/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.1673839]

Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story? Also, why is/isn't it?

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1673841]

no. because its a choose-your-own story.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673845]

do you think football is a good way to tell a story

[Anonymous No.1673850]

>>1673845
That's just stupid. It's not even close to OP's example.

[Anonymous No.1673851]

Seriously? Again? This is a bullshit thread. You couldn't even be bothered to type out your OP properly. This is NOT /lit/ related.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673854]

>>1673850
>That's just stupid. It's not even close to OP's example.

I'd like you to tell me in no uncertain words how a game is not a game

[Anonymous No.1673857]

[Anonymous No.1673883]

>>1673854
Are you that fucking illiterate that you don't understand that words can and do have multiple meanings? I've seen fucking ugg boots come up with deeper thoughts than you. What the fuck are you doing here, you little piece of shit, if you can't come up with a way to differentiate between a football game and a video game in terms of story telling potential?

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673888]

>>1673883
you've yet to tell me how a game is not a game

[Anonymous No.1673891]

>>1673883

>implying football has no narrative

[Anonymous No.1673894]

>>1673883
what the fuck, man.

you ever herd of radio? or any of the other many movies based around football and its players?

don't downplay football, chump.

even a story set on a football field doesn't have to be about football either.

[Anonymous No.1673905]

Having just finished playing Dragon Age 2, I can safely say that video games are an excellent medium for telling stories.

If you know nothing about it, I suppose it requires some explanation. It is the exploration of power dynamics in civilization and you, as a player, even learn about where you stand, philosophically, in regards to gray moral areas. Sure, this happens in a lot of other games, but I have never been tested as much as this one, and I would suggest that there is room in the future for some truly great mind fucks.

Additionally, there are innumerable reference to literary works in the banter between characters.

I am not sure if someone who doesn't play video games can really understand, but I am certain the potential is there to create some amazing, intellectually challenging works of art though video games.

[Anonymous No.1673914]

>>1673905
>Having just finished playing Dragon Age 2, I can safely say that video games are an excellent medium for telling stories.
>Using DA2 as an example of a good story in a video game
Are you fucking serious?

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673916]

Having just finished playing Space Invaders, I can safely say that video games are an excellent medium for telling stories.

If you know nothing about it, I suppose it requires some explanation. It is the exploration of power dynamics in civilization and you, as a player, even learn about where you stand, philosophically, in regards to gray moral areas. Sure, this happens in a lot of other games, but I have never been tested as much as this one, and I would suggest that there is room in the future for some truly great mind fucks.
Lol, and nothing was lost. Projection on your part par excellence

[Anonymous No.1673917]

HURR

[Anonymous No.1673919]

>>1673905
>playing DA2

Seriously.

[Anonymous No.1673923]

>>1673914

I am not suggesting how great or not great it was. I am suggesting that it opened my eyes to the potential of the medium.

[Anonymous No.1673926]

>>1673914
DA2 it's a shitty game. Try another example.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673927]

Having just finished playing Atari Boxing, I can safely say that video games are an excellent medium for telling stories.

If you know nothing about it, I suppose it requires some explanation. It is the exploration of power dynamics in civilization and you, as a player, even learn about where you stand, philosophically, in regards to gray moral areas. Sure, this happens in a lot of other games, but I have never been tested as much as this one, and I would suggest that there is room in the future for some truly great mind fucks.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673931]

Having just finished playing Lemmings 3d, I can safely say that video games are an excellent medium for telling stories.

If you know nothing about it, I suppose it requires some explanation. It is the exploration of power dynamics in civilization and you, as a player, even learn about where you stand, philosophically, in regards to gray moral areas. Sure, this happens in a lot of other games, but I have never been tested as much as this one, and I would suggest that there is room in the future for some truly great mind fucks.


I think this will become my new /v/ copypasta

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673940]

>>1673931
Having just finished playing soccer, I can safely say that sports are an excellent medium for telling stories.

If you know nothing about it, I suppose it requires some explanation. It is the exploration of power dynamics in civilization and you, as a player, even learn about where you stand, philosophically, in regards to gray moral areas. Sure, this happens in a lot of other games, but I have never been tested as much as this one, and I would suggest that there is room in the future for some truly great mind fucks.

[Anonymous No.1673951]

DA2 actually has good characterization for a video game. Sure, they are one dimensional fantasy characters, but they are consistent, have detailed histories, and there participation, should you choose to have them along, effects the dynamics of the story.

There are various sub-plots, with an over-arcing plot that is effected by the outcome of subplots.

There are more than a few references to other literary works, and there are allegories that are relevant in today's societies. Specifically, how much freedom do we ask the innocent man to sacrifice so that potentially dangerous people may be hunted. Should you be able to kill those people, or should you lock them up? Do they get a trial? Or do you take matters into your own hands?

The music is... better than most other video games, the dialogue isn't nearly as painful as most fantasy books, and managed to even be funny and deep (and edgy) on occasion.

The artwork is done well, and the "look" beats most of the other stuff I have played... not that I play a lot of stuff.

For these reasons, artistically, it stands up above other games, and... more importantly... hints at the possibility that someone, someday, could create a truly magnificent piece of art in this particular medium.

Is that better?

[Anonymous No.1673954]

>>1673951

inb4 their there they're

[Anonymous No.1673959]

http://mirek.majewscy.net/jakub/mt_ackn.html

[Anonymous No.1673969]

http://www.next-gen.biz/features/death-of-the-author

[Anonymous No.1673970]

They are the equivalent of the goosebumps choose your own adventure stories.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673991]

>>1673951
>DA2 actually has good characterization for a video game
so does any game of Hockey. Every character in that game usually has no less than 10 whopping years of backstory. And at the end of the game no-one turns around and says "yeah the goals were great but the characterisation in the Flames was absolutely superb! No, they focus on the mechanics of the game; the passes, the goals, hits an misses, technique etc. The meat and bones, not this peripheral story garbage.

>There are various sub-plots, with an over-arcing plot that is effected by the outcome of subplots.
Oh wow; there are countless sub-plots in a game of hockey too! my buddy has a huge amount of money riding on the Avalanches to win, boy I sure hope they do. One of the players hates someone on the other team he is going to try to beat the shit out of them in the game. Another subplot: someone in the crowd wants to get laid. The hot-dog seller hopes to sell a certain amount of hot-dogs. So many subplots, and none of it is relevant to how we assess the game itself.

1/2

[Anonymous No.1673992]

DA1 had excellent writing. DA2 is more about your companion development and is very formulaic centered around predictable events.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1673995]

>how much freedom do we ask the innocent man to sacrifice so that potentially dangerous people may be hunted. Should you be able to kill those people, or should you lock them up? Do they get a trial? Or do you take matters into your own hands?
SO FUCKING WHAT, THIS IS NEITHER HERE NOR THERE. THE ALLEGORIES COULD BE ANYTHING. "HOW mUCH FREEDOm SHOULD CLOWNS WHO FUCK CHILDREN BE GIVEN" "WHO TOOK THE COOKIES FROm THE COOKIE JAR". THIS DOES NOT TELL YOU THE SLIGHTEST THING ABOUT THE CAPACITY OF VIDEO GAmES TO BE A GOOD STORY-TELLING mEDIUm

>The music is... better than most other video games
some hockey matches have better music than others. wow

>the dialogue isn't nearly as painful as most fantasy books
some sports commentary in matches is good, other sports commentary in matches is bad

>The artwork is done well, and the "look" beats most of the other stuff I have played... not that I play a lot of stuff.
Some jerseys and team emblems are better designed than other jerseys and team emblems

none of these things have any reason to convince us that either hockey games or video games are or should strive to be good story-telling media

2/2

[Anonymous No.1674000]

video games require next to no thinking, you go around and press buttons every now and then

fuck off weeaboo

[Anonymous No.1674003]

>>1673991
Unless you're watching The Mighty Ducks there is no character development occuring during the game itself; which is what the point is about.

[Anonymous No.1674010]

ITT: D&E is butthurt because video games are good art.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674014]

>>1674003
>talks about characterisation
>says absolutely nothing about character development

>there is no character development occuring during the game itself;

OHHHH AND GRETSKY HAS HAD THE SHIT KICKED OUT OF HIm BY DERP mCHERP, LADIES AND GENTLEmEN, HE'S GOING TO BE A BIT mORE BITTERHIS STEP AND FUCKING HATE mCHERP, BUT WHOAH THIS CERTAINLY ISN'T CHARACTER DEVELOPmENT

next point plz

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674020]

>>1674010
ITT: OP got fucking TOLD by D&E and has now resorted to samefaggotry.

just another day in the tripfag v.s. anonymous arena....

[Anonymous No.1674023]

>>1674014

whether he mentions it or not, da2 actually is all about the development of each character
in one pass you cannot bring all of the additional characters to their self realization but each character has a storyline unto themselves that is about overcoming their tragic flaw
maybe you should play it before you criticize it

[Anonymous No.1674031]

DeepnEdgy, none of the games you mention last for 60 hours.

[Anonymous No.1674036]

>>1674014

Ezio Auditore da Firenze - A very good example of character development for a game.

[☿ !Rrxa7zePwI No.1674044]

this thread is all sorts of grotesque

[Anonymous No.1674046]

>>1674036

Really? I can't get over the initial concept.

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674051]

>>1674031
neither do short stories. i dont think duration has much to do with this thread specifically. OP asked if vidya is a good story-telling medium. answer is no. butthurt nerds who dont know what the want from books and dont know what the want from games beyond escapism and elitism are butthurt about this.

[Anonymous No.1674052]

>>1674046

He goes from being a spoilt brat obsessed with his one outlet (vaginas) to a far more mature man concerned with larger societal issues.

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674059]

>>1674044
>lame dig #147
go outside for a change and put down those books onionring. you need some inspiration, badly.

[Anonymous No.1674068]

Personally, I find games with a narrative as limited as a football game to generally be unworthy of my time. Like a good book, I like to be immersed into the game, and a solid narrative can achieve that.

I play MarioKart 64 though so my opinion may not mean much.

