/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16575774]

Stop worshipping semitic desert demons.

[Anonymous No.16575779]

platon already btfo silly pagans and set precedent for christianity and islam

[Anonymous No.16575789]

>>16575779
Yes, philosophy was a retarded midwit sedition. Socrates was the proto-redditor.

[Anonymous No.16575797]

>>16575774
Is the alternative worshipping some lightning god or something?

[Anonymous No.16575811]

This book literally proves that paganism is a joke you dumb fuck.

[Anonymous No.16575814]

>>16575797
Is it?

[Anonymous No.16575818]

>>16575811
But I must add that it's one of the best books I have ever read.

[Anonymous No.16575821]

>>16575797
"Worship" as we know it in Abrahamic religions does not exist in Indo-European branches of paganism.
You venerate your ancestors the gods, walk shoulder to shoulder with them.

[Anonymous No.16575823]

>>16575811
How so? I refuse to read meme-books until someone actually explains them to me.

[Anonymous No.16575830]

>>16575821
*Ancestors and the gods

[Anonymous No.16575847]

>>16575821
Nigger, what?

[Anonymous No.16575857]

>>16575823
The Ancient City explains how Greek and Roman societies were formed, though an archaic patriarchal religion. Families then formed tribes, which later formed cities. The book ends with explaining how a series of revolution changed the societies.
It shows that paganism is a joke because paganism started as a worship of the ancestors, then a few meme-gods were added when people forgot what their religion was about.

[Anonymous No.16575867]

>>16575821
yes, that is why there is not a single worth indo-european religion. it is tribalistic and primitive, no intellectual or theopoetical production whatsoever. what is the difference between sub saharan african forms of worship and indo european ones?

[Anonymous No.16575883]

>>16575857
Not him but you literally didn't understand what the book was about. Did you just read a synopsis or something?

[Anonymous No.16575887]

>>16575867
>indo-european religions didn't have theology until the semites graced us with their divine knowledge

When will this meme die?

[Anonymous No.16575892]

>>16575883
I read it twice in French.

[Anonymous No.16575909]

>>16575857
Well given that we know that this is not how pre-Christian European religions operated, we're only left with two possibilities:
>You have no idea what you're talking about and completely misunderstood the book; you are a joke.
>The book has no idea what it's talking about; the book is a joke.
So, either way, I don't see how this book reflects poorly on the Greeks and Romans.

>>16575883
Would you care to clarify?

[Anonymous No.16575922]

>>16575887
>until
they never had. not only semites (and by this term i hope you understand what it means, that is, comprehends other med/near eastern ethnicities) had theology or theopoetical productions but other people too.
in any case, cite anything from these indo european ''religions''

[Anonymous No.16575928]

>>16575821
amerimutt hand typed this post.

[Anonymous No.16575936]

>>16575909
what is an european religion? greek? what is greek religion? its mythopoesis influenced by egyptians and other med and near-eastern mythopoeses? roman ''religion'' that was basically degenerate greek religion?

[Anonymous No.16575947]

>>16575936
Not really. At all, in fact. It's pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about. If you want a book on this subject, Archaic Roman Religion, by Georges Dumezil, and Greek Religion, by Burkert, are both good starters. Follow that up with The House of Hades.

tl;dr No, Greek Polytheism was not just a copy of Egyptian polytheism, and Roman polytheism was not just a copy of Greek polytheism. They were three separate things with their own complex theologies.

[Anonymous No.16575995]

>>16575883
>you literally didn't understand what the book was about
Tell me what it was about then.

[Anonymous No.16576015]

>>16575922
>europeans didn't have theology or philosophy until jews gave it to them
And Jews got philosophy and theology from the Persians, who are Indo-European. So, not only are you wrong about Europeans not having theology, but by your own argument, Indo-Europeans did actually have theology and philosophy.

[Anonymous No.16576016]

>>16575947
nice thank you for the recommendations.
but no religion is an autonomous independent monolith, greek religion specially got a lot from egyptians and other near eastern ones. this is obvious but seeing that everything you say is not grounded on genuine intellectual pursuit but on a personal political bias, i can recommend you some books:
M. L. West's The East Face of Helicon
anything from Algis Uzdavinys
anything from Thomas Taylor
anything from Plato
Iamblichus's De Mysteriis
Walter Burkert's Greek Religion

[Anonymous No.16576017]

I worship the sun as it’s the closest thing to an actual god we have. Ancient sun worshipers were right, without the sun we have nothing; no light, no warmth, no life.

[Anonymous No.16576052]

>>16576015
>And Jews got philosophy and theology from the Persians
explain please because no, the basic conceptions of a lot we find in zoroastrianism and similarly in hebrew and christian theologies were already established in egyptian one
also why is persia indo-european?

[Anonymous No.16576060]

>>16576016
You're factually wrong.

