/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16576257]

is stoicism really toxic masculinity?

[Anonymous No.16576272]

Go back >>>/reddit/

[Anonymous No.16576305]

>>16576272
i dont take reddit that seriously, also sauce?

[Anonymous No.16576326]

go back

[Anonymous No.16576335]

>>16576257
>-19 le reddit downvotes
Reddit doesn't think so. So I guess it must be toxic

[Anonymous No.16576339]

That's broicism.

[Anonymous No.16576358]

>>16576257
No stoics are based, but none exist IRL.

[Anonymous No.16576409]

>>16576305
Go.
Back.

[Anonymous No.16576424]

>>16576272
>>16576409
>>>/a/
>>>/trash/

[Anonymous No.16576503]

>>16576424
>hates anime
You definitely have to get out, redditor

[Anonymous No.16576786]

>>16576503
>footfag
next you'll say 4chan is and always has been a foot fetishist forum

[Anonymous No.16576799]

>>16576786
I have a memory of posting in a foot thread on /b/ around 2006.

[Anonymous No.16576801]

>>16576257
as a mere end, stoicism was and always has been a basedboy philosophy so this shouldn't come as a surprise

[Anonymous No.16576819]

>>16576257
Toxic masculinity isn't real. Read what the stoics had to say.
Grow a pair of balls and get off the internet for a while.

[Anonymous No.16576821]

what is "toxic masculinity" even supposed to mean

[Anonymous No.16576837]

>>16576799
the faggot proudly recalls his extensive history of faggotry. holy fuck imagine admitting (with a sense of pride no less??!) that you've been on this fucking site since 2006

[Anonymous No.16576841]

>>16576821
It means "masculinity"

[Anonymous No.16576866]

>>16576837
Such a shame; I was going to regale you with my anecdotal experience of the rise of foot fetishism on the internet. Pearls before swine, etc.

[Anonymous No.16576893]

Stoicism may be an answer to some men not being able to handle their testosterone, which is what is pseudoacademically called ToXiC mAsCuLiNity.
The solution to toxic femininity is bath salts.

[Anonymous No.16576901]

>>16576257
No, because stoicism is gay and gays are not toxic.

[Anonymous No.16576969]

>>16576901
Stoicism is not gay as homosexuality is a purely hedonistic lifestyle choice.

[Anonymous No.16576996]

>>16576257
>r/Stoicism
pottery.

[Anonymous No.16577411]

>>16576257
Toxic masculinity is all about behaviors that result from caring way too much about being perceived as masculine and really overshooting it.

The way others perceive us is an external. Whether someone thinks I'm masculine or feminine is ultimately up to them, not to me. Since it's not within my will to control that, stoicism would have me totally ignore it, as something neither good nor bad.

Therefore no, stoicism is not toxic masculinity

[Anonymous No.16577416]

>>16576257
He’s right.

[Anonymous No.16577425]

say what you want, but evil_patriarch wiped the floor with taoman108 in that thread.

[Anonymous No.16577441]

>>16576257
Anything men enjoy or find comfort in is toxic masculinity

[Anonymous No.16577456]

>>16577411
>Toxic masculinity is all about behaviors that result from caring way too much about being perceived as masculine and really overshooting it.
No it's not. It simply means "masculinity." It's a political smear used to condemn all masculinity.

[Anonymous No.16577479]

>>16577456
This, even shit as harmless as barbequing or letting your son's rough-house is toxic apparently

[Anonymous No.16577532]

It's up!

[Anonymous No.16577692]

>>16576257
Are there actual stoics in real life? Holy cringe.

[Anonymous No.16577759]

>>16577456
>>16577479
No, they are two different things. If you don't understand the distinction between masculinity and toxic masculinity, it's either from a lack of effort or a lack of willingness to engage with the concept.

[Anonymous No.16577777]

>>16577759
Why don't you explain to us then?

