[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 108 KB, 765x544, F3C04E26-7A93-4433-B204-56D70E392DAA.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560165 No.16560165[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

So you’re an atheist? Ok, give me a materialists account of conscious experience.

>> No.16560192

Please pose your question in simpler words so that I can understand it.

>> No.16560206

>>16560165
The brain’s connection to the various sense record. Much the way a simple machine does.
You wanna go read a book on it now?

>> No.16560233

>>16560206
>the brain is a machine

>> No.16560240

>>16560233
No, that was a comparison. ESL?

>> No.16560243
File: 30 KB, 499x499, 0e9.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560243

>>16560206
What if aliens or bugs don't have human brains but are still conscious? Is consciousness universal?

>> No.16560254

>>16560243
no bugs are dumb and i squish them under my fingernails

>> No.16560258

>>16560254
Aliens squish humans

>> No.16560272

>>16560206
This post explains so much about you.

>> No.16560276

If consciousness arises exclusively from the material construction of the brain then how come twins don't have a single consciousness that exists in both bodies at the same time?

>> No.16560281
File: 48 KB, 1280x720, C9A65C75-4AF7-458B-8C7D-AB2E29EBEB72.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560281

>>16560272
Does it now?

>> No.16560288

>>16560276
The physical similarities identical twins share do give off that impression at times.

>> No.16560291

>>16560165
Why would atheism necessitate being retarded about the nature of consciousness?
>>16560206
How does this even account for experience?

>> No.16560296

>>16560165
Atheism is retarded. I'd be a fool to believe there are no higher powers, but it is my enemy and maybe my friend. Their infinite power is a threat to me.

>> No.16560299

>>16560291
Experience as it happens or the memory of the experience?

>> No.16560301
File: 306 KB, 592x710, 1590304894411.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560301

Jahy-sama on the first page!

>> No.16560320

>>16560299
Experience as it happens

>> No.16560329

>>16560296
Higher powers, there are a lot. Gravity, heat, heck anything with enough force to penetrate my weak form. There are a lot of things more powerful then I am.

>> No.16560335

>>16560165

It's an emergent property of concatenations of atoms. There isn't a real problem here.

>> No.16560341
File: 38 KB, 647x385, 1596935764855.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560341

>>16560329
Yes, and they hold me back from doing as I please. But I will find a way to take my freedom, for I already have myself and that's all I need.

>> No.16560352

>>16560335
Who’s observing the property?

>> No.16560362

>>16560320
The answer is that it doesn't at all. Butters is a pseud who can't into the most basic philosophy of mind.

>> No.16560375
File: 200 KB, 1280x720, 766198D3-526A-4ADD-92EA-12276DD11CEC.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560375

>>16560362
Explain what you two are confused with

>> No.16560381

>>16560335
End thread. God doesn't need to exist for neurons to fire at each other and create complex behavior.

>> No.16560382

>>16560165
Give me an immaterialist account of conscious experience.

>> No.16560387

If there is no material connection to conscious experiences, why does taking psychoactive drugs affect your mental state?

>> No.16560391

>>16560375
The OP's point is that one can't explain qualia without gods.
Your response didn't address this claim at all.
You wanna go read a book on it now?

>> No.16560397

>>16560381
What is truth if there is nothing to observe it? If truth isn’t based on something objective how can any of this work?

>> No.16560398

>>16560335
How can someone be this sure of their intelligence but be this much of a midwit

>> No.16560401

>>16560352

What you describe as a singular presence is merely a phenomenon of concatenations of atoms moving in such and such a way, and necessarily so, since we know that there's consciousness, at least.

>> No.16560407

>>16560276
Obviously spatial separation plus their brains are not materially identical.

>> No.16560416

>>16560165
not an atheist but why do you need the immaterial for consciousness. we are clearly intelligent animals, i don’t see why you need to invoke anything immaterial to say we are conscious.

>> No.16560424

>>16560391
A book that will leave me needing to believe in “gualia” and god? How about you wrap your head around actual conscious experience?
Are you seriously confused about this?

>> No.16560432

>>16560424
Do machines have this "conscious experience"?

>> No.16560433

>>16560401
That’s not consciousness though. You’re describing chemical reactions, but that itself is not qualea.

