ITT: What you hate about libertarians [spoiler]and objectivists[/spoiler]

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Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:35:54 2011 No.1657854 [Reply] [Original]

ITT: What you hate about libertarians and objectivists

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:37:54 2011 No.1657859 they're all market naivetés "If the CEOs fuck us over, it's because we didn't believe in the market enough"

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:42:54 2011 No.1657874 File: 147 KB, 317x400, no-exit-libertarianism-anarchy-for-rich-people[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:43:54 2011 No.1657875 File: 43 KB, 400x280, Hate+Taxes+Government+Regulations,+Love+Guns+-+It%27s+better+in+Somalia[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	гuby vajeen Sat Mar 26 13:43:54 2011 No.1657876 File: 13 KB, 180x217, Plekhanov.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I'm an objectivist because Ronald Reagan and I read Lenin as well as the victims of his hilarious rhetoric.

>>	гuby vajeen Sat Mar 26 13:46:54 2011 No.1657879 File: 39 KB, 306x423, Glorioso.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1657874 add ghaddafi to this picture. he is a practicing anarchist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:47:54 2011 No.1657880 File: 118 KB, 830x974, 1294462458712.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:47:54 2011 No.1657881

>Government takes some of your income to make sure your food isn't rotten, your roads can be driven on safely, and the nation's children are educated
>BAD AND EVIL, LIBERAL COMMIE FASCISM
>Private corporation dumps toxic waste into the local water supply, poisoning everyone in the area
>THANK GOD FOR FREE MARKET CAPITALISM

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:50:54 2011 No.1657886 >>1657879 Nonsense. He's accepted tons of government assistance to run his country. >>1657876 I don't know enough about objectivism. Mind going into more detail on this joke?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:51:54 2011 No.1657888 >Social welfare is bad because I have to pay money to help other people and US health care is already so good because rich people from Europe come to America to get good medicine I heard this on Glenn Beck once

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:54:54 2011 No.1657892 >>1657886 objectivism is Ayn Rand's invention. She was born in USSR and hates 'em.

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 13:54:54 2011 No.1657893

>>1657886
The four pillars of objectivism according to Ayn Rand:
>Objective Reality: nothing other than what we perceive
>Reason: pretty self explanatory
>Self-interest: egotism is highly valued
>Capitalism: Free market is best market

Essentially objectivists don't like to help anybody and they are against any government welfare/interference.

>>	гuby vajeen Sat Mar 26 13:58:54 2011 No.1657904 >>1657892 >She was born in USSR orly?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 14:02:54 2011 No.1657914 >>1657904 Yep, she was also very butthurt that the Bolshevik closed down her daddy's drug store. Not so keen on 'survival of the fittest' when she had lung cancer and accepted government welfare.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 14:03:54 2011 No.1657916 let's privatize the fire department guys i'm only buying the basic subscription since i don't use the oven very often

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 14:13:54 2011 No.1657942 File: 1.21 MB, 892x1213, 1296634842050.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 14:42:54 2011 No.1658019

Well, philosophically, I like libertarians. I like liberty yo, it's a good thing. And ideally, yeah, things would be like that. But We don't live in a perfect world, and people are going to be greedy rat-bastards and you have to have a plan for that.

Same with Marxism, if your plan includes "Everyone working together", you need a plan for when they don't. If it's "send in the tanks", then you've got a problem.

But personally, every libertarian I've ever met in real life has been kind of a douchbag. And they're always white males from wealthy families.

It's kinda like the tea-partiers, I'm all for less taxes, but I ain't touching your party with a 10' pole because of all the crazy idiots you have in the party.

(so yeah, >>1657942 brought me in here out of the blue. I guess I'm off back to /tg/. Have fun /lit/)

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 14:46:54 2011 No.1658030 >>1658019 Marxism is not a political philosophy, it's an analytical lens.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 15:52:54 2011 No.1658190 >>1658019 i need not see a libertarian that is not a middle upper class white male

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:22:54 2011 No.1658836 File: 30 KB, 245x250, 1297645866911.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:24:54 2011 No.1658844 I can be an asshole sometimes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:34:54 2011 No.1658871 >>1658019 >>1658190 Criticizing libertarianism by saying it's only for rich white males is like criticizing Marxism by saying all Marxists are pretentious hipsters who don't have jobs. It's pointless.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:40:54 2011 No.1658887 >>1658871 this post brought to you by white privilege (tm)

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:41:54 2011 No.1658889 >>1658019 Tea Party members are crazy? For what? Being constitutionalist?