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674070]

>>1674052
why

[Anonymous No.1674072]

Books are stories

Movies are stories with visuals

Video games, particularly rpgs, are interactive stories with visuals


Video games and Books are on opposite ends of the spectrum. If you like filling in blanks like character designs and voices with your imagination, then books are the best medium.

If you want to see aspects such as character design and voices as the creator intended, then video games are the best medium.

Period.

/thread

Deepedgy try watching the story of MGS3 without all of the interactive bits
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq1Fz2iqT78

[☿ !Rrxa7zePwI No.1674074]

>>1674059
do you want to go for a walk little boy

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674080]

>>1674074
no thank you. also dont call me little boy. i want no part in your sad fantasy.

[Anonymous No.1674083]

>>1674070
>>1674070

Because of events in his life etc. The same way in which all people develop as people?

[☿ !Rrxa7zePwI No.1674091]

>>1674080
i'll call you anything i please, little boy

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674096]

>>1674023
>da2 actually is all about the development of each character
No, it is not all about anything like that. It is about play, and "character development" and "art style" and "handjobs from the developers" are all peripheral (there is no literary "character development" coded in a game, it is supposed and arbitrarily so, just like in fucking hockey games, in chess, in anything) to the actual game itself; it is your business whether you enjoy them or not.

>>1674072
Guess what you stupid fucking asshole, THEY ALL HAVE VISUALS:

BOOKS HAVE PAGES WITH PRINTED TEXT
mOVIES HAVE FILm REELS PROJECTED ON A SURFACE
VIDEO GAmES HAVE PIXEL DISPLAYS

YOU'RE mISTAKING "VISUALS" FOR THE THOUGHTS THAT GO ON IN YOUR HEAD

[Anonymous No.1674097]

>>1674072
videogames give freedom for the player to do what they want, therefore character development is usually shit or nonexistent (silent protagonists)

if there's good character development in a game it's usually completely linear... aka a shit game.

[Anonymous No.1674102]

>>1674072

Except... you're excluding the individual quality of each and every written work and videogame, which largely determines which is worth your time and which is not.

I believe video games can be art, given the right team of people.

For example: I believe Team ICO's two PS2 titles are works of art; I also consider ThatGameCompany's "Flower" to be a work of art. I'm not going to go out and fight tooth and nail to convince a small group of intellectual wanna-be elitists that I'm correct, but yes, I think the above mentioned titles show artistic merit. Do I hold them as dear to my heart as some of my favorite novels? No, but that does not undermine their own worth.

I just realized I got side-tracked: I believe a video-game can more accurately tell a story when it uses a minimalist approach (Flower and Shadow of the Colossus being two great examples) to executing its narrative. Videogames are still a fairly young medium, and I believe we will see new approachs to story conveyance in time; look at Uncharted 2: Among Thieves. Most of the dialgoue and character development took place while you were playing the game.

Anyways, I'm bored now. Bye.

[Anonymous No.1674103]

>>1674096

Surely then character development in any fiction is irrelevant because it's been predetermined by whomever created the story?

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674108]

>>1674096
>YOU'RE mISTAKING "VISUALS" FOR THE THOUGHTS THAT GO ON IN YOUR HEAD

well, not really. It would be more accurate to say that you're just a short-sighted retard who thinks that just because books do not as directly convey their content to you that they are somehow illusionary phantasms that occur in your brain

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674114]

>>1674103
I'd like you to tell me in no uncertain words how you would make that jump from what I specifically said

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674116]

>>1674091
well i cant stop you but you're only doing yourself harm by pretending you are some sort of goddess here among babies and then returning to the sad sack of generic shit you are irl.

[Anonymous No.1674117]

>>1674096

You know what I mean, and you have yet to disprove my point

Movies and video games have moving pictures and sounds to tell the story

A book just has words and an occasional illustration.

Even comics and RPGs have a bunch of words to illustrate the point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0bL6tvynOQ

[Anonymous No.1674126]

>>1674097

Character development is coded into that particular game. You can choose to abandon their development, or you can work to help them overcome their flaws, which involves learning about their history and personality. If you interact with them without taking these things into consideration, they can end up hating you.

I think you should take homeboy's advice and play the game before you make assumptions like this.

>>1674096

The player's character for DA2 does not have "coded" character development, but for young, teenage players, it has been able to spark a development in the player by making them think and confront their ideas about how certain things in life work.

Now, of course, some people are more worldly and more well read. Twilight seems profound to the right crowd, and most video games that attempt a narrative don't fall much farther from the tree.

My main point is that the medium has a great deal of potential, and that anyone who can't accept that a narrative and literary devices can be incorporated into a game is burying their head in the sand.

[☿ !Rrxa7zePwI No.1674131]

>>1674116
but i am a goddess. you are kind of a goddess too if you want to be one, although you may want to be a little angel kind of character.

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674137]

>>1674126
>t anyone who can't accept that a narrative and literary devices can be incorporated into a game is burying their head in the sand.
feel free to point out where anyone has said this ITT and what this has to do with OP's question...

[Anonymous No.1674144]

I don't understand how people can't think videogames are a legitimate way of telling stories if I'm honest. The real debate comes in when people start to discuss how much of the narrative goes on in the player's mind, instead of what's presented to them on the screen.

But then, how much of what is presented to us in a book shapes our understanding of the narrative? Things like social or historical context, or pre-existing notions of what certain are like in our imagination shape our understanding of the 'body' of the novel, surely? Granted, the outline of the story is relatively permanent, but isn't the outline of the story in games, too?

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674148]

>>1674131
ok this feels kind of like listening to the village nutcase. go for a nap, baby.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674155]

>>1674117
>You know what I mean
So you meant to be a fucking moron?

>Movies and video games have moving pictures and sounds to tell the story

>If you like filling in blanks like character designs and voices with your imagination, then books are the best medium.
You do this with everything, you just think that somehow this doesn't happen with movies or games because they convey it more directly. You have to infer that snake is a man from the signs given in the game, his outline and characteristics. You do this in a movie too, it's just as instant. But none of this happens in either the game or movie, they happen in your head. JUST LIKE BOOKS.

>>1674126
>Character development is coded into that particular game.
No it's not, show me the line of code that amounts to character development and not simply a number of preconfigured state changes. Character development is inferred, it's not coded into anything.

>it has been able to spark a development in the player by making them think and confront their ideas about how certain things in life work.
No shit, so does a good beating. But beatings aren't good forms of story-telling, and neither are games.

>the medium has a great deal of potential
Sure, and Hockey, Chess, Lacross could all be made to convey great stories next morning, I shit you not. But that would be totally besides the point of those games, just like in vidya.

[Anonymous No.1674158]

>>1674126
what game are you talking about?
MGS3 has a totally linear story, but MGS is the rare series that actually has an intriguing plot

DA2, I dunno. haven't played it

[Anonymous No.1674167]

>>1674144
Some video games are completely focused on telling stories like the one in this guy's post
>>1674117

Basically it's a story with you yourself getting the characters to different locations and overcoming physical opposition that the characters face

Tales games are baciscally fucking movies that are 60 hours too long to be released on the big screen.

Weeaboos buy into it because the visualations appeal to their HAIL JAPAN mindset. Other gamers buy it because they hear good things about the story. (Honestly, the reason why I bought tales of Symphonia)

[Anonymous No.1674175]

>>1674144

It depends on the games. My knowledge is limited on the subject, so pardon me if I use examples from the NES.

Super Mario Bros has one simple narrative. Essentially, you participate in the story where Mario rescues the Princess.

Good way to tell that story? Millions of people seemed to think so. I don't see why it is a bad way to tell the story of Mario rescuing the princess, and there is an emotional investment involved that sucks people in.

Now, consider the Legend of Zelda. While the story is still linear, the middle parts are completely up to the player. Is that a good way to tell a story? Probably not, but, again, millions of people played it.

Could, perhaps, better stories be told? Of course. I am sure it has been done many times.

Keep in mind, video games are designed for kids and teenagers. Only until recently, now that the original video game demographic has aged, are we seeing games move into uncharted territory.

In another 20 years a lot more adults will be playing video games. The stories will get better and the mechanics of the game will get better. Combine this with the amount of social interaction that occurs, and you have something far more powerful than most books.

Are those geeks wasting their time playing World of Warcraft? I think so, but they are interacting with far more people (I assume in a more superficial manner) than I ever do in one day. If I understand correctly, the World of Warcraft also tells a story of an entire fictional world. You can decide for yourself if that story is any good.

[Anonymous No.1674183]

>>1674175

>Good way to tell that story? Millions of people seemed to think so.

NOONE claims SMB has a good story

Your examples are COMPLEEETE SHIT

You have to use games from this current gen.

Games did not become story centric until around 1999

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674206]

>>1674183
nah bro, he's got this. if mario was an aid-worker rescuing a starving child in africa then mario would not be the huge brand that it is today.

[Anonymous No.1674210]

>>1674183

Again, I am sorry for being inexperienced. Super Mario Bros is a good children's story. They even made some cartoons and a movie. Not only that, it has become a franchise worth many millions.

Good vs. Evil = good story to a lot of people. The psychedelic mushrooms are just an added bonus.

[Anonymous No.1674221]

>>1674155

ahem, what is existence, but a series of states that change?

[Anonymous No.1674227]

>>1674210

Well SMB didn't sell because of the story like a bunch of RPGs do today.

It sold because it was a true video game: fun to play

[Anonymous No.1674233]

>>1674227

what is an untrue video game?

[Anonymous No.1674237]

>>1674233
One that is completely focused on story instead of gameplay like a shit ton do nowadays

[Anonymous No.1674246]

>this thread
Jesus christ, you people are worse than /v/.

[Anonymous No.1674252]

>>1674237
i reject your proposition

[Anonymous No.1674293]

>>1674246
at least it's not a tripfag thread

[oreo !!peQoYBwPn7U No.1674299]

wuts going on in here

[Anonymous No.1674685]

[Anonymous No.1674686]

[Anonymous No.1674688]

[Anonymous No.1674689]

[Anonymous No.1674694]

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674695]

>>1674237
+1 everything that's wrong with current gen. dev teams think they are artists or something.

