consciousness.

[Anonymous No.16825535]

>>16825186
if it's just a clump of cells why does it need to be aborted?

[Anonymous No.16825556]

>>16824885
All this does is refute an argument I have never seen pro choice people make. At least use the violinist meme one.

[Anonymous No.16825579]

>>16824993
>A person seems to me to be a living human organism to me, and under that definition a fetus would be a person
I'm curious, define living

[Anonymous No.16825614]

>>16824885
its really just kind of empty sophistry that doesnt really hit the key disagreement between people for or against abortion.
thats kind of his gimmick in general, he just tries to dunk on people instead of making any effort to resolve or investigate the tension. hes not a philosopher but a public speaker.
his argument is essentially 'anything that might in the future become conscious should be treated as having full rights' which kinda breaks down the second you compare it to, for example, sperm or egg cells.

the key issue he fails to word is when does a fetus hit the point where it constitutes as 'human' enough so that it gets granted the full package of human rights?
If you take away this conception of humans as having this untouchable status that grants them these rights the entire problem falls in the water.
for example, If you would have asked the Spartans about abortion they would've used it freely as long as they saw it as beneficial to their society, in fact they already dumped children after birth if they were too weak.
So the real disagreement becomes: when does this untouchable humanist status enter the fetus? is that one cell somehow more 'human' than the two cells before conception? is it when it gains a nervous system maybe?
a christian or muslim might answer this very differently as well, they'd have to point at the moment the soul enters, which is just as problematic. The holy texts dont say anything precise about it and its pretty hard to measure when the soul enters.

[Anonymous No.16825789]

>>16824908
A bundle of cells isn't sentient or able to grow outside of the womb.

[Anonymous No.16825799]

>>16825150
based

[Anonymous No.16825850]

>>16824885
Antipodean cuck here. Only know of this squirt from his hissy fits in YouTube. The argument you’ve brought up is stupid. Like what other anons have said: It’s a complete false analogy that ignores temporality. Is this guy actually taken seriously? He he butt hurt because he looks like a foetus himself and his afraid he’ll be next? What a gronk.

[Anonymous No.16825878]

>>16824885
As an adult you really get to understand how retarded philosophical debates on abortion can get.
If you're, say, a woman who has married someone, gets pregnant, and then that man leaves her. Congratulations you're alone and cannot get a job because you're pregnant, and you also cannot raise your kid because you're unable to find a job. Just a straight up miserable existence.

Does this board truly think people who commit abortions have to feel guilty their entire lives? It's not as vividly cartoonish as poltards claim where young women offer their fetuses to Moloch, the majority has a damn good reason (confirmed by the law, which allows it more and more worldwide).

On the other hand all those problems go away if the people pushing for pro life legislation would be less autistic about muh life.

[Anonymous No.16825914]

>>16825528
>be baby
>get fever after being born
>slip into a com- lolno we'll just kill it, never experienced consciousness

[Anonymous No.16825934]

>>16825150
>sexual liberty is bad

[Anonymous No.16825970]

>>16825579
It's cells (including it's brain cells) are doing biological processes and are replicating.

[Anonymous No.16825984]

>>16825970
And so are the skin cells on my body. Your point?

[Anonymous No.16825990]

>>16824885
>I don't want to start an abortion thread
why did you start an abortion thread then you fucking nonce

[Anonymous No.16826007]

>>16825984
I defined a Person as a "living human organism". Skin cells are not organisms

[Anonymous No.16826022]

>>16826007
And doctors and biologists probably define it differently.

[Anonymous No.16826030]

>>16826022
Appeal to authority but alright, how do they define what a 'person' is?

[Anonymous No.16826037]

>>16825614
Sophist literally could not describe him more aptly, his takes seem to take for granted that life begins at conception when at its reality that question is the true disagreement of the whole abortion argument.

[Anonymous No.16826040]

>>16825970
But pretty much every cell does this, but killing a lamb for meat isn't immoral, so there must be something more about humans that makes people squeamish about aborting them. Cell replication is a clinical process, neutral to morality.

[Anonymous No.16826047]

>>16826030
Someone outside of the womb or in their 3rd trimester.

[Anonymous No.16826061]

Imagine a bunch of women discussing if men should have the right for a vasectomies and seek the intellectual advice of a lobby funded womanlet jewess. Jesus.

[Anonymous No.16826069]

Morality is non-consistent and there's nothing wrong with that. Ethics is trying constantly to form a consistent understanding of morality, but in reality such a system does not exist because morality is a human construct not a logical one.

[Jesus No.16826074]

>>16824885
faggot, keyword is responsibility. who is going to want the child?

[Anonymous No.16826083]

>>16824885
>>Abortion is ok, the fetus can not feel anything anyway
>If that is the case, would it be right to kill people in a coma?
>>But they will eventually wake up
The correct answer to this isn't "they will eventually wake up"; the correct answer is, "We don't have to infringe on another person's autonomy in order not to kill a comatose person."

[Anonymous No.16826088]

>>16826030
Why is an appeal to authority bad? They're biological experts, you are not.

[Anonymous No.16826096]

>>16826083
>The correct answer to this isn't "they will eventually wake up"; the correct answer is, "We don't have to infringe on another person's autonomy in order not to kill a comatose person."
What?

[Anonymous No.16826098]

>>16826040
Look at my first post.
>>16824993
On the topic of whether fetuses are 'persons', I said Persons are 'living human organisms'. Now on the topic of objective morality, I don't believe in it. I'm just asking if we take it as a given that persons have the right to live and we are consistent in our definition of person, wouldn't that also mean fetuses have a right to life? Again I'm not pro-life, just trying to philosophize

[Anonymous No.16826105]

>>16826047
But how do you know, what's the indicator?

[Anonymous No.16826108]

>>16824885
>>16824885
>>Abortion is ok, the fetus can not feel anything anyway
While this is apparently what someone else said, I'd say that it's more accurate to say that the developing life can't suffer up to some point (i.e. it may develop a nervous system to feel things but is not yet sentient to process impulses intelligently as bad or good), but that also, a common argument for abortion has nothing to do with whether the developing life is sentient or a person. Let's stick to first term abortions for a sec. The pregnant woman is just given a pill. The pill detaches the developing life from the walls of the womb. The life then falls out like any other period. Eventually abortion requires more active measures, but a basic fact is held in common: at no point is anyone killing the baby, they're just failing to sustain the life of the baby. As with later stages, you open the cervix to evacuate the life from the womb. This is where the "my body, my choice," argument stems from. Is she not allowed to open her cervix? Is she not allowed to severe her flesh? Outside the context of an abortion, we would say yes. We might then say that the difference is that a life is on the line. But we never equate failing to help someone with killing them. If I see a gaunt man begging for food and he dies the next day because I failed to feed him despite having the means, I may be a bad person, but we would treat that very differently from someone who locked someone up in a basement and forcibly starved them. So the argument goes: she can do with her body as she wishes, and if that involves failing to save a developing life, so be it.
>If that is the case, would it be right to kill people in a coma?
For one, as argued above, it's not accurate to call an abortion a killing. It's failing to save a life. So the analogy already fails in that respect. But going with the sentience/personhood argument that you're trying to refute, for one, a person in a coma is conscious and capable of suffering. But further, even if they went into a vegetative state, we can say that the body WAS in the possession of a formerly ACTUAL person while the developing life will POTENTIALLY be a person in the future. Once you're an existent person, we will generally respect your will after your passing, meaning what you wished to have had done with your property. That includes your now unconscious body. But of course, the hospital has no obligation to keep you alive if you or your family can't afford to keep you. But no one has the right to tamper with the former person's property by killing it. So we can see where your attempted analogy fails.

