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/lit/ - Literature

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16643191 No.16643191 [Reply] [Original]

thoughts about the book? i liked it because it made me think a bit deeper about education but i thought that his ideas were very hard to implement in reality. am i missing the point of his book?

>> No.16643204

>>16643191
I don't know why Paulo Freire is famous worldwide; worst brazilian export.

>> No.16643491

>>16643191
Last time I brought this book up, chuds claiming to be Brazilian, blamed the book for poor education there. What is it suggesting people implement?

>> No.16643570

In Brazil, his reputation is that of leading to teachers who don't care about teaching basic stuff like mathematics and how to read, but who care a lot about fomenting socialistic ideology.

I don't know how truthful this is, since I have never read his texts. But he seems to be very popular in "education courses" in Brazil.

>> No.16643684

>>16643191
It destroyed brazilian education, actually even worse, it destroyed brazilian intelligence

>>16643491
Socioconstrutivism (Luria, Vigotsky, Freinet, Emilia Ferreiro)
For this method there are only two objects, the alumn and the world, so all you need to do is leave the kid alone withthe object and he will spontaneously learn and create the structures by abstraction until he formed at the end an organized conception of his world merely through spontaneous experiments

But how would a kid learn grammar that way? If its by trial and error, that is, you dont give any rules, the kid goes by the combination of words he tries and little by little he would arrive at the general rules. For that to even be possible, the kid would need to have the abstraction capacity of Aristotle, the logical mathematical genius o Leibniz, and the scientific tenacity of Charles Darwin, all at the same time
Children educated by the socioconstrutivist method stay in a state of mental confusion and ineptitude, this was possibly the worst crime perpetrated in brazilian soil
Its something deliberatly made to create marxist useful idiots later to dominate the target countries, no one in china or russia is stupid enough to believe this bullshit method

>> No.16643700

>>16643204
because he was a marxist dumbass, the communist plague is international

>> No.16643705

>>16643684
Non-instructional education versus straight up rigid capitalist drone instructions
Hard to say which is worse.

>> No.16643711

>>16643700
Capitalism is whats killing us though.

>> No.16643719

>>16643705
possibly the worst dogmatist on this board. do you have to bring your (justified) antipathy to capitalism into everything? someone could be raping puppies and you'd find a way to make some snide remark about capitalism. especially if the guy raping puppies happened to be a marxist.

>> No.16643729

>>16643705
>Hard to say which is worse
The former, kids NEED that thing you call "rigid capitalist drone instructions", its based on imprinting, they need to know the fundamental rules like it is something physical, they need to memorize, memorize, and memorize again, the mathematical operations, the syllables, the multiplication table
Actually why "capitalist drone obstructions" you marxist moron? The ancient greeks knew this was the fucking way, phonics and "drone instructions", the children had to MEMORIZE AND RECITATE entire poems like the odyssey, I thought Marx said capitalism didnt exist before the modern age? (actually it did, it always did, capitalism is just the economy itselt and marx was too retarded to notice this, the means of production in feudalism for example was the land, the tools, etc., the big capitalists were the feudal lords)

>>16643711
Shut the fuck up, capitalism is what improved human condition to never seen before planes of existence
https://m.youtube.com/watch?index=333&list=PLsguFHcW299ENhkOVOeH06GSRYBAPtyZh&v=jEEQ4bevw1Q

>> No.16643733

>>16643711
Anon, quit falling for that meme. Being against capitalism doesn't make you appear smart.

>> No.16643739

>>16643719
>>16643711

>> No.16643741

>>16643739
killing how? us who?

>> No.16643773

>>16643739
by the way
go live in cuba
stop leeching of capitalist countries while trying to destroy it with your flavor of marxism just to flee to another capitalist country when you get what you want (like what california is experiencing right now, they get their socialism, which destroys their land, then they escape to another place)
the austrian economics school already destroyed the marxists no matter how much you cope, and reality is the evidence for that, EVERY communist country had to stay capitalist to merely survive or thrive (china, russia, vietnam, etc.)
big data wont save you from mises absolute ass rape, the marxists responses to the economical calculation issue missed the point entirely and it showed in soviet russia

>> No.16643800

>>16643570
in Brazil the altright made a huge campaign to straw man'd the book and the author to oblivion. Many shit youtubers and illiterates socials commetators talked trash about Freire views without even taking the brazilian reality in considerarion.