[Anonymous No.1674704]

Yes, see Killer 7.

Also, I just wanna say D&E, your argument about video games being similar to sports is absolutely terrible. You might as well compare the process of playing a video game to peeling open a banana on a tropical cruise full of rich white self-deprecating people and it'll be just as accurate--in other words, nonsensical.

[Anonymous No.1674708]

>>1674704

He just mad cuz he could never beat king koopa

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674714]

>>1674704
>video games being similar to sports
yeah, they're both games

>peeling open a banana on a tropical cruise full of rich white self-deprecating people
not a game so there'd be no reason to. You're full of shit

[remurmur !Zm/YKPWYiw No.1674720]

Bitches don't know about my visual novels.

Planetarian: Chiisana Hoshi no Yume emotionally wrecked me far more than any traditional novel ever has.

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1674721]

>>1674714
... some video games function well as a storytelling device, others do not.

that is all.

[Anonymous No.1674728]

Yes, I think it does.

I have a theory that a game is modern form of coming-of-age novels. Games like Outcast, Alundra and Terranigma are really strong games solely around the story and how the protagonist grow up during the game.

However, alot of game developers either ignored it or just tried but faile hard.

[Anonymous No.1674730]

oh hey, a video games have a serious story thread! what's going on here...

>examples of good stories
>MGS
>DA2

fuck you guys, this is why games aren't respected

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1674732]

>>1674730
>thinks his shitty weaboo game has a better plot than mgs2

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1674739]

>>1674732
>inferring somebody is a weaboo
>arguing about video games

I fucking lold.

[Anonymous No.1674743]

>>1674732
>thinks I wasn't talking about western games

[Anonymous No.1674746]

>>1674137

What makes a good story?

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674762]

>>1674721
>storytelling device
There is no "story-telling device", there are only devices used for story-telling e.g. pens, paper, tongues, screens, etc. You don't seem to grasp how a medium works; a film is not a storytelling device, it tells a story through devices (screen, reel), a video-game is not a "storytelling device" although it can tell a story through devices (monitor, speakers).

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1674773]

>>1674762
>pedantic

[Anonymous No.1674778]

Wow. Totally different class of trolling going on in here. I'm going back to /fit/.

[Anonymous No.1674780]

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674781]

>>1674762
so let's translate this sentence given what I've written about how it is totally misleading to say of video-games that they are story-telling devices any more than movies are or talking is

>some video-games function well as (monitors, speakers, etc) others do not. Which is a pretty bare point; different video-games perform better or worse under the constraints of their hardware.

[Anonymous No.1674782]

>>1674762

This post could easily be the most worthless thing ever posted on /lit/, and that's saying a fucking lot.

[Anonymous No.1674785]

>>1674762

so you admit it

[Anonymous No.1674788]

>>1674720
>"Your cuter this way"
yeah.10/10 story telling there.

[Anonymous No.1674792]

-Good characters
-A good argument
-An unexpected change in the middle of the game
This game should be a book.

[Anonymous No.1674793]

>>1674762
you are not in 420chan duuuude. No one is impressed.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674794]

>>1674782
You're just angry that you will never produce something as clear and revelatory as this in your lifetime whereas this takes about a sip or two of coffee for me to write out

>>1674785
admit what, that Doombear was essentially saying that some video games work better under some hardware than others? Big fucking deal

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1674800]

>>1674794
I didn't say that, it was a deliberate inference on your part.

Also, I called you a pedant.

[Anonymous No.1674801]

[☿ !Rrxa7zePwI No.1674806]

d&e that was pretty bad it's okay to admit

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674807]

>>1674800
>I didn't say that, it was a deliberate inference on your part.
Wow Dumbear you are really good at saying obvious shit, just like what you essentially said about video-games running better or worse depending on their hardware

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674808]

>>1674806
I'd like you to tell me exactly how that was bad chandlerbing

[☿ !Rrxa7zePwI No.1674809]

>>1674808
it's unclean.

[Anonymous No.1674812]

/v/ here, you're all faggots.

[Anonymous No.1674813]

I'm new to lit but this Deep and Edgy guy really has his head up his own ass.

Intellectuals don't exist on 4cha, you are just a butthurt troll trying waaay too hard to make a point.

Keep trying though, I'm sure you reassure your own self worth enough with every post. Nothing anon says will ever sway your vast ego.

[Anonymous No.1674818]

yes

[Anonymous No.1674820]

what sophistry is this?

>Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story? Also, why is/isn't it?

yes. some good stories that have entertained millions of people have been told through video games.

why is that so hard to accept?

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674822]

>>1674809
>spend time in the cesspit
>expect to be squeeky clean

[Anonymous No.1674823]

>Control+F
>planescape
>Phrase not found

of fuck you guys

[Anonymous No.1674826]

Go play Xenogears and Nier.

Then tell me they aren't.

[Anonymous No.1674828]

tetris speaks to the timeless struggle of man versus L shaped block

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1674829]

>>1674807
>pointing out the obvious
Aspergers must be difficult for you to cope with.

Anyway, I'm off, to empathize with other human beings. We'll talk later, I know where to find you.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674831]

>>1674820
Hey, this guy is pretty promising let's see if he'll elaborate for us

HEY DUDE, HOW IS ONE STORY BETTER THAN ANOTHER

[Anonymous No.1674834]

>>1674831

its subjective

[Anonymous No.1674835]

>>1674831

so you are saying that it is impossible to tell a good story in a video game?

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674839]

>>1674835
No, I'm asking how one story is better or worse than another. Can't you fucking read?

[Anonymous No.1674840]

>>1674834

Here we go again.

[☿ !Rrxa7zePwI No.1674841]

d&e are you still stuck on the subject object thing come on it's 2011

[Anonymous No.1674842]

>>1674839

not so much. can you answer a simple fucking question? or do you just resort to evasive tactics when anyone tries to nail you down on something?

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674847]

>>1674842
>can you answer a simple fucking question?
Yes. See, I did just there, now you try!

>resort to evasive tactics
>keeps asking me questions instead of answering the original question

If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about just admit it bro, you will be just like the other 30 people I've wiped the floor with ITT so it's nothing to be embarrassed about

[Anonymous No.1674849]

You're a fool deep and edgy, and ironically you are neither deep nor edgy. I would greatly appreciate it if instead of defiling this board with your unthoughtful and mundane responses you lurkmoar or leave completely, the latter would be preferable.

[Anonymous No.1674850]

[Anonymous No.1674853]

Morrowind. If you've ever gone into some deep dungeon in the warren empty of Sheogorad and then just sat your character down to read one of the books you find in there you know wtf I'm talking about.

Mine was when I found "Trap" in Mournhold

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674854]

>>1674841
I am dumbing it down for the idiots itt (it is a thread about video-games after all), otherwise I might as well be speaking Swahili or something to them

[Anonymous No.1674858]

>>1674847

Actually, you haven't provided anything substantial accept that there is no character development in video games, which is wrong.

You went on about different states being programmed in, but different states is exactly what makes up a developing character. You were already called out on it.

Your ridiculous sports analogy doesn't fly either because it has already been established ad nauseum that many stories have been told through video games that many people consider "good."

Furthermore, it seems obvious that (and this also already been said) that there is a great deal of potential for there to be great stories told through the medium of video games.

Whatever elements that make up a story in a book can be applied to a video game. Just because *every* element from stories in books haven't been applied yet, doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Many video games that have told stories make a strong effort to imply a much larger reality than they are able to present, as well, so the player's imagination creates a much larger view of the universe or world in which has been laid before them.

You haven't mopped the floor with anyone in this thread, at all. You just attempt to make your prejudice against video games sound good.

[Anonymous No.1674864]

[Anonymous No.1674866]

d&e as good as you are at goading people into posting voluminous amounts of white noise i wish you wouldn't do that because it isn't interesting to read

thanks in advance man

[Anonymous No.1674869]

[Anonymous No.1674874]

>>1674866

dne samefagging obv

[deep and edgy !uucIbqjoOQ No.1674875]

>>1674762
>There are no spaceships only ships used in space
>There are no free men only men who are free
>There are no ass rapes only rapes that occur through the ass

[Anonymous No.1674877]

At least he remember to take out the trip, this time.

[Anonymous No.1674878]

Sonic the Hedgehog is fucking confusing.

[Deep&edgy !uucIbqjoOQ No.1674882]

I attended philosophy 101 in college so I'm an expert on existentialism and the view that everything is subjective so that's why I like to argue all the time knowing that everyone is always a fool in believing that their beliefs mean anything

[Anonymous No.1674883]

[Anonymous No.1674885]

>>1673845
Football is fucking great. You're just mad because you're an unathletic sissy and probably got bullied in highschool, thus you became a tripfag to generate a false sense of being wanted, lathering a thick, useless cream of lies over your deep emotional scars.

Faggot.

[Anonymous No.1674890]

[Anonymous No.1674891]

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674899]

>>1674858
>there is no character development in video games, which is wrong.
No it's not, show me the line of code that amounts to character development and not simply a number of preconfigured state changes. Character development is inferred, it's not coded into anything. CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IS NOT "IN" A VIDEO GAME ANY MORE THAN THE COLOR GREY IS "IN" A STONE YOU FUCKING MORON.

>different states is exactly what makes up a developing character
Different states are not in and of themselves character development, again that is an inference made on your part.

>Your ridiculous sports analogy doesn't fly either because many stories have been told through video games that many people consider "good."
A)MANY STORIES HAVE BEEN TOLD THROUGH DEVICES USED BY VIDEO GAMES, VIDEO GAMES THEMSELVES AS CODE DO NOT TELL ANYTHING, YOU FUCKING MORON.
B)COOL FALLACIOUS APPEAL TO THE MAJORITY, WHICH HAPPENS TO BE IDIOTIC AS THIS THREAD DEMONSTRATES
C)MY ANALOGY FLYS PERFECTLY WELL BECAUSE IT WOULD BE ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO TELL A "GOOD" STORY THROUGH A GAME OF FOOTBALL, GIVEN PROPER PRECONDITIONS JUST AS ONE COULD THROUGH A VIDEO-GAME, WHICH IS ALL THAT I HAVE SAID, YOU FUCKING MORON

1/2

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674906]

>>1674899


>it seems obvious that (and this also already been said) that there is a great deal of potential for there to be great stories told through the medium of video games.
THERE IS ALSO A GREAT AMOUNT OF POTENTIAL FOR GREAT STORIES TO BE TOLD THROUGH HOCKEY GAMES AND FOOTBALL TOO. I WONDER WHY THIS HASN'T HAPPENED THOUGH.

