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/lit/ - Literature

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16702918 No.16702918 [Reply] [Original]

Can someone please tell me if this is a meme or not? There have been a lot of Nick Land threads lately but I literally can't understand what people are saying in them, everyones accusing everyone else of being accfag. Just tell me if it's a meme. I don't want to ask for this book for Christmas if it's garbage

>> No.16702932

Meme book

>> No.16702939

>>16702918
You're talking about Land on /lit/ you're only goingo to get people sayig 'into the trash it goes' or 'accfag again', very little of actual conversaton. I'd sugest you take it somewhere else or make up our mind by yourself with a pdf, faggot.

>> No.16702954

>>16702918
Rule of thumbs: if you see a book talked a lot around here, try to find if he’s only talked a lot around here or if it is esteemed elsewhere. I got memed into reading Stirner and I believe that Nick Land is also a meme.

>> No.16702956

>>16702954
Nick Land is not talked about on /lit/, have you not seen the threads?

>> No.16702958

>5 unique IDs for 6 posts (with one reply)
wow how is that retard gonna cope this time?

>> No.16702963

>>16702954
the german ideology is in large part marx's critique of stirner, so he's less of a meme than land. plus he does fun hegelian anarchism :)

>> No.16702978
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16702978

>>16702918
There's some good essays there. You need to learn about Deleuze & Guattari first (Desiring-Production, Desiring-Machines, BwO, Immanence, Spinozism, the Kantian theatre, Difference and Repetition, etc).

>> No.16702989

>>16702918
I'm sorry, I know this is barely related but I will take whatever chance I can get to post this.

>> No.16702999
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16702999

Speaking of Land, what did he mean by this?

>> No.16702998
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16702998

>kaliacc

>> No.16703010
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16703010

>>16702999
>those d*gits
Land is blogging again!

>> No.16703017

The truth is anon its 99% a meme. Land's writings during this period were almost entirely fuelled by amphetamines and ecstasy. He does seem to have a solid understanding of his supposed influences but he doesn't really build on them in any useful way. For the most part, he just reiterates their ideas in overly verbose language. Do you want to know what Landian Accelerationism actually is? I can summarize it for you, it's essentially the idea that we should de-regulate the free market so that trends like workplace automation and the de-centralization of IT can occur at an increasingly faster pace, whereby consumer wants liberate the mechanisms of Capital and they become self-sufficient, kind of like an artificial ecosystem. For Land, this would constitute a kind of AI succession, which he supports solely for the reason that he is a nihilist and indifferent towards humanity and humanism. Hope that answers your question.

>> No.16703026

>>16702939
do you have a link to the pdf?

>> No.16703041

>>16703010
I wonder if Wagner will pop up on the substack lol

>> No.16703049

>>16703026
https://archive.org/details/fangednoumena/page/n261/mode/2up
>>16703017
pretty much sums it up, OP. if you want a clear non drug fuled Land with idea development read Crypto-Current.

>> No.16703051

>>16702999
I haven't read him yet but probably cultural acceleration to the conditions of the nietzschean last man

>> No.16703055

>>16703049
>read Crypto-Current.
every thread

>> No.16703074

>>16702999
nothing

>> No.16703182

>>16703055
is it better than Fanged Noumena?

>> No.16703217

>>16703182
I's an actual development and aplication of his ideas. Fanged Noumena is, as >>16703017 says, just a reiteration and 'aplication' of ideas in a schizo way.

>> No.16703224

>>16702918
before you can ask if this is a meme you have to ask if deleuze and guattari are a meme

>> No.16703229

>>16703217
At least he says some interesting shit in Fanged Noumena. CC is basically him trying to be an economist but the whole time he's saying "look I'm still esoteric because I continue to write like I'm on meth"

>> No.16703248

>>16703229
No he doesen't. Faged Noumena is worthless larp, CC is an aplication of Deleuze/Kant. An economic perspective doesen't give you anything while reading it, if you read it with the Deleuze/Kant perspective you'll find actual development. It's not very iteresting, but it does a lot more than Fanged Noumena, atleast in a serious academic way.

>> No.16703255

>>16702918
First third or so of the book is genuinely serious essays, then Land starts sliding into insanity, goes batshit insane for a good chunk, then it sort of restabilises for the last few essays towards the end. So yeah, kinda meme, but mostly not. Make of it what you will.