Your problem is that you're looking at this from a modern academic and hyper-materialist point of view. You see philosophy and theology as neat tidy little things that just pop into peoples heads one day fully formed. People don't spend time thinking things over, it's just a neat little package. That is, of course, not how things work, as Plato will happily show you. You think that intellectual activity is just a game to be played, and no one actually believes any of this. This too, is factually wrong.

You've read nothing on this, and it shows. Not only does Plato himself dismantle your entire argument (he actually does it twice, explicitly and in his very method), but the fact that you're citing Burkert as evidence that Greek Religion is just a copy of Egyptian religion demonstrates that you've never read any of these texts. If you had, you'd know Burkert spends the book at length debunking the claim that Greek Religion was just a copy of Egyptian religion.

[Anonymous No.16576066]

>>16576016
you haven't read burkert lmfao

[Anonymous No.16576079]

>>16575922
1. the greeks and they alone alone had a set of myths and rituals on one side, and rational philosophy on the other side.
2. judaism is an hellenistic product. the most ancient edition (not manuscript) tracks back to 500-300BC. previously, that the jews had a vague, confused mix of beliefs:
3. part of which were just mesopotamian myths and plain political propaganda, while the circulating theological clues were transmitted by the contact with zoroastrianism, which is the first ethically grounded and monotheist religion.

[Anonymous No.16576090]

>>16576079
>edition
edition of the torah of course

[Anonymous No.16576093]

>>16576052
No, it isn't. You have no idea what you're talking about and are literally just regurgitating memes.
>also why is persia indo-european?
lol

>>16576060
This is why all those "start with the Greeks" charts have Hamilton and other "Greeks 101" books: because people just dive right in and completely miss the context these people live in. They don't even read Plato. The morons that spout this garbage are the same ones that say that Heraclitus was secretly a Platonist.

[Anonymous No.16576104]

>>16575779
>plato the devout polytheist btfo polytheists
Christian copes are the best copes.

[Anonymous No.16576121]

>>16576079
4. almost forgot to say that the indian brahmana and the upanishads are pure theology, of a complexity that judaism never reached (but christianity did, with the scholastics)

[Anonymous No.16576125]

Semites got all of their “smart” ideas from Sumerians, who weren’t Semites. Btfo forever

[Anonymous No.16576142]

>>16575779
>conflating the rational God of philosophers with the personal human god of crypto-jew cults

[Anonymous No.16576171]

>>16576052
>also why is persia indo-european?
what exactly do you think "indo-european" means? what exactly do you think "semite" means?

please, tell us, because it's pretty clear that whatever you think those terms mean, they aren't what they actually mean.

[Anonymous No.16576175]

>>16576017
Based

[Anonymous No.16576186]

>>16576104
Yeah, this whole line about how Plato was a good Muslim who prayed towards Mecca five times a day and spoke perfect Classical Arabic is just on its face absurd. Ignoring the idea of him being a practitioner of a religion that wouldn't be founded until centuries after his death, and all the references to the Olympians in his works, we know for a fact that he partook in Pagan religious rituals and ceremonies (the Isthmian Games). If it were just to Zeus, we could do the
>w-well b-by Zeus he ACKSHUYUALLY mean ALLAH!
cope, but the rituals he engaged in were to fucking Poseidon

[Anonymous No.16576187]

>>16576142
>he thinks religion isn’t grounded in world philosophy
get a load of this gooba

[Anonymous No.16576203]

>>16576171
you are wrong too, not just him. the persians in 1200BCE, when the first gathas were written, were white europeans.

[Anonymous No.16576232]

>>16576203
varg pls go and stay go

[Anonymous No.16576233]

this thread began well but has turned into pure autism

[Anonymous No.16576246]

>>16576186
You're a fucking idiot. Smarten up or stay the fuck off my board.

[Anonymous No.16576251]

>>16576246
Sounds like COPE to me.

[Anonymous No.16576276]

>>16576251
I'm sorry. What I meant was to label you as fool not idiot but now I see that I was correct and you are both of those things.

[Anonymous No.16576284]

>>16576232
the original indoeuropean speakers were one people or set of tribes spreaded from scythia and eastern europe between 2500 and 1500 BCE.

[Anonymous No.16576327]

>>16576052
>why is persia indo-european
this is who is arguing with you about indo-europeans on lit.

[Anonymous No.16576330]

>>16575789
>Socrates was the proto-redditor
If your traditionalist philosophy includes getting rid of Plato and Socrates, you are just playing an impossible game

[Anonymous No.16576418]

>>16575779
>>16575789
Nietzsche was a mistake.

[Anonymous No.16576430]

>>16576060
are you actually mentally handicapped? can you understand what you read? i am literally saying that there is no, as i said before, autonomous independent monolithic theology/metaphysics and that the greek one for example was heavily influenced by foreign, med-/eastern ones and that it obviously was not like in modern ''philosophy'' but shaped and formed civilizations influenced.