Our country is fucked in a basic level in so many ways, economic and socially, and the paranoics cattles blame everything on the left "intelligentsia". We're harvesting the first crop of this shitty propaganda right now with this retarded president and a mass of dumb commentators who cant read and understand a basic book.

>> No.16643811

>>16643684
ollavette faggot dettect. go listen some negative Adorno's pepers dialletcs clubs, fucking clown

>> No.16643849

>>16643800
>and the paranoics cattles blame everything on the left "intelligentsia"
The left already made the country a communist shithole since the 1964 in case you havent realized you mouthbreather idiot

>> No.16643859

I read this thread and I see people too stupid to know they are too stupid.

Capitalism absolutely and without question affects the entire structure of western education, from the mass production of lecture, to the standardization of tests, to the one size fits all of cirriculum, to the expectation of having someone else tell you what to do for your entire life.

Capitalism absolutely and without question has propagandized education.

To counter that with socialist propaganda is equally abusive.

There are no sides, only morons who think there are sides. To take one side and say, "the socialist education is wrong because people can't into capitalism because they weren't indoctrinated into captialilsm." is just as valid and a stupid as saying, " the capitalist education is wrong because people can't into socialism because they were indoctrinated into capitalalism."

Both sides are indoctrinated into stupidity, and the world is dead because of it.

>> No.16643865

>>16643491
Shit the fuck up. Go shit in your panties like you are wont to do

>> No.16643870

>>16643849
yeah, they were with millitar dictators making a new left orwellian dystopia. the level of retardness of the brazilian /pol/ is imaginable.

thats is why the left parties won all elections and now win take over all the cities. the reality dont add up to you, cattle.

>> No.16643895

>>16643729
I’m not a Marxist. Education is nice, but too many of you are bent into fanatics for your overlords. Look at you defending this need for them to get just enough education that they can work for the corporate state till they die in obscurity.

I might not like the book, but the status quo isn’t any better
>>16643733
Educating myself is why I’m as smart as I am

>> No.16643911

>>16643773
>GO LIVE IN CUBA
>GO LIVE IN CUBA
>GO LIVE IN CHINA
>GO LIVE IN CHINA
Hysterical
>>16643741
You haven’t even heard? So much for education of state-capitalism.

>> No.16643926

>>16643729
I'm not a leftist but
>I thought Marx said capitalism didnt exist before the modern age? (actually it did, it always did, capitalism is just the economy itselt and marx was too retarded to notice this
Capitalism is a recognisably distinct mode or condition of economics (and a host of other things). This is not a Marxist or partisan idea. It's universal.
>Shut the fuck up, capitalism is what improved human condition to never seen before planes of existence
Marx himself says as much.

You could have also BTFO Butterfly by pointing out that communist countries used and use traditional disciplinary education methods.

>> No.16643948

>>16643870
>yeah, they were with millitar dictators making a new left orwellian dystopia. the level of retardness of the brazilian /pol/ is imaginable.
Yes moron, its an orwellian dystopia in strict sense when idiots like you havent even realized youre in deep shit
Lula himself already said one time that there were no right wing condidates in brazil's election
All universities are already dominated by marxists, the entire media is marxist
Anywhere you go if you behave like a marxist you will be rewarded, but if you dare say anything against it you would have your life ruined (thankfully things are changing)

>>16643859
>Capitalism absolutely and without question affects the entire structure of western education
Is that why every State is scared shitless of letting education become a free market?

>from the mass production of lecture, to the standardization of tests, to the one size fits all of cirriculum
All of that you list come because of a ministry of education, a state organ based on the prussian educstional system imposed by the STATE

“The school must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way, that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will.”
“Education should aim at destroying free will so that after pupils are thus schooled they will be incapable throughout their lives of thinking or acting otherwise than as their school masters would have wished…when this technique has been perfected, every government that has been in-charge of education for more than one generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen.”

>to the expectation of having someone else tell you what to do for your entire life.
Again, maybe youre mistaking capitalism with corporativism, but the fpremost agent of what you blame capitalism for is still the State

>> No.16643956

>>16643895
>Look at you defending this need for them to get just enough education that they can work for the corporate state till they die in obscurity.
go back to preschool you functional illiterate moron, i even mentioned the fucking ancient greeks to make the point of how essential it is to imprint the base knowledge necessary for anything involving reading and thinking

>> No.16643961

>>16643911
>Hysterical
Not hysterical, marxists are the hypocrites, they really should go live in cuba

>>16643926
>You could have also BTFO Butterfly by pointing out that communist countries used and use traditional disciplinary education methods
I did, china is such an example

>> No.16643988

>>16643800
>Our country is fucked in a basic level in so many ways, economic and socially, and the paranoics cattles blame everything on the left "intelligentsia

A lot of our problems come from the left intelligentsia. The destruction of family is one of those problems.