[Anonymous No.16826112]

>>16826098
>Look at my first post.
???

[Anonymous No.16826120]

>>16826088
Technically it’s an appeal to an inappropriate authority. You’re conflating expertise. Just because doctors use that operational definition does not mean that they have the expertise to define what a “person” actually is.

[Anonymous No.16826124]

>>16826105
Fine, let's get a linguist and ask him.

[Anonymous No.16826131]

>>16824962
>thinks we should be able to strangle retarded people to death
gymnastics

[Anonymous No.16826135]

Leftists have no morals which is how they can live with these disgusting beliefs.

[Anonymous No.16826136]

>>16824974
>the subhuman that made this post has been in a coma since birth and hasnt attained consciousness
Sad! im rooting for you buddy! youll make it out of the coma someday111!!!!111!!1!!!!

[Anonymous No.16826138]

>>16824885
>would it be right to kill people in a coma?
Are they going to die without intervention anyway? Will their continued comatose state end up with the death of their closest female family member? Then yes, it's perfectly moral to Kavorkian that coma patient. Also
>human reproduction is literally the same as traumatic brain damage
His argument is stupid to begin with.

[Anonymous No.16826140]

>>16826131
Look, there's an obvious difference between cells and a living person. Why do you deny that?

[Anonymous No.16826144]

>>16826140
you are literally nothing but cells as we speak fuckhead

[Anonymous No.16826156]

>>16824885
Decent arguments but entirely wrong approach. Why do you frame it from the fetus's point of view? It's a horrible choice to make in any way but the only one who should have a say in it is the mother. Why? My house, my rules. Imagine if a liberal/nazi/conservative/sjw took residence inside your body - why on earth, if possible, shouldn't it be my fucking right to excise this foreign body? This is never moral but it's right.

[Anonymous No.16826161]

>>16826144
I can choose to continue talking with people itt or leave the 'chan for the night. You don't think that distinguishes us from other life forms?

[Anonymous No.16826171]

>>16826161
no because im am not a baka who thinks we have free will
all decisions are inevitably not decisions
they are all rational and predictable, that is unless you act absurd
but youd need a God to do that atheist scum

[Anonymous No.16826186]

>>16826171
That's a long haul away from the argument and you know it.
Luckily this autism is contained to this site and not in voting patterns of the majority of my country.

[Anonymous No.16826189]

>>16825789
Nor is an infant without help. When does the bundle of cells morph into a living thing?

[Anonymous No.16826191]

>>16826144
speak for yourself, some of us are sentient, more than the sum of our parts

[Anonymous No.16826200]

>>16826189
When it's born naturally.

[Anonymous No.16826223]

>>16826186
the argument u made was a strawman i actually addressed your strawman, when i should have just called it
>youre cells
>buT i CaN mAke DeciSiON
and then i proved you cant unless your not an athiest, which you are a blatant redditor so it was a safe bet, and you proved it so i was right anyways
and the fact that you care about the fate of this world just shows are miniscule you are, muh voting patterns
in the end its all futile and meaningless but you still cling to life as if it were worth something
truly pathetic but not surprising in the least
>>16826191
cogito ergo sum? or some similar veined argument
sentience does not have any worth
dogs and vultures are sentient, or conscious because sentience is a fucking spook
if you want to admit the existence of an eternal soul, a blessing, that proves that humans are worth more, thats fine too, but then you admit the existence of a God, see socrates.

[Anonymous No.16826231]

One thing thats interesting about Shapiro and the broader American discourse is the kind of shit he has said about Palestinians. I was thinking that if someone said the same stuff about jews or blacks in the U.S., that person wouldn't even be able to find a job as a garbageman

>Vox describes Shapiro as a polarizing figure, in part due to tweets such as "Israelis like to build. Arabs like to bomb crap and live in open sewage" (2010).[86][87]
>He further believes Israel and America will "continue to pay the price in blood and treasure" if they refuse to recognize the "simple truth" that the "Palestinian Arab population breeds terrorism, anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism".

[Anonymous No.16826233]

>>16826088
Even if we assume biological expertise is relevant here, why would their expertise give their claim validity? But the question of what is a 'person' is not a biological question but a philosophical question (especially when we are discussing about personhood in terms of human rights which falls outside the domain of biology)

>>16826047
That definition explicitly leaves out fetuses. It's like defining a person as a "non-fetus human." It's not rooted in any analysis of Human nature but was created ad hoc specifically to leave fetuses out. It's like stating Slaves aren't persons and when asked why stating "Persons are any freeborn humans" It's circular

>>16826112
I'm sorry if the format was confusing, I was trying to say that >>16824993 is my first post. The rest was just replying to you

[Anonymous No.16826259]

>>16826223
Just pointing out your initial assertion is bull, I'm not levying an argument against moral worth being reducible to the particular form of an organism's dna. Even if that's the case, you're clearly more than ''just cells'', because there are certain emergent properties.

[Anonymous No.16826266]

>>16826223
My will is free enough to experience itself, and to understand why certain laws are written with regard to the conservation of human life. I also understand that abortion is a meme topic, since you have seen at least 5 different definitions of "person".

Belief in a God doesn't really change anything btw, he still gave us emotions.

>>16826233
>
Because they had to handle more decisions and lesson material about life/the soul than anyone itt.

Do you really believe a fertilized egg cell is the same as a human?

[Anonymous No.16826279]

>>16826259
if i am clearly more than just cells, then now the burden of proof is on you to produce any rational and coherent line of reasoning that can sustain that a fetus is merely just cells
>>16826266
lmaoing at this antipelagian
also
M U H E M O T I O N S
emotions are for women and the end of anime ok bucko?
no where else
o and war and peace
but yeah youre a retard then, just read more i guess, you might get here someday

[Anonymous No.16826281]

Threads like these remind me of Alastair MacIntyre a lot.

[Anonymous No.16826282]

>>16826281
*Alasdair

[Anonymous No.16826299]

>>16825528
Defining life by conscious experience is retarded, life is granted with human-hood, in regards to the amnesiacs questions it was testing your consistency it does not matter how rare it is and you making that point is a clear deflection.

[Anonymous No.16826330]

>>16826279
>then now the burden of proof is on you
Not at all.

[Anonymous No.16826332]

>>16826266
>Because they had to handle more decisions and lesson material about life/the soul than anyone itt.
Well you aren't providing what their definition of what a 'person' is, but not all biologists share a consistent definition of what a human is. But most importantly, no claims are supported by authority. Einstein couldn't have stated Relativity is true because he's a scientist and he declares it so. If a Scientist has a rationale for his definition, let him present it and let it stand upon its own two feet.

>Do you really believe a fertilized egg cell is the same as a human?
Nope, I define a person as a 'Living Human Organism', eggs are single celled, not organisms,

[Anonymous No.16826335]

>>16824885
I support abortion because it keeps the nigger population down

[Anonymous No.16826380]

>>16824885
>muh when does life begin argument

You suffer because you're a moron.
Life doesn't have a beginning or end, it has an implied peak bookended by the valleys of death on either side.

You know what makes abortion okay?
The fact that it is within our power to do it.

If it was unnatural to be dead then it wouldn't be the primary state.

