Do Christians believe in free will and Self determination?

[Anonymous No.16755449]

Seems like they belive God had a set plan for their lives and deviating from that "plan" is tantamount to sin

[Anonymous No.16755471]

That person could have gone to therapy and learned how to forgive themselves without starting to believe ancient mythology

[Anonymous No.16755488]

>>16755471
Anon... It's just a comic

[Anonymous No.16755494]

>>16755471
Yeah guys just believe modern mythology instead.

[Anonymous No.16755498]

>>16755449
Christians have to believe in free will because without it they have no legitimate defense for why God allows evil to occur in the world, which is explained away as the result of free will exercised by free individuals.

[Anonymous No.16755500]

>>16755449
>all Christians think the same
Look up agnostic Christianity

[Anonymous No.16755505]

>>16755449
I did like 3 things. I shouldn't be judged proportionally to someone who did 3000 things

[Anonymous No.16755506]

>>16755471
...but why would you need to go to therapy in the first place if you just used a healthy amount of religiosity instead?

[Anonymous No.16755510]

>>16755494
philosophy bad
>>16755449
free will is one of fundamental traits of humans as designed by god

[Anonymous No.16755514]

>>16755498
Theodicies are horseshit
God is all powerful but can't do something. Bullshit.

[Anonymous No.16755515]

>>16755510
oh no redditors are treating 'philosophy' like a set dogma like they did to science
>I FUCKING LOVE PHILOSOPHY
oh goddd no

[Anonymous No.16755534]

>>16755515
you called christianity ancient mythology and call me a redditor?
ironic

[Anonymous No.16755537]

>>16755514
I suppose. Even with the consideration that free will absolves God from the evil performed by people (or Satan), this still doesn't resolve the problem of harm caused by natural disasters. At any rate, if God created everything, this means he also created all that is evil or which propagates evil.

[Anonymous No.16755540]

>>16755534
it is ancient mythology, that doesn't make it a bad thing tho

[Anonymous No.16755543]

>>16755505
>I did like 3 things. I shouldn't be judged proportionally to someone who did 3000 things

I figure this is why the Catholics created purgatory and circles of hell.

[Anonymous No.16755549]

>>16755543
Christianity is a honeypot and all Christians (and only Christians) go to hell

[Anonymous No.16755587]

>>16755449
opinions differ. There's too many types of Christian and too many too-loose dogmas to make a sweeping statement. Calvinists were certainly determinists. I think most protestants believe in some shaky kind of free will that either folds into gods plan as part of a long path to understanding and salvation, or proves your character and ability to be saved, thus earning your eventual judgment.
Me, I'm one of these vacuous determinists, where there's no real possibility of anything non-actual occurring, but not knowing what will be actual makes the distinction practically meaningless. I also don't believe in souls, but think there's a slim chance of physical resurrection and transmutation into a physical holy immortal body. Never seen anything like it happen, but I figure it could.

[Anonymous No.16755819]

>>16755498
>Implying God cares about human moral standards

[Anonymous No.16755831]

>>16755471
Because you have to pay hundreds for somebody else to band aid your pain?

I came out of the book of Matthews better, than any soul listening to my problems.

[Anonymous No.16755936]

>>16755471
Yeah just go to a professional advice-giver instead of a community that will support you and give your life some purpose.

[Anonymous No.16756067]

>>16755819
thats the whole point of catholicism, retard

[Anonymous No.16756119]

>>16755471
incoherent tho. I will never feel cosmic forgiveness from myself. need to believe its God, or it dont count. this is logic

[Anonymous No.16757103]

>>16755449
>Is all powerful
>His creation becomes corrupt
>Punishes his creation instead of taking the responsibility on himself as the all powerful creator
It's actually stunning any thinking person takes this rubbish seriously

[Anonymous No.16757209]

>>16755449
Depends on who you ask. I grew up with the idea that god does have a plan for you but you need to take your own steps to follow his plan. If not, then I guess the plan is just void as usually if you’re not following his set “plan” you’ve probably walked away from the path of religion and into one of supposed degeneracy. Don’t take my word for it though, i dropped a lot of my faith by the time high school started.

[Anonymous No.16757243]

>>16757103
He took responsibility by flooding the earth and incarnating to teach us and die for us

[Anonymous No.16758641]

>>16757243
So mass murder and a weird suicidal human sacrifice? Seems like a very healthy mindset

[Anonymous No.16759023]

>>16758641
>mass murder
nothing of value was lost
>weird suicidal human sacrifice
No, there's your "murder." But He'll forgive you anon. You just have to repent and ask for it.

[Anonymous No.16759068]

>>16758641
Christ died to destroy the gates of death so that man may find eternal life abd achieve theosis, stop falling for Roman crypto-Jewish nonsense

[Anonymous No.16759085]

>>16755505
You don't even know how many things you did. Don't do your own sin accounting. You're human so you suck at it.

The Bhuddists understand this as well vis a vis karma. Their answer is you have no idea how much karma you need to pay off before you can achieve moksha so just do whatever veneration of the Buddha you're taught and that removes your karma.

Also, from the infinite perspective of God, all sin burdens aren't much different. And you have your original sin.

[Anonymous No.16759086]

Believing in God is schizophrenia.

[Anonymous No.16759119]

>>16759086
So practically all of your ancestors were schizos but you somehow escaped the curse?
Sorry anon but schizophrenia is genetic. With that kind of family history you definitely have it.

[Anonymous No.16759125]

>>16755471
Jesus forgives you for this post

[Anonymous No.16759134]

>>16755831
>Because you have to pay hundreds for somebody
insurance

[Anonymous No.16759173]

>>16759119
>schizophrenia is genetic
Not only genetic, you psycho.You need medical intervention to cure your schizophrenia.