>> No.16644048

>>16643191
It's ideas are good if given the resources to implement them. Essentially you're trying to cultivate in the student an ability to analyze and critique for themselves, getting at the thing in itself of a subject instead of surface level understanding. What is math exactly? What are we doing when we add? How does the structure of history culminate in the events we read in books? It's aim is for students to become more aware of the nature of their own learning so they can be autonomous learner's.

Problem is, if your education system is fucked, it's hard to implement. You can have in-depth subject formation with a handful of students. But if your classroom is 30+, good fucking luck. Also, standardized testing that we see in the states basically nips this in the bud since you can't standardized individual development.

On the political angle, it's a tad harder to assess. On one hand, I agree that any attempt for an apolitical classroom effectively reinforces.the status quo. Education is an arm of the state, you have to assess your political status no matter what. But it's difficult to allow individual formation when you are expressing a political purpose. Freire gets around this by letting students express.political awareness but it's still kinda off for me.

When teaching I try and do a light version where I try to keep structure implicit instead of explicit. I let students get a bit lost sometimes so they have to assess of their own processes, but I keep standard banking knowledge available when needed.

>> No.16644053

>>16643948
retardness beyond any possible salvation

>> No.16644061

>>16643926
>You could have also BTFO Butterfly by pointing out that communist countries used and use traditional disciplinary education methods.
Haha no no no.

>>16643961
Well, I’m not a Marxist
>China is an example
Of state centralized capitalism (as a means to get to communism, so they say. I’m not holding my breath)

>> No.16644065

>>16643988
kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk


destruction of family!!!!!!!!

go back to /pol/ and go jerk some fat virgin crying about miscegenation and other bullshit. i can smell the manure here.

>> No.16644081

>>16644065
>destruction of family!!!!!!!!
>go back to /pol/ and go jerk some fat virgin crying about miscegenation and other bullshit. i can smell the manure here
Read Horkeheimer's book called autorithy and the family
The frankfurst school was the marxist cope to understand and solve the issue of the proletariat revolting and fighting against their absolutely amazing revolution that no one in their right mind would reject

>> No.16644095

>>16644048
>It's ideas are good if given the resources to implement them. Essentially you're trying to cultivate in the student an ability to analyze and critique for themselves, getting at the thing in itself of a subject instead of surface level understanding. What is math exactly? What are we doing when we add? How does the structure of history culminate in the events we read in books? It's aim is for students to become more aware of the nature of their own learning so they can be autonomous learner's.
>Problem is, if your education system is fucked, it's hard to implement.
No, the issue is trying to apply that to children before they even learnt the basic steps of math
You need to know how to sum a number and a million other things before deliberating about the nature of it (hence why tales and mathematicians that thought about this shit were almost all adults)
If you mean teaching the intuitive notion then yeah, thats how it is exemplified already

>> No.16644103

>>16644061
Just dont mind these people, they will call communist who doesnt enter they paranoic view.
>>16644081
You dont read and you not read any of west marxists authors. Just tell the same bullshit that the dumb commentators tell. They not read too. I now the kind of Coppolla, Mogstern shits talk about these books, and they miss at all the book comprehension.

>> No.16644140

>>16644065
Is... this... the power... of Brazilian leftwing intelligentsia?

With arguments like yours you can't really claim other people are ignorant.

>> No.16644159

>>16644103
>You dont read and you not read any of west marxists authors
>muh not real marxism
Yeah I guess thats why they have been applied thoroughly by the kgb and other trained marxists, not real marxist i guess
You dont even understand marxist let alone the history of it, shut the fuck up and go back to reading

>> No.16644165

>>16644061
>>16644140
bro, iam not a marxist, i a nihilist. but the brazilian right is retarded. i will not make arguments here, i have no time and no point in this now.

>> No.16644171

>>16644165
>i will not make arguments here, i have no time and no point in this now.
No time to make arguments. But plenty of time to make shitposts like >>16644065

>> No.16644191

>>16643191
I read this book for an education class.

The TL;DR is he advocates for problem posing education over banking education. Banking education is depositing knowledge into students who are merely passive receptacles. Problem posing education is working together to solve issues. He was very much social justice-y about education. The point of education is to change the world.