>Not only does Plato himself dismantle your entire argument.
what argument? that greeks are in debt to a lot of older traditions like the egyptians, phoenicians, telestic cults he cites all the time in his dialogues? i don't even know what you are referring to as my argument though.

>copy of egyptian religion
retard. LEARN HOW TO READ. i said it was not a copy not in the way that roman one was theopoetically a copy of greek one but that it was HEAVILY influenced by it, the mysteries and orphic theology being influenced deeply by it and therefore echoing in more external aspects of the greek religion.

>Burkert
my citing him was to show you the influences from eastern religions in the greek one.

now how about you start educating yourself and read the other authors, literally PLATONISTS, about greek religion?

>>16576093
is egyptian theology a meme? will you simply discard the ideas predating in it because you don't care about truth?

[Anonymous No.16576442]

>>16576327
>>16576171
i just want to understand how persia as an ''indo-european'' civilization had no influence from literally the myriad of eastern religions that predated it and were geographically around it.

[Anonymous No.16576470]

>>16576442
it's because the term "Indo-European" is arbitrary and to any such thing as "Indo-European Civilization" is just some made up bullshit.

[Anonymous No.16576642]

>>16576470
>Indo-European is arbitrary
u wot

[Anonymous No.16576655]

>>16576430
This was already answered, see >>16576060.

[Anonymous No.16576680]

>>16576430
Start with Lysis.

[Anonymous No.16576695]

>>16576655
what did you answer in my reply to the very post you're quoting? literally impossible to have an honest discussion with people like you, go back to pol you animal

[Anonymous No.16576737]

>>16576695
See >>16575947.

[Anonymous No.16576753]

>>16576079
>1.
yes, and both of these were influenced by prior traditions and civilizations, if you can't see this in philosophy you don't know what pihlosophy is and has never read plato

>2.
Yehud judaism predates its hellenistic phase and older hebrew in its levantine period predates even more these. so you either don't know what you're talking about or you are just dishonest to distort things this way to fit something factually false to prove your point which, consequently, is false.

>3.
yes, hebrew tradition was influenced by other semitic, med-near-eastern civilizations! you're very smart. but sadly it has nothing to do with our discussion.

>>16576121
>4.
this has nothing to do with indo-european religion.

[Anonymous No.16576760]

>>16576737
>he has nothing to say so he keeps quoting the posts already replied by me
try reading books now, anon

[Anonymous No.16576776]

>>16576760
>do you seriously expect me to have a basic familiarity with this topic before having an opinion on it?
Yes. Go read a book. I have provided you with several.

[Anonymous No.16576794]

>>16576753
So, given that you believe that the Greeks were just stealing from the Egyptians, that the Egyptians were just stealing from the Jews, who were in turn just stealing from the Zoroastrians, where did the Zoroastrians get it from? Did Zoroaster retroactively refute Plato?

It's pretty clear that you've never done any reading on this, given that you cited a guy whose entire academic career was devoted to BTFOing your position here, so I'm just trying to figure out what exactly it is that you believe.

[Anonymous No.16576798]

>>16576776
>several
only two. and one of them you haven't even read since it arguments in favor of what i have been saying in this thread and the other one, well, it seems you haven't read it too because i am still waiting for you to tell me what intellectual (theological, metaphysical) production did indo-european and roman ''religions'' had

[Anonymous No.16576828]

>>16576794
you don't know how to read. i think you are the same anon to which i was replying before because that person didn't know how to interpret the things i was saying.
seriously are you esl?
i never claimed the egyptians got their things from the jews, this is chronologically impossible but obviously you are uneducated and can't even into basic history.
isn't it obvious that zoroastrians got a lot from sumerians, akkadian and other eastern myths, theologies?

[Anonymous No.16576845]

>>16576798
huh?

[Anonymous No.16576852]

>>16576104
Christians believe that Jesus went to hell and converted all Pagan philosophers to Christianity. They call this "The Harrowing of Hell". A bogus passage was added to the Bible to justify this invented doctrine, the church has since acknowledged the tampering and removed the addition. Christians continue to believe in this concept regardless. Christians do not realise that this passage is contradicted by a passage from the Bible wherein Jesus claims that one of his fellow crucifixion victims will die at the same time as him and accompany him to Heaven. Christians are very good at ignoring things.

[Anonymous No.16576862]

>>16576203
They were brown indoeuropeans, Varg. Not blonde

[Anonymous No.16576863]

>>16576798
Dumezil spends the entirety of Archaic Roman Religion arguing against the idea that the Roman Religion was stolen from the Greeks (there is certainly Hellenization, but that is a later product). Dumezil's entire career was spent establishing that "Indo-European" even existed, in the face of morons like you who argue that everything was actually created by the Jews or whatever schizobabble you believe.

Burkert spends the entirety of Greek Religion arguing against the idea that Greek Religion was stolen from the Egyptians (with all Greco-Egyptian syncreticism being the introduction of Greek Religion to the Egyptians, see Hermes Trismegistus and Serapis). As you earlier admitted, you haven't read this text.

