/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16539287]

Refute him

[Anonymous No.16539290]

Marx's "Manifesto" and other works were demanded by both American bankers and the German aristocracy. For what purposes did the elite finance Marx? The only goal was to bring down the middle class with all the power of the Marxist philosophical cannonade and thus achieve the dominance of the elite. Marxism is a means to consolidate the power of the elite. It is not intended to alleviate the suffering of the poor or to contribute to the progress of humanity. It is just a plan of the elite, like that utopia, "naive and simple".

[Anonymous No.16539291]

>>16539287
There's no refutation for Marx in economics unless you are a soulless bugman.

[Anonymous No.16539299]

>>16539287

1. Local knowledge problem.

2. Economic calculation problem.

[Anonymous No.16539307]

>>16539287
Well first of all peepee then poo, but considering coom and fart then surely POOPOO PEEP BOOB COOM POOOOOO and die

[Anonymous No.16539312]

>>16539290
No, marxism critiqued capitalism and the elite were afraid. So they needed the texts so they could contrive of strategies to stop the proletarian revolution from happening.

[Anonymous No.16539316]

>>16539287
humans require more than the material has to offer

[Anonymous No.16539327]

>>16539299
>Local knowledge problem.
Fixed by local representatives
>Economic calculation problem
Solved by cockshott

[Anonymous No.16539345]

>>16539316
Humans require water, food, health and shelter to fullfill there basic needs. Introducing socialism/communism makes it easier for people to self actualize.

[Anonymous No.16539351]

>>16539316
Unless you are some tradfag, economic security is more important than any tradition, because without it one's spiritual/cultural cannot be developed.

[Anonymous No.16539362]

>>16539290
Trotsky was a true marxist, and he was also sponsored by American elites. Another former marxist Lenin was also sponsored by German elites, but was killed after he betrayed the plan of world revolution by declaring the Brest Treaty.
>>16539312
They were not afraid, they were sponsoring it. Look it up:
https://medium.com/@BaruchK/jean-lafitte-and-karl-marx-20f421429765
Full book: http://usawealthpartners.com/Federal-reserve-conspiracy--By-antony-sutton.pdf

[Anonymous No.16539378]

>>16539362
>medium
>some random book
Give me some good sources.

[Anonymous No.16539380]

>>16539327
where is this picture from?

[Anonymous No.16539390]

Materialism is an is a false metaphysical position.

[Anonymous No.16539400]

>>16539287
dude free shit lmao

[Anonymous No.16539401]

Materialism is cringe.

[Anonymous No.16539413]

>>16539378
That's a good book on the topic. Don't expect some known names or universities to talk about who was sponsoring Marx, they would not want to destroy their carreers. The fact that Marx's ideas since the date of their writing have always been pushed into masses says enough about who can be interested in their implementation.

[Anonymous No.16539428]

Value is subjective

[Anonymous No.16539435]

>>16539413
You are not one of those /pol/fags "muh cultural marxism" types are you?

[Anonymous No.16539443]

>>16539287
>The Proletariat
Spooked beyond belief. I am not valued for my labor, my labor is MY property that I can do as I please with. Fuck the Proletariat, fuck the Community, and death to the People. Good day, I!

[Anonymous No.16539476]

>>16539345
>>16539351
The one thing you're not taking into account is the human aspiration towards freedom. Materialism would perfectly suit a slave: all of your basic necessities are taken care of, but you can forget about making your own decisions. For communism to be properly implemented, an authoritarian government is essential (at least in the beginning). Unfortunately, for a person that has known freedom, living under the yoke of an authoritarian government is fathomable only if said government strives towards a national/cultural advancement-the very values you disparage! What was that about, tradfag?
Any subsequent critique of capitalism is a strawman, I never advocated for capitalism, I just pointed out the shortcomings of Marx's philosophy.

[Anonymous No.16539482]

>>16539435
/pol/ is the most useless board because it has more intelligence service workers than any other one, and nazism and faschism that are being pushed there are also as much of a globalists ideology as liberalism or marxism. But since you mentioned cultured marxism please tell what you think of /pol/'s take on CM and what is your argumentation?

[Anonymous No.16539489]

>>16539476
>you can forget about making your own decisions
No, the only decision you can't make is to exploit others, you can do everything else.

[Anonymous No.16539497]

>>16539482
>what you think of /pol/'s take on CM and what is your argumentation?
It's good because trans rights are human rights.

[Anonymous No.16539498]

>>16539489
maybe if you're a member of The Party(tm)

[Anonymous No.16539509]

>>16539498
Wrong board friend this is not /pol/, communist hungary was the most successful communist state, and the average cuban has more freedom than the average american.

[Anonymous No.16539519]

>>16539287
Already refuted by Islam.

[Anonymous No.16539520]

>>16539380
Idk

>>16539390
>>16539401
It's perfect for analyzing the world around you and the socioeconomic system we live under. Also marx was heavily influenced by hegel, the material world is in constant dialectic with your spirit.

>>16539413
>schizo shit about universities
figures

>>16539443
Not if you're a wageslave, you'll get exploited for your labour.

>>16539476
Muh authoritarianism is an capitalist anti-communist propaganda meme. See pic related. We're currently living under an authoritarian system a bourgeois authoritarian system, where lobbying power trumps everything else.

>>16539482
Cultural marxism is a bad concept because the current cultural degradation has nothing to do with marxism but with capitalism. So cultural capitalism would be better.

[Anonymous No.16539540]

>>16539290
Even if this were true it’s not really a refutation, i think you know that

[Anonymous No.16539543]

>>16539520
>the current cultural degradation has nothing to do with marxism but with capitalism.
Cultural degradation might have been caused by capitalism, but in the current state of cultural degradation they actually use cultural marxist ideas to justify their social and political behavior

[Anonymous No.16539551]

>>16539509
I had a professor who was born in communist hungary. She was hardly what you would call a sympathizer. Even the "most successful communist state" resulted better off when it was over. As for Cuba, I'll let the Floridian expats speak for themselves.
>>16539520
Not an argument. You say we live in an authoritarian system already, so we should switch it for a different strain of authoritarian system? Does the Manifesto say "dictatorship of the proletariat" in it or not? The very concept of 'lumpenproletariat' establishes a hierarchy among who is considered a "real proletariat" or not. Class consciousness can't be measured objectively.

[Anonymous No.16539556]

>>16539543
>cultural marxism
is there any faster way to get your opinion discarded? retardus maximus

[Anonymous No.16539559]

>>16539543
What ideas specifically? Minorities were given rights and eventually they fought back, this happened since the roman empire, it's a historical process not some "evil marxists plotting to take away my tradwife"

[Anonymous No.16539568]

>>16539551
>one woman’s opinion
ok
>cuban expats
they’re from a distinct social strata from old cuba with distinct material interests, theyre not the common cuban they mostly descend from white economic elites

>dictatorship of the prole
i am not an expert on marxism but this doesn’t mean a literal dictatorship dude, read about it and come back

[Anonymous No.16539570]

>>16539551
Class consciousness can be gained from reading marxist texts this is why it needs to be taught in school

[Anonymous No.16539575]

>>16539551
Cubans has better primary education/healthcare and life expectancy than the average american, shiny building s and fancy cars don't equal quality of life, the expats escaped because they couldn't exploit people they wanted that toxic lifestyle, if ask rural cubans they will probably say the regime changed their life for the better.

[Anonymous No.16539577]

>>16539520
>Wageslave
Spooked. Just kill them.

[Anonymous No.16539583]

>>16539570
the schools being a tool of the state would not present marxism in an unbiased way tho. for all the talk about how left wing schools are, actual communism/marxism is always presented negatively. college might be a different story

[Anonymous No.16539591]

>>16539559
History is not a good argument because its being constructed to fit into politics of rulers and to justify them. Specifically SJW politics in the west are the exact implementation of the anti oppression strategy described by CM

[Anonymous No.16539602]

>>16539591
And how is that supposed to be bad exactly?

[Anonymous No.16539606]

Human nature

[Anonymous No.16539615]

>>16539568
>Its not a REAL dictatorship dude!
>>16539570
Then proper communist revolution can only be achieved when -all- strata of oppressed peoples are taught class consciousness. Until then, you're trading the economic elites of capitalism for the intellectual elites of communism.
>>16539575
You really want me to say it? The only way Cuba can function as a State in the international capitalist system as a communist(socialist)("communist") State is by being crypto-capitalist in practice. You say education is good, yet in reality Cuba is only really well known for its exceptional medical education. As for the rural Cubans, they're living a cushy life of subsidized crop production just like the American farmers.

[Anonymous No.16539622]

>>16539520
>It's perfect for analyzing the world around you and the socioeconomic system we live under. Also marx was heavily influenced by hegel, the material world is in constant dialectic with your spirit.
It still makes Marx wrong. People were able to predict eclipses with the geocentric model of the universe, but that didn't make them right either.

