Lucifer & God

[Anonymous No.16706572]

Literally tell me what Lucifer even wants. God just wants you to be a good little lamb and sing lullabies. I get that. What does Satan want? Anarchy? Glory? A stable society? Degeneracy? Milton's Lucifer is fanfic, so he's of no consequence. Reading the Bible, God is all good things, like love, peace, tranquility, and Satan is all bad things like desire, fear, and whatever else. It's a very black and white POV that leaves no room for any sort of characterization. Basically God's perfect Utopia is being like a nigger or snownigger, walking around, eating, shitting, sleeping, but also praising Him, while also creating more people to praise Him. But it took a powerful Med Empire focused on Glory, Expansion, Force and Knowledge for His message to be spread.

I'm just really confused, is all. Based Christianity is a good book for a peaceful existence, if everyone followed it. A "good" life, so to speak. But it's devoid of any meaning. Suppose we followed it to a T, in a couple of years life would be an incredibly mundane, stagnant cycle of repetition. But at the same time I cannot go all
>LMAO Satan Rulz
if he has no actual tenents and codes. It seems that no matter how you cut it, there's no middle ground to follow for a purposeful life. One that gives both the glory/knowledge-seeker and the average joe the same chances. Either you're a Hedonist, or you should just be content with life being nothing more than a reproduction cycle. What about the man who wants to go to the stars? What about the man who wants to understand the world around him? Sure, God himself doesn't forbid that. But it takes Pride to follow your dreams, since you're expecting material rewards, which is a Sin; the deadliest at that. And what about the Warrior? The Emperor? What about the men who make the hard choices for the world to keep turning? What about the ends and the means? How can you live based on a dichotomy such as that? What are we, characters in a Mr. A comic book?

[Anonymous No.16706619]

>But it took a powerful Med Empire focused on Glory, Expansion, Force and Knowledge for His message to be spread.
this pattern occurs over and over in the bible; God brings good out of man's evil
>tell me what Lucifer even wants
look around, what does man want? does anyone even know, in civilizational terms? just seems like growth and expansion for the sake of it. all this is prefigured throughout the entire bible. the tower of babylon is exemplar. man only builds the anti-creation.

it's not as simple as 'everyone just sits around' vs 'accelerate the shoveling of human souls into the warp engine'. man is rebellious by nature yet God saved him, did not destroy and recreate a perfectly obedient race. all of man's ill will is accounted for in God's plan, and it shall be brought to bear fruit, though we should repent for having done things the hard way and not acting out of love

[Anonymous No.16706624]

>>16706572
Don't know christianity. In Judaism Satan is the judge of the souls

[Anonymous No.16706965]

>>16706619
>this pattern occurs over and over in the bible; God brings good out of man's evil
Then why did He wait so long? There were other Empires before. Why did he go to the Romans instead of the forrest niggers who were closer to His view of a good life? Why did He not lead by example, so to speak?
>look around, what does man want?
Different people want different things, but the basic average joe just wants to eat, sleep, fuck and be safe. Which pretty much is God's moral life. Now, if you're going to go to vices, then others want to fuck everything, others want money, and so on. Very, very few are guilty of wanting Glory and to change the world, desiring true Power and having the Pride to go aong with it.
>does anyone even know, in civilizational terms?
Needs and wants don't really change, just their expressions.
>just seems like growth and expansion for the sake of it. all this is prefigured throughout the entire bible. the tower of babylon is exemplar. man only builds the anti-creation.
I don't think that's a good example. It's just another case of black and white thinking. Either you build something to fuck up God like Nimrod, or you just live like cattle. Expansion for its own sake, in the sense of acquiring new knowledge about the world, getting bigger, better, stronger, smarter, more beautiful, etc, is at the very end the only thing that exists. I suppose exploration and domination are the very "basic" definitions of it.
>it's not as simple as 'everyone just sits around' vs 'accelerate the shoveling of human souls into the warp engine'. man is rebellious by nature yet God saved him, did not destroy and recreate a perfectly obedient race. all of man's ill will is accounted for in God's plan, and it shall be brought to bear fruit, though we should repent for having done things the hard way and not acting out of love
Then we all just exist simply to pass through God's shit-test of EITHER eing the perfect obedient niggersheep he wants that live to shit and fuck and procreate to praise Him, or we break off and do what we did for thousands of eyars before He came around, and after, at which point we're sent to Hell. It doesn't really come off as anything good to me.