[Anonymous No.16826388]

>>16824885
>Abortion is ok, the fetus can not feel anything anyway
but your killing a soul that tries to manifest into matter

>Does comparing a fetus to a coma patient make sense?
how about a comatose fetus

[Anonymous No.16826396]

>>16824885
Read Thomson’s pro choice argument.

[Anonymous No.16826450]

>>16826231
didn't they just steal the land and before them didn't the romans steal the land from the jews
the history of the world is just one giant bank robbery where the thief, the police and the bank are all one person

[Anonymous No.16826496]

>>16824885

[Anonymous No.16826545]

>>16824885
The only argument I can really make for the practice of abortion is the termination of unviable foetuses due to illness or the prevention of generational trauma due to raising a child in shitty circumstances. Most people that are pro choice seem to want the right no matter what the circumstances of the pregnancy are and I just can't get behind that. If a woman keeps getting abortions rather than abstaining from sex or using contraceptives she should have her tubes tied because she would clearly be unable to raise a child well anyway due to low decision making abilities.

[Anonymous No.16826558]

>>16826330
nice one retard
>>16826332
then i can kill someone in a surgery? they arent alive
i get a thrill out of it, so ill just wait outside surgery rooms and theyll just let me because they arent a human being

[Anonymous No.16826609]

>>16826558
I just countered your assertion
>you are literally nothing but cells
If you want to try and convince me why we should give a fuck about a blob of jelly then go ahead.

[Anonymous No.16826645]

>>16826380
Does that mean it's ok to kill animals for sport/fun?

[Anonymous No.16826650]

>>16826609
i guess u didnt read the thread but idc cause i didnt either
i maintained that you have a soul, no matter how soullous and pseudo callous you pretend on the internet, and that to stifle a soul is murder, ie if you look a man with hate you have murdered him
with that definition it is very much murder and very much not allowed within the confines of the Christian faith
if your not christian then i guess im sorry for you

[Anonymous No.16826652]

>>16826156
It says everything that you're invoking the language of property and the rights of ownership to justify abortion. I've never heard of a foreign body sharing half it's DNA with it's host, faggot.

[Anonymous No.16826666]

>>16826161
Vitalism was unironically disproved in the 19th century. You have a high school understanding of reality at best

[Anonymous No.16826680]

>>16826200
So premature babies aren't living things? Children from c-sections aren't living things?

[Anonymous No.16826682]

>>16826650
yeah I'm not religious so I don't care about that

[Anonymous No.16826701]

>>16826682
wow the virtuous athiest is a spook?
who would have guessed that man without accountability would be debased and immoral
o w8, everyone would have guessed that
also u should know that youre an antiplatonist as well so your opinion is valid is any sort of form

[Anonymous No.16826734]

>>16824885
>Does comparing a fetus to a coma patient make sense?
No, because a coma patient is not dependent on someone else's biology to remain alive, where it would then become a question of ethical medical consent. If I were to, say, sew the head of someone onto the shoulders of Mr. Shapiro (without his consent) in a way that the head could maintain its life and brain function, he would not be compelled, either ethically or in terms of law, to maintain that life at the cost of his own biological matter. This may seem a contrived example, but there are very few real cases where such a dilemma would arise outside of pregnancy. The entire moralistic debate, however, is misguided. It is not necessary to justify whether or not one believes a fetus to be materially human. If one holds true any of the following
a. pregnancy can be attained without consent
b. abortion serves a legitimate health need
c. medical decisions for the individual are not mandated in pursuant of life as the ultimate goal
then it follows, in Western society, that it is not the government's job to regulate or make that decision on behalf of individuals. It is on these grounds that abortion remains legal.

[Anonymous No.16826755]

Late-term abortion is obviously equivalent to infanticide. You can argue about the earlier stages, and go all the way back to conception and perhaps further. But obviously killing a baby 1 day before birth is no different from killing a baby 1 day after birth. But that just shifts the issue to whether infanticide is ever okay.

[Anonymous No.16826778]

>>16826734
ITS DISCUSSING THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE TWO NOT THE FUCKING AUTONOMY HOW CAN YOU BE SO RETARD HOLY FUCK

[Anonymous No.16826784]

>>16826778
Yes, and discussing their consciousness is pointless. That's not the belief on which legal abortion is justified, unless you're a pundit.

[Anonymous No.16826787]

>>16826701
begging the question here

[Anonymous No.16826846]

>>16826784
fair enough, I apologize for the autistic breakout

[Anonymous No.16826862]

>>16826131
Unironically yes, retards and other mental invalids are not 'human' in the way we are

[Anonymous No.16826879]

>>16826096
I'm providing a more plausible response to that objection than the OP's strawman did.

[Anonymous No.16826882]

>>16826652
What does it say? I'm not a turbo capitalist or anything and it's quite hard to argue that ownership is in any sense "moral". The fact you used "host" plays into my hand though - not a big leap to think of the fetus as a parasite. The fundamental problem is that we humans lack agency over our reproductive processes. The issue would be void if we had breeding pods to outsource the birthing.
How much DNA you share with the parasite is a non sequitur. You share quite a lot of genes with a banana, a chimp and so on. Why should that be your argument? I am aware of the subtle differences in DNA, but taking your argument further, would you agree with me if the case was about surrogate motherhood?
I already admitted it's an ugly argument, but it's in the same vein as the Golden Rule. Another organism takes over your body, changes it and violently erupts at the end - and you're supposed to suffer this imposition because of the moral sensibilities of society?
Also don't be so literal, little man.

[Anonymous No.16826884]

Abortion is fine because it's morally intuitive to me that it's fine. All this sophistry and moral outrage is for the birds.

[Anonymous No.16826906]

>>16826884
Knowing to just trust your gut is based.

[Anonymous No.16826920]

>>16824885
Anti anything isn't an argument. It doesn't address their points it just negates them from your interpretation

[Anonymous No.16826995]

>>16826884
It's morally intuitive for me to want to firebomb anti-life fags too

[Anonymous No.16827031]

>>16826995
cringe

[Anonymous No.16827076]

abortion is probably the biggest hurdle for Jesus' return, he keeps getting aborted

[Anonymous No.16827090]

>>16826995
"Anti-life," lol. That might be too subtle, maybe you should call them "eviltrons" just to make sure everyone gets your point.

[Anonymous No.16827099]

>>16826995

So do it. I'm not stopping you, friend, only your lack of conviction and fears are.

[Anonymous No.16827104]

>>16825186
>then why not execute people who are sleeping? do you see how retarded you sound?
You're supporting his argument with this. It's absurd to kill people who are sleeping, it's absurd to kill people in comas, so it is absurd to kill a human fetus.

[Anonymous No.16827118]

>>16827104
>It's absurd to kill people who are sleeping, it's absurd to kill people in comas, so it is absurd to kill a human fetus.
How the hell does that follow?

[Anonymous No.16827125]

>>16826882
How is it a parasite if it's your choice whether or not a fetus grows inside you? Fetuses don't just spontaneously spawn in the womb. Why do you want to get rid of moral responsibility?

[Anonymous No.16827132]

>>16827125
>How is it a parasite if it's your choice whether or not a fetus grows inside you?
What if you're raped?

[Anonymous No.16827143]

Just remember, everyone: this is a human being, and destroying it would be murder.

[Anonymous No.16827160]

>>16827118
What? I'm not making a logical argument. It's just that if you admit that killing people who are sleeping is absurd, then you admit the same for fetuses because the argument to support both of them is the same. The scenario goes like this:
>the fetus has never achieved consciousness, the person in the coma has.
>in the present moment, none of them have consciousness, but they both will, so it is immoral to kill both of them
>why not execute people who are sleeping then?
And that's where you support his argument. Yes, it's absurd to kill people they are sleeping, much like it's absurd to kill people in comas and human fetuses.
Do you see now? I hope I made it clear

[Anonymous No.16827167]

>>16827132
Then you can abort it. That's not what the abortion debate is about. Don't play dumb.

[Anonymous No.16827292]

>>16827031
>>16827090
>>16827099
Damn you got rustled hard lmao

[Anonymous No.16827316]

>>16827143
Sounds right to me.

>>16826734
>a coma patient is not dependent on someone else's biology to remain alive
Yes they are. If they don't have intravenous injections they'll die of thirst. Ignoring that, you're arguing that it's okay for me, someone who is totally self-sufficient, to tear you limb from limb just because you're a manchild incapable of cooking his own tendies.

[Anonymous No.16827334]

>>16826450
My argument isn't about who's land it is, its just about how you can be racist towards one group and they'll tear your eyes out for it, but talk shit about another group and you can still get invited on prime time TV no problemo

[Anonymous No.16827352]

>>16827143
Just remember, everyone: a brain is a human being, and destroying it would be murder.

[Anonymous No.16827382]

>>16826496
> many pro-life politicians are hypocrites so being pro-life is incorrect
I have bad news about literally every single belief that human beings are capable of having.

[Anonymous No.16827389]

>>16824956
>It does not matter that I used a faulty comparison to build my argument
The intellectual rigor on /lit/ is likely the worst of 4chan.

[Anonymous No.16827394]

>>16824970
>Being a person is just a legal attribute.
Exactly, which is why abortion is fine. We kill nonhuman entities all the time.

[Anonymous No.16827399]

>>16824885
fuck off

let women handle their babies

just fuck off with this garbage


Aamericans are retarded with their abortion debates. CARING ABOUT LIFE MY ASS

HAVE U SEEN UR COVID NUMBERS?


JUST FUCKK OFF


FUCK OFF TO HELL AMERISHARTS


JUST FUCK OFF

[Anonymous No.16827411]

>>16824970
>this is a solid argument
Arguing with a strawman is not solid argumentation.

[Anonymous No.16827424]

>>16824973
All the people larping as Catholics here might say they care.

[Anonymous No.16827438]

>>16825272
Not if you're the one responsible for that person needing your blood. Then it's entirely your fault, since you put that person in that condition in the first place.

[Anonymous No.16827456]

>>16827399
>let women handle their babies

*let women kill their babies

[Anonymous No.16827460]

>As to the exposure of children, let there be a law that no deformed child shall live. However, let no child be exposed because of excess population, but when couples have too many children, let abortions be procured before sense and life have begun.
Who will you listen to, a babyfaced jew or a an ancient Medchad?

[Anonymous No.16827514]

Its a get out of jail free card nothing less nothing more, make a better society that pretty much anyone can thrive in if you want abortion to be seen as abhorrent.

[Anonymous No.16827516]

>>16825914
>never experienced consciousness
This statement is wrong.

[Anonymous No.16827520]

>>16827460
>who will I listen to
>not "what will I listen to"
Get off this board for making me write such a fatuous thing get the fuck out now

[Anonymous No.16827526]

>>16827292
Who?

[Anonymous No.16827536]

>>16827167
So you're in favor of abortion under certain circumstances. So am I. Under what circumstances do you believe abortion should be prohibited?

[Anonymous No.16827546]

>>16827160
Given that any organism might achieve consciousness in the future, doesn't this make it wrong to kill any organism?

[Anonymous No.16827553]

>>16826120
This is incorrect. Obviously an appeal to an inappropriate authority would be foolish and fallacious; however, appealing to any authority alone still constitutes poor logic because the authority in question could be mistaken. Additional evidence would be needed to ascertain the veracity of whatever the authority was saying.

[Anonymous No.16827562]

>>16827520
I will stay just to spite you

[Anonymous No.16827570]

>>16827526
2nd person plural, you'se, y'all

[Anonymous No.16827575]

>>16827167
>Then you can abort it.
Repent or you will burn in hell for this. If it wasn't god's will for the woman to become pregnant during rape it wouldn't have happened.

[Anonymous No.16827576]

>>16827570
But I didn't say anything mad-sounding.

[Anonymous No.16827589]

>>16827575
If you want to larp as a medieval Christian, do it in a monastery or a cave or something. No sense in half-measures.

[Anonymous No.16827596]

>>16827576
yeah all 3 responses were in a calmer tone than the outraged firebomber

[Anonymous No.16827599]

>>16827575
>Repent or you will burn in hell for this.
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!

[Anonymous No.16827606]

>>16827576
No, YOU did.

[Anonymous No.16827607]

>>16827456
yeah, sounds pog

[Anonymous No.16827613]

>>16826131
Putting it in greentext isn't an argument against it

[Anonymous No.16827616]

>>16827606
Where?

[Anonymous No.16827619]

>>16827596
I am always like that. Therefore I cannot be riled up, it's my base state.

[Anonymous No.16827626]

Lol just like don't have sex, like lmao use a rubber bruh how is abortion real

[Anonymous No.16827638]

>>16824885
Fetus' can be terminated legally up until a certain time. Your comparison between a clump of cells and a living, breathing human is incomparable but you did it anyway, which makes you the biggest moron on 4chan right now. You should kill yourself, that would show us. Tranny cunt.

[Anonymous No.16827639]

>>16827546
>Given that any organism might achieve consciousness in the future
When? It would take a couple million years for that to happen. And they wouldn't be the same organism anymore.

[Anonymous No.16827646]

>>16827456
just fuck offf

[Anonymous No.16827648]

>>16826862
whats to stop me from genociding all of africa because their average iq is technically retarded
what to stop me from saying that sub 115 is retarded, because really it is, and then killing those people?
you just want to kill babies because your pathetic thats its, theres nothing more

[Anonymous No.16827649]

Abortion is bad but it's worse to let a kid be raised by some cunt that would want to get an abortion

[Anonymous No.16827657]

>>16827639
>When?
Who knows? But it's possible. Anything is possible.

>And they wouldn't be the same organism anymore.
No kidding, and a single cell isn't the same as a human being with thoughts, memories, hopes and ambitions.

[Anonymous No.16827658]

>>16824993
A fetus is a parasite. It is morally correct to terminate parasites.

[Anonymous No.16827664]

>>16827638
FUCK OFF i have had it with you cock sucking abortion baby murdering cunt suck fucks i f you were here i would abort you mother fucker and see how you like it pussy beta bitch boy fuck off

[Anonymous No.16827670]

>>16827648
>whats to stop me from genociding all of africa
Because you are a weak flabby baby who would be immediately beaten into submission if you tried to attack an African

[Anonymous No.16827671]

>>16827664
It's called murder and is illegal. Abortion is legal. How does that make you feel? Be honest.

[Anonymous No.16827681]

>>16827671
you being a faggot babykiller fuck is what's legal cuntboy

[Anonymous No.16827684]

>>16826131
>>thinks we should be able to strangle retarded people to death
>why y-

[Anonymous No.16827688]

>>16827536
>So you're in favor of abortion under certain circumstances.
No. I am against it in every case besides rape, incest, extreme genetic defects, or if it threatens the mother. This like telling a Jewish person "You don't eat pork? What if you were on a deserted island and the only food source was pork? Or if you're starving? Oh so you're in favor of eating pork under certain circumstances, all of which constitute a minority of cases."
What is modern ethics' obsession with autistic counterexamples, OP included? This isn't real analysis. Your morality doesn't have to be a rigorous proof. The Hindus got it right the first time.

[Anonymous No.16827689]

Thank god for based immies, a society that fights this fucking hard and loathes the idea of children should vanish honestly

[Anonymous No.16827698]

>>16827688
why does rape matter? it's still a life

[Anonymous No.16827701]

>>16827688
>I am against it in every case besides rape, incest, extreme genetic defects, or if it threatens the mother.
Like I said, you're in favor of abortion under certain circumstances. You're in good company, most smart people are pro-choice.

[Anonymous No.16827703]

>>16827681
Instead of repeating to me what i said, answer the question. How does it make you feel?

[Anonymous No.16827710]

a fetus is not a person
there you go

[Anonymous No.16827715]

>>16827688
So you want to murder babies because of rape or incest? Have fun burning in the lake of fire.

[Anonymous No.16827721]

>16827688
>16827710
>>16827701
You people who want to dehumanize innocent and defenseless children make me sick.

[Anonymous No.16827724]

Her body, her choice.

[Anonymous No.16827726]

>>16827657
>and a single cell isn't the same as a human being with thoughts, memories, hopes and ambitions.
They are. They come from the same material source or arche. Why are you taking a cell in a vacuum? The cell has a past and a future, and the future of it is a human being. The soul of an animal perishes when it dies. A human that came 1 million years after a great ape is not that same great ape.

[Anonymous No.16827731]

>>16827701
I am not pro-choice. I would have abortion illegal in all cases if it were possible. Do not lump me in with you sick baby-murdering bastards.

[Anonymous No.16827732]

>>16827726
No it doesn't. A fetus could be, whereas a human is.

[Anonymous No.16827736]

>>16827724
Why doesnt she make better choices with her body in the first place?

[Anonymous No.16827742]

>>16827648
>whats to stop me from genociding all of africa
>what to stop me from saying that sub 115 is retarded, because really it is, and then killing those people?
What indeed? The answer is power, would that we had it.
>you just want to kill babies because your pathetic thats its, theres nothing more
No, you clearly didn’t read my original post, in which I said that killing healthy babies should not be allowed. I just don’t want people so deficient as to need constant care from birth to death without ever developing into intellectual functionality (even failing by the standards of proles) to exist when it’s easy to prevent it very early.
Your forefathers wisely set aside their compassion, steeled themselves for what needed to be done.

[Anonymous No.16827743]

I'm pro-choice because it's the only thing that makes sense. Whether to go through with something so difficult and important is a decision that is best left up to the father of the child, and if he's not in the picture, the mother's father.

[Anonymous No.16827744]

>>16827726
> The soul of an animal perishes when it dies.
Sorry, I don't subscribe to belief in magic.

>The cell has a past and a future, and the future of it is a human being.
Under certain circumstances, yes. Under other circumstances, no. Just like an unfertilized egg. Or are we arguing that unfertilized eggs are people too?

[Anonymous No.16827748]

>>16827736
Part of the human experience, which aborted fetus' will never have.

[Anonymous No.16827750]

>>16827731
Why isn't it possible in cases of rape and incest?

[Anonymous No.16827753]

>>16827701
I am actually generally in favor of abortion in cases of medical need and think it should be an option for someone who feels they would be unable to adequately care for the child. I think that abortions should be reduced by sex education and contraception to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and strong social programs to reduce the number of people unable to support their children. We should also be encouraging men and women to stay together to reduce reliance on these programs.
Having said all of this I fucking despise the term "pro-choice" because I feel like it lumps me in with pseud redditors who think that abortion is somehow empowering to women or who think that the hypocrisy of republican politicans is somehow an argument against the assertion that a fetus counts as a human being.

[Anonymous No.16827757]

>>16827732
Take a simple counterfactual example. Were the abortion not to happen, the fetus would become a human, ceteris paribus. This is not true of a great ape and human. If all great apes were wiped out, humans may as well have come in the same, albeit a lot later. I agree with the could/is distinction. I just think disregarding all potentialities no matter how relevant they are to human life is dishonest.

[Anonymous No.16827758]

>>16827698
Because the child of a rapist being born is rewarding the rapist with the passing on of his genes even though he committed a severe crime to do it. Criminals should not be rewarded.

[Anonymous No.16827761]

>>16827748
Well yeah theyre denied it retroactively

[Anonymous No.16827767]

>>16824885
> Is abortion okay
Literally what race is it

[Anonymous No.16827769]

>>16827750
He’s saying that in an ideal world, rapes and incest wouldn’t happen, so there would be no need for abortions.

[Anonymous No.16827774]

>>16827758
You can punish the rapist without killing the child, which is innocent.

[Anonymous No.16827789]

>>16827744
>Under certain circumstances, yes. Under other circumstances, no. Just like an unfertilized egg.
Under the circumstances where it is, you do not abort it. Where it is not, the mother is not responsible for the death. Since the fetus becoming a human is extremely likely, more likely than not, the mother should proceed and act as such.
>Or are we arguing that unfertilized eggs are people too?
Do unfertilized eggs, if left in a normal woman, usually turn into babies without any action from the woman that would cause it to do so? Do you not understand causality? Or is potentiality the problem here?

[Anonymous No.16827792]

>>16826862
They are “human” because that is a biological definition based on genotype and species, personhood is lacking.

[Anonymous No.16827798]

Yeah I went into unrational pure monkeybrain mode cuz i want nut in da pussy but after the fact I became a functional adult again and realized the obvious consequence of doing so. Humans are such a meme

[Anonymous No.16827807]

>>16827798
you'll understand once you've had sex

[Anonymous No.16827815]

>>16827689
what is an immie?

[Anonymous No.16827819]

>>16827761
>retroactively
why do acephalus americans love to butcher the english language

[Anonymous No.16827830]

>>16827807
Had plenty its just funny how pro choice is the rational choice but getting into the scenario at all is generally irrational

[Anonymous No.16827831]

>>16827757
Not for certainty though, and that's the point. If it were certain that a fetus would be born alive, then it would be a valid statement.

[Anonymous No.16827840]

>>16827774
Keeping the child around at all biologically rewards the rapist. You can still punish the rapist, but you cannot avoid rewarding him so long as the child lives, blood ties (or genetics in modern terms) are not inconsequential unless you’re a retard that believes everyone is totally separate by tabula rasa (which isn’t real).

[Anonymous No.16827848]

>>16827840
I don't think the rapist cares at all whether or not his kid exists. I don't see how it would be a reward.

[Anonymous No.16827853]

>>16827840
which rape genes are we talking about here? you don't seem to care that much about the child, much like the pro-choicers

[Anonymous No.16827855]

>>16827848
a personal supposition is not enough to dismantle an argument

[Anonymous No.16827858]

>>16827399
>let women
yikes and cringe

[Anonymous No.16827864]

>>16827815
Immigrants

[Anonymous No.16827866]

>>16827848
it's about muh bloodlines

[Anonymous No.16827869]

>>16827855
It's not a supposition. The purpose of a rape is not to pass on one's genes.

[Anonymous No.16827872]

>>16827853
>which rape genes
The white ones. They're the same genes.

[Anonymous No.16827881]

>>16827731
> I am against it in every case besides rape, incest, extreme genetic defects, or if it threatens the mother.
This is literally the definition of pro-choice. Look, don't get upset. I agree with you exactly. I don't think you should be aborting eight-month fetuses that were consensually conceived or anything, but so long as they're the result of rape or incest, it should be allowed. No need to fight; it seems our views mostly overlap.

[Anonymous No.16827937]

>>16827881
It is not you retard. Around 80% of women get abortions due to financial reasons. These are not legitimate reasons and pro-choicers support this use of abortion. To them, it's not a fetus' right to life issue but a women's rights issue. Stop using fringe cases that barely happen to paint me as a pro-choicer. I don't care about 8 month 7 month whatever, if it is past the zygote stage it is immoral to abort it, period. It is more pragmatic in certain cases to do it, as in it is the lesser evil.
You live in a completely different world if
> I am against it in every case besides rape, incest, extreme genetic defects, or if it threatens the mother.
constitutes "pro-choice" to you. This has been the opinion of the majority of Republican pro-lifers since like 2008.

[Anonymous No.16827977]

>>16827869
That is literally the purpose of all normal sex, retard biological illiterate, even other sex between mating pairs exists for the purpose of strengthening bonds that aid in raising offspring. Sex came into being, literally for the production of children regardless of what belief system you subscribe to, rape bearing children is success for the rapist on the most fundamental level. People want to have sex because their biology wants them to reproduce regardless of whether they consciously acknowledge it.
>>16827848
Whether he cares or not doesn’t matter, it’s a reward whether he sees it that way or not.
>>16827853
>which rape genes are we talking about here?
I’m talking about the rapist successfully spreading his genes, a biological victory which should not be tolerated of a criminal given that the victory was a product of his crime.
>you don't seem to care that much about the child
I care about family ties, the children are not protected from the sins of the father. Why should the victim of a crime be forced to accommodate the continuation of the criminals lineage.
>>16827872
Racist desu
>>16827866
>muh bloodlines
>implying that bloodlines (or genetic lineages) are unimportant
>NOOOO, YOU CANT UNDERSTAND BIOLOGICAL IMPERATIVES! YOU HAVE TO PRETEND THAT EVERYONE IS TOTALLY INDIVIDUAL!

[Anonymous No.16827980]

>>16827977
>That is literally the purpose of all normal sex, retard biological illiterate
We are talking about rape. Rape is a power thing. Its goal is not to create sexual offspring.

[Anonymous No.16828000]

>>16827980
>We are talking about rape. Rape is a power thing. Its goal is not to create sexual offspring.
By “normal sex” I meant heterosexual intercourse, for which the goal is reproduction regardless of consent.
>no bro it’s about power
That’s a retarded sociological interpretation that ignores obvious deeper truth. Sexual intercourse is meant to be about reproduction regardless of whether those involved consciously acknowledge that or even if they try to prevent it

[Anonymous No.16828002]

>>16827977
larpy post, very cringe, please kill yourself

[Anonymous No.16828020]

>>16828002
>No argument
You first

[Anonymous No.16828045]

>>16826200
>it's not a human until the exact moment its head begins to pop out of the vagina
>the head is a human being but the legs are still just a clump of cells since you can't see them yet!

you "people" are genuine subhuman refuse lol

[Anonymous No.16828063]

>>16827977
what if the rapist's child has already been born? if it's not okay to kill it then, clearly there's a difference between abortion and infanticide

[Anonymous No.16828097]

>>16824885
Now, I don’t wanna share my opinions here, but I would like to add a perspective many women talk about. They argue that abortion should be legal because it’s “freedom” and they shouldn’t have “my body controlled by men”. You guys’ thoughts on this?

[Anonymous No.16828105]

>>16828097
Liberal conception of freedom that has no relation to any existing state of affairs. Red herring.

[Anonymous No.16828114]

>>16828097
Sounds reasonable.

[Anonymous No.16828133]

>>16828097
Why would you care about what women have to say?

[Anonymous No.16828144]

>>16828097
Nobody can claim ownership of another human being.
We call that slavery and it's been outlawed in all parts of the actual free world.

Retarded, low value modernist whores can't grasp this because they cannot picture a world that doesn't revolve around them.

[Anonymous No.16828154]

You can logically justify whatever you want. Anything. You have to wonder about the people who justify killing life. Though the truth is they are just repeating what they were told to like a good sheeeep ;)

[Anonymous No.16828162]

>>16824885
>>16824908
>>16824941
>>16824956
>>16824962
>>16824970
>>16824973
>>16824974
>>16824984
>>16824991
>>16824993
>>16825015
>>16825000
ok first this belongs on /pol/ not on /lit/ i barely browse this board but even i can tell that
second abortion is and will always be MORALLY WRONG no matter if its legal or illegal
>but my body my choice
yeah i agree your body your choice: you choose to fuck without a condom and without contraceptives there are 1000 ways to prevent pregnancy nowdays and you didnt used one beacuse you choose to be a cum dump, second the fetus is NOT your body he has a diferent DNA and is proven to have a organism and eventual contience and a soul of its own
>but its just a clump of cells
him and every other human on earth, your point? he will die if removed from the womb the same way youll die if i lock you in a room without food or oxygen, HE DIES therefore he is alive
>but muh empowerment
stfu you whored yourself for a men who cumed and dumped, you deserve to be pregnant give the child to a orphanage
> but he will become a criminal checkmate!
yeah he might the diference is he isnt one, and people can only be judged on acts they commited not on acts they might in the future comit, people deserve the benefit of the doubt and if he becomes a rapist or smth in the future dont worry he will be excecuted if in a country were the morals are upheld
>but you will handicap me ecconomically
no just give the kid to a orphanage but again even if you dont you made your bed
END OF ARGUMENT

[Anonymous No.16828174]

>>16828097
its not their body the fetus has independent DNA making it another individual, they were the ones who whored themselves again there are 1000 contraceptives in this world use one, the best one being not having sex in the first place

[Anonymous No.16828181]

>>16825878
Do you even live in reality? Mat leave is a thing now. Your scenario paints an extremely specific pictures of a woman who is dumped as she is also out of a job and has no family she can fall back and rely on for a temporary period of time.

All to make your shit fucking argument. Off yourself.

[Anonymous No.16828182]

>>16824885
>If that is the case, would it be right to kill people in a coma?
People can feel pain in a coma.
How did pointing this out not /thread the entire thread?

[Anonymous No.16828189]

>>16828162
Souls doesn't exist.

[Anonymous No.16828190]

>>16828182
THEY CAN'T RETARD AHAHAHA
do you think rocks feel pain?

[Anonymous No.16828225]

>>16828144
>Retarded, low value modernist whores
>>16828162
>stfu you whored yourself for a men who cumed and dumped, you deserve to be pregnant
>>16828174
>they were the ones who whored themselves
Holy shit all of this resentment. It really isn't a canard when they say so many of you are more motivated by a desire to punish women than to care for the unborn.
>the best one being not having sex in the first place
how often do you have sex?

[Anonymous No.16828229]

>>16828190
There's plenty of coma patients who describe having dreamt during the duration. It's not like their consciousness has been completely wiped out in all cases.

[Anonymous No.16828236]

>>16828162
it should be criminal to be this retarded

[Anonymous No.16828237]

>>16824941
A fetus is life that was created.

[Anonymous No.16828244]

>>16824908
>never read a decent argument supporting the practice of abortion
if it's a nigger

[Anonymous No.16828246]

>>16824974
the fetus has conciousness it doesn't have an ego.