[Anonymous No.16759346]

>>16759173
Agreed. Thankfully the Church has many doctors.

[Anonymous No.16759372]

>>16759119
Old good new bad

[Anonymous No.16759373]

Hey, guys, I am looking for the answer, any feedback is appreciated.
Isn't it selfish to become Christian?
If you understand that is the only path to salvation and eternal life at first place how can you become an honest follower of Christ?

[Anonymous No.16759394]

>>16759346
That's the same answer a drug addict would say.
"Drugs are my only cure"

When in reality, drugs are the problem.

I pity you, it's rough to feel lonely and to find comfort in one's imagination, but your imaginary friend doesn't exist.

And not because other mentally ill people tell you your imaginary friend exists means that it does.

[Anonymous No.16759433]

>>16755449
This is an example of irrelevant theology. Anybody who bothers with stuff like predestination are straying from the path.

[Anonymous No.16759463]

>>16759373
>how can you become an honest follower of Christ?
What do you mean by honest follower?

[Anonymous No.16759473]

>>16759394
>Aristotle was mentally ill
Richard Dawkins isn't going to answer the question of infinite regress for you.

[Anonymous No.16759493]

>>16759373
Christ calls you to avoid sin, love your fellow man, and believe in him. He doesn't call you to became whatever your idea of perfection is. You're not God so it's probably a dumb idea anyway.

[Anonymous No.16759566]

>>16755471
God's forgiveness is not the sum total of Christianity, it's a comic.

[Anonymous No.16759624]

>>16757103
>>Is all powerful
Yes
>>His creation becomes corrupt
Yes. The result of free will. If they weren't subject to this, they would be no different than irrational creatures and unconciousness matter as far as God is concerned. God created man for Himself. The sufferings, dilemmas and all evils and the manner we bear them all lead to a more perfect product. While few are saved, the ones that are were made perfect, authentically perfect, not through a fiat of his will but our own through attaching and aligning ours with his, the ultimate end for which we are created. This is clear in scripture as God did not say let there be man, unlike all His other acts in Genesis. He belabored to breath life itself into man.
>>Punishes his creation instead of taking the responsibility on himself as the all powerful creator
They punish themselves. They turned away from the immutable good toward inferior matter, which through divine eyes is abject and contemptible. The insult is accordingly infinite. Not only do God and the Saints not care about this outcome, they rejoice at it. The weed harvested with the wheat is not spared. It is burned.

[Anonymous No.16759658]

>>16759394
Ah, yes, fallacies, come to me.

[Anonymous No.16759664]

>>16759473

[Anonymous No.16759669]

>>16755471
FPBP, Christians seething

[Anonymous No.16759670]

>>16755471
Jesus forgiving you and you forgiving yourself for non-selfish reasons is one and the same. You form one unity in the actus purus.

[Anonymous No.16759675]

>>16755449
>Do Christians believe in free will and Self determination?
No. Everything that occurs is foreordained by God.

[Anonymous No.16759681]

>>16755449
>Seems like they belive God had a set plan for their lives and deviating from that "plan" is tantamount to sin
First off, this is a fascinating point to make because in a way you're right, but also there's quite a lot of freedom too.

Really you have to stop being a philosopher and realize the holiness of the everyday. The plan it would seem, that God has for us is that we tend to his earth, for he made man a gardener from the beginning (Genesis 2:15). Philosophers have generally seen mankind's purpose as that of a thinker, but God's plan for us is that we are mainly physical labourers. This is the problem for many philosophers, since Christianity seems to them like a poor garment for the mind, but in fact the mind is better the less it thinks about philosophy.

[Anonymous No.16759685]

>>16755471
Therapy is the gayest modern shit.
>Instead of following the advice of my ancestors, I'll take mind-altering drugs and probably have some jewish asshole tell me I'm a tranny.

[Anonymous No.16759688]

>>16759624
And yet he know it would happen before he even made them. Absolute brainlet religion

[Anonymous No.16759704]

>>16755449
Some Pr*testants don't believe in free will (see Luther's Bondage of the Will and Calvin's Institutes), but free will is an inherently Christian concept. Without the soul, free will cannot exist.

[Anonymous No.16759707]

>>16759688
Indeed. Any version of Christianity that teaches free will is nonsensical. God created humans knowing the majority of them would be damned. The ones who are to be saved were chosen by him before creation.

[Anonymous No.16759718]

>>16759707
Shut the fuck up calvinist.

[Anonymous No.16759723]

>>16759718
Telling me to shut up doesn't make what I said false. If God knows the future then he has always known who would be saved and who would be damned, and that future is immutable because his knowledge is perfect.

[Anonymous No.16759742]

>>16759723
>God knows how someone will use their free will
>so they don't have free will
LOL, a modern day John Calvin.

[Anonymous No.16759753]

>>16759742
If God created a world in which he knew that you would be saved, then it is impossible for you not to be saved. And it is impossible for you not to be saved in the manner in which he knows. There is only one singular outcome for every single action you and everyone else takes in their entire lives, and there can be no other. What is the sense of "free" will in this construction?

[Anonymous No.16759756]

>>16759473
Aristotle was not Christian nor believed in God.

Does Zeus exist?

[Anonymous No.16759762]

>>16759742
Calvin was almost redpilled, he was still a christcuck in the end though
The christshit idea of free will is paganistic in origin

[Anonymous No.16759777]

>>16759753
So there is only one way that I will respond and then there is only one way for you to respond and everything is written in stone and we go round in round in circles for eternity. It's an assclown ideology that only femboys believe in.