The House of Hades spends the entire book demonstrating various beliefs in the afterlife and demonstrating that they do not have any Egyptian or oriental character, and are entirely Indo-European in origin.

As for
>what intellectual (theological, metaphysical) production did indo-european and roman ''religions'' had
You're going to have to clarify what that means. Do you mean "a metaphysical system"? Yes, the Greeks and Romans both had that, independent of each other. Do you mean "a religious complex"? Yes, they both had that. Eschatology (to use the House of Hades' terminology), and beliefs in the afterlife that existed independent of other religious systems? Yes, the both had that, independent of each other. Ethical systems? Yes. Aesthetic systems? Yes. Complex theological hierarchies? Yes. What do they have to LACK in order to not have "theological, metaphysical production"? A guy sitting down and coming up with the entire thing in one sitting? No religion has that.

[Anonymous No.16576870]

>>16576828
You've spent the entire thread arguing just that: >>16576430, >>16576753, >>16576798, and >>16576828. So, given that you believe that all of history is just a series of civilizations stealing each other's works and that it all goes back to one single source (which is on its face absurd because the Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic urheimat's are on entirely different continents), I want to know who that first source is. Where did the Akkadians get their stuff from? The Sumerians? Where did they get it from?

[Anonymous No.16576878]

>>16576753
>yes, and both of these were influenced by prior traditions and civilizations, if you can't see this in philosophy you don't know what pihlosophy is and has never read plato
no. there was no philosophy in asia before the expansion of the greek thought in the arab world. only half exception would be the early indian philosophy which is , guess what, indoeuropean.
> Yehud judaism predates its hellenistic phase and older hebrew in its levantine period predates even more these
next what? moses was raised by the dughter of the pharaoh and the jews were salves in egypt from where they escaped through the red sea? the jews were a set of sparse tribes which formed the first somewhat juridical associations in the 9th century BC. they were enslaved and partially deported by the assyrians and the babylonians in the 7th century. they came back in palestine after the 6th century, that is with the formation of the achaemenid empire.
there they mixed local myths and zoroastrian theology (indoeuropean). the torah is a 500-300BC text.
> this has nothing to do with indo-european religion.
the vedic people were indoeuropean.

[Anonymous No.16576890]

>>16576878
one more thing. you seem to think the egyptians were semitic. well, they weren't , retard.

[Anonymous No.16576902]

>>16576890
given that he's arguing that the jews had some kind of primordial tradition that everyone else just stole, he might be using "semitic" to refer to the whole "son of shem" thing, in which case he is correctly, albeit archaically.

his broader point is still fucking retarded, though.

[Anonymous No.16576908]

>>16576642
Yes. There's no such thing as a coherent Indo-European tradition, culture, religion, common language, or anything for that matter. The distinction of Indo-European is therefore arbitrary and may I add purely trivial.

[Anonymous No.16576912]

>>16576104
>Plato
>Polytheist
niggaaaaa pleasse

[Anonymous No.16576913]

>>16576908
Well, then you're just flat out wrong.

[Anonymous No.16576926]

>>16576863
>there is certainly Hellenization, but that is a later product
the very product establishing and giving cohesion to the whole roman religion, lol.

>everything was actually created by the Jews
why be dishonest to this point? i'm arguing for fundamental influences from egyptians and the myriad of other med-near-eastern civilizations all of which predated roman and greek ones.

>indo-european
go on to explain anything related to this, because, since you read dumezil i think you can give me a summary

>your idea that greek religion was stolen from egyptians
not in entirety, and it is a crass way of putting it. egyptian science, theology, myth, liturgy were all profound influences on the greek world, together with those of other traditions and even local minoan, mycenean ones.

>Greco-Egyptian syncreticism being the introduction of Greek Religion to the Egyptians, see Hermes Trismegistus and Serapis
lmao, does he really argue something like this? hermes was a Common Era syncretic fabrication. Why is he ignoring all productions of egyptians predating by MILLENIA this syncretism which happened only with ptolemaic kingdom? by this time egypt had lost a lot of what it was in 5000-1000 BC.

[Anonymous No.16576935]

>>16575774
seeing this book all the time on here now. is it a meme or is it worth buying? can't seem to find a nice epub

[Anonymous No.16576938]

>>16575774
Christianity worships the Good, namely the Father, as explained through the life of Christ, as understood by the Spirit. There is nothing Semitic about Christianity and Christ actually Btfo’s Jews as “worshipping their father the Liar (Satan, evil) from the very beginning”. Christianity theologically, culturally, and traditionally was developed almost entirely by Europeans. The New Testament wasn’t formulated by Jews.

If you want an authentic European tradition the only thing you have is Western Christianity. Your ancestors developed this religion for 70 generations, incorporating their own spiritual thought over time.