>Whatever elements that make up a story in a book can be applied to a video game
VIDEO GAMES DO NOT TAKE PLACE ON PAPER WITH INK, SORRY YOU RETARD. JUST LIKE HOW FOOTBALL GAMES DON'T, OR HOCKEY GAMES DON'T.

>
>Many video games that have told stories make a strong effort to imply a much larger reality than they are able to present, as well, so the player's imagination creates a much larger view of the universe or world in which has been laid before them.
NO SHIT, IS THAT A RETARDED WAY TO SAY THAT PEOPLE TEND TO IMAGINE AND EXPAND ON SHIT GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY?

>You haven't mopped the floor with anyone in this thread, at all
THERE'S AT LEAST YOU, RETARD.

[Anonymous No.1674908]

>>1674899
>>1674906
u mad

[Anonymous No.1674921]

>>1674906
>>1674899
hey d&e, you forget caps lock on

[Anonymous No.1674922]

>>1674899

you are just playing word games and making up definitions to avoid the fact that you are wrong
i suppose it is possible that you are doing it unconsciously
character development occurs as certain video games progress, sorry to break it to you
different states are required for character development, though can occur if a character isn't developing... so fucking what?
you still haven't made a useful rebuttal

then you just get mad and become caps guy

stories are told through video games, a lot of them are good

this isn't appealing to the majority, this is just the inevitable result of the creation of thousands of video games

is every book good? no, but it would be stupid to say that books aren't good for telling stories

the potential to tell a story in a 2 hour game is not the same potential that lies in a 60 hour game where the creators are free to incorporate any story line they want

so fucking stupid, that comparison, how about you make it again, and pretend that you actually believe they have the same artistic freedom between the two mediums?

resorting to caps mean u man and you just got mopped

and you didn't address the most important point...

maybe you can explain which elements of story telling via book CANNOT be incorporated into a video game

i will be patiently awaiting the answer to that question

[Anonymous No.1674925]

>Whatever elements that make up a story in a book can be applied to a video game.

win

[Anonymous No.1674930]

>>1674922
>i will be patiently awaiting the answer to that question
inb4 I'M THE BEST TRIPFAG OF /LIT/ SO YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID

[Anonymous No.1674931]

D&E makes me rage. He deserves to get raped by ten gorillas and then eaten by rats. Yes, he really is that stupid in his arrogance.

[Anonymous No.1674932]

One post:

Video games are a very viable storytelling medium. It is simply that there are so few games that focus on it, and when they do, the game mechanics are usually bodgied up. However, if one were to attain a near-perfect marriage of gameplay and story and merge the two together (in a manner similar to Heavy Rain, or even the upcoming L.A. Noire), then you would see something that no-one can deny.

David Cage had it right when he said that video games are like pornography. The story segments are there to offer a context to what you are seeing and little else besides. You are usually forced to view these cutscenes to progress to more gameplay, and this is a wrong way of going about it, if you want a great story. Don't get me wrong, Uncharted and MGS are both have great plotlines, but between the story elements, you are asked to get from point to point and kill a bunch of people on the way, thus taking away from the narrative believability, which brings me back to Heavy Rain.

Everything you do in-game pertains to the story. Every move you make, step you take and action you perform has an effect. Every dialogue choice has different results. Sure, it's all scripted, but how is that any different from a novel? They are both continuous stories.

And to compare video games to sports, or chess or whatever else is completely asinine. Physical games have no intended story, and so are not subject to the same distinctions. Video games are more comparable to movies, due to their very nature.

[Deep&Edgy !uucIbqjoOQ No.1674935]

>>1674921
I used my caps because I'm infuriated with the level of incompetence exhibited by the individuals in this thread. I'm sorry.

[Anonymous No.1674940]

>>1674935
Stop being mad at yourself. Just don't post and the threads would be fine, bro.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674943]

>>1674906
>Whatever elements that make up a story in a book can be applied to a video game

I should probably elaborate on this.
>whatever elements that make up a story in a book
Signs is what makes up a story, whether it be written or verbal or whatever. Thus, this has nothing to do with books because signs are used in all sorts of contexts, not just textual. A film uses signs, a letter uses signs, a video-game uses signs. More simply, a story is a told sequence of events. Now that's hardly restricted to books in the first place. So duh, a video-game uses a told sequence of events (a told sequence of signs), just like any other medium. This says absolutely nothing about whether a video-game is any better suited to telling a story than films or books. PRO TIP: A STORY DOES NOT MAKE A BOOK "GOOD" ANY MORE THAN IT DOES A FILM OR VIDEOGAME.
A MOVIE IS "GOOD" BECAUSE OF ITS DIRECTING, THE SHOTS, ETC. A VIDEOGAME IS "GOOD" BECAUSE OF ITS PLAY MECHANICS.

this is just an aside however

[Deep&Edgy !uucIbqjoOQ No.1674944]

>>1674940
You're right I'm sorry :(

[Anonymous No.1674945]

[Anonymous No.1674946]

>This says absolutely nothing about whether a video-game is any better suited to telling a story than films or books.

got that right

[Anonymous No.1674951]

D&E:
A game is indeed good because of its mechanics, but that doesn't automatically make it a bad medium for the telling of stories, which is ultimately what the OP of this thread was asking.

So, the base question is: Can a good story be told through video games, regardless of the quality of the game itself?

[Anonymous No.1674953]

[Anonymous No.1674955]

[Anonymous No.1674956]

>>1674943
You are absolutely right however it was put rather oddly. At any rate you are contradicting your earlier self which is okay, your earlier stand was absurd anyways.
I'm aware you're going to say something to the contrary so I'll point it out here.
>"do you think football is a good way to tell a story"
This statement implies sarcasm and a general disagreement with the previous statement about video games being an acceptable medium for telling a story which it absolutely is simply like film. It's merely more interactive like those books where you choose what action the character takes and go to a particular page.

[Anonymous No.1674958]

[Anonymous No.1674960]

D&E is wrong, and he is trying to figure out a way to make it look like he was right.

[Anonymous No.1674966]

[Anonymous No.1674967]

d&e thinks he's smart. Doesn't matter, i'm smarter and i say he's stupid. No use trying to prove otherwise because i said so.

[Anonymous No.1674970]

>>1674967
I see what you did there :D

[Anonymous No.1674971]

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674972]

>>1674922
>character development occurs as certain video games progress
Yes, but not in the fucking video game, which is what you originally asserted, shithead.

>stories are told through video games, a lot of them are good
MANY STORIES HAVE BEEN TOLD THROUGH DEVICES USED BY VIDEO GAMES, VIDEO GAMES THEMSELVES AS CODE DO NOT TELL ANYTHING, YOU FUCKING MORON.
Again, how is one story better than another.

>this isn't appealing to the majority
>many stories have been told through video games that many people consider "good."
Yes, it is, dipshit.

>is every book good? no, but it would be stupid to say that books aren't good for telling stories
COOL. I'M GLAD I NEVER SAID EITHER BOOKS OR VIDEO-GAMES ARE OR AREN'T GOOD FOR TELLING STORIES, YOU FUCKING MORON

>how about you make it again
IT WOULD BE ENTIRELY POSSIBLE TO TELL A "GOOD" STORY THROUGH A GAME OF FOOTBALL, GIVEN PROPER PRECONDITIONS JUST AS ONE COULD THROUGH A VIDEO-GAME, WHICH IS ALL THAT I HAVE SAID, YOU FUCKING MORON

>maybe you can explain which elements of story telling via book CANNOT be incorporated into a video game
Of course you can, I never said you couldn't. And you can just as easily incorporate a sign, or even something literary (or to you, DURR BOOK STUFF) like a metaphor, into a football game.


>>1674951
>ultimately what the OP of this thread was asking.
>Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story? Also, why is/isn't it?

>So, the base question is: Can a good story be told through video games, regardless of the quality of the game itself?

By 'ultimately' do you mean "in fact not at all the same question" or something

>>1674956
>you are contradicting your earlier self which is okay, your earlier stand was absurd anyways.
No, I'm not, and no, it was not.

>This statement implies sarcasm and a general disagreement
Maybe that is what a monkey would infer from it, I don't know because I am not a monkey

[Anonymous No.1674976]

[Anonymous No.1674981]

>>1674972
Please stop you have already changed your stance to agree with the majority of the anons you are just being pedantic and hipsterish right now. You're arguing for the sake of arguing one of the prime indications of a child.

[Anonymous No.1674985]

>>1674972
ITT D&E making an ass of himself and proving, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that he knows nothing about anything.

This thread should be archived as a way to record his failure for future generations.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1674988]

>>1674972

>COOL. I'M GLAD I NEVER SAID EITHER BOOKS OR VIDEO-GAMES ARE OR AREN'T GOOD FOR TELLING STORIES, YOU FUCKING MORON

inb4 someone asks me what I have been doing then in this whole thread. I haven't said that video-games are either good or bad for telling stories, just as I haven't said that either football or hockey are either good or bad for telling stories. THAT IS TO MISS THE POINT.

>>1674981
>>1674985
I am the best.

[Anonymous No.1674989]

D&E, you're coming off as a real pedantic, pretentious asshole.

Quit pulling apart every word that people have said here.

For the benefit of everyone in this thread, just answer OP's question plainly without any of your sidestepping bullshittery: "Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story? Also, why is/isn't it?"

[Anonymous No.1674994]

>>1674988
Jusst because your mom tells you something doesn't make it true, kid.

[Anonymous No.1675000]

Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story?
Can a good story be told through video games?