[Anonymous No.16759793]

>>16759777
You haven't given me any refutation, of course. You haven't because it's impossible and your beliefs are illogical nonsense.

[Anonymous No.16759809]

>>16759777
And of course, God having ordained something is meaningless to you. Your existence can only have meaning if it is determined by yourself. If you decide something, it has value; if God decides something, it's for assclowns. Who is your God? Is it yourself?

[Anonymous No.16759828]

>>16755449
Its all just cope

[Anonymous No.16759928]

>>16759756
Aristotle identified the existence of a Prime Mover as the first cause of creation. Also known as God. He described the PM as sentient and perfect. He did not identify any of the Greek pantheon as this being.

Aristotle's metaphysics are foundational to Christian theology. If everyone who believes in God —or gods for that matter— is "schizophrenic" then you can dismiss nearly everyone in human history besides yourself, the New Atheists whose arguments you seem to be parroting, and maybe your dad and a few of your edgy friends. Everyone is crazy but you. You are enlightened by your own intelligence.

[Anonymous No.16759958]

>>16755449
>forgive
For what? What have I done? I was decent enough person and reality itself still treated me like total crap, all I know is misery, life full of sickness, suffering and failures yet christcucks want me to feel guilty about something? No, fuck them, fuck their masochistic zombie jew messiah and fuck that psychopathic skydaddy I never chose to be a damn martyr. I hate this world and my existence so much.

[Anonymous No.16759991]

>>16755449
forgive from what?

[Anonymous No.16760002]

>>16759753
If you behave as if preordination means you can be wicked without repentance then you were predestined not to be saved.

If you behave as if salvation requires effort on your part then you were predestined for salvation.

Calvin's fallacy was believing predestination should influence the choices of mortals who are bound in time, rather than being an abstract attribute of creation that only matters to God, who exists beyond time.

[Anonymous No.16760004]

>>16759085
Wrong

[Anonymous No.16760012]

>>16759958
You seem a little prideful there buddy, maybe your ego wouldn't feel damaged if you didn't project onto NPC wojak memes?
If you have done no wrong, hold your head up high. Your bitterness seems indicative of something but I won't be so presumptuous as to guess at what.

[Anonymous No.16760033]

>>16760002
Reformed theology does not teach that salvation is possible without repentance or good works. Try again.

[Anonymous No.16760079]

>>16759958
Literally everyone has sinned no matter how much of a nice guy they think they are. Your failures and misfortunes need not be related to your sins. Righteous men often suffer. The wicked often prosper. Salvation is not a lucky rabbit's foot. It is the path to eternal bliss with God.

That said, life usually improves with self-discipline and moral living.

Sorry if you've got chronic illnesses bro. That sucks.

[Anonymous No.16760099]

>>16760002
>today I will argue against calvinism by not understanding it in any way
cringe

[Anonymous No.16760137]

>>16755449
Free will doesn't makes sense as a concept, you can never decide what you want

[Anonymous No.16760168]

>>16760137
>you can never decide what you want
You absolutely can. It's called self-discipline.

[Anonymous No.16760169]

>>16755449
I stayed virgin to avoid sinning.
And now chad can just ask for forgiveness and reach my level or better?
This is why I'm not a christcuck

[Anonymous No.16760195]

>>16760169
Matthew 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

[Anonymous No.16760246]

>>16760169
He can't just 'ask forgiveness', he has to truly mean it.
You have to regret every trespass you've made and actually mean it.
Have you ever actually said sorry and fully meant it?
I can think of a handful of cases where I meant it as opposed to hundreds if not thousands where I didn't.

[Anonymous No.16760256]

>>16760168
you can never decide what you want to want

[Anonymous No.16760260]

>>16760169
Matthew 25:1-12
[1] Then shall the kingdom of heaven be like to ten virgins, who taking their lamps went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride. [2] And five of them were foolish, and five wise. [3] But the five foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them: [4] But the wise took oil in their vessels with the lamps. [5] And the bridegroom tarrying, they all slumbered and slept.

[6] And at midnight there was a cry made: Behold the bridegroom cometh, go ye forth to meet him. [7] Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. [8] And the foolish said to the wise: Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out. [9] The wise answered, saying: Lest perhaps there be not enough for us and for you, go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. [10] Now whilst they went to buy, the bridegroom came: and they that were ready, went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut.

[11] But at last come also the other virgins, saying: Lord, Lord, open to us. [12] But he answering said: Amen I say to you, I know you not.

[Anonymous No.16760264]

>>16755449
The Christian cosmology is both, and free will is not a "sin". Let's look at Crime and Punishment; in the beginning Rodya seems almost forced into committing the murder, with strange coincidences egging him on. The first few chapters make his fate seem inescapable, and after the deed he spends almost the entire book is him being sick over the fact that his most significant act (murder) shows a complete lack of self-actualization. He wants to get caught, but can't stand the thought of it. Yet Sonya is thrown into his path, and with the help of Dunya they get him to confess. His confession, although coerced, was his decision and it almost comes with relief. That's why the epilogue is so jarring, because it's relief after a 700 page internal struggle with his own free will. His confession and realized love for Sonya are his, and that's what God both gave to Rodya and what he gave himself. In essence, whatever God wants to happen will happen, but our faith and love only exist by free will. That's what makes free will so special in Christianity, that God wants you to have it to see if you want or have love in your heart. It really is one of the great mysteries of the faith.

[Anonymous No.16760278]

>>16755449
Jesus was a disgusting demon, much like Muhammad. Jesus deserved to die because he was destabilizing the Roman empire due to in-fighting with rabbis over theological disputes. He was not a good person. Muhammad was a pedophiliac, schizophrenic warlord, so he's easier to critique.
Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses are all burning in hell.

