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/lit/ - Literature

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16524841 No.16524841 [Reply] [Original]

I recently got into a conversation with a bunch of 20-year-olds about what books they read in high school. It wasn't much different than what I was assigned. Of Mice and Men was popular, The Great Gatsby, Old Yeller, Brave New World. I'm in my 40s.

A couple of years back I finally read A Confederacy of Dunces. Most of these books fly right over the head of teenagers, but I started wondering what would be a good book to shove down these kid's throats. How about Confederacy? I think it's really perfect for high school kids. Ignatius is a character I think kids could really relate to. Is this a good book for high school? Does anyone assign it?

I do like Catcher in the Rye as well and am not sure why kids aren't assigned that more often.

What do you think?

>> No.16525345
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16525345

Confederacy of Dunces is one of my favorite books. But I don't think it will fair any better than what already is standard in the curriculum. The kids genuinely into lit will probably appreciate it. But you have to understand, when teaching a HS class it isn't like college where the teacher can just expect the students to be up to their standards. Usually you have to balance the curriculum so that it miraculously engages the intelligent and average intelligent kids in the class while also not alienating the dumb ones too much.

Could you imagine some average cheerleader probably literally named Stacy reading the first scene where Ignatius criticizes the fashion sense of people who wear new clothing instead of wearing worn out clothing. Do you really think she will understand that the reader is meant to look at Ignatius ironically. Even assuming she does read the book, she and all her other friends will probably constantly complain about how disgusting Ignatius is.

>> No.16525371

>>16524841
Zoomer here, my grade 11th and 12th English courses had us choose our own books.
This I've seen is becoming more common unfortunately, couldn't stand to see all the idiot shit people were bringing.
These were seniors reading Harry Potter and writing book reports on the characters.
Our reports were marked on effort and not critical thinking or intelligence or thought or any of that.
The more you wrote the better.
I chose f451 and passed the course by the skin of my teeth because I wrote clearly.

Catcher in the Rye is definitely a book I wish more students were reading, since it deals with very relevant topics in their lives, it can actually help them mature.

>> No.16525392

>>16525371
>Catcher in the Rye is definitely a book I wish more students were reading, since it deals with very relevant topics in their lives, it can actually help them mature.
>I do like Catcher in the Rye as well and am not sure why kids aren't assigned that more often.

He rapes his sister, Phoebe.

>> No.16525594

>>16524841
Its portrayal of lesbians would not be halal for today's audiences. They would no doubt edit it.

>> No.16525974

>>16525392
Where did you take that from? Genuine question. There are some important information given subtly in one phrase or one paragraph. Maybe I missed something? Or are you just retarded?

>> No.16525995

>>16525345
This.

>>16525371
>Catcher in the Rye is definitely a book I wish more students were reading
If my high school gave us Catcher in the Rye to read, I can imagine some of the midwits that used to study with me rambling about how "Holdien is so me!!!" Holy shit, that would be cringe as fuck.

>> No.16526016

>>16525974
https://files.catbox.moe/yukmqt.pdf
page 6 ff

>> No.16526037

Catcher in the rye was the first book we read in 7th grade

I think it's story is relevant to kids to give perception on cynicism and why it's not the greatest attribute to have

I don't see the point of kids reading Confederacy of Dunces, what would it teach them or give them insight into? It's basically just entertainment, it doesn't have any genuine worth besides making you chuckle.

>> No.16526055

>>16526016
>https://files.catbox.moe/yukmqt.pdf

retarded jewish projection

>> No.16526069

>>16526055
>he denies new criticism
fuck off pomo cunt.

>> No.16526101

>>16526069
im sure lots of people will read you gay little zine if you spam it more on 4chan you fucking queer

>> No.16526116

>>16526101
Read the waruso link contained within thence cunce and fill your mussy with oil and fire.

What I have said before, I shall say again:

He rapes his sister, Phoebe.

>> No.16526117

>>16524841
I graduated HS in 2018 here are some books I remember

Fuckin uhhh
Freshmen
>to kill a mockingbird
>Fahrenheit 451
Sophomore
>Oedpius
Junior
>in Cold Blood
Senior
>catcher in the rye
>no country for old men
>hamlet
>heart of darkness


i had the same teacher for 10th and 12th grade and he was p based

>> No.16526129

>>16526117
O and senior year we did "the things they carry"
And uhhhhhhhhhhhh
Pride and prejudice

>> No.16526204

>>16524841
I read it for the first time in High School and thought it was funny as fuck.

>> No.16527366

>>16524841
It'd be a great book to teach.

When you teach something like this, do you have to address the way black people are presented in the work, and how do you do that? (I'm not into identity politics, just curious.)