The questions are the same, dipshit. You're just refusing to see and acknowledge that fact. Moreover, you do nothing but try to drag the argument away from that core question. Why not just answer it, and tell us, in no uncertain terms, exactly WHY you think that video games cannot tell a good story.

Oh, that's right, because you're a pathetic tripfag without the capacity to take hold of a simple concept, and explain yourself with any degree of acuity.

[Anonymous No.1675004]

>>1674972

>Yes, but not in the fucking video game, which is what you originally asserted, shithead.

??? I don't know that you are referring to the same person. I believe the original assertion was that character development occurs in Dragon Age 2. I doesn't matter which video game it occurs in, however, since it is possible that it occurs in a video game.

It is another evasive maneuver when you ask what makes one story better than another. If you don't think there is any such thing as a good story, then that should have been your original argument. Obviously, it wasn't. It was some faggotry about football or hockey, which was brilliantly stupid.

>I'M GLAD I NEVER SAID EITHER BOOKS OR VIDEO-GAMES ARE OR AREN'T GOOD FOR TELLING STORIES, YOU FUCKING MORON

Then what the fuck are you saying? There is nothing but tiny little shits dripping from your fingers as you type.

How about you answer the fucking question...

What elements that make up a story in a book can not be applied to a video game?

Spare us your sophistry. What, specifically, is beyond the scope of a video game, as relates to communicating a story?

[Anonymous No.1675006]

>>1674988
No i'm the best>>1674967

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1675008]

>>1675004
>it is possible that it occurs in a video game.
CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IS NOT "IN" A VIDEO GAME ANY MORE THAN THE COLOR GREY IS "IN" A STONE YOU FUCKING MORON.

>Then what the fuck are you saying?
I'm not saying anything, I'm showing how everything you've said is wrong.

>What elements that make up a story in a book can not be applied to a video game?
see
>>1674972

[Anonymous No.1675012]

A sports game has static characters, a static setting, a static time frame, and only one of two (possibly three) outcomes. Video games where sports are played are not designed to tell stories, and neither are sports games themselves.

A video game, OTOH, has a great deal of flexibility. None of those things are static, and they can tell a story of they want, or they can be pure button mashing if they want.

[Anonymous No.1675017]

I'm sort of new to /lit/. I have only been browsing for a month, but Deep&Edgy seems like a very sad man/teenager. He's clearly living in this self-constructed bubble where the world should revolve around him due to his general superiority, when that's blatantly not the case. Even when others provide imperical evidence that he is some sort of child playing in his perfect, yet fictitious, sandbox, Deep&Edgy's ego serves as a kelvar vest blocking the bullets of truth and criticism that jet towards him.

We all know people like Deep&Edgy. These people are sad, unlikeable, contribute very little to society, and are villified by socially functional humans in general.

May God help his soul.

[Anonymous No.1675018]

>>1675008

then character development is not in a book any more than grey is in a stone

a lot of elements in a book cannot be incorporated into a hockey game

but they can be incorporated into a video game

you fail

[Anonymous No.1675023]

>>1675008
And yet again D&E avoids the core question.

We shouldn't even indulge this asshole by participating in his petty linguistical arguments.

Just answer the question: 'Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story? Also, why is/isn't it?'

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1675024]

>>1675018
>then character development is not in a book any more than grey is in a stone
Of course not

>a lot of elements in a book cannot be incorporated into a hockey game
give me an example

[Anonymous No.1675026]

>>1675008
D&E doesn't know what "in" means.

[Anonymous No.1675034]

>>1675017
True; we shouldn't be angry at D&E, we should pity him. I know, you know and he certainly knows that he is a pedantic asshole.

[Anonymous No.1675035]

>>1675024

example?
the 18th century

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1675038]

>>1675035
>the 18th century
that's not an example, that's a time date. Another fucking retard response like that and I will ignore you.

[Anonymous No.1675041]

>>1675038
Too stupid to understand an example when you're given one, bro?

[Anonymous No.1675042]

examples of elements of a story that cannot be incorporated into a hockey game, lets see...

The Legend of Zelda
The Passion of the Christ
nihilism
a car accident
the Holocaust

fuck man... it goes on and on

[Anonymous No.1675045]

>>1675038

except that the 18th Century CAN be incorporated into a video game

lol, was that willful ignorance, or are you really in denial?

[Anonymous No.1675048]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games_set_in_the_18th_century

[Anonymous No.1675051]

>>1675042
I'd play the shit out of a holocaust hockey game.

[Anonymous No.1675052]

When a thread like this gets this big, you know that something is seriously wrong.

[Anonymous No.1675053]

The question at hand Deep&Edgy, I will stress it again: "Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story? Also, why is/isn't it?"

You won't get anywhere until you give us a straight answer.

[Anonymous No.1675056]

>>1675034
I realize that I am new, but I feel that my opinion is, for the most part, backed by evidence and matching opinions from other browsers and posters of /lit/.

[Anonymous No.1675057]

>>1675053
He won't give a straight answer, because that would involve him admitting he was wrong.

[Anonymous No.1675062]

[Anonymous No.1675063]

[Anonymous No.1675064]

>>1675056
(posted early, continued)

I know I sound like a tripfag here, but I feel that my post deserves some recognition from D&E himself, but from tripfags across 4chan as well. I can imagine that you agree with me.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1675066]

>>1675042
All of those could appear in different forms in a hockey game; even in something as simple as arena advertising

>>1675045
>except that the 18th Century CAN be incorporated into a video game
Never said it couldn't

>>1675053
>"Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story? Also, why is/isn't it?"
They are more or less as good a way to tell a story as telling a story through football, chess, tic-tac-toe. Why are they more or less as good? Because they're all games.

This is the last response I will make in this thread because there haven't been any more goons with something pseudo-intelligent for me to demolish and all that remain are like three guys trying too hard/not hard enough maybe to troll me, gg guys but you suck at this, both trolling and arguing.

/LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1 /LIT/ = 0 DEEP&EDGY = 1

[Anonymous No.1675065]

[Anonymous No.1675067]

>>1675064

true, foregone conclusion and all
while a number of people have lined up against D&E, he is the only one who has been ITT all day long

[Anonymous No.1675070]

>>1675066

How do you advertise nihilism in a hockey game? how can a hockey game have an 18th Century setting?

now you are just being retarded

[Anonymous No.1675072]

>>1675066

The last line of defense for someone who has been proven wrong.

[Anonymous No.1675073]

>>1675066
Humiliated and defeated, D&E desperately tries to cling to his facade of pseudo-intelligence as he flees the thread in tears and terror.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Anonymous No.1675074]

[Anonymous No.1675077]

>>1675066
Thank you for finally answering the question before leaving and effectively surrendering.

Have a nice pedantic, asshole life.

[☿ !Rrxa7zePwI No.1675078]

>>1675070
who gives a fuck lol it's a game

[Anonymous No.1675079]

[Anonymous No.1675089]

>>1675066
This guy needs help, he's clearly delusional.

[Anonymous No.1675092]

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1675093]

>>1675089
says the lad samefagging....

[Anonymous No.1675096]

>>1675093

If he is, I can live with it. It's not like you've never samefagged before. Don't lie. we know its true.

[Anonymous No.1675098]

[None !WvWWh.l.CE No.1675104]

>>1675096
i dont think i have. well i cant remember.

[Anonymous No.1675107]

>>1675067
I'm considering taking a well-armed stand against D&E. I've tried to take a stand against the tripfags of /x/, but they were all too stupid to comprehend conventional logic. On the other hand, D&E might have a hidden coin of enlightment trapped within the couch of his own stupidity. I have a shot.

[Anonymous No.1675112]

well armed?

[Anonymous No.1675115]

>>1675107
No you don't.

[Anonymous No.1675116]

>>1675104
Hihihihihii.....

[Anonymous No.1675117]

>>1673916
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2545-Narrative-Mechanics

You didn't even know how troll you just were.

[Anonymous No.1675118]

Holey moley! How did I miss this epic failure of D&E? My god, I always thought he was pretty thick, but I had no idea he is this childish. Just like in Go the most respectable thing to do in a conversation is to admit that you are wrong right when the realization comes. Which for D&E was like two posts in. Very immature to try to keep searching for a slippery enough hole.

[Anonymous No.1675121]

[Anonymous No.1675122]

>>1675112
Hot.

[Anonymous No.1675125]

I've really considered never coming back to /lit/ after seeing this thread in addition to some of the other shit posted today. This place is inhabited by the poorest of trolls and yet plenty of people willing to take a ride with them.

I've gotten some good recommendations from here but goddamn you people are stupid.
>>1674762
This has to be one of the stupidest things I've read in some time. I just hope I don't wake up tomorrow a drooling retard due to the braincells lost witnessing such idiocy.

[Anonymous No.1675126]

>>1675118

Sometimes the slippery holes are elusive, but when you finally find one... it is worth it.

[Anonymous No.1675128]

no such thing as a story telling device

unless it is a little machine that tells me stories

http://www.writerspost.com/literatefolk/literarydevices.htm

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1675152]

>Do you think video games is a good way to tell a story? Also, why is/isn't it?
>Do you think electronic games are a means that are conducive to the relative end of telling a story? Why are they/why are they not?
A) Electronic games on their own tell no more of a story than football games on their own or chess on its own does. A Book does not tell a story in its own either.
Electronic games conveys a story by means of devices such as a screen, football conveys a story as simple as "team 1 is winning, team 2 is losing" through the device of an announcement board, a book conveys a story by means of paper and text (ebooks do it with a monitor, etc etc)

Therefore the question is better formulated as:
"Are the devices (the medium, if you don't want to break it down) which convey stories in video-games a good means of conveying stories? Why/Why not?"

There are a number of ridiculously simple answers to that:
A) Not if you get headaches from looking at screens a lot
B) Not if you're deaf or blind
C)Yes if you prefer pressing buttons and watching a screen to reading
D)Not if you don't have electricity
E)Not if you don't have any money and don't have any friends
F)Yes if want to enjoy the story with other people

There are numerous, numerous reasons which will suit one individual less or more than another, hence the most reasonable response is a simple ethical descriptive statement of the IF THEN kind. And none of this has anything to do with deluded garbage like "good stories" or all this peripheral crap:

>the exploration of power dynamics in civilization and you, as a player, even learn about where you stand, philosophically, in regards to gray moral areas. Sure, this happens in a lot of other games, but I have never been tested as much as this one, and I would suggest that there is room in the future for some truly great mind fucks.