[Anonymous No.16760297]

>>16760278
He didn't die tho

[Anonymous No.16760319]

>>16760297
Yes he did. God was crucified and died. This is fundamental Christian theology.

[Anonymous No.16760330]

>>16760319
but He the continual sacrifice substituting the whole burnt offering
t. actual fundamental Christian theology

[Anonymous No.16760341]

>>16760330
Christ died once. There is only sacrifice.

[Anonymous No.16760350]

>>16760341
There is only one* sacrifice
typo

[Anonymous No.16760358]

>>16760330
If you don't believe that Christ literally died in body, you are not a Christian.

[Anonymous No.16760360]

>>16759664

[Anonymous No.16760372]

jesus story is just pity porn, how is the most good man letting himself get tortured absolved the sins of humanity?

[Anonymous No.16760377]

>>16760372
Because he is god and is taking the punishment you deserve in your stead.

[Anonymous No.16760393]

>>16760341
>>16760350
then how come communion ever liturgy?
>>16760358
yes but this anon is pretending like Christ was only a man or some shit, he ressurect is ok
>>16760377
no bad galvin
>>16760372
because his ressurection shows us the path to escape death an sin, and he transcended time to conquer death

[Anonymous No.16760400]

>>16759928
trying to use the prime mover as proof of the christian god is like saying heliocentrism justify sun worship

[Anonymous No.16760406]

>>16760393
>yes but this anon is pretending like Christ was only a man or some shit, he ressurect is ok
In order to be resurrected you have to die.

[Anonymous No.16760419]

>>16760406
>die
to the flesh, he ain't solely a man

[Anonymous No.16760432]

>>16760419
That's what dying means. It means for your body to expire and be separated from your soul.

[Anonymous No.16760443]

>>16760372
Because Europeans on average are smarter than Arabs, so Christianity is dying out while Pisslam grows. It is impossible to believe a disgusting, dirty Jew was the son of God **as one gains more historical knowledge**. The only way a Christian can remain a Christcuck is by purposefully ignoring certain research. How many times have you come across a Christcuck who purposefully twists historical facts for his agenda?

Both Jesus and Muhammad are in hell. Now the life of Zarathustra from what we can glean was truly a good person. Zarathustra was not a schizophrenic the way Jesus and Muhammad was. Zarathustra was rebelling against the nihilism, savagery, and debauchery of Scythian-like warlords, and then he went to preach the herders a simple and elegant dualitic message that is accessible to anyone with a sincere, honest heart.

Christianity and Islam are druj. That's not to say you can come across good Christians or Muslims, but the fact is their beliefs actively prevent one from being a good person. This is because they place faith before good deeds, words, and thoughts. In Zoroastrianism, good deeds, words, and thoughts are valued more than faith. Salvation comes from purification rather than faith in Zoroastrianism. That's what Zarathustra preached, and the only reason Europe became Christian was due to Byzantines, who adopted Christianity to spite the superior Sassanian Zoroastrians.

For this reason, Christianity and Islam are parasitic religions that override the cultures of nations they take over. You cannot reconcile Christianity or Islam with pre-Abrahamic myths or whatever. Zoroastrianism can be reconciled more with various belief systems though, but it would turn into being more dualistic.

For example, if Zoroastrianism spread to Europe, then we would see Norse, Celtic, etc. myths taking a more dualistic spin, but they would still probably use their same mythological figures. It would just be framed in a more overtly dualistic way with forces of good and evil.

[Anonymous No.16760452]

>>16760377
all of humanity's sin should deserve more punishement than a single guy getting tortured

[Anonymous No.16760458]

>>16760452
You missed the first clause of my sentence.

[Anonymous No.16760462]

>>16760432
to humans, Christ was an energy of the uncreated essence of God

[Anonymous No.16760469]

>>16760377
Such views are not tenable with more historical comprehension.

[Anonymous No.16760472]

>>16760458
a couple hour on a cross should be nothing for god

[Anonymous No.16760473]

If you think will = choice you're ngmi

[Anonymous No.16760474]

>>16760462
And he had a body. His body expired. He died. Stop playing semantics.

[Anonymous No.16760476]

>>16760443
>Because
remove Because*

[Anonymous No.16760485]

>>16760472
What is fit for God is not within your right to determine.
>>16760469
I care about what scripture teaches. If something else is contrary to it, that's not my concern.

[Anonymous No.16760489]

>>16760474
I said he died to the flesh tho, we aren't disagreeing

[Anonymous No.16760496]

>>16760485
The only reason Christianity grew in Europe was due to geopolitical reasons. With more historical comprehension, you will understand this. There's nothing special in Christianity relative to other religions. There is nothing European in pure Christianity either. It came from the Levant, from a Semitic background.
You have the same mentality as Muslims by saying nonsense like: "If something else is contrary to it, that's not my concern."
Jesus was just an irrelevant Jew. You wouldn't care about him if you never heard about him.

[Anonymous No.16760499]

>>16760489
Indeed, he died. Glad we agree.

[Anonymous No.16760500]

>>16760485
an omniscient being would know how all suffering felt, an extra crsifiction wouldn't add much

[Anonymous No.16760514]

>>16760496
>If history was completely different then blah blah
Okay. I believe history is directed by god's providence and is not an accumulation of chance.
>>16760500
Why would a human be unable to understand how suffering felt? Christ possessed a human nature. He is fully God and fully man.

[Anonymous No.16760516]

>>16760496
Why does it matter whether Jesus was Jewish or not?