[Anonymous No.16576940]

>>16576863
>The House of Hades spends the entire book demonstrating various beliefs in the afterlife...
What does it say about the afterlife in the Pyramid Texts, Coffin texts, Book of the Dead, Books of the Netherworld? Not mentioning other texts and iconographies.

[Anonymous No.16576944]

>>16576908
Welcome to the 21st century, Mr time traveller. A lot has changed over the past two centuries. There have been great strides in the fields of linguistics and History. The erroneous hypothesis that all human civilisation can be traced back to Noah's family has been refuted. We now know that European and Indian civilisations are the descendants of a single civilisation which began somewhere on the Caspian Steppe. You have a lot of catching up to do, but it's an interesting journey you're about to embark on. I envy you somewhat.

[Anonymous No.16576949]

>>16576940
That they have no relation to Orphism, the Homeric tradition, or the Eleusian mysteries. Any similarities are a Hellenistic period syncreticism between Hellenistic Greek Religion onto Egyptian religion.

Again, see Hermes Trismegistus, which is just the Greeks inserting their own religious ideas into Egyptian religion.

[Anonymous No.16576955]

>>16576913
>>16576944
Where can I read up about this Caspian Steppe civilization, I'm interested in their language, culture, mythology, literature, etc etc.

[Anonymous No.16576963]

>>16576863
>they had all of this yet i can't cite a single work.
>metaphysics
greeks had with platonism but not the romans

>religious complex
they both had but both with foreign influences

>eschatology
yes greeks had it and most evidently with the mysteries, orphism, platonism (all of which, guess what, influenced by foreign eschatological conceptions).

>A guy sitting down and coming up with the entire thing in one sitting?
Who is FUCKING PLATO.

[Anonymous No.16576973]

>>16576955
Just look up "Proto-Indo European Civilisation". There's a lot of information out there. Their language and religion has even been partially reconstructed by experts through the process of studying ancient European and Indian cultures.

[Anonymous No.16576975]

>>16576902
still, the egyptians are sons of cam.

[Anonymous No.16576990]

>>16576949
we and they had access to what the egyptians believed, there are accounts about greeks having contact with egyptian science, theology and mysteries, but in the end all the later productions of the greeks showing these influences from egyptians was actually original to the greeks and actually all similarities in egyptian texts dating back even to 3000BC were greeks inserting their own religious ideas?
ok you are retarded and i'll not waste my time with you

[Anonymous No.16576998]

>>16576973
I'll see what's on Wikipedia. I'm not satisfied with your low effort response here, since you're promoting the concept one would expect you to at least be able to offer even one introductory text.

[Anonymous No.16577001]

>>16576944
even the autoctonous people of harappa? what about the egyptians, sumerians?

[Anonymous No.16577009]

>>16576998
update: not much.

[Anonymous No.16577033]

>>16576963
This was already explained to you, see >>16576060.

Also, you've clearly not read Plato. Plato didn't just sit down and come up with his philosophy in one instant you fucking moron. He outright says so.

[Anonymous No.16577043]

>>16576998
I don't know anything more then Wikipedia myself, sorry if I wasn't much help.
>>16577001
As far as I know, neither the Egyptians or the Sumerians had any contact with the Proto-Indo European civilisation.

[Anonymous No.16577051]

>>16577043
Chin up anon, have a smoke with me we'll figure this out later.

[Anonymous No.16577062]

>>16577043
how is the indian civilization descendent of a civilization from the caspian steppe if there were already a particular tradition there?

[Anonymous No.16577066]

>>16576998
We actually had a thread on this like, two days ago. It's still in the archive. >>16557840

>>16577001
Sumerians are an isolate with no cultural, genetic, or linguistic relation to the Afro-Asiatic Egyptians. Neither are related to the Indo-Europeans.

[Anonymous No.16577079]

>>16577062
>IV people arrive
>settle
>time goes by
>Indo-Aryans swarm into India
This takes place over a very long time. Also, by the time the Indo-Aryans arrived, the IV civilization had more or less collapsed.

India is, in truth, the result of the Indo-Aryans conquering and integrating a LOT of local pre-existing cultures and civilizations. The IE component is the single largest, but you're right, it is improper to imply that there was nothing present before they showed up.

[Anonymous No.16577097]

>>16577051
I hope you're referring to pipe tobacco, This is a three-pipe-problem, not a three-joint problem.
>>16577062
Displacement/mixing with the natives. There were some civilisations in Europe, as well, prior to the migration. But Proto-Indo European culture seems to have overwhelmed the prior civilisations.

[Anonymous No.16577098]

>>16576949
>>16576863
>There are also traces of Egyptian influence in Greek myth that are relevant to Orphic theogonies. Certain details of Hesiodic and Orphic myth find parallels with Egyptian myth.
>The importance of Egyptian influence is undeniable and has long been noted. In fact, this is found as early as Herodotus.

>Certain elements of the Orphic field overlap with Bacchic and Pythagorean, while other elements do not; and likewise, certain elements of Bacchic practice overlap with Orphic practice, particularly by means of Orphic texts.114 And any one of these elements could have come from Egypt.

>The element on which Herodotus comments is the wearing of woolen garments, but other points of comparison between Egyptian and Greek myth or practice have been noticed. For example, Burkert has observed a parallel that relates to the eschatology contained in the Orphic gold tablets. In this text, the deceased is instructed that upon entering the underworld, he or she will come upon the following scene (OF 474.2– 4 B):
>there is a spring on the right side, and standing beside it a white cypress. Descending to it the souls of the dead refresh themselves.
>Burkert likens this to the Egyptian Book of the Dead, where the texts are accompanied by a picture in ''which“we see a tree, a pond, and thirsty persons bowing to drink.”115

>As Faraone and Teeter have argued, the Hesiodic myth of Zeus swallowing Metis “probably derives . . . from Egyptian royal ideology.”116 They compare Metis to the Egyptian goddess Maat, who appears in texts from 2500 bc to ad 200.

[Anonymous No.16577111]

>>16577098
>they both talk about the afterlife
>therefore one of them HAD to steal literally everything from the other
The Chinese also talk about there being rivers and trees in the afterlife, are you implying that the Chinese stole their religious and cultural traditions from the Jews as well?

[Anonymous No.16577121]

>>16577066
yes so i think indo-european's influence was not as wide as one could think

>>16577079
yeah, pre-indo-aryan elements and customs were still perserved after the aryan integration, and that kashmir shaivism can be traced back to the period before the invasion.

[Anonymous No.16577125]

>>16577098
>could
lol

[Anonymous No.16577144]

>>16577111
note how the similarity was not merely as background elements but central to the souls's role. but that is literally a single page of the book. what about reading it?
if you want another striking ''resemblance'' compare the judging of the egyptians to the judging in gorgias and phaedo

[Anonymous No.16577149]

>>16577144
>one has a river in its afterlife, the other has a pond
>therefore, the greeks COULD have stolen literally everything from the Egyptians
>could
lol

[Anonymous No.16577157]

>>16577144
The Chinese ALSO have judges of the dead! As did the Aztecs, in fact!

Are you suggesting that the Chinese and the Aztecs stole their religious beliefs from the Jews as well?

[Anonymous No.16577159]

>>16577125
yes, this is scholar precaution but still suggesting it as the most plausible possibility. what could it be if not of egyptian origin? a sudden idea coming out of nowhere despite of its similarity with the egyptian one?

[Anonymous No.16577179]

>>16577149
>>16577157
ignoring the book, what i have said about the book and the logical development derived from a passage of the book and posting the same thing

[Anonymous No.16577198]

>>16577159
>>16577179
You're dodging the question. The Chinese and Mesoamericans also have bodies of water and judges of the dead in the afterlife, as do many African religions. Are you suggesting that they too stole their religious traditions from the Jewish people, or whoever they got them from?

[Anonymous No.16577199]

>>16577157
>>16577149
>>16577125
>>16577111
Also the point of that quote is that the parallel was made by BURKERT.

[Anonymous No.16577210]

>>16577157
Do you want to hear something ironic? The concept of post-mortem judgement wasn't even part of Jewish tradition initially. It came from the Jewish community in Alexandria in the Second Temple Period. So, if anything, the Jewish people got the idea from Greeks and Egyptians.

[Anonymous No.16577218]

>>16575789
>start with the pre-redditors

[Anonymous No.16577270]

>>16577199
Yes, I have read Burkert, I am well aware of him comparing and contrasting the Egyptian and Greek conceptions of the afterlife. I mentioned this in >>16576863.

[Anonymous No.16577432]

>>16577270
...
you are still not answering to what i'm saying. if you think the parellel made is stupid how can you rely on what burkert says? if he is denying the idea of greeks getting a lot from egyptians why does he likens an aspect of their conception about afterlife to the one in an egyptian text?

[Anonymous No.16577433]

>>16575774
I bought the Pantianos publisher print of this book and its the sorriest print ive ever seen in my life. looks like they had an epub they just pasted into notepad and hit ctrl+p. had blank spaces in place of greek characters, missing punctuation, it was left justified in the nastiest way you could imagine. awful, just awful. Bought the Imperium Press print and its actually readable.

[Anonymous No.16578023]

bump

[Anonymous No.16578109]

>>16576017
>worshiping a material object
cringe

[Anonymous No.16578249]

>>16576017
I think Dante said after God, the thing most worthy of worship would be the sun.

[Anonymous No.16578295]

>>16576863
Greek paganism really is a rip off of oriental religion though.

[Anonymous No.16578431]

>>16578295
don't even try, anon. that retard literally says that every similarity between egyptians and greeks was because greeks imposed their own beliefs on egyptian ones during the ptolemaic period (~300BC). this is how much of an insane retard he is.

[Anonymous No.16578545]

>>16578431
Is there a name for this phenomenon where people view a certain civilization or culture in history as "theirs" and this results in them believing the most convoluted and ahistorical excuses as to why that civilization or culture was superior to others? You see it a lot with extreme nationalists, /pol/ types, or other generally idiotic groups. The most egregious example of it I've seen is the Sun Language theory, which was when a bunch of braindead Turkish nationalists claimed their ancestors invented language by staring at the sun or something, and Ataturk (the dictator at the time) even officially endorsed it.

[Anonymous No.16578631]

>>16578545
The term is nationalism and it’s literally always braindead

[Anonymous No.16579566]

The final red pill is 99% of it is mystery Babylon

[Anonymous No.16579760]

>>16578545
>>>/lgbt/

[Anonymous No.16580149]

>>16575922
Don't care, didn't ask plus you're a jew

[Anonymous No.16580211]

>>16576938
>There is nothing Semitic about Christianity
Except the fucking Torah lmao. What a fucking huge cope.

[Anonymous No.16580655]

>>16580211
You're a fool, friend. Judaism is a religion of optimism, and Christianity is that of pessimism; they are entirely different beasts.

[Anonymous No.16582066]

>>16580211
Jesus was a rabbi, his family were Jews, the disciples were Jews. The world of the Gospels is a Jewish one, and Jesus died a Jew. Look up the Ebionites for an example of who where the 'first Christians', i.e A jewish sect. Gentiles only started flocking to Christianity in the third century really, and then mainly through the many Gnostic sects- because they were considered less 'Jewish'.

[Anonymous No.16582110]

>>16578545
>every culture is equal
>this one example will prove that everyone who believes to the contrary of the previous point is silly
>I am very smart

I want reddit to go back.

[Anonymous No.16582114]

>>16582066
>Jesus was
*is

[Anonymous No.16582191]

>>16575774
why? and why are they demons?

[Anonymous No.16583587]

I'm crashing this faith... with no survivors!

[Anonymous No.16583624]

>>16575928
>>16575821

[Anonymous No.16583636]

>>16576187
>he thinks the Christian understanding of the Greeks is sincere rather than a pretense to claim legitimacy for their Jew-god

[Anonymous No.16583716]

>>16583636
Why not both?

[Anonymous No.16583881]

>>16576852
>A bogus passage was added to the Bible to justify this invented doctrine, the church has since acknowledged the tampering and removed the addition.
Citation needed.
Random nu-Baptists need not apply.

[Anonymous No.16584071]

>>16583881
It's not in the Bible. however Early Christians believed it and its implied in the Apostle's creed. Augustine disputed it as allegory. It's up for debate but its not in the Bible.

[Anonymous No.16584097]

>>16583881
Not just the verse (3:19), but the whole book (First Peter) in which the Harrowing of Hell is described, is pseudepigrapha :

>The authorship of 1 Peter has traditionally been attributed to the Apostle Peter because it bears his name and identifies him as its author (1:1). Although the text identifies Peter as its author, the language, dating, style, and structure of this letter have led many scholars to conclude that it is pseudonymous. Many scholars argue that Peter was not the author of the letter because its writer appears to have had a formal education in rhetoric and philosophy, and an advanced knowledge of the Greek language,[1] none of which would be usual for a Galilean fisherman

>>16584071
It sort of is. Peter describes Jesus saving eight, pre-Christian people from Hades. But it's a massive leap of logic to go from "saving eight people" to "saving everybody" of course.

[Anonymous No.16584117]

>>16583716
Because Christian and Classical Greek conceptions of an ultimate God are self-evidently very different to anyone not writing apologetics

[Anonymous No.16584153]

>>16576852
>>16584071
>>16584097
Ephesians 4:9
Luke 10:15
Acts 2:31
Revelation 1:18

[Anonymous No.16584260]

>>16584153
None of those say anything about Christ rescuing people from Hades. Some of them say that Christ went to Hell and some of them talk about Hades. If anything, it disproves the doctrine by demonstrating that Hell and Hades are different places.

[Anonymous No.16584340]

>>16584117
They only "self evident" difference is the Abrahamic faiths claims of personal relationships with God. As expressed in Paul's speech to the Greeks about the "Unknowable/Unknown God"

[Anonymous No.16584357]

>>16584260
Hades is the realm of the dead. Without personal intervention by God all dead are "asleep" Hell doesn't officially exist yet. Hell comes after the final judgements.

[Anonymous No.16584371]

>>16576017
>praises the sun
>not whatever principle makes the sun be the sun in the first place

Must be nice to be a brainlet and arbitrarily choose a random thing to worship.

[Anonymous No.16584482]

>>16584357
There isn't a Hell in the Bible, there's a Gehenna, which already exists and there's a Lake of Fire which springs into existence at the end of the World.