I could go on and on with the number of responses that are totally off the bat in this thread.

[Anonymous No.1675161]

[Anonymous No.1675164]

>>1675152
You can't even keep to your word. You just have to keep posting and posting until you've lost every last shred of the dignity you spend so much time and energy pretending to have. You really are pathetic.

[Anonymous No.1675172]

>>1675152

lolololol

still didn't save your ass at all... drivel, pure drivel

[Anonymous No.1675177]

>>1675152

[Anonymous No.1675191]

>>1675152
So, what you are saying is that video games are an equivalent medium to hockey games for telling stories?

Unless you have a phobia towards hockey, then video games would be better.

Or, unless you have epilepsy, then hockey would be better.

Yeah, I get it now. It all makes perfect sense. You were right all along. It's so obvious, in retrospect.

You can go to bed now. We'll take it from here.

[Anonymous No.1675197]

Still searching for that slippery hole...
Frankly, I haven't seen anything like this since the Mormons were presented with DNA evidence that the Native Americans were not actually of Hebrew descent.

[Anonymous No.1675206]

http://insomnia.ac/

If you guys don't know about it, check the link. I'm pretty sure D&E is, if not one of the contributors, then definitely a student of their style of vidya criticism.

Also, why the fuck do you use "is" in that question?
Video gameS are plural, and so the correct phrasing of the OP's question would be "Do you think video games are a good way to tell a story?"

That weird disagreement is the equivalent of saying things like "Do you think books is a good way to tell a story?" or "Do you think movies is a good way to tell a story?"

If you want to use that singular verb, then you have to come up with a video-game-related term that runs parallel to the function of "text" of "film." So, a better phrasing would be "Do you think game is a good way to tell a story?" although this loses the specificity of video games.

[Anonymous No.1675215]

We negate and must negate because something in us wants to live and affirm...

[Anonymous No.1675217]

[Anonymous No.1675221]

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1675238]

Now for the real question , I.E. the one that everyone wants to think is being asked in this thread:

>"Can electronic games have good stories?"
There is no such thing as a good story or a bad story. A story is a sequence of events. There is nothing intrinsically inferior or superior to sequences of events.

Here is the question that people who aren't dumb fucks will thus ask:
"Can an electronic game be literary (that is, have literary techniques and literary devices)?"
Of course, and obviously so can movies if one accepts that these things are projected into texts in the first place.

Then the following question:
"Can an electronic game be of quality literariness?"
Of course, it can conceivably display a use of literary virtuosity on par with any movie or book given the proper preconditions

1/2

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1675241]

Here is the crucial question however, which everyone is too short-sighted to ask:
"Does quality literariness make the game itself better?"
And the answer is a fervent NO. Just as quality literariness does not make a movie any better or a book (NOT A TEXT) any better. The only thing that quality literariness improves is A TEXT. What makes one movie better than another are the cinematic techniques of that movie, the shots, the camera placement, the mise-en-scene etc etc. What makes a painting better than another is the use of painting techniques. What makes one game better than another is its mechanics.

Now, this does not mean that one video-game cannot have a better literariness to it than another but such an evaluation is TEXTUAL; it has nothing to do with the game. You are essentially asking "is (x) game a better TEXT than (y) game" you are essentially engaging in textual evaluation rather than an evaluation of the mechanics electronic games, and the same applies to movies. Now you could even extend this to books; "is A a better book than B" = are the material conditions that constitute (a) book better than the material conditions that constitute (b) book. See? Nothing to do with the actual text of the book itself, although there is some fine print (the material conditions always influence the text) they are essentially two different kinds of criticism.

2/2

[Anonymous No.1675250]

and so you have finally come around

everyone except you was already in concurrence that a a game could have both good game play and a good story... despite your sophistry... we all know what that means

[Anonymous No.1675272]

>>1675238
>>1675241
You're still wrong.

[Anonymous No.1675303]

We have just witnessed a truly remarkable lesson in Cognitive Dissonance Theory.

[Anonymous No.1675315]

>>1675303
No we haven't. We've witnessed a tripfag being their normal, hypocritical self.

[Anonymous No.1675319]

>>1675316
>>1675290
>>1675278
>>1675230
>>1675216

[Anonymous No.1675321]

[Anonymous No.1675369]

[Anonymous No.1675384]

>242 posts and 53 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.
I'm impressed D&E. Really, I am.

[Anonymous No.1675400]

[Anonymous No.1675422]

hahahaha

oh wow

[Anonymous No.1675451]

[Anonymous No.1675462]

This OP should be banned from this board...

And all the /v/tards in it!

[Anonymous No.1675543]

[Anonymous No.1675594]

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1676204]

>>1675238
You certainly did a lot of jerking everyone around before you even began to address the topic.

[Anonymous No.1676233]

just got a quick read of this thread. Its really sad the way you guys keep trolling D&E. I can say it was fun to read anyway.

[Stagolee !0Pey/QLK3E No.1676236]

>>1676233
>d&e getting trolled by anon
doh

[David, Father of Stagolee !!wsscTABNS2+ No.1676241]

>>1676236
Vagoolee! My Nigga son! Time to go to sleep.

[Stagolee !0Pey/QLK3E No.1676244]

>>1676241
too stressed
looks like another sleepless nite

[Anonymous No.1676246]

Yes, it is. Only if it's Planescape: Torment though.

[Behemoth !!Twl3DmqEY/B No.1676250]

How is it difficult to figure out that OP's question is just bullshit? How do some people not get it?
Define "good" in relation to a story. Effective? Effective at what? Getting the story across? Adequately supplying stimuli?

>Talking to friends
>Ask, "Do you think green text stories are a good way to tell a story?"
>My friend Bob said he thought so.
>We went and asked a nigger.
>He said "Yeaaahhhh nigguhhhh"
>We laughed so hard we burst into treats.

I effectively told a story. Green texting was a good (adequate, effective) way of telling the story because all the information I wanted to get across is there. The problem is that it's a stupid fucking story, and even the way of telling it is only useful here, in a context where it's recognizable and easily interpreted.

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1676252]

>>1676250
OP asked an honest question, and got shat on by other people and their pretensions.

I would think that we can be better than wild dogs, baying at one another, and nipping at each others heels... but no. No, we are not.

[Behemoth !!Twl3DmqEY/B No.1676267]

>>1676252
>an honest question
And the response to the honest question is obvious and simple:
Video games are a good way to tell a story depending entirely on what you think is "good." You just interpret your tastes into a work, the medium itself is neither good nor bad at telling a story. All of the semi-rational responses ITT back up that point.
A video game can tell a good story if you think it's a good story. Video games are a good way to tell a story if you think a video game can tell a good story.
This is a tautological junk-yard, you can mix and match the answers to this question all day long, turn it round and round and round, and it still comes down to context and interpretation.
I made a thread about "Can advertising be considered art?" a long time ago and it was the same bullshit. Sure, it's interesting for discussion but meaningless when examined.

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1676274]

>>1676267
fair enough, thats an honest answer. Personally, I feel that the naked hostility does nothing but degenerate us to the level of snarling beasts.

On the other hand, yeah, we're probably going to have to repeat ourselves once in a while. Thats a defect of this medium, the imageboard. Anything we say, or any explanations we offer, are impermeable... they'll fade into the ether before too long.

On the other hand, I think there have been some vidya games that have managed to deliver a story effectively. We don't talk about them, though.

Don't we sound really fucking smart when we tear people down, instead of actually providing them with a means to elevate themselves?

I think its a function of anonymity, that any pretense of empathy immediately disappears.

[Anonymous No.1676285]

I'm going to throw some cues in here bitches;

>Max Payne
>not /lit/ related
>text adventure

I win.
As usual.

[DoomBear !YECnz2AuxY No.1676286]

>>1676285
>go south
>look at mailbox

[Anonymous No.1676291]

>>1676285

And by cues I mean keywords.
Stupid translator fucked that up.

[Anonymous No.1676294]

do video games have the potential to have a good story? yes.

have any done so? not yet.

[Anonymous No.1676322]

[Anonymous No.1676330]

>>1676294
Implying Bioshock didn't have a good story.
Implying Farenheit didn't have a good story.
Implying countless other games didn't have good stories.

[Anonymous No.1676331]

>>1676294
MP1

[Anonymous No.1676335]

There are plenty of good video game stories; Hercules and the 12 Labors and Beowulf, for example. I suppose Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Father and Ninja Gaiden were good, if you only want to use examples whose stories were written specifically for a game. Castlevania? Maybe. Beyond Good and Evil? Probably.

Think of all the stolen story lines in Grand Theft Auto. Nearly every gangster movie is relived in side quests throughout the series.

video games = great way to tell stories

[Anonymous No.1676356]

[Anonymous No.1676406]

I would have said no unequivocally until I played Mother 3.

It's very rare for it to be a good way to tell a story. I think Mother 3 worked so well because the whole thing was based on a childhood feeling (that worked for those my age as nostalgia) so a childish medium amplified what the story was trying to do.

I've been told Mass Effect has a good story without using the medium as an amplifier in the way Mother 3 did, but have never played it.

[Anonymous No.1676416]

>no.because its a choose-your-own story.

there are books just like that point disproven

[Anonymous No.1676422]

>>1676416
man, choose your own adventure?? really?
3/10 because i'm drunk and i laughed

[Anonymous No.1676436]

OP after years and years of playing video games from E-M i have come to the conclusion that yes video games are a good story telling meduim and i say this for these reasons

I preseve video games as a movie i make happen so in this thought its like saying movies are no story telling medium. a truly good example of this thought would have to be Oblvion now this is a rather odd example for this but its like a choose your own adventure book

The next reason is if a game a has a shitty story such as lets say halo 3 then most will not play the story a skip straight to multiplayer and this has no story unless one is prewritten and directed

and lastly machinima now this is a video game as a meduim for a story what machinma is to sum up machine cinema such as using video games as mediums for storys so on and so fourth

so yes OP video games are a good medium

[Anonymous No.1676447]

>>1676436

8/10

[Anonymous No.1676457]

>>1676447
thank you

[Anonymous No.1676474]

>CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IS NOT "IN" A VIDEO GAME ANY MORE THAN THE COLOR GREY IS "IN" A STONE YOU FUCKING MORON.

who's the moron now?