[Anonymous No.16760520]

threadly reminder you should be having theological discussions with trained priests and not with random people

[Anonymous No.16760544]

>>16760514
So when a serial killer abducts and tortured a child, that is done by god's providence too? I recommend reading Les Chants de Maldoror. You have to limit your intelligence and wisdom in order to avoid such questions.
>is not an accumulation of chance.
There are more explanations than just chance vs. God's providence. Obviously, you are on the low end of the bell curve to rely on such a simple-minded assessment.
>>16760516
There is something very silly and nonsensical about the story of Jesus. Only a narcissistic Jew could come up with it.

[Anonymous No.16760550]

>>16760514
>Why would a human be unable to understand how suffering felt?
>He is fully God

[Anonymous No.16760553]

>>16760544
>tortured
tortures*

[Anonymous No.16760554]

>>16760544
>So when a serial killer abducts and tortured a child, that is done by god's providence too?
Yes

[Anonymous No.16760576]

>>16760550
And fully human. You can't make your argument without ignoring part of the equation. His humanity is not negated by his divinity. They are not mixed. This is explicitly stated in the Definition of Chalcedon:
>recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence

[Anonymous No.16760592]

>>16760554
See, your religion is sick and nonsensical. The only reason you argue such things is because that's what your culture chose to adopt. You and barbaric Muslims are two sides of the Semitic coin.
The vast majority of you are both going to hell. The only reasons you cling to your nonsense are two-fold: 1) cultural conditioning and psychological attachment issues to family, and 2) lack of historical comprehension.
There is no other reason.

[Anonymous No.16760601]

>>16760592
Okay

[Anonymous No.16760606]

>>16760576
if he is fully god, he should know about all the suffering, you have to argue only his human part really suffered, which brings us back to the initial point about as to how the sufffering of one man can possibly cover the entirety of sins

[Anonymous No.16760622]

>>16760606
You're still misunderstanding. Christ's human nature and divine nature are not persons, they are not actors, they are natures belonging to one person. Anything that occurs in relation to either nature is predicated upon the person. If God (Christ) suffers in relation to his humanity, then it is correct to state "God suffered." A nature is not a thing that can suffer, only a person is, and there is only person being discussed.

[Anonymous No.16760627]

>>16760601
Right, I predicted you would respond like this. The reason Christianity is dying out is because Europeans are becoming more aware of historical complexity and its vastness. You, being less honest and probably less intelligent, choose to limit your consciousness in this regard, and you must rely on twisting certain truths or historical comprehension to retain your faith.
In the case of Muslims, there is a stronger element of violence in how they maintain their faith. My question is will you follow suite or choose to remain meek and stupid?

[Anonymous No.16760628]

>>16760622
>and there is only one* person being discussed.
Typo.

[Anonymous No.16760642]

>>16759675
>Calvin
>Christian

stop it with the fanfic please

[Anonymous No.16760646]

>>16760627
>The reason Christianity is dying out
What do you think this means? This has no bearing on anything theologically.
>My question is will you follow suite or choose to remain meek and stupid?
I'm fine being a dumb fool who is mocked for Christ's sake.

[Anonymous No.16760683]

>>16760646
>This has no bearing on anything theologically
the only reason you are a christian is because of how wide spread it is

[Anonymous No.16760686]

>>16760683
And we're right back to what I said earlier
>I believe history is directed by god's providence and is not an accumulation of chance.

[Anonymous No.16760708]

>>16760686
Excactly, so christianity dying is a theologically relevent

[Anonymous No.16760720]

>>16760708
Not in the sense you mean. There's nothing about Christian doctrine that stands or falls based upon its popularity. If scripture indicates anything, it's that the state of affairs in the past was abnormal. The ideas of Christian nations has no basis in scripture.

[Anonymous No.16760815]

>>16760646
>I'm fine being a dumb fool
What's funny is you have to be kind of a dumb fool to be a Christian in the first place. In fact, you also need to be mocked in order to have some kind of smug satisfaction that deepens your faith. Whatever to foster the hallucination of Jesus putting his hand on your shoulder.
While my own religion may have issues, thankfully, it doesn't have your problems.
Also, there is something insidiously self-destructive in Christianity. You are the kind who will take the risk to pull an extra person who is drowning onto a rowboat, but this knowingly cause the rowboat to surpass its weight limit jeopardizing everyone already on it. However, you do this because you wish to convert him or develop some kind of vain sense of self-satisfaction, even though it threatens your family on the rowboat. My religion doesn't have this issue and does permit for some degree of xenophobia, which is evolutionary natural.

[Anonymous No.16760824]

>>16755471
You can do both

[Anonymous No.16760830]

>>16760646
Also, one last note. Let's look at what you've said here:

>Christianity dying out has no bearing on anything theologically.

>I believe history is directed by god's providence and is not an accumulation of chance.

So it is by God's providence that Christianity dies out?

[Anonymous No.16760834]

>>16760830
Yes. Did you think that was a gotcha?

[Anonymous No.16760838]

>>16755449
It doesn't matter whether they believe in those things, since they cannot exist in a universe with an omniscient God.

[Anonymous No.16760841]

>>16759685
>following the advice of my ancestor
That's kinda creepy, maybe you do need therapy instead of performing necromancy

[Anonymous No.16760843]

>>16755471
If only therapy worked.