[Anonymous No.16577791]

>>16577759
Lol no the thing that I've seen described as "toxic masculinity" are actually good thing. For example "mansplaining" i.e. explaining something to an ignorant woman. "manterrupting" i.e. speaking up when the ignorant woman also appears to be arrogant. "manspreading" i.e. sitting comfortably.

[Anonymous No.16577798]

>>16577759
The way I always understood it is that toxic masculinity is posturing at being masculine in order to mask insecurities, where as masculinity is just being masculine without thinking too hard about it.

Of course, the traits of toxic masculinity can be seen in a lot of people on this site, so it’s a difficult subject to talk about here.
If you’re trying to be masculine so you can be perceived by others as masculine, you’re missing the point.

[Anonymous No.16577800]

>>16577777
Nice digits. Toxic masculinity is the overperformance of masculine behaviors in a way that lacks social calibration. A classic example is explaining something at length without consideration for whether it's already understood by the other party, which is an overshooting of self-esteem, a core component of masculinity.

[Anonymous No.16577810]

>>16577759
Not who youre responding too but theyre right. Anyone who tries to act masculine is considered toxic masculinity so the only way to avoid toxic masculinity is to do things that are not masculine, so in effect all masculinity is toxic because you can't be masculine without doing masculine things

[Anonymous No.16577811]

>>16577798
>trying to be masculine so you can be perceived by others as masculine
Yes, that's more or less it.

[Anonymous No.16577820]

>>16577810
>Anyone who tries to act masculine is considered toxic masculinity
That is not true. I doubt I even have to cite examples as you must be perfectly aware that genuinely masculine men are not accused of toxicity by women, who find them attractive. Toxic masculinity is a specific and different thing.

[Anonymous No.16577837]

>>16577798
This is retarded because everyday masculine traits are intellectualized ala >>16577791 to the point that I now have to think about and justify every masculinr thing id otherwise do mindlessly. Its a kafka trap, if I address youre attacks on my masculinity you call me toxic for "thinking too hard about it" and if i don't address youre attacks then you have free reign over the entire conception of masculinity and you'll just continue attacking me.

[Anonymous No.16577848]

>>16577798
This makes absolutely no sense. Since if "masculinity" is a neutral or good attribute to have or display, then posturing as masculine would absolutely not be "toxic" or whatever term woke people use. So if toxic masculinity by this definition is bad then masculinity is itself bad.

[Anonymous No.16577855]

>>16577820
You keep saying "I dont even have to address your argument". Yeah you do you stupid faggot, explain the difference or fuck off

[Anonymous No.16577863]

>>16577800
>overperformance of masculine behaviours
I don't know what this means, can you give another example?
>lacks social calibration
You mean it breaks social norms? Social norms are constantly changing, more so now than ever before, it's impossible to keep up and so it's an unreliable source of justification for whether something is good or bad.
>without consideration for whether it's already understood
But this is a necessary action to ensure any group or team is on the same page. It's basic management. When a manager talks about plays and tactics to the team at half time, the players obviously already know everything that's happened and what the plan is going forward, but the manager needs to reinforce and remind everyone of the plan incase someone has had something slip their mind or gone beneath their notice. If you ran a business and were too polite not to explain the situation to your team incase you came across as condescending, you wouldn't be running a business for very long. This, to me, seem a very feminine trait, to take personal offence when someone tells you something you already know as if they're calling you stupid. When my boss goes on a tangent about the work that needs done for the day I listen to him and then casually respond with "yeah no problem". I already knew everything, he's 99% sure that I already knew, but he needs to be 100% sure we're on the same page so that things can run properly without needless mistakes

[Anonymous No.16577888]

>>16577811
So its "toxic" to want to be perceived as masculine?

[Anonymous No.16577894]

>>16577855
I have.
>>16577800
This would be the "lack of effort" that I brought up previously— you don't understand toxic masculinity because you won't even read a post explaining it.