>>	♦ !Rrxa7zePwI Sat Mar 26 21:42:54 2011 No.1658891 >constitutionalist americans...dumb as fuck

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:47:54 2011 No.1658898 >>1658889 >mfw they want to get rid of birthright citizenship

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:50:54 2011 No.1658905 >>1658889 The TEA Party doesn't go nearly far enough. We are also not supposed to have standing armies... but the defense budget is a sacred cow. We need to get rid of social security, medicare and the military, and the tea partiers won't touch those.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:53:54 2011 No.1658912 >>1658898 >>1658905 The Tea parties want to abolish eveything from the FDA to the e.g. depts. of education, health, social security etc.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:53:54 2011 No.1658913 Libertarians: Narcissism Objectivists: I'm right, you're wrong ethos

>>	♦ !Rrxa7zePwI Sat Mar 26 21:54:54 2011 No.1658914 File: 13 KB, 400x345, moses.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1658905 and then moses said unto the people of america, go forth and do stuffs!

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sat Mar 26 21:55:54 2011 No.1658919 they're both full of subhumans

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 21:57:54 2011 No.1658923 File: 71 KB, 431x383, 1289099728234.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >thread

>>	♦ !Rrxa7zePwI Sat Mar 26 21:58:54 2011 No.1658926 seriously who the fuck invented american politics it is a joke

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:01:54 2011 No.1658933 >>1658926 What glorious nation do you hail from, shapefag?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:02:54 2011 No.1658937 >>1658926 Eh ... Greece and Rome, for starters?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:12:54 2011 No.1658959 >>1658923 Did you just make a flowergirl reference on /lit/? I love you if you did.

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:16:54 2011 No.1658972

Some of my friends I knew in high school, whom I held in a high regard of intelligence, are starting to jump on this whole Ayn Rand/Objectivism bandwagon.

I know next time I see them I might end up getting in a debate with them about this, but I only know enough to know that I disagree with them. Can someone give me some links or some recommendations on what to read to better acquaint myself with the whole set of ideals?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:17:54 2011 No.1658974 >>1658959 wat

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:19:54 2011 No.1658983 >>1658974 Flowergirl Profree market troll/tripfag from /neww/

>>	nostradumbass !!+DqhH00Ia5q Sat Mar 26 22:19:54 2011 No.1658984 Their general ignorance of history, and their rewriting of what little they know.

nostradumbass !!+DqhH00Ia5q Sat Mar 26 22:22:54 2011 No.1658992

>>1658972

Re-read Animal Farm, but instead of George Orwell's themes, imagine one where the pigs are benevolent company owners who only want what's best, and all the other animals are stupid ignorant thieves trying to redistribute power. That would be Ayn Rand in a nutshell.

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:22:54 2011 No.1658994
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>>1658959
Possibly.

>>1658972
Depends on how in-depth you want to get. If you'd consider reading an essay collection, "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" would be a good choice. She was a vastly better essayist than novelist.

>>	♦ !Rrxa7zePwI Sat Mar 26 22:23:54 2011 No.1658996 >>1658933 >>1658937 LOL

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:23:54 2011 No.1658997 >>1658905 We need to get rid of medicare and social security? Your a fucking asshole.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:24:54 2011 No.1659003 File: 16 KB, 500x314, 1295805075284.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1658994 I definitely want to get pretty in-depth. I'll start with those essays.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:26:54 2011 No.1659005 File: 39 KB, 1280x720, 1281719308545.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] They don't have faith in humanity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:26:54 2011 No.1659008 >>1658996 I'll take that LOL to mean "somewhere in Europe". The rest of the world has a hard time matching that level of pompousness.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:28:54 2011 No.1659018 >>1658996 >implying the Founding Fathers didn't see themselves as the spiritual inheritors of Graeco-Roman republican values and traditions Regardless of how it turned out this belief was one of the key bases of ideology for early American politics.

>>	♦ !Rrxa7zePwI Sat Mar 26 22:31:54 2011 No.1659021 >>1659018 are you truman's high school friend or what is it

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:31:54 2011 No.1659023
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>>1658972
Here.

"Free market" doesn't exist. Its all just legal opinion. A homeless man COULD find himself a plot of land and grow his own food to eck out a living, but hey, someone else owns that land "lol gtfo"
Also, Rand's idea that rich people should go on strike is hilarious. Atlas shrugs. Fine, dump him. We don't need him. Promote a nice middle management guy.

>>1657893
>Objective Reality: nothing other than what we perceive
And I see starving people that could work.
>Reason: pretty self explanatory
The Age of Reason... Rand knew it little.
>Self-interest: egotism is highly valued
"Greed is good" said Gordon Gecko, before going to jail.
>Capitalism: Free market is best market
No such thing

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:35:54 2011 No.1659030 >>1659021 >proved wrong >so mad

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:36:54 2011 No.1659032 >>1659003 NO NO NO NO NO You want to debate your friends for their folly, not join in the deceit

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:38:54 2011 No.1659035 >>1659023 A free market is only best insofar as it allocates the prices for commodities the most efficiently out side of having total information.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:39:54 2011 No.1659036 >>1659035 people > prices

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:39:54 2011 No.1659037 >>1659018 Rousseau, Locke, ...Paine. But yeah Athens was beginning, and its been a struggle ever since. It wasn't just hereditary rule that was ruining the world, but the greedy nature of man in general. It can be beat back. It will be beat back.