Again, I'm not seeing any answers. You're dividing the world in two. The good and the pious who just do God's Will, and the "rest". But that doesn't work because God's Will forbids most aspects of human expression, even if they're not rooted in base "Sins". The serial killer is treated the same as the eugenicist and as the general stuck in war.
>>16706624
Isn't that supposed to be Saint Peter?

[Anonymous No.16706971]

>>16706572
Atomization of the individual among other things

[Anonymous No.16706981]

>>16706965
>Isn't that supposed to be Saint Peter?
Speaking of fanfic

[Anonymous No.16707120]

>>16706965
Your disagreement is entirely dependent on your disbelief in God. Humans did not live for thousands of years before God's plan, we have always been part of it from the outset, and been in contact with him. Belief in god is the belief that the rules of the world were made by him. To say that a man that follows god is cattle because he lives a pious life that allows him to be fruitful and multiply is like saying a tiger is a coward because it hides in the shadows and attacks from behind. All creatures have their own nature, a nature that has a place suited to it, and a nature that can be called to greatness or failure. By rejecting your nature and wallowing in your vices you stunt your own growth. Pride will make you seem larger than you are, but it is merely a shackle weighing you down.

[Anonymous No.16707153]

>>16706572
You and I and God and Lucifer are all one and the same. All beings are just a part of the cosmic time spiral of souls, with God in the middle. Lucifer is our friend and our enemy. Friendship is Lucifer’s tool to challenge us and God is there to make sure these challenges uplift and better us rather than tear us down.

[Anonymous No.16707246]

>>16706965
>Why did he go to the Romans
God has been with us from the beginning.
why he sent his Son at the time of the roman empire is not about making clear his will to those most sympathetic to it, if anything it'd be closer to the opposite. I don't think the "when"s of his plan can be rationalized by us who don't have a grasp of eternity
>It's just another case of black and white thinking
you're right, I phrased it badly - but it is certainly man's desire to build his safety, his knowledge, etc. apart from God, and not look to him for it
God ordains a domination and exploration of a certain sort in the beginning, I don't mean for the dichotomy to be summoning the Tower vs. all day grazing - but that God desires an expansion of something: of the good news, of love, of the church. God provides for the rest
>very few are guilty of wanting Glory and to change the world, desiring true Power and having the Pride to go aong with it.
few people might have that raw nietzschean will, but even pride (uncapitalized) is contrary to God's will, that's just a matter of degree
>The serial killer is treated the same as the eugenicist and as the general stuck in war
that's not the case, large portions of the new testament are dedicated to anti-legalism

[Anonymous No.16707388]

>>16706572
Firstly you have no idea if my possessed by demons, which is why you should consult a priest about all theological matters instead of people on the internet.
Secondly Christianity is not dualistic, demons (like satan) are personages and they conspire individually. There is no essence of evil fighting God, God already won by showing humanity that death and sin are escapable, so all that's left is to see whether you're going be a retard and fall for the personages trying to prevent you from salvation. The battleground for spiritual warfare is at the individual level in Christianity, and your part to play is determined by how you use your free will.
Thirdly your post is borderline unintelligible.

[Anonymous No.16708012]

Why do you all believe god. Threw out the bible God claims to be the personification of good, but is responsible for multiple genocides both indirectly in his followers and threw direct action. The entire foundation of your belief is that when god says something it is true, contradictions, hypocrisy, nonsense and outdated morality, all within the text themselves.

Isn't it more likely god is a amoral or evil being tricking you into following them threw deception, then a good being who dose/approves /sanctifies /advises awful things.

Hell, god claims to be omnipotent and omniscient yet Satan is still able to influence the lives of mortals. This means god is not able to stop Satan and is thus not omnipotent, Satan is able to trick/sneak past god at witch point god is not omniscient, god allows Satan make people evil and the world worse, or Satan doesn't exist and is just a convenient scapegoat to poorly justify evil.

[Anonymous No.16708019]

>>16708012
See >>16707388

[Jesus No.16708258]

>>16706572
tldr. vatican wants you to be prisoner of these idiotic paradigms.

[Anonymous No.16708260]

>>16708019
Free will is incompatible with an omniscient god. If the universe can be perfectly known, this means the universe can not be chaotic or branched, and thus must be linear and deterministic.