>>16577863
Think about any kind of masculine characteristic - dominance, self-esteem, charm, responsibility. The man who exhibits toxic masculinity is overly-concerned with appearing to have these characteristics, and it causes him to "try hard" to demonstrate them. Social calibration is the means by which we learn the degree to exhibit different behaviors. Too little masculinity, and we appear feminized or weak. Just the right masculinity, and we appear as men. Well, what is it when we show too much masculinity, when we go too hard at it? You don't think there's a phrase that might capture this extreme...?

[Anonymous No.16577911]

>>16577894
>we
why are you pretending to be a man you dumbass roastie. you're making so many assumptions it's actually insane. charm, responsibility, self-esteem as masculine? these are basic human qualities that anyone can have

[Anonymous No.16577929]

>>16577894
Yes so youre setting a limit on how masculine you think men should be allowed to be, a limit that is continuously pushed farther and farther as new terms like "mansplaining" and "manspreading" are invented and popularized in order to make traditionally madculine behaviors socially acceptable. Youre judt confirming the idea that toxic masculinity is just an attack on masculinity as a whole.

[Anonymous No.16577937]

>>16577894
That's not toxic masculinity, you've just described overcompensation borne of insecurity, you don't need to make up a special term for it. Why do you have to make it about masculinity specifically? Why does no one ever talk about toxic feminity?

[Anonymous No.16577940]

Everyone in this thread needs to read this book

[Anonymous No.16577943]

>>16577929
*make traditionally masculine behaviors socially unacceptable

[Anonymous No.16577962]

>>16576409
I've jacked it to this guy's art a bunch of times, he's really good.

[Anonymous No.16577978]

Suppressing emotions, using reason and living according to nature is for misogynists

[Anonymous No.16577990]

>>16577937
because it's a motet and bailey rhetorical technique to demean something.

[Anonymous No.16578007]

>>16577911
I'm a man, like 90% of this board outside of butters. Come back when you have more of an argument than a meltdown.

>>16577929
I'm not setting the limit, the limit is an emergent property of social interactions. This goes for every moral virtue, by the way. Courage and temperance are also comfortable means between extremes either of which would be detrimental. Have you read the Greeks?

>>16577937
When someone cares too much for his own life, we call him cowardly. When he cares too much for money, we call him greedy. When he cares too much for appearing masculine, guess what? There's a specific term for that now.

As for toxic femininity, yes, of course it exists. Did you assume I would deny this? Why did you assume that?

[Anonymous No.16578027]

hegel buried these retard ideologies over 200 years ago
at least argue over something new

[Anonymous No.16578054]

>>16577962
I'm only interested in that one pic but glad you like it anon

[Anonymous No.16578069]

The stoics were very patriarchal and understood hierarchies and were often very explicit about it. Like the left in general, anything Reddit touches will be twisted and corrupted by people working for their own ends. They do not care about the truth.

[Anonymous No.16578095]

>>16578007
>invent terms to negatively portray previously innocuous behavior
>"HURRRRR IM A RETARD DURRRR THE ARBITRARY BEHAVIOR THAT I PERSONALLY SAY IS BAD IS EMERGENT BECAUSE I SAY IT IS DURRRR DID U EVEN REED DA GWEEKS DURRRR IM A RETARD
Wanna try again?

[Anonymous No.16578103]

>>16578007
Ok, and how can you tell the difference between someone who cares too much about appearing masculine, and someone who is naturally very masculine? When a man refuses to defend his fellows in their time of need it is apparent that he is a coward. When a man dedicates a great deal of him own time and effort to acquiring money, but never uses it to help his fellows, it is apparent that he is greedy.
When I see a man who behaves in a very masculine way, there is no clear way of knowing whether he is pretending or whether he is genuine, only an impression that I've formed based of prejudice, nothing more than a feeling, can tell me whether he is being false in his habits, or whether they're really just his nature

[Anonymous No.16578134]

>>16577990
Never heard of this fallacy before, it is actually very common too. Thanks mate

[Anonymous No.16578153]

>>16578007
>Why did you assume that?
not OP but one doesn't even have a wikipedia page, while the other is listed under wikis feminism. Toxic masculinity is cultural masculinity that women believe is detrimental to women.