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:40:54 2011 No.1659039

>>1659032
Well, I have to read it first.

Here's my strategy. One of them has actually read Ayn Rand and all that and believes in his bullshit, the other is listening to him and he hates reading. I'm good friends with him, so I want to know and understand better than he does so I can tell him why it's awful. Then I'll work on the other guy.

Or I could just keep to myself and let them have their opinions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:45:54 2011 No.1659053 File: 86 KB, 650x632, Keynes-of some use.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1659039 Rand's "philosophy" is worth a glance at the wiki to sum it up. Its pea-brained nonsense. Read the opposing arguments and you'll know how to defend reason.

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:48:54 2011 No.1659059

>>1659023
Greed is good, as long as you don't do anything illegal. Gecko was right that greed is responsible for the successes of a nation however. Greed is what creates progress and technological advancement. Only you can make make your life better, relying on others for everything makes you weak and complacent.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:51:54 2011 No.1659064 >>1659053 >hahahaowwow.jpg Keynesianism is a joke, the federal reserve is what got us into this mess, it's never saved us. Central banking and regulation hurt the economy and create a society of welfare and the dole.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 22:57:54 2011 No.1659078 >>1659064 >the federal reserve is what got us into this mess HAHAHAHHAHAH ^This is what I hate about Libertarians. They think saying something enough times makes it true. So stupid.

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 23:00:54 2011 No.1659085
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>>1659059
>Greed is good, as long as you don't do anything illegal
But that's just it. The wealthy BUY lawmakers to their advantage.
NECESSITY is what you mean.
How stupid can you Randroids get?

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 23:13:54 2011 No.1659121

>>1659085
If the government wasn't so involved in economic matters, then the wealthy wouldn't buy lawmakers, becasue it would be pointless. A corporatist system is only possible when the government is intensely involved in economics, making it lucrative for corporations to corrupt government officials. This leads to corporate welfare and privileges. Freer markets are more meritocritic, and those that try to cheat are unable to, since the state cannot intervene if the corporation fails.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 23:13:54 2011 No.1659122 File: 12 KB, 353x353, 1299203277149.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1659064

>>	nostradumbass !!+DqhH00Ia5q Sat Mar 26 23:15:54 2011 No.1659132 >>1659035 Actually, it's on the lack of total information that the free market theory fails, ie there is no "perfectly rational actor."

nostradumbass !!+DqhH00Ia5q Sat Mar 26 23:22:54 2011 No.1659145

>>1659059

The term is actually "self-interest." Whether people only act in self-interest is philosophically fraught, but let's say we adopt that position: the problem is that it tells us basically nothing.

I flip a coin 100 times to determine the average at which it will land heads or tails. I do so in my self-interest, ie I'm curious and want to find something out. I flip the coin once. It lands heads. Did my self-interest determine that? No. I flip it a second time. Tails. Self-interest impact the outcome? No. I do so 98 more times. The split is 57/43. Do my motives in committing the act of flipping a coin 100 times affect each flip? The sum total of flips? Does knowing I acted in self-interest help us predict roughly what the split will be for the next 100 flips? No, no and no.

Strictly speaking, socialists act in their self-interest because a philosophy of wealth distribution ensuring the benefit of all includes one's self, ie, participating in a socialist utopia is an act of self-interest. Does self-interest tell us anything about anything? Generally, no.

People acting out of "greed" do colossally stupid things, too. See above re: incomplete information.

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 23:23:54 2011 No.1659148
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>implying ACTUAL libertarianism and objectivism are the same
>implying that somalia isn't the exact opposite of the end goal of a libertarian society
>mfw

obvious troll thread is obvious

Anonymous Sat Mar 26 23:50:54 2011 No.1659221

>>1659121
>If the government wasn't so involved in economic matters, then the wealthy wouldn't buy lawmakers
AAHHAHAHAHAHA. There is no such thing as "natural rights" it all a legal concept by men, and governments just exist (If it were anarchy it would be EVERYONE as government) and the wealthy, the powerful, even if one promises he will never buy lawmakers or some other moral crime, there will always be another who will. Your faith is the aristocracy of the world shows you to be a damn whig.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 23:52:54 2011 No.1659229 >>1659148 >implying that Somalia isn't the exact opposite of what we pretend will be a libertarian society >Mhomosexfw Fixed that up for ya

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 26 23:57:54 2011 No.1659247 File: 32 KB, 500x515, 1290065198814.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] "I swear—by my life and my love of it—that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." So are they all farmers?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 00:05:54 2011 No.1659275 /k/ here. ayn rands self-righteous egotiscal greed is the exact opposite of what it takes to keep a soldier fighting. the exact opposite of what makes humanity even remotely worthy of existing

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 00:41:54 2011 No.1659366 File: 217 KB, 391x409, 1298843176502.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1659275

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 00:53:54 2011 No.1659397
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>>1659275
What keeps a soldier fighting is statist propaganda and meaningless slogans designed to collectivize and destroy the ego to turn the soldier into a mindless robot. The military is a hive mind, plain and simple. I support gun ownership but I would never join the ego-death worshipping "hoo-rah" collective of the military.

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 01:12:54 2011 No.1659418

>>1659397
>>1659397

What allows a soldier to fight is love, in point of fact. That is why they are called Brothers in Arms. Ever read starship troopers? Ayn Rand says that if you saw a kid drowning, you should never help them unless it benefits you. Heinlein says that what's redemptive about the human race is that two men will both drown in an attempt to save that drowning child. no man left behind.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 02:06:54 2011 No.1659423 >>1659397 Are you a libertarian or an anarchist? Libertarians do indeed stand with every other regular "statist." Don't kid yourself.

Nope !7kN.h2ykvs Sun Mar 27 02:10:54 2011 No.1659426

>>1659397
You're saying the only reason anyone fights in a war is propaganda and being forced into it? Don't be silly, some people just like to kill because it's part of our nature as a living, evolving animal.

http://www.wsu.edu/~hughesc/why_men_love_war.htm

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 02:16:54 2011 No.1659433 >>1659397 There are a lot of psychopaths in the war raket.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 02:20:54 2011 No.1659436 >>1659397 >>1659418 >>1659426 a triumvirate of idiots

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 02:20:54 2011 No.1659437 I have often wondered why libertarians fail to see that the economic and fiscal policies that they espouse will likely end up creating massive monopolies.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 02:22:54 2011 No.1659438 i am both a libertarian and objectivist. come@mebro

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 02:30:54 2011 No.1659449

>>1659418
I thought Starship Troopers was a critique of fascism?
The bugs didn't start the war.
>>1659426
>>1659433
That makes it even worse. just because some people enjoy war doesn't make government-sponsored murder any more justified.
>>1659423
Maybe in defense. It doesn't change the fact that most wars are started for collective reasons. You either fight for state, religion, or for the "people," where the people is usually defined as the ruling elite.

Don't kid yourself, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Vietnam aren't for "freedom," they're exist for more government control.

>>	Nope !7kN.h2ykvs Sun Mar 27 02:35:54 2011 No.1659456 >>1659449 No one said anything about justifying it. I was just stating the reality of the situation (ironically, it seems objectivists have a hard time understanding that).

>>	nostradumbass !!+DqhH00Ia5q Sun Mar 27 02:53:54 2011 No.1659497 >>1659449 We speak a common language for collective reasons. We employ a common currency for collective reasons. Your objections to these…?

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 03:36:54 2011 No.1659572

>>1659449
>It doesn't change the fact that most wars are started for collective reasons.
The anti-collectivism is another childish trope.
Nothing is gained from individualism other than a little shuteye on the weekends.

Imagine the inventor of the wheel! A hermit.
Dies with the technology. No one knows.
In effect, he is not the inventor of the wheel.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 03:39:54 2011 No.1659578 do ppl use 'in effect' to mean "in a certain sense that I favour" on this board or what

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 03:48:54 2011 No.1659591 >>1659578 I'm sorry, was affect the word? And the scenario I made was just like "a tree falling in the woods" Philosophically you can say he was the inventor, sure.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 03:53:54 2011 No.1659596 Do ppl use 'philosophically' to mean 'as part of the fulfillment of some relative end' on this board or what

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 03:55:54 2011 No.1659600 File: 39 KB, 316x400, Aw too bad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1659596 Not in that instance no.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 03:55:54 2011 No.1659601 >>1659596 All of your posts in this thread have been boring and irrelevant. Congratulations.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 03:56:54 2011 No.1659602 D&E please contribute and stop doing that.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 04:05:54 2011 No.1659613 >>1659600 Well actually that is what it is reducible to, you are free to prove me wrong :)

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 04:21:54 2011 No.1659638

I don't hate Libertarians, during this stage Socialists and Libertarians are natural allies. Alliances of the Left are a fucking terrible idea. Communism does not mix, it subsumes or it kills. See: Trade Unions in the Soviet Union, the fate of POUM and the Anarchist brigades in the Spanish Civil War.

Fuck Objectivists tho.

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 04:36:54 2011 No.1659663

Beyond all the silly propaganda, Ayn Rand was never against Charity. She was against Charity beyond one's wishes. Example would be Forced subsidies and helping the undeserving.

In her books (even in selfishness, the unknown virtue) she only denounces your responsibility to be charitable. But her ethics do not stop you from being charitable if you WANT to be.

There is a small quote by Roark (inb4 rape) that I vaguely remember as him saying that he would obviosly help a man caught in a truck accident bleeding on the road. According to him this is human response. But to help a man who is going to put that help against your benefits is what he objects to (Associated steel in Atlas Shrugged).

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 04:42:54 2011 No.1659668 >>1659596 They simply mean it to denote impracticality or rationalizing inevitability.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 04:43:54 2011 No.1659670 >>1659668 >impracticality or rationalizing inevitability Oh, so as part of the fulfillment of some relative end. Great.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 04:45:54 2011 No.1659672 >>1659670 Can you actually prove that assertion: Impracticality -> Fulfillment of some relative end?

Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 04:48:54 2011 No.1659675

>>1659672
>Impracticality -> Fulfillment of some relative end?
To say of something that it is 'impractical' or to use the word 'impracticality' in relation to something is to fulfill some relative end, that is; fulfilling the relative end of conveying meaning, (simply).

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 04:48:54 2011 No.1659676 >>1659672 No, he can't. Why would you assume otherwise in the first place is beyond me.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 04:50:54 2011 No.1659677 >>1659675 >I don't think so Tim. I think you need some sleep D&E. These are not your usual standards.

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 04:52:54 2011 No.1659679 >>1659677 >I think you're wrong You really showed me buddy

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 05:00:54 2011 No.1659681 >>1659679 Ok. Lets discuss the term "Fulfilling some end". Does it not mean that something was actively accomplished? On the other hand, calling something Impractical hardly leads to anything. Its simply not performing any action.

Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 05:04:54 2011 No.1659684

>>1659681
>Does it not mean that something was actively accomplished?
nope

>calling something Impractical hardly leads to anything.
I'm not talking about "leading to anything", I'm talking about fulfilling some relative end. Calling something impractical is fulfilling a relative end. This has nothing to do with "actively accomplished" or "performing any action"

>>	Deep&Edgy !pSkjEcB9sQ Sun Mar 27 05:06:54 2011 No.1659686 also, going to sleep now

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 05:44:54 2011 No.1659704 >>1659686 sleep well

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 08:20:54 2011 No.1659803

>>1659663
I don't understand why nobody else seems to understand that it's the coercion that's the problem, not the act itself.

For example, if I see someone that needs some help, I'll help them. If they tell me to help them, I'll tell them to fuck themselves.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 09:05:54 2011 No.1659847 >>1659397 >collective, hove mind Pointlessly rebellious kid detected. When you start from a position of total distrust of any authority, everything seems like a hive-mind. And such a viewpoint is completely worthless.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 09:07:54 2011 No.1659849 >>1659803 >I don't understand why nobody else seems to understand that it's the coercion that's the problem, not the act itself. Plenty of people understand it. But constantly harping on the means, and not the ends is not a productive mindset.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 09:20:54 2011 No.1659860 >>1657854 I got nothing against objectivists, Louis Zukofsky is one of my favourite poets of all time. c wat i did thar

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 09:23:54 2011 No.1659862

>>1659437
>I have often wondered why libertarians fail to see that the economic and fiscal policies that they espouse will likely end up creating massive monopolies.

Because they naively believe that there will always be someone else to start up a competing company, and disregard how far people will go to secure their power.

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 09:31:54 2011 No.1659869

The thing with charity, as Sartre and others have pointed out, is that it basically institutionalises one of the modes of capitalism (choosing to spend money on something) as the (ineffective and quick-fix) solution to a wide variety of often systemic problems caused by capitalism itself.

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 10:34:54 2011 No.1659915
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The main problem that I have with these groups is their quasi-religious devotion to lassiez-faire capitalism and unwillingness to understand the basic tenants of market economics.
Free market theory operates under four assumptions:
1. An infinite number of competitors
2. No barrier to entry
3. No product differentiation
4. Perfect flow of information
However, these conditions may not exist for every industry, so straight-up lassiez-faire capitalism may not work in every case. In these cases, government intervention or government ownership can increase market efficiency (i.e. railroads are often best run as government services, regulatory agencies make sure advertising about products is truthful).
There are many admirable qualities to the libertarian ideology, such as reducing the defense budget or ending the drug war. However, libertarians seem to focus more often on ending programs which benefit the market like education or the FDA. They almost never focus on serious market issues, such as government subsidies to major oil and automotive companies, which have caused stagnation in the energy and transport industries, or corn subsidies, which are an even greater problem.
They also tend to be quick to abandon their social libertarian roots.

Anonymous Sun Mar 27 11:26:54 2011 No.1659973

>>1659449
apparently you only saw the troll-movie

>>1659915
The problem is that teabaggers and other people who define themselves as libertarians aren't really liberatarians. A true libertarian embrace government, so long as the government is a) efficient and capable of carrying out its duties b) doesn't micromanage and stays out of people's business.

Anarchy is the OPPOSITE of Libertarianism, as under Locke's model of government, the government exists to protect people's rights which would be violated in a lawless anarchy. see: somalia

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 11:29:54 2011 No.1659975 cancer

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 11:35:54 2011 No.1659982 >>1659973 Libertarians and anarchists are close to each other when it comes to the presence of government in one's life. The opposite of libertarianism would be constant government interference, which is not anarchism.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 11:40:54 2011 No.1659987 >>1659982 but government exists to STOP AND PREVENT anarchy. Libertarians just believe that the primary purpose of government is to protect the universal human rights of its citizens

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 12:02:54 2011 No.1660006 >>1659987 More like libertarians believe the primary purpose of government is to protect property rights.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 12:04:54 2011 No.1660013 >>1659987 Also, I think your idea of anarchy is a bit childish. I mean, it's likely that if government wasn't around there would be rampant violence and crime, but not all anarchists believe that in that kind of anarchism. Look up Bakunin.