[Anonymous No.16584599]

>>16584260
anon, i'm not sure if you know it but... hades is a greek word and hell an english one.

[Anonymous No.16584626]

>>16584260
how are people separated from God not already in hell? how can any one be saved if not through Christ?

[Anonymous No.16584631]

>>16584340
Thats the difference between a Prime Mover and a vengeful God who demands blind faith and dogmatic adherence to certain values. Christians only care about Greeks as far as they can be dissected and used to justify their own religion

[Anonymous No.16584677]

>>16584599
I'm assuming that the original word was "Gehenna". I probably should have looked it up, though.

>>16584626
That's one definition of Hell. We're talking about Hell as a physical place.

[Anonymous No.16584785]

It's a good book. I'm currently reading it.

[Anonymous No.16585008]

>>16576935
check imperium press

[Anonymous No.16585071]

>>16584371
The brainlet is right. The sun embodies more emotionally and symbolically than the intellect can reach through speculation. You can worship the principle behind the sun if you want ; but you must find a way to it that's as rich as worshipping the sun, or your "worship" will just be intellectual word-games or inner emptyness. Maybe it so happens that the sun is that embodying of the principle?
>inb4 I directly contemplate/become the thing in its abstractness and immateriality
Nah some do but you don't, liar.

[Anonymous No.16585073]

>>16584677
yeah and that has nothing to do with bible and the harrowing of hell

[Anonymous No.16585176]

>>16584482
Besides the names (hell i.e lake of fire) how is that much different then what I said.

[Anonymous No.16585198]

>>16584631
>That's the difference between a Prime Mover who hasn't revealed himself and one who has.
I never said it wasn't

[Anonymous No.16585210]

>>16585176
You said:
>Hell doesn't officially exist yet.
Gehenna is usually translated as Hell, and it's established in the Bible that Gehenna already exists, so Hell does exist.

[Anonymous No.16585211]

>>16585071
>The brainlet is right. The sun embodies more emotionally and symbolically than the intellect can reach through speculation.

[Anonymous No.16585218]

>>16585210
When most people hear Hell they think lake of fire, yes or no?

[Anonymous No.16585237]

>>16585218
Sort of. The Lake of Fire in the Bible is a place where people are completely destroyed. Whereas the "Lake of Fire" that exists in the popular imagination is a place of eternal punishment, like Tartarus.

[Anonymous No.16585245]

>>16584631
>demands blind faith
What's blind about it?
>Christians only care about Greeks as far as they can be dissected and used to justify their own religion
So they care a whole motherfucking lot then lol

[Anonymous No.16585270]

>>16578431
So, you do agree then, that the idea that the Greeks just stole everything from the Egyptians is on its face absurd. After all, if you totally reject the idea that the Egyptians got anything from the Greeks, you surely must accept that it's absurd for the Greeks to get anything from the Egyptians.

[Anonymous No.16585307]

>>16585270
> Greeks just stole everything from the Egyptians is on its face absurd.
Yes because I never claimed that, but you have been arguing solely on distortions of what I say. If you were honest we wouldn't be discussing until now.

>if you totally reject the idea that the Egyptians got anything from the Greeks, you surely must accept that it's absurd for the Greeks to get anything from the Egyptians.
I don't know how the latter is a necessary consequence of the former. Even though I do think late Egypt may have had some benefit from Greeks somehow, it is not even comparable to how much Egypt impacted Greece.

[Anonymous No.16585361]

These fucking larpers have absolutely overrun /his/. Good to see /lit/ doesn't give them free reign here.

[Anonymous No.16585408]

>>16585307
So, if the idea of the Greeks having any impact on Egypt is so crazy, why do you believe the opposite in greater intensity? Why do you reject the idea of the Greeks impacting Egypt, but argue that the entire intellectual output of Greece is just translating Egyptian ideas into Greek, in spite of the fact that there is literally no evidence for this?

You still haven't answered the original question, by the way: If history is just a chain of people stealing philosophy from each other, then where does it originate? Where did China and Mesoamerica get philosophy and religion from?

[Anonymous No.16585426]

>>16585237
what about luke 16, Rich man and the beggar?
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

[Anonymous No.16585558]

>>16585408
>why do you believe the opposite in greater intensity?
Because Egypt was already a 10 thousand year civilization by the time Greece started to flourish.

>but argue that the entire intellectual output of Greece is just translating Egyptian ideas into Greek
I never argued the entire intellectual output of the Greeks was just a translation of egyptian ideas. There was continuation and development.

Seriously this is so tiring. I don't answer you because I simply never stated what you claim I did.

[Anonymous No.16586012]

>>16585558
look, a graham hancock reader

[Anonymous No.16586445]

>>16585008
thank you!

[Anonymous No.16586737]

>>16586012
anything else to say?

[Anonymous No.16586783]

>>16584631
>vengeful God who demands blind faith and dogmatic adherence to certain values

rude!