[Anonymous No.16539985]

>>16539583
It should just instill basic concepts like class conflict, criticisms of capitalism, etc.
>>16539615
>Then proper communist revolution can only be achieved when -all- strata of oppressed peoples are taught class consciousness. Until then, you're trading the economic elites of capitalism for the intellectual elites of communism
Not necessarily, since the intellectual proles can still represent the material interests of lumpen.
>>16539622
We are fundamentally material beings, if you deny this then go live without eating, drinking, sleeping, etc.

[Anonymous No.16540013]

He was a Satanist, and everything Marx wrote was a product of the dark forces that consumed him. Marxism only seeks to destroy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZtRmoYJApQ

[Anonymous No.16540048]

>>16540013
You again, stop shilling this book. Are you being paid to shill this?

[Anonymous No.16540062]

we'll never know until the socdems are prevented from restraining the work of the free market, until then communism is just a theory

[Anonymous No.16540068]

>>16539327
cockshott hasnt solved anything and the circular reasoning he used to explain LTV was so bad it legitimately put me off reading the rest of Capital for some time

[Anonymous No.16540072]

[Anonymous No.16540077]

>>16539985
>the intellectual proles can represent the material interests of lumpen
Again with the deification of the intellectual, just say you want a philosopher king, why all this misdirection about democracy and feigned interest in "workers" and their supposed rights?

[Anonymous No.16540078]

>>16540062
Marx talked very little about communism

>>16540068
Explain your concern about the LTV

[Anonymous No.16540088]

>>16540077
Workers can represent their interest through local and regional councils like they did in the USSR

[Anonymous No.16540089]

>>16540078
Not him but read Capital as Power by Nitzan and Bichler, the chapters on Marx explain pretty well why all empirical studies of LTV rely on circularity while paying Marx his due respect as a founder of radical economics and good thinker overall. In this books they refute both Marxist and neoliberal economics and attempt to launch a completely new scientific research program

[Anonymous No.16540094]

>>16540088
I thought the Party/State/system represented the workers interests. I thought that was the whole idea of Marxism. Whom would the workers represent their interests towards, to which authority?

[Anonymous No.16540115]

>>16539287
Already refuted by reality.

[Anonymous No.16540116]

>>16540089
Can you elaborate further, I mean marx took the LTV from Adam Smith and Ricardo and modified it a bit and used it as a lense to show that exploitation is happening. So I don't see the issue with the LTV.

>>16540094
There needs to be someone who can represent them and fix local/regional issues, bring them on the table etc.
Also the Party/State/system comes from lenin, it's not necessarily from Marx.

[Anonymous No.16540119]

>>16540116
Granted, Marx was pretty vague regarding praxis.

[Anonymous No.16540125]

>>16540115
You mean proven right by reality.

[Anonymous No.16540130]

If I have to hear about Marxism again I’m going to shoot myself. Political philosophy is today is dead in the water, when are “academics” going to stop writing elaborate cope arguments about Marx and start talking about something interesting and original?

[Anonymous No.16540140]

>>16540116
I should ask you to do your own job and download the book (it's available for free in pdf as the authors don't believe in intellectual property) but here you are, the chapter goes further into how Marxist analysis is not really tenable and Cockshott gets refuted hard
> studies has to do with values – or rather the
lack thereof. To our knowledge, all Marxist models that purport to correlate
prices with values do no such thing. Instead of correlating prices with values,
they in fact correlate prices with . . . prices!
The reason is simple enough. Recall that, according to Marx, the value of
a commodity denotes the abstract labour time socially necessary for its
production. Yet, as we already mentioned and elaborate further here and in
Chapter 8, this quantum is impossible to measure. And so the researcher
makes assumptions.
The most important of these assumptions are that the value of labour
power is proportionate to the actual wage rate, that the ratio of variable
capital to surplus value is given by the price ratio of wages to profit, and occa�sionally also that the value of the depreciated constant capital is equal to a
fraction of the capital’s money price. In other words, the researcher assumes
precisely what the labour theory of value is supposed to demonstrate.
8

[Anonymous No.16540152]

This probably belongs in a thread of its own, but I don’t wanna kill a thread when everyone in this one could help me. I love Marx, but like any thinker I have my beefs, but I am also interested in schumpeter, but don’t know a whole lot about him except his analysis of trends, creative destruction etc. but he had a wild love/hate relationship to Marx, and I was wondering if anyone knows where I could find him arguing with Marx? Thanks heaps

[Anonymous No.16540165]

>>16540130
What the fuck are you talking about, you think the status quo of liberalism that's slowly decending into fascism again just like in the 1930s is good?