>> No.16527449

>>16526117
What the hell is with the obsession of teaching In Cold Blood?

>> No.16527497

>>16524841
I think that Confederacy is a book that can only be appreciated by people in their mid 20s, or else most of the humor is gonna go over their head because it is hard for people in their teens to look at their past and laugh about it.

>> No.16527556

I read it in high school and recommended it to a bunch of friends back then. The ones who read it loved it.

>> No.16527585

The problem with Confederacy for me is that I can only picture Ignatius with a Brooklyn accent. Obviously that doesn’t make sense given that it takes place in Louisiana.

>> No.16527592

>>16527497
Not to mention the feeling of being educated but also being a failure.

>> No.16527612

>>16527449
Explain what’s wrong with it?

>> No.16527617

>>16527585
I think the book suggests he has either a Hoboken, NJ, or Astorian (Queens) accent, whatever that means.

>> No.16527689

>>16524841
Yes, it's great for high school kids, especially juniors-seniors

>> No.16527720

why would aCoD be good for high school kids?
they've got their whole lives ahead of them at that point - they haven't encountered the college-educated faux-intellectuals, or experienced failure or losers who give up on life

>> No.16527737

>>16527585
Surprisingly, due to New Orleans' mercantile history, the traditional accent of the white working class in New Orleans is remarkably similar to that of Brooklyn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_English

>> No.16527819

>>16526117
The only book I remember in high school was the great gatsby, and I don't think I even read it, we watched the movie instead.

>> No.16528264

>>16524841
>Be a teacher.
>Ask for advice on a Mongolian cow herding forum.

Your total ignorance of that which you profess to teach merits the death penalty. I doubt whether you would know that St. Cassian of Imola was stabbed to death by his students with their styli. His death, a martyr’s honorable one, made him a patron saint of teachers.

>> No.16528663

>>16528264
It seems martyrdom is lost on the modern age. He should be gassed, or at least put to the trial of my private apocalypse.

>> No.16528816

>>16525392
No he didn't. Keep your degenerate fantasies to yourself.

>> No.16528823

>>16526116
This is what you get when stupid people don't know they are stupid.

>> No.16528860

I only know of it existence from reading Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath diaries.

>> No.16528915

>>16526016
>>16526101
>>16526116
I like what you posted of your gay little magazine, cheers faggot

>> No.16529120

OP here, read all comments so far.

I read CoD in my 40s and most of the time reading it I thought high school me would've loved this book and would've loved discussing it, writing papers about it. It strikes me as written on a very simple level, syntax-wise. It's almost as if the author did intend it for a younger audience.

As far as it having a bad depiction of lesbians, I did notice that. It was nothing too over-the-top, however. Everything in the book has to be seen through the lens of particular characters. Black characters aren't treated as poorly, I don't think. Burma Jones, the most important black character I would say, is treated just as sympathetically as anyone else in the book. It's true he's a criminal but so is Ignatius. Something I do like about this book is the true variety of characters. It includes many walks of life and races and ethnicities, etc. etc.

Is it mere entertainment? I think where it really shines is in its unusual characters. Ignatius is everything we're not supposed to be. He is the ultimate contrarian. For young readers, I see this as enlightening. They can see the world through the lens of characters completely different from themselves, which is the primary reason you should read at all.

That it's not political is a plus. Politics is really way over the head of most high school kids. Brave New World is completely lost on them.

I'm not a teacher. It's just something I've been thinking about. Ignatius is much like Holden, he refuses to grow up. But CoD is much more fun, gives you multiple perspectives of similar events, and even pokes fun of its protagonist a little (or a lot depending on your perspective). I can see CoD supporting a good number of interpretations which would lend itself to essays and class discussions.

I will tell you all that the reason I got started on this line of thought is because I thought Gatsby was too old for high school kids, but then I started wondering what quality literature out there was a better fit. I'm starting to think CoD is the ONE TRUE NOVEL. (Instead of Gatsby.)

>> No.16529940

>>16528823
You’re as touchy as Holdens dad

>> No.16529956

>>16528915
It’s not my gay magazine. It is where the editor published my most patient explanation of a basic new criticism reading.

>> No.16530366

Zoomer here, I never read many classics in English. Most classic books I read outside of school. Never read things like Mockingbird of Catcher for school. Only traditional classic book I read was Gatsby. For some reason they made me read a lot of very whiny historical fiction about slavery fromike the past 10 years.

>> No.16530371

>>16530366
*or

sorry for typos

>> No.16530991

>>16530366
What was your and your classes' take on Gatsby?

>> No.16530997

>>16524841
how about we stop coddling the little faggots and give them critique of pure reason

>> No.16531073

>>16524841
Someone I know attended a highly competitive public school and this was assigned to him one year. