[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 44 KB, 850x567, aquinas.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16815458 No.16815458 [Reply] [Original]

>if the soul is united to the body as mover to movable, it will be in the soul's power to be separated from the body at will and be reunited to it at will. And this is clearly false.
>Therefore the soul is the form of the body
What about self-induced near-death and similar experiences? Did Aquinas seriously think he could outwit Plato by this?

>> No.16815553

The amount of cope official orthodox Christians have to do to dance around the pre-existence of their soul and The Nearness of humans to God is proof of their sinful nature. His reason is not sound at all. but it's nice to see people making strawmen back then. It's best not to play his game and become confined to his own reason.

>> No.16815580

>>16815553
>The Nearness of humans to God
How near to God are we talking? Christians are hopefully aware that humans are one step above animals because they possess intellect and can follow divine laws.

>> No.16815640

The soul is the form of the body like the universe is the form of the logos. just because it is part of something does not mean it is the whole of itself. Christianity generally accepts that there is a body, a soul, and a spirit to a person. I wonder how he defind spirit since apostle Paul said that his Spirit can be with someone when he's not there with them bodily.

>> No.16815669

>>16815553
>The amount of cope official orthodox Christians have to do to dance around the pre-existence of their soul and The Nearness of humans to God is proof of their sinful nature.
Wut, that's not true. We have something called the 'nous' (of the heart) which basically helps us to understand when we're in the presence of God the more we develop it.

>> No.16815704

>>16815458
> it will be in the soul's power to be separated from the body at will and be reunited to it at will.
This doesn’t seem to necessarily follow, what if God ordained that souls be the movers and bodies the moved, but also made it so that souls could not leave their bodies at will?

>> No.16815725

>>16815580
The Greek word for soul is related to the word for cold. The idea is that the mind cooled off and became a created being. That we are animals is obvious. it is natural that an animal would think that it is an animal because it uses its animal self to determine what reality is. That this is all we are is not obvious. Everything can be traced back to God because God is the only one that could possibly exist. What is not God is just a divine thought inside of God's mind.

>> No.16815770

>>16815725
>>16815704
>what if God ordained that souls be the movers and bodies the moved, but also made it so that souls could not leave their bodies at will?
He tries to refute Plato's theory in a different way before using this argument. Basically if the soul were the mover of the body, external substances and forms wouldn't excite the arousal of humans, and he claims that the soul and the body are moved by external objects and not by themselves.

>> No.16816071

>>16815770
If there are different layers of reality then there is room for other kinds of movement besides the material. A big theme of Christianity is trying to break away from the passions of the body and be led by the spirit. The spiritual world transcends this natural world and it shines through this natural world like a light so that the natural world is both its own thing and also used as a medium and symbol to reveal something higher. the idea is that cause and effect is not something that is only horizontal to this reality but there is a cause and effect that is vertical having to do with other worlds. That this reality effects itself is obvious. But how could it be that the soul cannot move itself if a person has a spirit? I still want to know his definition of spirit, because it's not even in the same category as objective reality is.

>> No.16816144

>>16815640
why is the universe the form of the logos? wtf does that even mean?

>> No.16816152

>>16815458
Which question is that from in the ST? It would be of great help since I have been writing about the soul and body in the context of Ecclesiastes 3:21

>> No.16816172
File: 283 KB, 600x802, 1605146577839.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16816172

>>16815458
>self-induced near-death
Death is of the body is it not? Near-death experiences are still only "near" death, it's not death. As far as separation of soul from body goes, I'd expect that to happen in death, but you don't see a dead person die before they're actually dead, and you being alive have little ground for saying that the soul is or isn't of the body if your criterion for establishing this is whether or not it's able to "die". Conversely, Aquinas and Plato are only conjecturing. Maybe you could argue for something like astral projection proving the soul's intangibility and immortality, and separation from body, but I'm not sure.

>> No.16816204

>>16815458
if the soul is united to the body like oil to water then the body has no claim over it, the soul being substantially separate cannot be affected by the body, so how does sensory experience influence thought? if the soul effects the body as thought to will and life as power to move then the soul must have the capacity to effect the body, but how can what is immaterial effect what is material? Aristotle saw the soul as containing life, the mind and will in a human, if these things dont come into being when a human being does then by definition what comes into being will not be a human, so the soul being the most actual principle of a human becomes its form, a human being is a rational soul, Plato puts the soul as a world soul apart from the universe as an ideal, how the regular old human soul participates in this world souls soulless i dont really understand but i think Aristotle makes more sense here

>> No.16816298

>>16815458
he was probably a pleb who could not astral project.

>> No.16816599

>>16816071
>I still want to know his definition of spirit, because it's not even in the same category as objective reality is.
I have no idea what spirit is supposed to be in this context. If you refer to the intellect, Aquinas says that it's merely a power of the soul. You can find his arguments in depth in the second book of the Summa Contra Gentiles.

>> No.16817911

>>16816144
If the universe is anything of God it is something like his skin or hair.

>> No.16818001

Astral projection.. oobe... Aquinas is a Brainlet

>> No.16818474
File: 18 KB, 262x400, DeAnima.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16818474

>>16815458
It's referring to Aristotle's hylomorphism which holds that forms take physical being via matter in our own realm instead of the dualism of Plato which holds that forms exists in a separate realm while our own is a reflection. Basically when a body comes to life the soul comes to be and when a body dies the soul dies with it.
As per usual with these things, immortality of the soul is an abiblical concept.

>> No.16818601

>>16815458


HOW DO «NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES», WHETHER SELFINDUCED, OR OTHERWISE, CONTRADICT THE CITED ASSERTION, ACCORDING TO YOU?

IMPROVE YOUR READING COMPREHENSION.

>> No.16819201
File: 414 KB, 500x370, tumblr_lpljgmFH061qaiaf5o1_500.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16819201

>>16815458
The soul is regarded as the form of the body only in a radical, selfcongruent sense, whilst the body is regarded as the form of the soul only in an appearential sense.

The soul's form is perfect when, either: the soul's body is regarded in its pure, essential aetheric manifestation, being totally integral to the spirit. or: its biophysical body/ies become/s metamerged/sublimated within the soul --thus realizing the soul--, and temporospatially sealed within the soul's glorified body, which constitutes a synthesis of both of the aforementioned bodies --the soul does not get to leave the body "at will", but the fact that the soul is able to choose whether to return to the biophysical body during certain "near death.experiences", and, ultimately, that it does return, is a testament to the soul's will to acquire a form --to become something.

>>16818001
The soul is not seperated from the biophysical body during astral/superconscious travel.

>> No.16819320

>>16819201
>The soul is regarded as the form of the body [...] in a radical, selfcongruent sense...

>> No.16819532

My flesh is just a representation and tool that I used to exist in this reality. My soul is my body. My appearance reflects my spiritual nature. Bodies are an appearance, a symbol and a representation. I logout of My Flesh every time I sleep. Hell even my pet dog astral projects, he is known as hellzebub to the ones he torments in his astral projected state. It's no wonder he mostly sleeps. But what is it to my soul if it's trapped In the Flesh form for a day? a human lifetime is nothing for an immortal being. What do you think time is like if the universe is a tiny Speck in the rest of reality? Do you really believe that time is uniform? Is time even fundamental to an eternal being? Time seems like one potential state of being. It is certainly a reality for the flesh. How do you know that the soul is not free? for all you know I could be pausing this flesh experience for millions of years and then resuming the ignorance of it and it could still seem like a uniform experience. The flesh experience is the flesh experience and if the rules are that it shouldn't be interrupted too much and that it should exist in its own sphere then that is what it would be like.