>>16540140
Yes but Marx was never interested in calculating prices, it sounds like a good book though. I'll pick it up.

[Anonymous No.16540214]

>>16540048
No. I'm showing you the truth.

[Anonymous No.16540218]

>>16540165
>status quo of liberalism that's slowly decending into fascism again just like in the 1930s is good?
Not happening but I wish it were

[Anonymous No.16540236]

>>16539287
Hegel was wrong, materialism is wrong.
LToV is not useful.
His predictions have had 150 years to work out, but nothing has gone his way, and everything has gone the other way.
Lastly all movements that have used him as a basis have ended in failure.

As I see it, all theories are wrong, some are useful. Marx does not qualify even that, I cannot even like his ideas on the basis that they conform to how I wish things ought to look like (which I understand is the main draw to his work.)

[Anonymous No.16540242]

>>16540214
No, you're retarded. Maybe you developed apathy because how fucked electoral politics is, or maybe you're some Fukuyama-ist who thinks we're in a post-ideological world. In that case read or listen to zizek or althusser.

[Anonymous No.16540246]

>>16540236
Its the truth but they dont want to hear it. Materialism is an intellectual dead end. In a thousand years they’ll be coping snd saying that Marx. prophecies will come true someday

[Anonymous No.16540260]

>>16540236
If materialism is wrong try not eating, sleeping, drinking, etc. We're essentially material beings with material needs. LToV has proven to be useful to show exploitation. His predictions still stand. China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, North Korea all still exist.

[Anonymous No.16540268]

[Anonymous No.16540275]

>>16540260
I dont think you understand what materialism is and what the alternatives are, if you did you wouldn’t be a Marxist. Also all of those countries are shitholes today with the exception of China, which is state capitalist not communist

[Anonymous No.16540279]

>>16539287
Where are the marxists, karl?

[Anonymous No.16540280]

>>16540260
Take your meds

[Anonymous No.16540281]

>>16540260
>If materialism is wrong try not eating, sleeping, drinking, etc
Aestheticism or rejecting the world in favor of divinity is something you should try. You are not an animal, man is above and beyond animals and is a divine being when he forgoes his material needs in favor of divinity.
>LToV has proven to be useful to show exploitation
Yep, so its circular logic, I wish to justify my beliefs so I subscribe to LToV. Otherwise if you do not subscribe to its ideas its not useful.
>His predictions still stand. China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, North Korea all still exist.
State capitalism is not real communism Comrade! But in all seriousness, its not useful. Plenty of other historical models that are much younger have had much more predictive power then Marx's. Consider Spengler or Tonybee.

[Anonymous No.16540286]

>>16539476
>For communism to be properly implemented, an authoritarian government is essential (at least in the beginning)
Read Kropotkin. Anarchist communism is the only way. To be fair, Kropotkin criticizes Marx pretty hard.

[Anonymous No.16540305]

>>16540242
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TojjSh9xF0

[Anonymous No.16540307]

>>16540242
Not the anon you’re arguing with. Have read capital as power. Is not in anyway naive about igeology - in fact a large discussion of the book is dedicated to how crises (ie. the conflict in the Middle East) are good for business and helps to expand us hegemony. Plus the pair are mad into castoriadis. You should read them.

[Anonymous No.16540355]

>>16540275
I think you don't know what dialectical materialism is. Also all those communists countries treat the poor better than the imperial core of the world, the US

>>16540281
Aestheticism is not the same as dying from hunger. We're not transcendent beings, if I put a bullet through your brain your material body will die and we can only speculate what will happen to your innerself.
Bro labour theory of value is just describing why raw materials are less valueable than the commodities that can be made from them. Labour adds value, that's why you get paid, and capitalist pay you less than the actual value you produce.

[Anonymous No.16540365]

>>16540307
Na wait I fucked up who was taking to who. Read capital as power anyway.

[Anonymous No.16540376]

This dude actually read Hegel and thought to himself "Wow! This is awesome! :)" which it most certainly is not.

[Anonymous No.16540424]

>>16540355
>dialectical materialism
A castrated conception of reality
>those communists countries treat the poor better than the imperial core of the world, the US
material conditions for the working class became exponentially better in America compared in communist states after WWII and remain so today

[Anonymous No.16540429]

>>16540424
*compared to

[Anonymous No.16540464]

>>16540286
Kropotkin was a proto-New Age hippie. For me, it's Proudhon.

[Anonymous No.16540530]

>80 posts in
>still no refutation