[Anonymous No.1676479]

>>1676436
HALO 2 MATCHMAKING WAS THE FUCKING BEST, FROM THERE IT WENT DOWNHILL. NOT EVEN RANKS ANYMORE? THE FUCK.

[Anonymous No.1676493]

>HALO 2 MATCHMAKING WAS THE FUCKING BEST, FROM THERE IT WENT DOWNHILL. NOT EVEN RANKS ANYMORE? THE FUCK.

>if a game a has a shitty story such as lets say halo 3 then most will not play the story a skip straight to multiplayer and this has no story unless one is prewritten and directed

point proven tyvm

[Anonymous No.1676512]

>>1676493

wut?

[Anonymous No.1676566]

[Anonymous No.1676568]

>>1676493
BUT I PLAYED HALO 1 FIRST, WITHOUT ANY ONLINE GAMEPLAY.

WHAT NOW.

[Anonymous No.1676622]

[Anonymous No.1676751]

[Anonymous No.1676841]

[Anonymous No.1677046]

[Anonymous No.1677567]

>BUT I PLAYED HALO 1 FIRST, WITHOUT ANY ONLINE GAMEPLAY.

WHAT NOW.

ive played all of them and i was making a general statement. but u sir are a idiot

[Anonymous No.1677580]

[Anonymous No.1677596]

They can be, OP.

The amount of shit-slinging in this thread is fucking sad.

[Anonymous No.1677715]

Legend of Dragoon.
Yes.

[Anonymous No.1677730]

>why is/isn't it?
Game implies ludological aspects. With heavy story based video games (interactive narrative type things) there is arguably a lack of such things. However, with games like Facade, you could think of your character as firing segments of speech at Trip, like a shoot em up has ammo fired at enemies. Point and click adventure games are also not typical of how we think of the game aspect, but are thought of as video games.

[Anonymous No.1679194]

[Anonymous No.1679211]

>>1675238
>>1675241
I'll try to address Derp's argument, regardless of the fact that he's one of the tripfags that infest /lit/ like pubic lice on a homeless man's crotch.

>"There is no such thing as a good story or a bad story. A story is a sequence of events. There is nothing intrinsically inferior or superior to sequences of events.
But there is nothing "intrinsic" about literary quality either. What good writing is and what a good story is are all prescribed sociologically. Since both are prescribed sociologically, it's meaningless to talk about either of them as intrinsic phenomena anyway. I'm not even sure who you're arguing with. Platonists maybe?

>Here is the crucial question however, which everyone is too short-sighted to ask:
Except for Derp, amirite?

>"Does quality literariness make the game itself better?"
>And the answer is a fervent NO. Just as quality literariness does not make a movie any better or a book (NOT A TEXT) any better. The only thing that quality literariness improves is A TEXT. What makes one movie better than another are the cinematic techniques of that movie, the shots, the camera placement, the mise-en-scene etc etc. What makes a painting better than another is the use of painting techniques. What makes one game better than another is its mechanics.
First of all, what does "better" mean to you in this context? If better means "improves game mechanics because game mechanics are games, derp" then you're speaking tautologous nonsense. To no one's surprise, you didn't even bother to disguise the blatant tautology pivotal to your argument (literally pivotal since your argument's circular):
>What makes one game better than another is its mechanics.

[Anonymous No.1679214]

Continuing from >>1679211

In other words, you delimited a place for games being "better" and said "anything outside of the line I drew in the sand does not make a game better". So text cannot form the principle element of a game. Why? Because you've limited games to the "game mechanics" (whatever those are, but Derp's sure none of them are text) and rejected anything outside of your narrow definition of "game mechanics".

Essentially you've said "Games are purely reducible to X. Y is not X. Therefore Y has no relation to X." More simply, "X is X. Y is not X. Therefore Y is not X." Do you see the problem? If not, please bang your head against a wall until you understand how you've added nothing to anyone's understanding of the relation between games, texts, or art in general.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1679237]

>>1679211
>you're speaking tautologous nonsense
>blatant tautology pivotal to your argument
I like how all of your criticisms are all blatant tautologies of my "blatant tautologies" dipshit, putting aside the fact that all of this IS ALL TAUTOLOGOUS IF YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, THAT DOES NOT mEAN IT IS NOT ENLIGHTENING TO SOmE PEOPLE

>What good writing is and what a good story is are all prescribed sociologically
Not all "sociological prescriptions" are equal; some are better than others, some are based on faulty values and errors of reasoning. Any social prescription that is made of a "good" or "bad" story is inevitably going to be based on the ground of faulty reasoning AKA that story is good because I it appeals to me. This is not the same sort of social prescription that is made of literary quality. One text is better than another not simply because it appeals to me but because it is constructed more masterfully and more conducive to maximal human flourishing.

>it's meaningless to talk about either of them as intrinsic phenomena anyway
IT'S NONSENSICAL, YOU FUCKWIT. NOT mEANINGLESS. I'm getting a lot of meaning from it, so are other people, maybe not you because you've got a peanut brain; not my fucking fault.

>what does "better" mean to you in this context?
more conducive to maximal human flourishing, ultimately. But I don't even need to extend my argument that far, I simply need to say that any token of its type will be superior to any other token in that type insofar as it is constituted by properties which are considered superior for its type. And what determines what these superior properties are is DERP A DERP SOCIAL PRESCRIPTIONS, BUT GEE WHIZ I GUESS WE CAN'T SAY ONE SOCIAL PRESCRIPTION IS BETTER THAN ANOTHER BECAUSE WE'RE SPINELESS, CLUELESS FUCKING RETARDS, RIGHT?

1/2

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1679238]

>>1679237

>you delimited a place for games being "better"
What the fuck does that even? Is that retard-speak for saying what makes one game better than another?

>said "anything outside of the line I drew in the sand does not make a game better"
I like how you quoted yourself because that has nothing to do with anything I've said, shithead

>So text cannot form the principle element of a game. Why? Because you've limited games to the "game mechanics"
a) WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT 'TEXT' WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A TEXT. TEXT CANNOT FORm THE PRINCIPAL ELEmENT OF A GAmE IN THE SAmE WAY THAT THE COLOR GREY CANNOT FORm THE PRICIPAL ELEmENT OF A FUCKING ROCK, YOU mORON.
B) NO SHIT, I'VE LImITED GAmES TO WHAT THEY'RE ABOUT, WOW. I GUESS mAYBE IF I "LImITED" CARPENTRY TO WOOD YOU'D BUST mY FUCKING BALLS AS WELL DIPSHIT. THAT IS HOW DEFINITIONS ARE CONSTRUCTED, YOU ASSHOLE, LImITATIONS THAT ARE EITHER CONTRACTED OR EXTENDED.

>Essentially you've said
Where "essentially" means "according my retarded reading which cannot directly quote because I have to make up strawmen positions to argue against".

Try again, you stupid fucking chimp.

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1679279]

here is a simple, fun analogy:

Judging a game with a good story to be better than a game with a bad story is about as mistaken a methodology of critical evaluation as judging a plastic violin made by a 12 year-old to be better than a Stradivarius made by a career violin-maker because the former violin happens to have a hello-kitty paintjob, and you happen to love hello-kitty.

[Anonymous No.1679310]

>>1679279
So, I am to assume that you believe a good story to be a fitting analog to a paint job on a musical intrument?

[Anonymous No.1679313]

>>1679279
So you're arguing that story isn't important, with videogames, only gameplay?

That seems like something that's rooted entirely in personal preference, a matter of opinion.

Can football be used to tell a story? Sure it can, but its hardly as versatile a medium of storytelling as video games.

The narrative of a game, its story, is a factor in how that game is going to be judged; as much as you'd like to insist otherwise. Granted, there are examples of games where the story is relatively unimportant, and the gameplay is what makes them interesting... but then, the opposite is also true.

[Anonymous No.1679314]

>>1679310
He's incapable of empathy, and therefore has no frame of reference.

[Anonymous No.1679315]

text forms the principal element of all games

[Anonymous No.1679316]

>>1679315

video games, that is

[Anonymous No.1679318]

D&E see pic

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1679359]

>>1679313
>So you're arguing that story isn't important, with videogames, only gameplay?
No, believe it or not I'm arguing only what I said I was fucking arguing

see>>1675238
>>1675241

Also, lol, I love how everyone jumps on the toy example I dumb down for the shallow-pates. Not that anyone has been capable of addressing that either.

>>1679316
>text forms the principal element of all games
No, dipshit, in the same way that text does not form the principal element of all books (ELECTRONIC OR ORGANIC THAT IS, DERRRP)

[Anonymous No.1679366]

>>1679359
Sound and Fury

[Anonymous No.1679633]

Is Derp&Erpy a parody tripfag? If not, then did you mean for most of your response to be ad hominem? Whatever the case, I laughed the whole way through it.

>I like how all of your criticisms are all blatant tautologies of my "blatant tautologies" dipshit, putting aside the fact that all of this IS ALL TAUTOLOGOUS IF YOU KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, THAT DOES NOT mEAN IT IS NOT ENLIGHTENING TO SOmE PEOPLE
I would be happy to address the circularity you think my own arguments have if you provided any evidence that they were, in fact, circular. As it is now, I'm left wondering whether you were typing with one or both ass cheeks.

Circular arguments elucidate nothing new by definition, so no one's learning anything. It's just bald assertion, and you can hide that assertion with as many words as you like, but it's just assertion without evidence.

>One text is better than another not simply because it appeals to me but because it is constructed more masterfully and more conducive to maximal human flourishing.
Both are sociological phenomena, though, and neither inherently better or worse as such. Also, do you have any evidence for such conducivity to maximal human flourishing, or are you justifying something you do to entertain yourself as something useful in the real world? There's nothing wrong with entertainment, but conflating good things with pleasurable things may be a bad habit unless you're a hedonist or have some evidence to back up these claims.