[Anonymous No.16760848]

>>16760834
Any christian pressed hard enough on their bullshit can fall back on ''mysterious ways''

[Anonymous No.16760857]

>>16760848
I didn't say anything about it being mysterious. Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[Anonymous No.16760865]

>>16760834
Yeah, that kind of stuff won't work on me because 1) My religion is heavily based on cosmic dualism, so I'm not equivalent to an edgy atheist mocking you, and 2) I have mentioned I consider a lot of Christians good people. Many of my favorite artists and writers were Christian, and I would argue they are blessed based on my own religion because my religion places good words, deeds, and thoughts above just blind faith. Yes, there are many good Christians, but I think it would be better to just let go of the dogma and adopt a more flexible philosophical approach.

[Anonymous No.16760881]

>>16760865
Feel free to lay your cards on the table as I have instead of being deliberately vague.

[Anonymous No.16760892]

>>16760848
>nooooooooooo i have to understand god
i strongly dislike stemfags

[Anonymous No.16760902]

>>16760881
I did lay my cards on the table already here: >>16760443

[Anonymous No.16760944]

>>16760892
I know that I don't know much, which is why I don't pretend that a old middle eastern book has all the answers

[Anonymous No.16761067]

>>16760944
>old middle eastern book
Not an argument.

[Anonymous No.16761083]

>>16761067
I have presented many argument in this thread to why I don't believe the fondation of christian theology to make sense, and after a bit of arguing, the best he could come up with as ''mysterios ways''

[Anonymous No.16761099]

>>16761083
That's a perfectly valid thing to say. The problem is that atheists simply refuse to be charitable to people who disagree with them.

[Anonymous No.16761122]

>>16760944
>>16761083
This dude has the right mindset.

>>16761067
This dude is a retard

[Anonymous No.16761135]

>>16761099
> refuse to be charitable to people who disagree with them
You mean atheists tell you that god doesn't exist. Duh? Atheism literally means being against the notion of gods.

[Anonymous No.16761154]

>>16761122
Just because you don't understand the wisdom in the old book, doesn't mean other people don't.

[Anonymous No.16761194]

>>16761154
The Gathas is more profound than the Bible, Koran, and Old Testament. I recommend reading it for a different way of framing things. Gathas actually goes back to Zarathustra.

[Anonymous No.16761224]

>>16761154
>>16761194
>muh old man knows everything
Even teenagers know what was extremely difficult to learn about the natural sciences 200 years ago, never mind 2 fuckin thousand. Wisdom is a meme.

[Anonymous No.16761263]

>>16761224
you have to be 18 to post here

[Anonymous No.16761274]

>>16761224
Sorry, but I dislike edgy nihilistic atheists too. I recommend studying more philosophy, so you can question the limitations of physicalism more. I'm not critiquing the Christian on the basis of atheist or nihilistic rhetoric the way you are.

[Anonymous No.16761336]

>>16761274
>>16761263
I understand the limitations of our perception perfectly. And it is precisely because I understand it that I know I cannot know anything with certainty. All you do with your philosophy is speculate and falling into logical fallacies of your under developed brain. Philosophy books are barely better than toilet paper to wipe my arse with.

[Anonymous No.16761437]

>>16761336
I see your point in some ways, but it's a difficult matter. We all have to settle on certain metaphysical claims in life. It begins with the Problem of Other Minds and rejecting solipsism. After that, we're forced to draw other metaphysical assumptions based on our experience.
I have had certain experiences that have led me to conclude cosmic dualism.

[Anonymous No.16761457]

>>16761437
Could just be your own body, lying to you.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16761480]

>>16755449
free with regard to what?
self-determined as opposed to what?
important questions ...........
but more importantly .......
why ask these questions?
with a certain author lies the answers.

[Anonymous No.16761487]

>>16761457
You've already contradicted yourself by saying, "I understand the limitations of our perception perfectly. And it is precisely because I understand it that I know I cannot know anything with certainty." Therefore, how can you be sure it's "just your own body lying to you"?

If you want to argue for identity physicalism or eliminativism, it would make sense to not begin your argument in such a fashion.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16761515]

>>16761194
based zoroastrian poster
i was investigating the Gathas a while back and since i've suspected there might be something profound and as of yet un-talked about behind zoroastrian thought. this especially so because the abrahamic traditions clearly having their eschatologies' genesis in zoroastrian dualism

what are your thoughts on manicheaism, if you have any? the manichean dualism is interesting to me because the good and evil parts of the universe are equal in prowess and it's up to Man to ensure the triumph of the good. other traditions generally presuppose the triumph of the good, but then have to incorporate a 'fall' of some sort, and a subsequent 'restoration' to cope with the fact that Man remains either imperfect or ambivalent in nature.

[Anonymous No.16761537]

>>16761487
I can't see how that's a contradiction, but whatever you say buddy.
You have physical limitations, your senses, which are somewhat enhanced by technology, but the limitation remains. Also your consciousness can be altered by hormonal makeup, by neurological damage and/or mental illness. So it's not a contradiction. Baseline perception can and often is limited by degenerative and circumstantial factors.

[Anonymous No.16761572]

>>16761515
I respect Manichaeism, but it is a lot more pessimistic than Zoroastrianism. I've read the Cologne Mani Codex and other texts, and Manichaeists tend to view the material world as encased in darkness with a divine spark in the soul. It is liberated through a process of meditation, celibacy, and ascetism, which is based on a two-tiered hierarchy of the Elect and Hearers. The Elect live a life without toil and avoid meat, sexual relations, and so forth, since it harms the living spirit, while the Hearers do toils for the Elect but are offered better transmigration. The Universe is seen largely as a distillation factory where light particles are liberated back to the source of the Father while darkness contaminates and corrupts the soul. The Doubt-Remover Exposition of Mardanfarrox criticizes such views since material creation is viewed more positively in the sense it is an instrument to aid in Ahura Mazda's eventual triumph. However, while Mazdyasna did have dualistic metaphysics, it was of a less pessimistic variety (e.g., ascetism was not encouraged). There was darkness that encased material forms in Zoroastrianism as an example, and the struggle between Spenta and Angra Mainyu manifests more in terms of embodied states of mind, but some disagreements did exist among mobed.