>> No.16703262

>>16703248
>An economic perspective doesen't give you anything while reading it
Did you read it?
>Economies are assembled from flows. Unsurprisingly, therefore, their native codes are currencies, or current-signs. As societies mobilize matter-energy resource streams, their monetary conventions register these flows by inversion, and strict reciprocity. Hole-flow in electronics is a close analog. Every non-barter commodity exchange, or non-financial transaction, catalyzes a flow, by pricing it. The ‘real economy’ is thus automatically captured, by a monetary code, even when – as is overwhelmingly typical – this quantification through signs is never aggregated.

>> No.16703287

>>16703262
Yes. If you read that paragraph with anything but Deleuze in mind you won't get anything out of it. He's explicitly taking the mechanism of 'flows' from Deleuze: https://deleuze.cla.purdue.edu/seminars/anti-oedipus-i/lecture-01

>> No.16703307

>>16703287
lol yes I've read Deleuze, do you really think the word "flows" means he isn't talking about economics?

>> No.16703325

>>16703307
He does use it to talk about the economy, but if you see the word in an economical persective then you lose the meaning of the word. Deleuze made use of various concepts such as 'flows' (taken from other spaces) and resignified them or used them in such a way that he apropriated them. Reducing the topic to economy would just take out a bunch of value from what he's trying to say. It's denoting more than what an economist could say.

>> No.16703351

>>16703325
>Deleuze made use of various concepts such as 'flows'
and yet curiously Deleuze says they are deterritorialized by means of markets, i.e. flows drive economics. Nick named the blog as a specific reference to cryptocurrency, it is not controversial in the slightest to suggest Nick Land is experimenting with economic theory here lol. but again, he is using his meth writing style so I can see why you were thrown off

>> No.16703370

>>16703351
Yes, they do speak of economy as I stated before. But they are not exerimenting with economic theory. They are applying philosophical notions to mechanism that are found on the market, thus they are seeing it in a completley differet perspective than that of an economist, again, adding elements to it. He named the blog as a specific reference to cryptocurrency to state the practical aplication of Kantian critique to reality, more than as a reference to economic theory. Not really meth writing style, more like a shitty Deleuze.

>> No.16703374

>>16703351
>>16703370
And flows are deterritoralized by many means, not only by means of markets, that would be a reduction of the concept.

>> No.16703382

>>16703370
Crypto Currents doesn't read like Deleuze though lol idk how much of this stuff you have actually read but it's pretty obvious what Nick's agenda was when he was writing it. If you're only point is "this isn't what other economists have said" then idk what to tell you anon, welcome to the future

>> No.16703389

>>16703374
Read AO lol, there is a reason the subtitle has the word Capitalism in it
>So what is the solution? Which is the revolutionary path? Psychoa-nalysis is of little help, entertaining as it does the most intimate of relations with money, and recording—while refusing to recognize it—an entire system of economic-monetary dependences at the heart of the desire of every subject it treats. Psychoanalysis constitutes for its part a gigantic enterprise of absorption of surplus value. But which is the revolutionary path? Is there one?—To withdraw from the world market, as Samir Amin advises Third World countries to do, in a curious revival of the fascist "economic solution"? Or might it be to go in the opposite direction? To go still further, that is, in the movement of the market, of decoding and deterritorialization? For perhaps the flows are not yet deterritorialized enough, not decoded enough, from the viewpoint of a theory and a practice of a highly schizophrenic character

>> No.16703411

>>16703382
>>16703389
It isn't what other economists have said. Its a Deleuzian agenda (more than one related to Guattari), an explicitation of what a pragmatic kantian model would be. Nothing close to an economic model.
You can't reduce Deleuze to a subtitle. Plus you're just using the widely misinterpreted 'acc' paragraph. Yes, the flows can be deterritorialiced by means of markets, but is that the only way? No, clearly not. Deleuze was not in any way a capitalist for a reason. He searched for different ways of deterritorialization of flows. You're reducing Land, but even worst, you're reducing Deleuze.

>> No.16703419

Yes, it is a meme book, but you don't seem to realize are that meme books are unironically the greatest books ever written.

>> No.16703441

>>16703411
>It isn't what other economists have said
I know I just said that...
>Nothing close to an economic model
this is just wrong, he is explicitly tying Austrian economics to Kantian epistemology...
>Yes, the flows can be deterritorialiced by means of markets, but is that the only way? No, clearly not.
this isn't even an argument against my point. yes, in previous historical stages other means of deterritorialization were effective. that changed when we entered the body of capital
>Deleuze was not in any way a capitalist for a reason. He searched for different ways of deterritorialization of flows
okay so you haven't read AO lol good to know.