[Anonymous No.16828256]

>>16828097
A fetus isn't their body it's another individual that they have the responsibility to care for lest they face child abuse and negligence charges

[Anonymous No.16828258]

>>16824908
>a decent argument
There's a utilitarian argument to be made. Society isn't made happier by lots of unplanned and often unwanted children, creates instability in people's lives.

[Anonymous No.16828271]

>>16828258
the unhappiness of a whore who has to look after her child rather than get drunk and suck dick in a toilet stall is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR outweighed by the happiness of a new soul wandering the world

[Anonymous No.16828280]

>>16828271
same applies for the fathers too. they can't get drunk and yell at a sports game broadcast in a dark pub. ooh no so unhappy =((((

[Anonymous No.16828304]

>>16828236
refute my arguments then nigger
>>16828225
i dont want to ¨punish women¨ although i do belive a good beating should be legalized, beacuse damm (assuming youre female) you deserve it, you have the ez mode on life you get gibs,preference on court and literaly on everything else, and you are born with the duty to create life and give nurishment to a child...and you promptly would dump that all beacuse you wanted to fucking feel good so you let a fucker cum inside? god women are just fucking terrible, seriously i just cant stand women, you have everything handed to you and you complain when we ask you not to kill your unborn child? sometimes i think the fucking muzzies got it right!
as for how many times i got laid? i didnt i mean one time i got molested as a kid but other then that i didnt it wasnt sex tho but still,no im not bad looking, no im not gross or extremly socially retarded, i just dont like the idea of losing my virginity to someone who doesnt hold any fucking meaning to me

[Anonymous No.16828312]

>>16828271
>>16828280
All of society has to suffer these new welfare cases, not just the parents. All this impotent rage at this whore character you keep returning to betrays your ressentiment and emotional incontinence, unless you're false flagging which could also be the case.

[Anonymous No.16828313]

Allow it but the woman who does it should be strongly encouraged to be made sterile.

[Anonymous No.16828321]

>>16828258
you know that people deserve the fucking benefit of the doubt right?

[am/wf enjoyer :^) No.16828344]

>>16824885
a person has had a life of memory and lived consciousness. a fetus has not. seems rather simple, really; why don’t conservatives just admit they hate women and go on with their unhappy lives ?

[Anonymous No.16828350]

>>16828304
>I don't want to punish women
Yes you do, you just said so explicitly in this little tirade.
>i didnt i mean one time i got molested as a kid
You probably deserved it. At least someone got some joy out of you that way.

[Anonymous No.16828354]

>>16828304
>refute my arguments then nigger
further proof of your retardation

[Anonymous No.16828365]

>>16828344
the fetus has its own DNA it is proven that it feels pain, i myself saw a aborted featuses (late term abortion university medicine wing anatomical studies) his face was in utter pain, his mother tried to self abort using a piece of glass the baby was biting his arm in pain while the other hand was in a pushing motion as if to try to push the pain away...and his face was in a expression of pure pain and suffering as if his only experience in this world before even opening his eyes was to feel a glass shard through his lil body... why wont liberals admit they hate childeren and go in with their unhappy lives?

[Anonymous No.16828386]

>>16828350
oh really? i deserved it? very progressive...i deserved to be raped...thats a great take femanon...i am speecheless congratulations...so i suppose that all women who get raped deserve it too right?

[Anonymous No.16828410]

>>16828354
you didnt refuted the argument nigger kys

[Anonymous No.16828427]

>>16828386
Why did you switch to this odd passive agressive, very feminine inflection? And no, obviously not all women deserve rape you retard, I don't hate them like you do.

[Anonymous No.16828429]

>>16826380
>anything that you CAN do is okay

Alright, retard I guess genocide totally fine

[Anonymous No.16828434]

>>16828350
lets take it a step further will we? if i club a woman to death...she deserved it? beacuse if she was a bitch i will get joy out of it, so tell me, please tell me does she deserve it? if i skin a homosexual alive does he deserve it? it brings me joy! so ofc he does! thats all joy based with you people right? i disagreed with women having the ¨right¨ to kill their unborn child, and you promptly said that i deserved to be raped as a kid...so are you saying that my hatred of women isnt fucking justifyed? you just confirmed everything i said about women was true congratulations now please please you made a very good argument for abortion and you convinced me that all life has value...except that of your bloodline...so please abort all your childeren,people like you shouldnt reproduce

[Anonymous No.16828448]

>>16828429
actually y know they make good points i changed my mind...we should make these peoples abortions mandatory...yeah that sounds good: a leftist genocide yeah they convinced me, they should all be aborted...late term too genocide was always fine by my books if the people deserved it...but they are not a people...theyre too low for that...maybe we should just round them up and shoot them! yeah they gave the idea! they should be ok with it! we should do it japanese style too like getting the pregnant leftist women and make lil competitions were we see how many lefty kids we can rip of their bellys while we laugh right? thatd be fun, after all they agree with it

[Anonymous No.16828451]

>>16828434
I just know that being a cum receptacle was probably the most useful function you ever filled in your life. Also I'm not a woman. Also stop being a baby.

[Anonymous No.16828499]

>>16828451
im a uni student, im rich, im well educated, i just told you the molestation wasnt sex proper so i know youre iliterate,i am also a renowed atlethe but that doesnt matter does it beta? i got it now...youre either a beta ¨muh wifes boyfriend¨ type of guy, or youre a literal nigger who wants abortion...beacuse you like to cum and dump and dont want to take responsability for it now is it? you know what brings me confort? youd never say that to my face beta boy, beacuse youre not a real man, and the fact youre resorting to that...proves it you are a nigger, a literal nigger it makes sense now... you are defending abortion beacuse you dont want to take responsability for your actions lol

[Anonymous No.16828524]

>>16828451
>im not a woman
you certainly arent a man

[Anonymous No.16828533]

>>16828499
Did you even make the person cum? It would be another level of uselessness if you weren't even worth raping lol

[Anonymous No.16828541]

>>16828533
i nailed it didnt i? youre just a nigger who doesnt want to take any responsabilities you have as a man...so you support abortion and death of innocent kids...honestly? mate come down to brazil one day! id love to make a churrasco de X9 with you

[Anonymous No.16828565]

>>16828541
>youre just a nigger
>come down to brazil

[Anonymous No.16828577]

>>16828045
Haha yeah, it would be crazy if someone believed those things, wouldn’t it?

[Anonymous No.16828591]

>>16827937
>if it is past the zygote stage it is immoral to abort it, period.
Just so I'm clear, what is your position on aborting zygotes? You've already stated that you're in favor of abortion in general for reasons of rape, incest, the mother's health, etc. -- do you have an even more permissive position when it comes to zygotes, or not? Thanks for taking the time to share your perspectives.

[Anonymous No.16828594]

>>16828565
>brazil is all niggers
>youre retarded
learn geography
pic is the dutch colony of castro see any niggers in the picture?

[Anonymous No.16828598]

>>16827789
>Do unfertilized eggs, if left in a normal woman, usually turn into babies without any action from the woman that would cause it to do so?
Definitely not. The woman has to eat, drink, etc., and of course refrain from taking any action that would terminate the pregnancy.

[Anonymous No.16828607]

>>16827937
>> I am against it in every case besides rape, incest, extreme genetic defects, or if it threatens the mother.
>constitutes "pro-choice" to you. This has been the opinion of the majority of Republican pro-lifers since like 2008.
I know -- at one point such views weren't mainstream at all. I think it's great that even conservatives have finally started coming around on this issue.