Put more simply, god knows everything, he knows if you will pass or fail, he has known this since the beginning of his existance. Unless you believe no one can fail his test, this meens he has always known who would fail, yet he created the world as it is, made humans the way they are, allowed history to unfold as it did, allowed you to be born when, where and to who you where born to. Then he choose your test.

Every second of this was known, every second was under his control. Yet nothing was done or changed.

There are people out there who fail gods test, not because of free will, but because that is gods plan. I'd hardly call that fair or just.

[Anonymous No.16708467]

>>16706572
Lucifer is God in disguise

[Anonymous No.16708850]

>>16707120
So we've always been part of it, yet he chose to show Himself at some random point in time? Sure, fair enough, whatever. But this
>Belief in god is the belief that the rules of the world were made by him. To say that a man that follows god is cattle because he lives a pious life that allows him to be fruitful and multiply is like saying a tiger is a coward because it hides in the shadows and attacks from behind.
is bollocks. The tiger's nature is to kill and live. I'm asking you about the meaning of life in God's terms. If everyone was Pious and thus God's "Perfect Man", then nothing would be made. We wouldn't have computers or spaceships. We'd be stagnated, repeatign the same cycles.
>All creatures have their own nature, a nature that has a place suited to it, and a nature that can be called to greatness or failure. By rejecting your nature and wallowing in your vices you stunt your own growth.
But by this logic it's in my nature as a man to kill, compete and dominate, the same as it is to eat, sleep, procreate, etc. God wants me to shun the negative aspects of my nature, yet you put it as me not embracing my "true" nature and perverting it.
>Pride will make you seem larger than you are, but it is merely a shackle weighing you down.
Nonsense. Without Pride and Ego nothing would be made. The forerunners, the Forward Men are always motivated by selfish reasons. A desire to make their nation strong, to explore new places, to uncover the mysteries of the world. All begin with selfishness.
>>16707153
Sure, but you need a tangible endgame past the trials. You need a reason.
>>16707246
>God has been with us from the beginning.
>why he sent his Son at the time of the roman empire is not about making clear his will to those most sympathetic to it, if anything it'd be closer to the opposite. I don't think the "when"s of his plan can be rationalized by us who don't have a grasp of eternity
My theory is that He was sent so that the Message could be spread since the Empire was far-reaching. But it can also be logically explained that the Message was spread simply because of the time and place.
>but that God desires an expansion of something: of the good news, of love, of the church. God provides for the rest
I don't see Him providing. If God is just and merciful, why are niglets dying of hunger? If he wants me to prove my worth by forsaking everything my material body is tied to (self, nation, race, culture, being), what is the point of anything? We'll just all become globohomo hippies and that'll be it.
>few people might have that raw nietzschean will, but even pride (uncapitalized) is contrary to God's will, that's just a matter of degree
Still, Pride motivates the best of the mundane.
>that's not the case, large portions of the new testament are dedicated to anti-legalism
Specifics?
>>16707388
All you're saying is
>believe and don't intrude
>>16708467
QRD?

[Anonymous No.16709866]

Bump.

[Anonymous No.16709906]

Is it bad to want to be God(if not “better) rather than just follow him.
Like, I admire my dad. And I’m thankful to him. But, at the least, I want to be like him. He’s a simple man, on that side I would like to be better.
I’m not prideful but my objective in live is to grasp greatness once in my life and then go be some random in some small town. Is that a sin?

[Anonymous No.16709936]

>>16709906
t. Teen who hasn't lived a tough life

[Anonymous No.16709949]

>>16708850
wrt: Lucifer is God in disguise, read Chesterton's 'The Man who was Thursday'

[Anonymous No.16709955]

>>16706572
In Christianity angels are beings of intellect and will, however they have perfect knowledge and are unconstrained by time. Because of this, when an angel reaches a decision or changes their will it's essentially irrevocable.

Traditionally the sin of Lucifer was pride- he hated man and refused to accept that God could allow beings of both spirit and flesh to attain salvation. It's speculated he also refused to bow to God Incarnate, which is to say Jesus.

Many angels followed Satan. If Apocryphal texts such as the book of Enoch are taken into account, lusts for flesh and power were also driving factors in causing some angels to rebel and fall. In any case, as Satan and the angels made their decisions outside of time they were ultimately irrevocable. They would never change their minds as there is no new information for them to receive. Angels don't undergo character development as they are outside time.