[Anonymous No.16578206]

>>16578007
>I'm not setting the limit, the limit is an emergent property of social interactions.
You're sitting here arguing againdt 3 or 4 people that your particular interpretation of the limit is wrong. The emergent property of this social interaction is that you're wrong.

[Anonymous No.16578221]

>>16578206
Kek

[Anonymous No.16578416]

Stoicism /is/ toxic masculinity. No matter how good you are at maintaining a stoic attitude in life, you're still essentially signing a 'contract from below' that compromises your emotional health. Being reflective and non-reactive in trying moments almost always relies on some measure of outright suppression in emotional affect

The typical modern stoic is satiated by a subtle form of Lacanian 'surplus enjoyment' -- by displaying no outward emotion in social tableau, as a contrast to what he considers the wanton emotionality of the other (weaker & more immature) humans, he cultivates a vain sense of secular piety based on his ability to "beat" others at the perennial game of suffering in silence. In indulging this small vanity -- even minutely, in a way that isn't explicitly 'felt' by the body -- he negates the very principle of ethical constancy upon which his attitude rests.

In essence, the stoic 'congratulates' himself on his complete rejection/abnegation of the emotional realities in his life. He makes himself believe that, because he no longer /feels/ his reactive drives as acutely as others, he is no longer guided by them. In using stoicism as a rebellious/transgressive 'reaction' to his [liberal humanist] culture's treatment of emotion, and in imposing this dubious 'virtue' on others (by example and/or by inherently normalizing dialogue concerning his worldview) -- typically other men of the same cohort and social profile -- the stoic becomes guilty of toxic masculinity.

[Anonymous No.16578427]

>>16578416
Exactly, stoicism is toxic masculinity because all masculinity is toxic.

[Anonymous No.16578461]

>letting women define your sense of being a man
not gonna make it

[Anonymous No.16578467]

>>16578461
If you disagree with the existence of toxic masculinity you suffer from toxic masculinity.

[Anonymous No.16578490]

>>16578416
this is such a brainlet take and written in such pompous academic pseudspeak that i almost wonder if this post might be totally sincere and not really bait after all

[Anonymous No.16578496]

>>16578467
In more sensible days they were called either brutes or cowards, but let's just throw the whole lot into one bucket of bland indistinction, as our brainless generation is wont to do.

[Anonymous No.16578521]

>>16578416
Only if you're using stoicism as a front for your narcissism. A practising Stoic shouldn't feel superior to others because of his self-control, he should wish to use his new ability to help other people who wish to be helped, and to reason when such help would be wasted or detrimental, and withhold it. If you feel superior to others you have failed at your practice of stoicism

[Anonymous No.16578526]

>>16578496
Well yes, all male-identifying men suffer from toxic masculinity

[Anonymous No.16578653]

>>16577937
Basically this. Toxicity will manifest differently in males from females. In both cases the source are things such insecurities. So the new terminology is useless.

[Anonymous No.16578683]

>>16577777
>>16577800
> nice digits

No topic is too heated to pay respects to some sick fucking digits

[Anonymous No.16578783]

>>16578416
>Lol in an outrage culture its toxic to remember what you cant control and not stress over it
>Lol in an outrage culture its toxic to remember that emotions can be addictive and so need to be maintained
>Lol in an outrage culture its toxic to not be a selfish, self-absorbed, reactionary consumer

Western culture is undergoing another agricultural revolution, but this time the crops and livestock will be people. Going beyond your own succumbing to animal behaviors and condemning those who know it leads to destruction is only going to brand you as a commodity.
Laugh at me now, but just you wait for the day you're children accept sponsorship from Pepsi so your grandchildren can afford college because "That's the way it is now, don't be so old-fashioned"

[Anonymous No.16578977]

>>16578416
complete misunderstanding of stoicism, read more

[Anonymous No.16579038]

>>16576837
>>16576503
>>16576409
>>16576272
Stop caring about genital stimulation.