The context of this book is that it’s written to address illiterate and extremely poor Brazilian students. So one major criticism of Freire is that his ideas don’t perfectly translate to other contexts and countries.

Overall it was a good and interesting read but he definitely hyperbolizes banking education to mean students have zero agency. Not every education system is like mainland China’s...

>> No.16644213

>>16643191
op read the critics of it

https://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/Facundo/Ohliger1.html#I

John Egerton, “Searching for Freire”, Saturday Review of Education, April of 1973

David M. Fetterman, “Review of The Politics of Education”, American Anthropologist, March 1986

Rozanne Knudson, Review of Pedagogy of the Oppressed; Library Journal, April, 1971

Peter L. Berger, Pyramids of Sacrifice, Basic Books, 1974

David Millwood, “Conscientization and What It’s All About”, New Internationalist, June of 1974.

Wayne J. Urban, “Comments on Paulo Freire”, presented to American Educational Studies Association in Chicago, 23 February of 1972

Rolland G. Paulston, “Ways of Seeing Education and Social Change in Latin America”, Latin American Research Review. Vol. 27, No. 3, 1992

Bruce O. Boston, “Paulo Freire”, in Stanley Grabowski, ed., Paulo Freire, Syracuse University Publications in Continuing Education, 1972.

some of the criticism comes from people that believed this bullshit after they saw the reality of it, dont be fooled by this tool that destroyed thousands of intelligences

>> No.16644231

>>16644191
>The point of education is to change the world
yeah, and thats how he manages to create a new generation of revolutionaries ready to be manipulated
its a kind of evil genius, but i can admire its cunning

>> No.16644244
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16644244

Dear lord brazilian poltards are hilarious

>> No.16644278

>>16644244
you wouldn't be laughing if you had to live daily with the consequences marxism had in our country
drug trafficking warlord, generalized violence, all thanks for marxist "intellectuals" caliming it was a good idea to inventivize violence and criminality "for the good of the revolution", the lumpenproletariat
If you studied 5 minutes the influence of marxist agents in brazil you would know about the workers party (PT) influence in the creation of PCC and CV (first capital command and red command, both of the most powerful brazilian gangs)
Not to mention the admited association of Foro de SP with FARC, a terrorist narcotraffic organization
You laugh because youre stupud and ignorant, you suffer from dunning kruger but you will never notice it because your low iq wont let you

>> No.16644294

>>16643988
>The destruction of family is one of those problems.
I never understood this. Even in places where the left was utterly triumphant, like the USSR, people were able to start and grow families, as they are in China today. Is it harder to do so in a Marxist nation? Sure. But the spiritual and emotional bonds of family are not as weak as you seem to think. They were there when Marx was an infant, they will be there when Marx's philosophy is forgotten.

You must forgive me for being presumptuous, but if I had to guess, you are a man frustrated that no woman you have pursued has wanted a family, or least a family with you. Do not be so pessimistic. Hundreds of millions of women live in Brazil today. A woman who wants to start a family and thinks you're the man to do it with is out there. Be patient, continue dating, and you will find someone. They might not be perfect, but they will be someone with whom you can establish a happy family. Best of luck :)

>> No.16644321

>>16644294
>I never understood this. Even in places where the left was utterly triumphant, like the USSR, people were able to start and grow families, as they are in China today. Is it harder to do so in a Marxist nation? Sure. But the spiritual and emotional bonds of family are not as weak as you seem to think. They were there when Marx was an infant, they will be there when Marx's philosophy is forgotten.
You dont understand, thats just for the revolution to happen, for their target countries, they dont do it own their own already countries if they achieved their goals of complete domination
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ivT-I-yxtdY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xA2bAHFJ-kk

>> No.16644344

>>16644321
Again, you have the power to move against the current. You have the ability to find a compatible woman to start a family with. I assume you want a tradcon wife. Millions of tradcon women are out there. Go and find one.

>> No.16644354

>>16644294
From
>A lot of our problems come from the left intelligentsia. The destruction of family is one of those problems.

This person comes up with
>You must forgive me for being presumptuous, but if I had to guess, you are a man frustrated that no woman you have pursued has wanted a family, or least a family with you. Do not be so pessimistic. Hundreds of millions of women live in Brazil today. A woman who wants to start a family and thinks you're the man to do it with is out there. Be patient, continue dating, and you will find someone. They might not be perfect, but they will be someone with whom you can establish a happy family. Best of luck :)

What is the name of this?
Is someone who writes like this incapable of doing better? Maybe asking "why do you think the left intelligentsia is causing the Brazilian family to be destroyed"? What causes this lack of intellectual capacity?