>>	Redditor Sun Mar 27 12:16:54 2011 No.1660028 In europe objectivism means "illiterate".

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 12:32:54 2011 No.1660062 >>1660013 the idea that peaceful anarchy is sustainable is the childish idea. but hey, somalia proves that anarchy really does work...

>>	nostradumbass !!+DqhH00Ia5q Sun Mar 27 19:18:54 2011 No.1661098 >>1659803 >I don't understand why nobody else seems to understand that it's the coercion that's the problem, not the act itself. In some schools of thought, private property makes work an act of coercion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 21:02:54 2011 No.1661316 File: 41 KB, 401x412, bump1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 27 22:03:54 2011 No.1661463 They honestly believe laissez faire economics work. They seem to have no memory of all the shitty things unregulated business did in the past and the shitty things they still do today. This and this alone makes them insufferably stupid.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 04:49:54 2011 No.1662157 File: 49 KB, 400x519, 1285216166521.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 05:12:54 2011 No.1662190
File: 171 KB, 557x433, 1287043728242.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Libertarianism I actually need to read a lot more about before I can accurately comment. But Objectivism... that's the ideology that Ayn Rand helped propagate? Well, I dislike the fact that its really Dog eat Dog at base... people like Reagan who would have obviously been in full support of this ideology... sure they were great for Rich upper class White folks... but nobody else really...
Both those groups from what I can tell want to get rid of taxes to increase profits no? If so I would disagree, if we're "gaining profit" and we ALL have to live on this Earth we should all have to at least pitch some of it in to create the things we need, otherwise nothing would get built.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 05:25:54 2011 No.1662215 I used to be libertarian until I realized how much of it is pretty retarded. Funfact: There exists forms of oppression and coercion done by things other than the state.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 05:28:54 2011 No.1662216 I want to know what the fuck was up with Rand hating Kant so much. Was she stood up to prom by a Kantian or some shit?

>>	3rd Mon Mar 28 05:29:54 2011 No.1662217 File: 87 KB, 400x605, Conan the Libertarian (1299678371025).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1662215

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 05:35:54 2011 No.1662222 Libertarians like to think that their economics is their strongest point when really its their acchiles heel. Especially people at the lvmi boards. What the hell kind of economics rejects mathematical models and empirical investigation?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 06:28:54 2011 No.1662256 Who the fuck is Ayn Rand? Now, I read on wikipedia her real name is Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum. People who change their names has something to hide and should not speak about authenticity or individuality or liberterianism.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 06:30:54 2011 No.1662259

>>1662256
This was the middle of the Cold War and the Rosenbaums had just been executed for high treason.
I could see her trying to distance herself from the Soviets out of disgust with their political and economic systems rather than just trying to fit in, hence why she named herself "Ayn."
Seriously, what kind of name is that?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 06:32:54 2011 No.1662262 >>1662259 >rosenbaums

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 06:39:54 2011 No.1662270 >>1662262 I was hoping you wouldn't catch that. But still, her name was Eastern European as fuck.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 09:59:54 2011 No.1662367 They listen to Alex Jones and think GMO crops are a bad thing.

>>	faceless_mfw Mon Mar 28 10:04:54 2011 No.1662371 >>1658019 >I like liberty yo, it's a good thing. That is, essentially, the Libertarian argument.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 10:15:54 2011 No.1662391 can anyone recommend some good essays on libertarianism?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 10:17:54 2011 No.1662395 >>1662371 It's not a bad one.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 10:22:54 2011 No.1662401 smuggest bastards on the internet

>>	Zero Replies !8OOqv/PUKE Mon Mar 28 10:30:54 2011 No.1662409 >>1662401 not by even a quarter

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 10:36:54 2011 No.1662418 >>1662371 Every political party claims that to be their ideology. Try again. A more accurate representation of the libertarian philosophy is: >Fuck you, why should I care about anyone but me?

>>	faceless_mfw Mon Mar 28 10:40:54 2011 No.1662422 >>1662418 >mfw it was philosophical not political.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 10:47:54 2011 No.1662431

>>1662391
"Two Treatises of Government" by John Locke. He is considered the founder of Libertarianism

ITT: people who can't wrap their heads around the fact that modern day libertarians/liberals do not actually fit the definition of what Libertarianism or Liberalism is.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 11:03:54 2011 No.1662454 Am I the only one here who'd just like to go back to simple aristocracy? Who's tired of the modern political world? All their equality basically means mediocrity, uniformity, etc.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 11:26:54 2011 No.1662491 >>1662454 UK still has aristocracy... You probably mean something like North Korea though, and look how far way they are from uniformity.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 11:38:54 2011 No.1662510

>>1662431

That's only in America. Everywhere else Libertarian is understood to be a socialist thing. No one in Europe takes the Ayn Rand bullshit seriously at all, a world built on that would collapse within 3 seconds, and who the fuck would want to live in it anyway?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 11:42:54 2011 No.1662518 >>1662491 No, I mean like 2000 years ago.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 11:43:54 2011 No.1662520 >>1662510 I live in Denmark and liberals aren't considered socialist anymore. They've melted together with the Conservatives.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 11:45:54 2011 No.1662521 >>1662520 Libertarians aren't liberals in the economic sense. You probably mean liberal in economic terms i.e supporters of a "free market".