Right now, Satan is actually roaming the Earth like a hungry lion according to the New Testament. He wants nothing except to tempt people out of their salvation and away from God, due to his hate for mankind and spite towards God. His ultimate pride and contempt towards mankind was the cause of his downfall. The New Testament also heavily suggests that the world is under Satan's dominion (how could he tempt Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world if they were not his to give?).

[Anonymous No.16709968]

>>16706572
By the way, your understanding of Christianity is fundameny flawed. God doesn't want "a good little lamb" who "sings lullabies", and the idea that heaven is somehow boring is if nothing else a success for Satan. We believe in the resurrection of the body, a new, perfected world, and the spirit of romance and adventure comes from God. If any realm of the afterlife is boring and repetitive I imagine it would be hell.

[Anonymous No.16709988]

>>16709906
I think it's fairly normal for sensitive individuals to undergo that at some point, but simplicity is the mark of wisdom.

When I was 20 and came to the Church, I wanted to be a great Bishop or even Pope, a great Theologian and Philosopher, I wanted to reunite the Catholic and Orthodox churches, become martyred and posthumously declared a Doctor of the Church.

When I was 23, realised I didn't want to be a priest and was trying my hand at writing, I wanted to be a great spiritual writer on the level of Dostoevsky, I wanted to win the Nobel prize, I wanted to be taught in schools and have statues erected in my honour as a great icon of culture on the level of Goethe.

Now I'm 25 I just want to be healthy, a good man, and eventually a good husband. A moral life lived in obscurity and humility is far better than a great one spent in turmoil. Even now if I read Aristotle, Augustine or Aquinas I think to myself-- what's the point of all this philosophy and theology if I then can't keep it in my pants and go to hell? Meanwhile there are dumb peasants toiling in third - world farms whose simple, unquestioning faith will win them salvation. I think that's partly why Aquinas declared all his masterpieces "straw" after having a religious vision, and died 3 months later.

[Anonymous No.16709989]

>>16709955
>>16709968
>>16709988

I'm by no means an expert but if anyone has any sincere questions about Catholicism I will be happy to answer.

[Anonymous No.16710034]

>>16709968
How can God give us the “spirit of adventure” if adventure inevitably leads to Sin? Through war, conflict of interests and anything that “adventure” entails. You don’t define what “adventure” is, and here >>16709988 you basically say what I’m saying. That it’s “better” to be some nigger in a strawhut who praises Jesus, than try and do something impactful. Because to try and do something will lead to Sin and inevitably Hell. So we should all just give up, stop history and die on this rock, creating a globohomo society that consists of eating, shitting, sleeping and living purely to praise God and procreate so that the next generation will do the same. That is the Utopia according to the Christian doctrine. No strife, no cause for any negativity, just passive tranquility.
>>16709949
Never heard of it. I’ll google it and see.

I’m off to bed now. I’ll see if the thread is up in the morning.

[Anonymous No.16710058]

>>16706572
the way things work is as above so below. the ultimate god is perfect but his emanation, the demiurge (OT god) is retarted. but the demiurge also has his retarted god kid, satan. so it goes

God (for real)
God: our creator, evil
Satan: creator of even more evil (maybe has his own even worse version of our reality)

[Anonymous No.16710059]

>>16710034
Tranquility does not equal passivity, nor does adventure equal sin. You've said you're going to bed and I doubt the thread will be up when you return, so there's not really possibility of a conversation here. But if you see this my best advice to you would be to read CS Lewis' Mere Christianity and some Chesterton (Everlasting Man, Orthodoxy). Lewis' work isn't perfect but it'll certainly reframe your ideas around heaven being boring. A sin isn't the opposite of a virtue, it's the excess or deficit of a virtue.

[Anonymous No.16710152]

>>16706572
you sound like an incel

[Anonymous No.16710162]

>>16706572
>christianity is dualistic
No fucking retard, Christianity is founded on the belief that evil is the absence of good, not a diametrically opposed metaphysical force. Satan is a worm compared to God, where do you get this idea there's a stalemate between good and evil?

[Anonymous No.16710251]

>>16706572
Satan wants to prove that you are just as bad as him. his motivation is jealousy, because Allah orders the angels to bow to Adam.

[Anonymous No.16711325]

>>16706572
Last page bump. Maybe OP’ll come back.