>> No.16560442

>>16560375
How are you confused over what I’m confused about? I’m obviously confused about how this explanation >>16560206 , as I said in >>16560291 and >>16560320 , is supposed to accounts for experience as it happens

>> No.16560460

>>16560432
No. Just a simple recording function

>>16560442
As Orson Welles records with his camera, so to does his memory of recording. The event will recede into the past and become a tape in the machine and memory in the mind. Hm?

>> No.16560464
File: 44 KB, 400x400, 977a54aca620233a48125566e2de5099_400x400.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560464

What's the explanation for what possesses consciousness denialists? They're completely fried.

>> No.16560510

>>16560460
I’m sorry but I still don’t understand how this accounts for actual experience

>> No.16560524

In a purely materialist consciousness, some fundamental cosmic growth principle caused a processor to grow eyes on the inside, to observe its own wonders. That the mere fundamental organization principles of some physical system would encourage it to eventually perceive and question its own nature is incredible. That this would happen with or without a God is an outlandish belief, but one we're forced to hold because we're here, aren't we?

>> No.16560531

>>16560460
OK, so your explanation of conscious experience is that it is the brain's connection to various sense records. Much the way a simple machine... does what? What exactly is your explanation of conscious experience? What makes it happen in people but not machines?

>> No.16560537

>>16560407
>Man gets into a car accident
>Knocked unconscious, rushed to the hospital where they do emergency brain surgery
>Wakes up with a spatial and temporal separation from his previous brain, plus it's now materially different
And yet it's the same consciousness

>> No.16560574
File: 260 KB, 515x446, chimp-mirror.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560574

>>16560165
Atheism does not necessarily imply materialism, but I'll bite nevertheless:
1) Animals model the environment using the brain, helps with not getting eaten etc
2) Inserting itself into the model makes a better model, but that needs big brains
3) Animal now has a world-model with itself being part of it
4) The Self emerges from this mental mirror
5) 10 million years later we start to babble about souls
Inb4: I know this is sketchy as hell, but still better than "souls".
The other explanation would be that we only see Platon's shadows on the wall, and reality is not accessible to we can't really see what makes us tick.

>> No.16560596

>>16560433

Sure it is.

>> No.16560603

>>16560510
>>16560531
Wow. You kids are confused. Did a philosophy teacher do this to you?

>> No.16560605

>>16560524
>fundamental cosmic growth principle
Sounds like G-d to me

>> No.16560606

>>16560603
*snap*

>> No.16560608

>>16560537
hmmm... interesting...

>> No.16560621

>>16560254
One time some guy in a Nietzsche thread told me I should die because I made a bait post about being an ubermensch and killing those that would hurt you just because you can, but he should have replied to you instead.

>> No.16560626

>>16560416
Because there is literally no coherent materialist account of consciousness. No matter how hard they try, they simply cannot explain qualia, phenomonological, subjective, experiential conscious experience.
I used to vehemently believe that materialism must be true, now that I'm in my 3rd year of a philosophy major, nd I've been forced to read so much Angloid autism, I can't believe the mental gymnastics that they go into just to AVOID answering the question in the first place, let alone giving some answer whatsoever, no matter how correct or incorrect.
>consciousness is this
>no, consciousness is that
>well it's actually more like this
>what about le hard problem?
Okay, what about you stop avoiding the question and give some, literally any, materialist account of conscious qualia.
I have no other reasonable conclusion to draw other than that they are literally incapable of doing so, and therefore materialism is untenable

>> No.16560628

>>16560605
That's what I was getting at, friend.

>> No.16560652

>>16560626

Not him and reading your post, I come to the opposite conclusion that you are arguing for. It's concatenations of atoms/stuff. I see no problem with this whatever. Please let me know why not.

>> No.16560665

>>16560628
I see. Point well made, good chum.

>> No.16560695

>>16560460
>As Orson Welles records with his camera, so to does his memory of recording. The event will recede into the past and become a tape in the machine and memory in the mind.
what the others are trying to say, as in the case with all these threads my dear butterflu, is that while those camera footage are stored and replayed, that process could happen with nothing experiencing those memories, they would be played to the void, and acted upon by the body, and everything would be the same materially

>> No.16560709
File: 13 KB, 167x175, 1501472290286.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16560709

>>16560537
>same consciousness
can you prove it?

>> No.16560711

>>16560165
Consciousness is the result of memory, the interaction between stored information and new information.

>> No.16560725

god doesnt explain consciousness. that only creates the harder problem which is why would gave have conscioussness or value it? its only our intuition that it makes sense because we have it.