Also, I plan to read A.A Milne's Winnie-the-Pooh and McCarthy's Blood Meridian soon. I haven't been reading as much as I should due to Computer Science school load, but I have read everything on this list thus far and have written several reviews and literary analyses.

[Anonymous No.16761588]

>>16755537
>he also created all that is evil

>thinking evil has an existence

Shiggydiggy

[Anonymous No.16761596]

>>16761537
None of this affects my religious beliefs which boil down to a kind of rudimentary cosmic dualism. That there are certain deeds, thoughts, and words that can definitively be called good or evil. That is really the gist of my views. The core of Zoroastrianism boils down to this: good words, deeds, and thoughts are of Spenta Mainyu and should be privileged over the bad words, deeds, and thoughts of Angra Mainyu. One way I convey this is by saying Moominvalley is real and so is Ligotti's gas station carnivals. One is closer to Ahura Mazda, the other to Ahriman.

[Anonymous No.16761620]

>>16755494
You're alive now, not 2000 years ago, so yes, believing in modern mythology as opposed to ancient would be the smart move to make.

[Anonymous No.16761621]

>>16761572
>There was darkness that encased material forms in Zoroastrianism
There was no darkness that encased material forms in Zoroastrianism*

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16761661]

>>16761572
>that reading chart
LOL why are you on /lit/ shilling your theology if you're bold enough to throw the moomin valley into the mix? if you don't mind me suggesting it i'd like to see you create a blog of some kind, your posts amuse me. write.as is an anonymous and private site you'd like to write at length but wanna retain anonymity.

[Anonymous No.16761694]

>>16761661
Yes, I have that chart for film, painters, video games, and anime/manga too. I am considering to make a blog, but my name will get out there soon because I have published one short story in a reputable horror journal. My goal is to write both spenta and angra stories in order to see if the line that divides them is determinate, illusory, or indeterminate. I based this endeavor on certain dreams. I do consider myself a prophet.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16761879]

>>16761694
Based. Looking forward to your prophecies. Have you tried investigating your dreams? I've been intent on having my dreams be revelatory lately, and to my surprise they've occurred with increased frequency.

[Anonymous No.16761889]

>>16761879
Yeah, it was two very powerful dreams that made me leave behind Zen Buddhism for this path.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16761991]

>>16761889
Curious. Best of luck to you anon

[Anonymous No.16762007]

>>16761991
Here are the two dreams that made me leave behind Zen Buddhism:

1/2
I recently had two dreams in a row. My first dream involved finding myself in a labyrinthine library, which had multiple levels. There was a faint irrradiance that permeated the entire setting. Each book on the shelves glowed as if begging to be grabbed. I found myself on the topmost level, and from the corner, a refulgence of light engulfed me. I trudged towards the most luminescent of books and picked it up. Beautiful and serene, I flipped through it without forethought. What moved me were the most beautiful of all vistas, invigorating my entire being with peace and calm. Picturesque and idyllic, the enchanting pictures emanated divine light, perfect order and stability. Its paintings were reminiscent of more otherworldly illustrations of Alfred Bestall or Maxfield Parrish. A picture book of absolute goodness, a Perfect Platonic form. I wanted to take this book to share with my wife.
I awoke once, hoping it was in my clasped right hand. My hand kept opening and closing as I gazed upon it with one open eye. Back to sleep once more, I attempted again to cling to the book, this time harder, to bring it to the actual world of matter. I failed once more.
I realized that no matter how many times I vainly tried to bring forth this book of absolute light of goodness, this Book of Spenta Mainyu, that it would forever remain in the recesses of this dream world. I gave up, for fear that after too many attempts, new dreams would overtake me thereby causing this comforting one to dissolve. I gently placed the book on the shelf. It is as if all the generosity, loving-kindness, and wisdom of this world were condensed into its purest and benevolent of all forms within that angelic book.
In the foyer of the library, I conversed with several people reading books.
“How can I bring books from this library to the actual world?” I inquired.
“Oh, you cannot bring any of those books to such a world,” one of them replied.
I became silent and morose. The dream ended, and I laid hopeless in bed. Being still tired, it took me five minutes to fall asleep once more.

[Anonymous No.16762015]

>>16762007
2/2
The second dream occurred in a gas station. While walking around idly, the scene struck me as immensely decrepit and dirty. Stains of defecation were in the corners and all processed foods were expired. The main cashier seemed bored, reading a newspaper without a care in the world. I came across a peculiar magazine rack.
Without much forethought, my hand glided towards a conspicuous magazine from which emitted a murky darkness. Appalled, it took my dream-mind a couple of seconds to process what it beheld: the book’s covering felt akin to skin and little strings dangled on its bottom. My fingers caressed its strings. “No, it couldn’t be,” I whispered. These flimsy strings were from human entrails, their stench unbearable. I became too fearful to open the book.
Eventually, some great unworldly dark temptation took hold of me, and I gently opened the book. Inside were pictures of dismembered children that shocked me whereby no words can do justice to the horror, like dark net engulfing one in its madness. As I flipped through the pages they became increasingly more chaotic and disorderly, the faces of blood and agony feeling even more frightening in this dreamworld. I immediately put the Book of Angra Mainyu back onto the rack. It is as if all the greed, hatred, and delusion of this world were condensed into its purest and malevolent of all forms within that infernal book.

My question is this:

How do the books of absolute light and darkness relate to the Absolute?