[Anonymous No.16579055]

>>16578977
i think it's more likely that hes a dishonest (you) seeker impersonating a leftist intellekshtual desu
still gave me diabetes to read all that

[Anonymous No.16579163]

>>16577777
Ive always thought toxic masculinity was roid ragers and gym bros flexing everywhere and trying to intimidate people with their stature. Using your masculinity as a gross extension of your personality.

[Anonymous No.16579185]

>>16577777
amazing digits squandered on a terrible thread

[Anonymous No.16579196]

>>16576257

stoicism is like the bastardized form of cynicism for someone didn't want to do what diogenes did
the founder of stoicism was a rich fuck who didn't want to give up his wealth

[Anonymous No.16579213]

>>16579196

stoicism was a *

[Anonymous No.16579243]

>>16579196
But then he got shipwrecked and barely survived, thus developing the complexion of the corpse per the prophecy. He then went on to develop and reach stoicism.

> don't worry I finished your history lesson for you

[Anonymous No.16579262]

>>16576969
>stoicism is not gay
yes, yes it very much is

[Anonymous No.16579722]

>>16576257
ANYTHING that spites women makes me happier.

[Anonymous No.16579731]

>>16576272
>tranime
ewww

[Anonymous No.16579752]

>>16577800
>explaining something at length
lmao I thought you would say like 'beating people up' or something.

[Anonymous No.16579762]

>>16576901
>>16576801
Neetch was gay and died from gay cancer.

[Anonymous No.16579817]

>>16576821
Men existing.

[Anonymous No.16579945]

People's hatred of stoicism reminds me of people's hatred towards JBP during his prime
It's so milquetoast and inoffensive, and the people who adopt it are just trying to do some self-improvement, yet it attracts hordes and hordes of people who want to destroy it for no real reason

[Anonymous No.16579957]

>>16579752
In some contexts that would fit, and I bet it happens a lot more in nonwhite social groups. But of course there are also non-toxic instances of beating people up.

[Anonymous No.16580010]

>>16579957
Asians beat each other up a lot less than whites, and some white groups are pretty violent. What makes it toxic or not anyway?

[Anonymous No.16580071]

>>16580010
If you beat up a mugger or a home invader or something like that, it's not toxic behavior, because it does no harm to you or to society. But if you constantly get in fights that you provoke in some effort to demonstrate your masculinity, that's toxic behavior because it hurts you and society both.

[Anonymous No.16580129]

>>16580071
What if you get in fights not because you want to demonstrate your masculinity but because you like hurting or dominating people?

[Anonymous No.16580145]

>>16580129
Okay Yujiro Hanma.

[Anonymous No.16580158]

>>16580145
I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about that sort of person

[Anonymous No.16580205]

toxic masculinity is hate speech

[Anonymous No.16580393]

>>16577777
the post that destroyed all pseuds forever

[Anonymous No.16580430]

>>16579731

[Anonymous No.16580856]

>>16577848
The keyword is "trying". It's the same thing in essence as someone trying to be cool vs someone actually being cool. You don't just put on a leather jacket and automatically become the Fonz, there's more depth to it than that. There's maturity and tact and a certain amount of self awareness that goes into it. Of course there will always be the types that pounce on and decry any showing, in whatever manner, of a particular trait, but they're immaterial. If you're really cool/masculine/whatever, then it is irrelevant what you are confronted with as you will be able to deal with it accordingly.

[Anonymous No.16580874]

>>16577888
Just to overshoot it, because when you overcompensate, you end up doing things that hurt yourself and others.

Masculinity is a virtue. It exists between two extremes. Everyone knows that being not-masculine-enough is a problem, we call these kinds of men "weak," "no balls," "incel" etc. Well, why are you surprised that there is an opposite extreme?

[Anonymous No.16580878]

>>16580856
Then toxic is not a great word, since you have many men who genuinely are extremely masculine and do 'toxic' stuff. What you're describing is affected or compensatory masculinity.

[Anonymous No.16580984]

>>16580878
I agree, it's a crap term. I can understand the line of thinking behind it; there are expressions of masculinity that are "toxic" e.g. men that pick fights or are just violent unnecessarily, but overall it seems like an oversimplification of a much more nuanced issue.