>> No.16703454

>>16703441
>thinks Deleuze was a capitalist
>thinks Land was just applying Austrian economics
>thinks Deleuze didn't serch for other means of deterritorialization in the body of capital
You need to read with secondary sources, buddy

>> No.16703467

>>16703454
>thinks Deleuze was a capitalist
Deleuze was a Marxist lol you are the only one who accused him of being a capitalist
>thinks Land was just applying Austrian economics
I said he is tying Austrian economics to Kantian epistemology, this move was heavily forshadowed by Teleoplexy and Templexity if you want to do some more reading
>thinks Deleuze didn't serch for other means of deterritorialization in the body of capital
He says several times that the only way to get out of the body of capital is through it, you need to get beyond capital before you can overcome it, and the process of going beyond capital is to push capital beyond its limit (into schizophrenia)

try quoting anything next time you are trying to sound smart lol

>> No.16703479

>>16703454
>You need to read with secondary sources, buddy
what is a good secondary source on Deleuze if you dont mind me interjecting in your lovely discussion

>> No.16703491

>>16702954
people in the "art world" have read land

>>16703017
>>16703049
incorrect
"we should" isn't an /acc tenet (i dont really know what land talks about post CCRU nor is it really relevant)

>> No.16703493

>>16703467
>Deleuze was a Marxist
Deleuze followed Marx's thought, but he understood that one can not be a Marxist, it's a perspective on time deveopment.
>tying Austrian economics to Kantian epistemology
again, you're reducing one thing and extending the reach of the other. The enmphasis Land develops is over the Kantian side, not an economical one.
>you need to get beyond capital before you can overcome it
He insinuated it as one of the ways it could develop, but in no way did he believe that one necessarily needs capitalism to overcome capitalism. Deleuze knew capitalism can't go beyond its limits because of a constant movemet of axiomatization, a constant movement of 'limits'. Capitalism thus can't have limits.

>> No.16703494

>>16703479
I'm the other guy in the convo lol but rhizomes.net has some useful articles and a good glossary
http://rhizomes.net/issue5/poke/glossary.html

>> No.16703499

>>16703491
ture, 'we should' is an L/acc tenet, not a 'Landian' acc tenet.

>> No.16703503

>>16703493
>he understood that one can not be a Marxist
LOL okay well this is what Deleuze told Negri in 1990
>Félix Guattari and I have remained Marxists, in our two different ways, perhaps, but both of us. You see, we think any political philosophy must turn on the analysis of capitalism and the ways it has developed
man just read a book holy shit

>> No.16703511

>>16703493
Also capitalism is only a relative limit compared to schizophrenia, the absolute limit
>We have seen in what sense schizophrenia was the absolute limit of every society, inasmuch as it sets in motion decoded and deterritorialized flows that it restores to desiring-production, "at the bounds" of all social production. And capitalism, the relative limit of every society, inasmuch as it axiomatizes the decoded flows and reterritorializes the deterritorialized flows.

>> No.16703514

>>16703503
Yes, his denomination of what it is to be a 'marxist' is connected to a view of time development, in no way to traditional interpretation of the term 'marxist'. He interpreted the term next to the writings of Marx, not next to the writings of the so called Marxists.

>> No.16703533

>>16703049
Holy fuck accfag is busy today

>> No.16703534

>>16703511
A relative limit that can't be taken to it's limits.

>We encounter something that crumbles and we do not know what it is, it responds to no code, it flees underneath the codes; and this is even true, in this respect, for capitalism, which for a long time believed it could always secure simili-codes; this, then, is what we call the well-known power [puissance] of recuperation within capitalism—when we say recuperate we mean: each time something seems to escape capitalism, seems to pass beneath its simili-codes; it reabsorbs all this, it adds one more axiom and the machine starts up again
>and the grounding of a relation is found in something common between capitalism and the schizo: what they have totally in common, and it is perhaps a community that is never realized, that does not assume a concrete figure, it is a community of a principle that remains abstract, namely, the one like the other does not cease to filter, to emit, to intercept, to concentrate decoded and deterritorialized flows.

>> No.16703538

>>16703514
Is this your only argument?

>Land says X
>Land doesn't say X
>Here is a quote of Land saying X
>Ahh yes, but Land doesn't actually mean X he means the opposite

>Deleuze says X
>Deleuze doesn't say X
>Here is a quote of Deleuze saying X
>Ahh yes, but Delezue doesn't actually mean X he means the opposite

fuck off lmao

>> No.16703543

>>16703534
It overcomes the limit when it is pushed into schizophrenia, which is what I said and the quote you posted agrees with lmao you are so far behind you think you are ahead

>> No.16703545

>>16703491
This. Even Trump and Putin read Land.