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 11:47:54 2011 No.1662523 >>1662518 You mean Jesus?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 12:24:54 2011 No.1662559 >>1662523 I mean ancient Greece... alright, a bit more than 2000 years but who cares

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 12:25:54 2011 No.1662562 >>1662521 Hmm, I'm not sure which Danish parties would be considered libertarian then...

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 13:10:54 2011 No.1662627 >>1662559 The home of Athenian democracy? Are you sure you don't mean Macedonia?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 13:27:54 2011 No.1662660 >>1662627 >Implying that the only form of government in ancient Greece was democracy

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 13:29:54 2011 No.1662668 >>1662660 >implying that means the rest were aristocracies No, they weren't

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 13:33:54 2011 No.1662674 >>1662668 I think he means Sparta, chiefly. Laconophile inbound

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 13:35:54 2011 No.1662679

there is nothing objective about objectivism.

FOR THE MOST PART both are extremists who won't admit that the government's hand is needed in some things. public safety. fda etc etc. not saying the agency is perfect but it's better than zero oversight.

selfish assholes

self-centered assholes

usually like talking to an idiot who is calling everyone else idiots. being oblivious to themselves.

they obviously have never read don quixote.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 14:54:54 2011 No.1662791 File: 39 KB, 500x387, 1298237618226.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1662679 >they obviously have never read don quixote.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 14:58:54 2011 No.1662801

>>1657881
>What they tell you
Government takes some of your income to make sure your food isn't rotten, your roads can be driven on safely, and the nation's children are educated
>What actually happens
Government takes some of your income to kill people on the other side of the globe and redistribute it to corporations who lobby hard enough

If you believe the first version you are an idiot that simply ignores the facts.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 15:42:54 2011 No.1662865 >>1662801 I suppose the market would be able to provide for same food, roads and universal education?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 16:05:54 2011 No.1662899 >>1662865 The market provides for what is necessary. Frivolous things like making every teenager read Shakespeare and do maths and inoculating infants against preventable disease have no place except in a government-program-influenced society.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 16:11:54 2011 No.1662907
File: 10 KB, 250x250, 1301342523007.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>1662899
you're retarded as fuck.

if people were only sold what was needed most people would be out of jobs. the point is to keep everyone working and the machine turning. most of the shit people own (myself included) is shit people don't need. creating a need for an unnecessary item, building it's value and selling that shit. it keeps everyone working, getting paid, and spending that money to funnel it's way back to the start so the economy can keep turning.

i'm saying this is what is most moral or best or whatever the fuck. but it keeps our economy strong(er), unfortunately, and it's the same in every developed country. welcome to adult world, little bro.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 16:15:54 2011 No.1662910 >>1662907 >i'm saying this is what is most moral or best i meant to say i'm NOT saying. but i get the feeling that i just replied to a troll. AH WELL NOW I'M THE FOOLIO BUT THATS COOLIO YO.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 16:16:54 2011 No.1662914

>>1662899

the market gives no fuck "what is necessary," it will produce what goods and services turn a profit

what do you think would happen in libertarian paradise (tm) in the case of something like the bp spill? there's no money to be made cleaning shit like that up, unless you charge the people whose gulf has been polluted, and that'd be fucked right up

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:00:54 2011 No.1663010 >>1662899 Are you seriously implying that if it wasn't for government people wouldn't vaccinate their children or educate them? Is this what leftists actually believe?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:06:54 2011 No.1663020 >>1663010 aww look at your naivete i could pinch your chubby little cheeks

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:10:54 2011 No.1663025 >>1662914 In the Libertarian Paradise (TM) there are property rights, i.e. people own shit. Whoever owns the water gets paid by BP for the damage.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:17:54 2011 No.1663033 >>1663010 >implying pharmaceutical companies wouldn't gouge their prices to maximize profits, even more than they already do. >implying education would be accessible to the poor.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:24:54 2011 No.1663041

>>1663033
>implying pharmaceutical companies wouldn't gouge their prices to maximize profits, even more than they already do.

I don't think you understand how intellectual property laws work...PROTIP: they're not a price ceiling.

>implying education would be accessible to the poor.

Why wouldn't it? University education is extremely expensive but poor people are given scholarships, financial aid from the university, etc. There is also always the ability to borrow the necessary funds, not to mention charity.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:34:54 2011 No.1663051 >>1663010 retarded fuck. >Is this what leftists actually believe? OH GAWD. again, you could be a clever as fuck troll. and if this is the case i bow to you, sir.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:42:54 2011 No.1663060

>>1663041
those things are in place to help off-set the bullshit. because schools in lower-income environments are already proven to do shittier. have lower attendence, and have far lower people who graduate.

are you implying scholarships and financial aid for GRADE SCHOOL? FOR CHILDREN???????

you are retarded AS FUCK OMG FOR FUCKING SERIOUS HOTDAMN. great. we'll let our youth rack up debt at an even earlier age. you're so retarded i'm fucking baffled here.

as soon as they get rid of no child left behind with bullshit standardized testing, and figure a better way to test teachers on competency (although many of our teachers are fine. some are idiots but most are fine).

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:46:54 2011 No.1663067 >>1663060 oops accidentally clicked submit. but there are ways to better public schools, and sadly it involves the reversing the changes we've had with the idiot g.w. bush and that idiot obama signed as well.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 17:48:54 2011 No.1663072 >but there are ways to better public schools Yes. That is undeniably true. That does not mean that they will ever be implemented. Read up on public choice theory and regulatory capture.

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 18:04:54 2011 No.1663102

>>1663072
>That does not mean that they will ever be implemented.

oh cool. /lit/ has it's own resident psychic.

a sign for progress in many developed countries was the implementation of public schools, and a mandatory attendance of them. i'll agree that public schools need to be rethought out. BUT privatizing grade schools is absurd and honestly irks me. then our schools interest will be in money-making and not in education. you'll say that the market will direct success on only the best schools. i say that is a possibility. but from my experience, whenever money enters the equation it's never good as far as education is concerned. prices for colleges rise faster than the inflation rate. high and higher degrees are needed to compete in an ever increasing market. in your world we could have special diplomas for only those who can afford it. not to mention that the average college kid graduates saddled with roughly 35-40k in debt from loans. better we prepare them for that by starting them earlier? if anything, my prediction is it could look nice at first, but in the long run people will pay high prices for a bullshit product. like they do with most things today. enterprise is providing a product for as cheap as you can make it, then is still socially acceptable, then turning that around and charging as much as what is socially acceptable. they do tests for pricing on all consumer goods for they're released. i think the market does direct pricing, but not as much as people think.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 18:16:54 2011 No.1663130 >>1663025 who enforces that? what would be in place to stop bp from just being all "don't care lol"

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 18:25:54 2011 No.1663159 File: 30 KB, 300x400, robertnozick.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw mentioning libertarianism or objectivism immediately conjures Rand. Go read the actual debate kids.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 21:32:54 2011 No.1663600 >>1663102 >>private education only focused on making money sounds like college

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 22:17:54 2011 No.1663742 >>1663600 Some kind of overarching body of you know, government?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 22:20:54 2011 No.1663755 >>1657854 Rand Paul raped a chick.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 22:27:54 2011 No.1663769 >>1657879 >totalitarian psychopath >practicing anarchist Just like Che was still a communist at the end, amirite?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 22:33:54 2011 No.1663782 >>1657881 >some try most bud.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 22:39:54 2011 No.1663812 Rand was a crackpot who worshiped a child killer/rapist. bitch.was.crazy

>>	OUTRAGEOUS Mon Mar 28 22:40:54 2011 No.1663814 I'm a libertarian (not a fan of Ayn Rand in the least) and the generalizations in this thread make me laugh. We're not all conservative nutjobs you know.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 22:45:54 2011 No.1663830 >>1663814 Seconded. Hey socialists, you mad about Wisconsin actually correcting their deficit by limiting special interest and unions?

>>	AnarchistSage !VoonmBZbSs Mon Mar 28 22:52:54 2011 No.1663851 I bet OP is a zeitgeister, central planning will never EVER work and even if it could it requires using force towards others to achieve its ends. just sayin

Anonymous Mon Mar 28 23:08:54 2011 No.1663900

>>1663830
Its not law. They're still pretending it is, but its not flying.

Aside from that, it was never about the budget. Walker created a deficit (Like a lot of freshmen Governors this term) in order to make a run on workers rights. Proof of that is the fact Walkers Senate striped the fiscal parts out to try and pass without their democratic counterparts. Its just about taking rights away.

Worse is happening in Michigan. Snyder signed something wholly unconstitutional into law.

>>1663814
Your post was followed by a generalization for all leftists. Relax

OUTRAGEOUS Mon Mar 28 23:18:54 2011 No.1663923

>>1663830
Haha I'm not in support of those actions personally. They're fucking over hard workers while people in bullshit government positions are getting six figures. Plus, I'm a teacher. The pinkslip BS going across the country for the education profession is ridiculous, our jobs suck enough without this shit on top of it. So many of us new teachers are ready to quit in the first five years... think it's 50% who stop the teaching career path in those first years.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 28 23:19:54 2011 No.1663924 >>1663830 more mad about the fact that walker came into office with a surplus and managed to blow through it in a few months to manufacture the "budget crisis," actually

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/lit/ - Literature