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16762039]

>>16762015
>How do the books of absolute light and darkness relate to the Absolute?
Jung, Seven Sermons to the Dead
>The dead approached like mist out of the swamps and they shouted: “Speak to us further about the highest god!”
>—Abraxas is the god whom it is difficult to know. His power is the very greatest, because man does not perceive it at all. Man sees the summum bonum (supreme good) of the sun, and also the infinum malum of the devil, but Abraxas he does not see, for he is undefinable life itself, which is the mother of good and evil alike.
>The power of Abraxas is twofold. You cannot see it, because in your eyes the opposition of this power seems to cancel it out.
>That which is spoken by God-the-Sun is life;
>That which is spoken by the devil is death.
>Abraxas, however, speaks the venerable and also accursed word, which is life and death at once.
>Abraxas generates truth and falsehood, good and evil, light and darkness with the same word in the same deed. Therefore Abraxas is truly the terrible one.

[Anonymous No.16762100]

>>16755471
Nothing wrong with ancient mythology unless it's Jewish, which Christianity is.

[Anonymous No.16762111]

>>16762039
Yes, Abraxas is similar to Aion from Roman Mythology, Zurvan-Akarana from Zurvanism, Vayu from some mobeds' interpretations of Zoroastrianism, and the Dharmakaya from Mahayana. It's also kind of like Hundun which involves the initial neutral entanglement, blurring, and production of good and evil, truth and falsehood, light and darkness, etc. It is a kind of infinity that treats both good and evil as existing in a complementary dynamic on equal metaphysical territory where one cannot privilege good over evil, much like Derrida's "the trace". I appreciate how Jung at least admits it logically entails nihilism though. Regardless, this is the reason I left behind Zen because I think it's possible spenta and angra both preexisted and the world was a consequence of their collision with the eventual triumph of spenta. This would mean one can privilege spenta over angra.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16762212]

>>16762111
>I appreciate how Jung at least admits it logically entails nihilism though.
Yesss, exactly. Jung was clear on the matter that life presupposes a self-folding dualism, or an opposition of principle. I would exhort you to read him if you haven't already. Though he himself said he restricted himself to empiricist elaborations of symbolism I personally think a metaphysical reading of Jung is much more intellectually rewarding. I think you'd find him interesting.

[Anonymous No.16762245]

Speaking from a Catholic perspective, yes, it is a fundamental tenant of the faith...

-Man and woman were made in God’s divine image and likeness (https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a1.htm).).
-Therefore man and woman are separated from the beasts of the world and are endowed with a number of gifts, one of which is the freedom to choose (See Adam and Eve; although many believe the story to be allegorical the principle of free will endowed to man+woman still applies).
-As we are made in God’s image, we as humans have the special ability to choose to accept the Lord and his message, or to reject it and stray away from the Lord’s flock. It is our likeness to God, spiritually, that gives our special relationship to Him and our freedom.

This is an extremely watered down version of years and years of Catholic philosophy, and I’ve only really stated some of the principles (not the reasoning, as that would take ages). Hope it helps!

[Anonymous No.16762259]

>>16762212
I've only read the Seven Sermons to the Dead, which did influence my own horror stories, one which was published in a literary journal. Hui Neng's Platform Sutra also argues something similar.

[Anonymous No.16762275]

>>16762245
I forgot to mention that I believe sources such as official writings (Papal encyclicals, Vatican Council documents, etc), writings of important Church figures (St. Augustine, St. Aquinas) and writings from other Christians (Kierkegaard; specifically where he touches on parables and free will) could be useful in answering your question.

[doubtposting !!0CYbMy7gCdH No.16762478]

>>16762259
Yooo cool, that means I get to shill my favorite authors in good conscience now, right? Anyway, since you're likely not to be interested in the psychology itself here's a truncated reading list of my favorites of Jung's schizowritings:
>On Secret of the Golden Flower
>Answer to Job
>Psychology and Religion
>Mysterium Coniunctionis (dense)

[Anonymous No.16762542]

>>16761620
>believing in modern mythology as opposed to ancient would be the smart move to make.
Disagree on this one, since we can clearly see the flaws of the modern one.
The old one, we can't even understand properly.

[Anonymous No.16762572]

>>16755471
Therapy?, expensive
Introspection? free
>stbelieve ancient mythology
He thinks we're all literalist, saged and ignored

[Anonymous No.16763339]

>>16759023
>Nothing of value
>Human life has no value
Is this the famous Christian virtue I've heard so much about?
>>16759068
>Christ died to destroy the gates of death which exist because that's how he ordered reality in the first place
Hmm, big brain play by the Big Guy there

[Anonymous No.16763384]

>>16759624
Yet even within the Christian cannon, it is clear God reveals himself to different degrees to different people. If he chooses not to reveal himself to a degree to convince a person of his existence, how is that person to blame? Why is that person a weed if he was honestly trying to pursue good and perhaps even a Divine Good, but went a different path because Christianity is pretty esoteric and, like all formal religions, tightly tied to culture boundaries?

Christians are so myopic, acting like there isn't human existence or experience outside of Christendom. There absolutely is, and if anything, it's the Christian dogma which poisons other, more direct paths to Nirvana/The Good/Divinity.

[Anonymous No.16763433]

>>16760264
>to see if you want or have love in your heart
So your position is that God creates human beings with definite characteristics, yet does not know what those characteristics are, and if they turn out to be lacking in a person, that individual is cast away forever? Sounds like a pretty sadomasochistic experiment designed to extract devotion through the threat of punishment, desu

[Anonymous No.16763649]

>>16755587
not an unreasonable take