Crypto-Current is going to be used by Elon to organize SpaceX Mars.

>> No.16703549

>>16703538
You're interpreting shit out of context by a few readings. You can place a quote and use it in any way missing the actual point of the quote because you are missing it's sense andcontext. Fuck off, nigger.

>> No.16703556

>>16702956
>not talked about on /lit/
So why don't all the accposters ever discuss him?

>> No.16703557

>>16703543
>It overcomes the limit when it is pushed into schizophrenia
it can't be pushed into schizophrenia because of the axiomatization, that's the point.

>> No.16703581

>>16703556
>17 posters
Because it's literally one guy seething because got caught samefagging again.

>> No.16703610

>>16703499
even fisher doesn't propose full on "we should" utopian schemes – those originate from srnciek et al and appeared much later most of the than the original left-aligned accelerationist thought

>> No.16703625

>>16703610
yes, that's right, the original l/acc was closer to land than the one found nowadays

>> No.16703635

>>16702918
Obviously a meme book at this point from what I saw people say, still bought it and right now waiting for it to be delivered. Don't even know if it's shit or not curiosity just go the best of me.

>> No.16703638

>>16703549
No, you are playing some weird game of No-True-Scotsman where Land can't be doing economics and Deleuze can't be a Marxist even though both of them explicitly disagree with your take
>>16703557
So you just think D&G were wrong then, that's okay, you don't have to think they were right lol
>Capitalism is continually cutting off the circulation of flows, breaking them and deferring the break, but these same flows are continually overflowing, and intersecting one another according to schizzes that turn against capitalism and slash into it. Capitalism, which is always ready to expand its interior limits, remains threatened by an exterior limit that stands a greater chance of coming to it and cleaving it from within, in proportion as the interior limits expand. That is why the lines of escape are singularly creative and positive: they constitute an investment of the social field that is no less complete, no less total than the contrary investment. The paranoiac and the schizoid investments are like two opposite poles of unconscious libidinal investment, one of which subordinates desiring-production to the formation of sovereignty and to the gregarious aggregate that results from it, while the other brings about the inverse subordination, overthrows the established power, and subjects the gregarious aggregate to the molecular multiplici-ties of the productions of desire.

>> No.16703642

>>16703556
half this thread is me and another anon arguing about Land and Deleuze though, is this poster a bot?

>> No.16703643

>accfag posts like this.
>deet di dee deetleit deet di dee read fanged noumena.
>Accfag post like dis
>Buh-Dunt Buh-duh-dundun Dah-Dunt. Read Crypto-Current.

>> No.16703653

>>16703635
>of course it's a meme
>better buy it could be best book ever
Lmao

>> No.16703655

>>16702918
for a long time he was the typical leftist continental philosopher. in the mold of the pomo bs.

the only good thing from is the DARK ENLIGHTENMENT distillation of Moldbug thought, which is recent.

>> No.16703668

>>16702999
nothing, it is pomo bullshit.

the reason continental philosophy is a joke nowadays is because pomo infiltrated it.

the only good thing from Nick Land is DARK ENLIGHTENMENT and that is not his original thought at all. lmao

>> No.16703676

>>16703655
This.

And Crypto-Current.

You should get Fanged Noumena too. It's shit but also a fun read. Which is great because it'll help you understand the Dark Enlightenment essays.

>> No.16703697

>>16699199
Holy fuck you're a retard

>> No.16703704

>>16703653
Pretty much this.

>> No.16703708

>>16703668
This. pomo is retarded tranny shit. The only good pomo is DARK ENLIGHTENMENT which isn't really pomo. It's dark pomo.

>> No.16703714

>>16703708
is there a dark pomo chart? what do I read before Crypto-Current?

>> No.16703729

>>16703714
Start with fanged noumena, it's shit but you need it to get Land's virulent deleuzianism. Then read A Thousand Plateaus. Teleoplexy will get to the Dark Enlightenment essays and then you can start Crypto-Current.

>> No.16703750

>>16703653
>>16703419
>ctrlf
>meme
>>16703653
kek what a retard

>> No.16703807

>>16702918
>everyones accusing everyone else of being accfag
Kek fuck off accfag.

>> No.16703826

>>16703807
>posts about accfag so no one can tell he's accfag
nice try accfag