>> No.16644355
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16644355

>>16644278
Stop motherfucker you're killing me(you know, metaphorically)

>> No.16644368

>>16644344
Again, you are someone who is not fit to debate. You are intellectually incapable.

>> No.16644395

>>16644344
>Again, you have the power to move against the current. You have the ability to find a compatible woman to start a family with. I assume you want a tradcon wife. Millions of tradcon women are out there. Go and find one.
yeah thats what im doing
its hard though since almost all women go to the universities and end up brainwashed and degenerates (before and after the "federal")

>>16644354
>What is the name of this?
ad hominem, you have to understand that 80% of the brazilian population (if not more) are functionally illiterate and will argue with whatever they heard in the media, no matter how stupid that is

>> No.16644398

>>16644354
>Is someone who writes like this incapable of doing better? Maybe asking "why do you think the left intelligentsia is causing the Brazilian family to be destroyed"? What causes this lack of intellectual capacity?
My experience with people who express this view is that they are often frustrated that the women of the type that they wish to date/marry are either unwilling to date them, or that such women are hard to find. (If that is not the case, I apologize).

In all honesty, you cannot control the "left intelligentsia" or their agendas. You can only control your fate as much as you can, and so I think it is more useful to focus on what you can impact. If the left wants to erode the idea of family, then they will continue to do so no matter how much you want them to stop. The only real way to combat it is building a healthy, happy family of your own.

>> No.16644407

>>16644398
>You can only control your fate as much as you can, and so I think it is more useful to focus on what you can impact. If the left wants to erode the idea of family, then they will continue to do so no matter how much you want them to stop
criminally wrong and stupid, thats the duty of intellectuals, to destroy the leftists in the ideas field and show how things are to the public

>> No.16644427

>>16644398
The position being argued with is "is the Brazilian left intelligentsia causing the destruction of the family in Brazil"?
Calling someone a loser in order to defend the Brazilian intelligentsia is not a good answer to this.

Neither is this
>In all honesty, you cannot control the "left intelligentsia" or their agendas. You can only control your fate as much as you can, and so I think it is more useful to focus on what you can impact. If the left wants to erode the idea of family, then they will continue to do so no matter how much you want them to stop. The only real way to combat it is building a healthy, happy family of your own.

The question here is: is the Brazilian left intelligentsia causing problems to Brazil? Is the destruction of the Brazilian family one of those problems?

>> No.16644541

>>16644095
Well Freire is focusing more on getting farmers to contemplate political systems in his examples. For children learning math he'd be more focused on education that just asks students to memorize theorems and answering problems in lieu of actually helping them understand the purpose of the theorems. I'm paraphrasing, but one of his major points is that going too far into the abstract or concrete is counterproductive. You need to show their relationship to allow understanding.

>> No.16644876

>>16643191
ITT stupid brazilians that never read the book and just believed what the media told them

>> No.16645466

>>16644876
I'm Brazilian, I've never read the book and the mainstream media only says good things about Freire. The ones who hate him are usually right-wing tools. I have no opinion whatsoever about him. People that I know who study Pedagogy consider him to be very important, though.

>> No.16645529

>>16644876
>that never read the book
>>16644213
>https://www.bmartin.cc/dissent/documents/Facundo/Ohliger1.html#I
>John Egerton, “Searching for Freire”, Saturday Review of Education, April of 1973
>David M. Fetterman, “Review of The Politics of Education”, American Anthropologist, March 1986
>Rozanne Knudson, Review of Pedagogy of the Oppressed; Library Journal, April, 1971
>Peter L. Berger, Pyramids of Sacrifice, Basic Books, 1974
>David Millwood, “Conscientization and What It’s All About”, New Internationalist, June of 1974.
>Wayne J. Urban, “Comments on Paulo Freire”, presented to American Educational Studies Association in Chicago, 23 February of 1972
>Rolland G. Paulston, “Ways of Seeing Education and Social Change in Latin America”, Latin American Research Review. Vol. 27, No. 3, 1992
>Bruce O. Boston, “Paulo Freire”, in Stanley Grabowski, ed., Paulo Freire, Syracuse University Publications in Continuing Education, 1972.