[Anonymous No.16581072]

>>16580856
you're a good man anon. don't let this site jade you if it can be helped

[Anonymous No.16581385]

>>16576821
I was an engineerfag in collage so I didn't even know this word existed until the professor in the Greek mythology class I was taking used it. He said that Hector from the Iliad was a "perfect example of toxic masculinity" because he decided to charge out and face the Greeks head on for manly honor rather than being sneaky and trying to flank around them. The professor argued that his actions were guided by man culture and resulted in his death, the destruction of his city, and the capturing of his family.

[Anonymous No.16581395]

>>16576257
Stoicism can apply to anyone regardless of gender. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to sell you something.

[Anonymous No.16581419]

>>16581385
Ok but those actions aren't stoic in nature. Itd be stoic if he didn't have the choice to flank them and didn't become a nervous wreck stressing about facing them head on because he couldn't control it

[Anonymous No.16581469]

>>16577800
It seems a bit pedantic to refer to this behaviour as 'toxic', which would give the impression of something like Chernobyl. It might be compensation, or just enthusiasm. Also, have you thought about how the audience changes over time, and that both parties need to do their part? I notice that many people who might complain about toxic masculinity are also quick to excite when a popular franchise makes compromises to cater to their interests, but seem to be reluctant to change their minds, why is this? Of course, I only offer this generalization as a question because toxic masculinity is obviously a buzzword that no one with any integrity would use to discuss any phenomenon.

[Anonymous No.16581484]

>>16576272
Based anime poster buttblasting redditards

[Anonymous No.16581514]

>>16578007
>I'm a man
Post benis

[Anonymous No.16581542]

>>16576257
If you know who Yujiro Hanma is, he is the definition of toxic masculinity and no one can stop him. He is beautiful.

[Anonymous No.16581556]

>>16577820
>Positive masculinity is what women find attractive
>Toxic masculinity is what woman find unattractive
It's funny but I am in 100% agreement with you.
Men should stop letting a bunch of feminist harpies define what masculinity is and isn't. Can you imagine feminism as a movement being shaped by men dictating to women what aspects of their self-expression are attractive and what aspects are "bitchy" or "toxic femininity"?
Stop engaging with these discourses altogether. Use violence if needed. This ideology being pushed down people's throats is pure evil and it wants to destroy you and everything you care about.

[Anonymous No.16581566]

>>16577820
Women are attracted to fucking serial killers and criminals, is that not 'toxic' lol

[Anonymous No.16581574]

>>16581566
Women are attracted to masculinity. Toxic masculinity is a type of masculinity.

[Anonymous No.16581576]

>>16577894
>"try hard"
>>16577798
>toxic masculinity is posturing at being masculine
>>16578007
>the limit is an emergent property of social interactions
This is literally just you and your small clique of faggot friends defining who's "cool" and who's "lame", and presenting it as political discourse in order to justify being a bunch of shit eating bullies.

[Anonymous No.16581577]

>>16577820
Kek fucking Nicholas cruz, goblino looking guy that he is got more bitches thirsting after him than I do because he shot up a highschool and I didn't

[Anonymous No.16581788]

>>16576503
truly horrific anatomy work there.

[Anonymous No.16581795]

>>16581385
how does one grow so disconnected from the concept of honor?

[Anonymous No.16582115]

>>16581795
The professor must obviously be a marxist and can't grasp the point of transcendent ideals like virtue and honor.

[Anonymous No.16582146]

>>16576257
>stoicism
religion of the cuck is toxic masculinity? kek

[Anonymous No.16582161]

>>16576257
why is it "toxic"?

[Anonymous No.16582190]

>>16576969

[Anonymous No.16582504]

>>16576503
this is the reason anime feet are shit.
they either have awful anatomy, or they're just rotoscoped photos. Exception is that one guy that got to make "Miru tightsu", but thtat's literally just one guy in a thousand.