[Anonymous No.1679651]

Continuing from >>1679633
>IT'S NONSENSICAL, YOU FUCKWIT. NOT mEANINGLESS. I'm getting a lot of meaning from it, so are other people, maybe not you because you've got a peanut brain; not my fucking fault.
This was my favorite fallacy sandwich: word quibbling as if refutation followed by an ad hominem, all backed up by an argument from popularity. Consulting the OED, we find that nonsense means "spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense". Nonsense, or "[having] no meaning", is equivalent to being meaningless, or can you not read? I'm starting to suspect the latter since you seem to be having trouble with very simple words.

>more conducive to maximal human flourishing, ultimately. But I don't even need to extend my argument that far, I simply need to say that any token of its type will be superior to any other token in that type insofar as it is constituted by properties which are considered superior for its type.
In other words, better things are better so long as they increase one's wisdom in some way. Do you have any way to quantify that, or will you justify it with the fuzzy feelings you get when finishing a book? I hope the former for your own sake, but I'm not holding my breath. Once again, there's nothing wrong with reading for pleasure, but you shouldn't turn it into a pseudo-mystical experience that gives off unquantifiable gobbledygook.

[Anonymous No.1679661]

Continuing from >>1679651
>And what determines what these superior properties are is DERP A DERP SOCIAL PRESCRIPTIONS, BUT GEE WHIZ I GUESS WE CAN'T SAY ONE SOCIAL PRESCRIPTION IS BETTER THAN ANOTHER BECAUSE WE'RE SPINELESS, CLUELESS FUCKING RETARDS, RIGHT?
It's not so much whether it's better or worse, but whether we have a way to quantify "human flourishing" from books to see if it improves humans as a whole (which you seem to be implying). If you can't provide evidence for such human flourishing and the benefits of it other than CAP-LOCK CRUISE CONTROL yammering, then I'm afraid you're just asserting factless opinions.

And all of this is peripheral to the body of the argument. Honestly I still have no idea who or what you were arguing against with that mess. Idealism? Monadism?

>What the fuck does that even? Is that retard-speak for saying what makes one game better than another?
IDUNNO, DERP

>I like how you quoted yourself because that has nothing to do with anything I've said, shithead
I was saying your qualifications are completely arbitrary and made up by you based on your narrow definitions on what a "game" can and should be. I used lines in the sand as an analogy. Whether you agree the analogy is proper or not depends entirely on how you view my points beforehand. The analogy won't make sense unless you realize your errors.

[Anonymous No.1679679]

Continuing from >>1679661

>a) WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT 'TEXT' WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A TEXT. TEXT CANNOT FORm THE PRINCIPAL ELEmENT OF A GAmE IN THE SAmE WAY THAT THE COLOR GREY CANNOT FORm THE PRICIPAL ELEmENT OF A FUCKING ROCK, YOU mORON.
And the simple assertion once again, coupled with yet another analogy.

>B) NO SHIT, I'VE LImITED GAmES TO WHAT THEY'RE ABOUT, WOW. I GUESS mAYBE IF I "LImITED" CARPENTRY TO WOOD YOU'D BUST mY FUCKING BALLS AS WELL DIPSHIT. THAT IS HOW DEFINITIONS ARE CONSTRUCTED, YOU ASSHOLE, LImITATIONS THAT ARE EITHER CONTRACTED OR EXTENDED.
To what you think they're about. There's a difference between definitional limitation and ideological rigidity. For example, a Christian cannot worship Bishamonten and disbelieve in Yahweh/Jesus by definition, but some Christians don't believe Catholics belong to the group denoted by "Christians" at all. In your case, the separation between game mechanics/game and text are the latter rather than the former. If you can show how the meaning of the word "game" precludes text from being a "game mechanic" then that would certainly be evidence in your favor.

>Where "essentially" means "according my retarded reading which cannot directly quote because I have to make up strawmen positions to argue against".
So what part with the summation do you disagree with? It's easier to argue when I know what specific point you're arguing against. I'll write it again so you don't even have to scroll: "Games are purely reducible to X. Y is not X. Therefore Y has no relation to X." Less ambiguously stated: "Games are purely reducible to game mechanics. Text is not a game mechanic. Therefore the text has no relation to the game proper." From that, the bad argument would conclude that improving text doesn't make a game better since the game is reducible only to game mechanics of which text is not one.

[Anonymous No.1679685]

Since games=x the same way 4=2+2 because they're purely reducible to their constituents, we can state further that "X is X. Y is not X. Therefore Y is not X." The only disagreement might be with that last reduction, but even the original argument is only rephrasing the second premise as if the person arguing finally reached gnosis through his linguistic self-bewitchery. Each phrase ("is not" and "has no relation to") is separating subject X from subject Y, so they mean the same thing in this context.

As for your analogy at >>1679279
All you do is restate what you've already said which is fine for others who might not have gotten it, but analogies are useful only for illustrative purposes and useless elsewise, especially in rigorous argumentation. My rule, though, is that if your opponent defaults to "Hello Kitty" analogies, you know he's already lost.

Also, what do you have against the letter "m"?

[Anonymous No.1679691]

>>1679359

>No, dipshit, in the same way that text does not form the principal element of all books (ELECTRONIC OR ORGANIC THAT IS, DERRRP)

I suspect this was a reference to programming, but if it wasn't you got trolled hard

programming text is how all games come into being

principal element isn't actually a technical term, so you would be arguing, really, about what someone's opinion of what a principal element is, and, lets face it D&E, it makes you a moron for even attempting to do such a thing

[Anonymous No.1679801]

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1679820]

>Circular arguments elucidate nothing new by definition, so no one's learning anything. It's just bald assertion, and you can hide that assertion with as many words as you like, but it's just assertion without evidence.
I'm glad none of this applies to anything I've said, I'm also sad you don't know what the fuck coherence is in the first place.

>and neither inherently better or worse as such
There you go with those stupid tautologies, NOTHING IS INHERENTLY ANYTHING

>do you have any evidence for such conducivity to maximal human flourishing
You are free to give me any example and I will demonstrate to you whether or not it contributes to maximal human flourishing

>are you justifying something you do to entertain yourself as something useful in the real world? There's nothing wrong with entertainment, but conflating good things with pleasurable things may be a bad habit unless you're a hedonist or have some evidence to back up these claims.
Mouth-farting, I don't give a shit about any of this, sorry.

1

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1679824]

>word quibbling as if refutation
Where word quibbling is pointing out how what you said is mistaken, yes, word quibbling
>followed by an ad hominem
No, followed by telling you you are a fucking retard, although this is not what makes you wrong

>Consulting the OED, we find that nonsense means "spoken or written words that have no meaning or make no sense". Nonsense, or "[having] no meaning", is equivalent to being meaningless, or can you not read?
Yes, I can, and I can do more than just read selectively like you, you myopic fuckwit. You seem to have forgot the "MAKE NO SENSE", you know, HAVING NO SENSE? something that is totally different to having NO MEANING

>In other words, better things are better so long as they increase one's wisdom in some way
NO YOU FUCKING MORON, BECAUSE NO "OTHER WORDS" ARE NEEDED IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE. THE ONLY REASON YOU WOULD NEED OTHER WORDS IN THE FIRST PLACE IS IF YOU SOMEHOW COULD NOT UNDERSTAND AND DIRECTLY QUOTE WHAT I SAID, WHICH IS RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU. NOW FUCK OFF AND READ IT AGAIN.


>whether we have a way to quantify "human flourishing" from books to see if it improves humans as a whole (which you seem to be implying)
AND WE DO. DOES IT MAKE LIFE MORE WORTH LIVING? DOES MEDICINE MAKE LIFE MORE WORTH LIVING? YES AND SO DOES EVEN BETTER MEDICINE. AND SO DOES MASTERFULLY PRODUCED LITERATURE.

2

[Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ No.1679826]

>If you can't provide evidence for such human flourishing and the benefits of it
WELL, I GOT UP IN THE MORNING, HAD A GREAT GLASS OF ORANGE JUICE, PLAYED A GREAT VIDEO-GAME, READ A GREAT NOVEL. P. SURE ALL THESE MADE MY LIFE AND THE LIVES OF EVERYONE WHO VALUES SUPERIOR LITERATURE/WHATEVER BETTER, WHICH MAKES LIFE BETTER OVERALL, AND MORE SO THAN GETTING UP IN THE MORNING AND DOING SHITTY VARIATIONS OF THIS WOULD MAKE IT. WOW, JUST LIKE HOW WEAK MEDICINE DOES NOT WORK AS WELL AS STRONG MEDICINE, HOW FUCKING MYSTICAL AND TOTALLY UNEXPLAINABLE IN ENTIRELY NATURALISTIC TERMS.

>Honestly I still have no idea who or what you were arguing against with that mess
THEN WHY ARE YOU EVEN POSTING IN THIS THREAD IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM ARGUING

>So what part with the summation do you disagree with?
ALL OF IT, YOU ARE POSTING FUCKING TEXTUAL DIARRHOEA

>principal element isn't actually a technical term, so you would be arguing, really, about what someone's opinion of what a principal element is, and, lets face it D&E, it makes you a moron for even attempting to do such a thing
seriously, none of that shit has anything to do with anything I've said. Dickhead isn't actually a technical term but it'll do for your moronic ass.

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[Anonymous No.1680923]

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[Anonymous No.1680955]

i have never seen someone squirt out so much diarrhea while making an argument that is so obviously wrong
is it ironic that at the end he accuses someone else of posting textual diarrhea

oh and d&e you are practically pissing from your asshole

and by asshole i mean your mouth

and by mouth i mean your keyboard

everything you said is wrong because video games are a good way to communicate stories

it is not relevant that the stories may be bad or good

[Anonymous No.1680968]

[Anonymous No.1680978]

[Brownbear !Wfn4kkpLag!!fEGZw8wphGR No.1681134]

i think this thread really went places