[Anonymous No.16828608]

>>16824908
Have sex.

[Anonymous No.16828614]

>>16827937
>It is more pragmatic in certain cases to do it, as in it is the lesser evil.
so when exactly is it a "lesser evil" to murder a fucking baby? you people who pretend your not pro choice make me fucking sick at least the other ones are honest about their twisted beliefs

[Anonymous No.16828620]

>>16828608
And risk impregnating a woman with a fetus which she might then abort??? You monster!

[Anonymous No.16828625]

GUYS GUYS we're all fighting over nothing. If we kill the woman first then the whole issue of abortion becomes a moot point.

[Anonymous No.16828627]

>>16826680
Personhood is a fucking stupid dead end abortion argument. If you think a zygote is a person then you're a moron. If you think a 3rd trimester fetus isn't a person you're a moron.
It basically doesn't matter though because the mother is definitely a person and there's no scenario other than pregnancy where you would think about making someone legally obligated to use their organs as a life support system for another person.

[Anonymous No.16828643]

>>16828627
Fuck off you baby raper. How about I stab you in the head with a drill like they do when they abort the baby and see how you like it

[Anonymous No.16828657]

>>16828565
look youre just a uneducated plebe nigger living in america doing jack shit just go abort your kids and abandon your responsabilities as a father in the future as the piece of human trash you are, your manner of speech and way of acting are so unmainly i mistook you for a woman, you are a excuse of a men and without a doubt the best argument for abortion i ever saw

[Anonymous No.16828665]

>>16828627
Exactly it’s a stupid argument just how like you’re a fucking brainwashed psychopath for thinking there is nothing wrong with abortion because of such a silly concept!

[Anonymous No.16828677]

Interesting how people who think that a woman has the right to abort the fetus if she so wishes is often the type of person who thinks a country has a moral obligation to accept as much refugees as possible - while the people who think abortion is immoral often show little to no concern about the lives of refugees. It's almost like people don't care about life per se and pick and choose the lives which they find important based on their personal taste.

[Anonymous No.16828693]

>>16828677
Yeah, I care more about human beings than about tiny clumps of cells. Otherwise I would probably consider it genocide to wash my hands.

[Anonymous No.16828707]

>>16828693
So are you pro-life after the point the fetus becomes conscious?

[Anonymous No.16828715]

>>16824885
But people in comas ARE allowed to die sometimes, if there is a good reason for it.

[Anonymous No.16828716]

>>16828657
>so unmainly
ungo kungo me no speak english

[Anonymous No.16828722]

>>16828707
I guess. I’ll leave it to the scientists to estimate when suffering becomes possible. So long as the woman has a good window of time to get an abortion if she wants one.

Don’t get me wrong, I *wish* civilized people were breeding faster, but banning abortion is just a nonstarter.

[Anonymous No.16828726]

>>16828541
>brazil
So you should know the negative consequences of indiscriminate breeding better than anyone. If someone taking a pill and shitting out a meaningless, gelatinous lump wheneverever they've messed up is the price we need to pay in order to avoid becoming more like you, I think that's a price worth paying.

[Anonymous No.16828730]

>>16828722
>I'll leave it to the experts to tell me when to murder a baby

insect

[Anonymous No.16828732]

>>16828677
One should strike you as more hypocritical to the other though, and it's clear which.

[Anonymous No.16828742]

>>16826666
Other “life” forms. Vitalism has nothing to due with this.

[Anonymous No.16828745]

>>16828730
>REEEE ME ANGRY AND CALL NAMES

[Anonymous No.16828754]

>>16828730
Yes.

[Anonymous No.16828758]

>>16828162
>proven
>soul
I dont want to even finish this spiel of unbridled stupidity

[Anonymous No.16828761]

>>16828365
nice anecdote retard

[Anonymous No.16828763]

>>16828758
Fedora athiest detected

[Anonymous No.16828766]

>>16828722
Then you can make your position consistent, but you would have to ban abortions at the third trimester.

[Anonymous No.16828769]

>>16828365
>the fetus has its own DNA
A fucking banana has its own DNA, what are you talking about

[Anonymous No.16828773]

>>16828732
Well, both seem obviously contradictory to me

[Anonymous No.16828775]

>>16828766
Like I said, I’ll leave it to the scientists to figure out when suffering becomes possible. Anyway, I think it would be more helpful to try to arrange society so that having an unexpected baby isn’t a life-ruining disaster.

[Anonymous No.16828779]

>>16824885
Just accept that you've been sold a lie and murdering babies doesn't bring freedom or happiness. Youre just lining others pockets and contributing to the downfall of the west.

[Anonymous No.16828813]

>>16828779
We see it in country after country as they modernize and people are being pulled out of abiect poverty, that reproductive rights is an important step in raising the standards of living and ushering in equality between the sexes. There's no argument you can make against this that wouldn't be based simply on your feelies.

[Anonymous No.16828818]

>>16828779
Stop whining.

[Anonymous No.16828844]

Anyway, so the significant difference is that the body in the coma existed previously as a person and the fetus or w/e has yet to exist as a person.

[Anonymous No.16828889]

>>16824885
>The fetus will eventually grow and become conscious thus abort = murder
Mmmmm make sense.

>Do abortion anyway
>Pregnant again after 6 months
>Now raise the child
If they had not abort the first fetus, the existence of second fetus which would eventually become conscious would be prevented, thus equals to murder.
>wearing condom prevent a possible fertilization, equals to murder
>having seck with beautiful sweet gf/soulmate prevent a possible fertilization with the landwhale nextdoor, equals to murder
Using your logic, OP, every second we murdered infinite person.

[Anonymous No.16829104]

>"Abort the fetus, you will regret it; don't abort the fetus you will regret it. Abort the fetus or don't abort the fetus you will regret it either way." - Soren Kierkeegaard

[Anonymous No.16829158]

>>16828889
I'm pro-choice but this is retard logic.

[Anonymous No.16829194]

>>16828162
>yeah he might the diference is he isnt one, and people can only be judged on acts they commited not on acts they might in the future comit, people deserve the benefit of the doubt and if he becomes a rapist or smth in the future dont worry he will be excecuted if in a country were the morals are upheld
Based

[Anonymous No.16829226]

>>16828181
Most people have no family that can support them, or is willing to support them.

[Anonymous No.16829281]

As a Nazi and pedophile, I am strongly pro-life.

[Anonymous No.16829357]

>>16827125
You can have sex, risking pregnancy. You can have sex, expecting and hoping for pregnancy. But humans don't have agency in that. I can't make my dick shoot out infertile sperm at will, my girlfriend can't turn off her ovaries.
I don't want to get rid of moral responsibility, I want the weight of the decision to lie solely on the bearers of children. It is immoral to abort and barely anyone does it lightheartedly. I'm advocating personal responsibility and bodily freedom.
The rape debate is boring. Even the most die-hard pro-lifers will waver, but it doesn't add anything interesting to the discussion. It is still always going to be about how much the rights of one human being trump the rights of another. Unless you argue like I do, there's no easy way out of this.

[Anonymous No.16829826]

>>16828410
you didn't refuted!

[Anonymous No.16829905]

>>16826734
>No, because a coma patient is not dependent on someone else's biology to remain alive,
didn't have to read any further to find out you're sub 80 iq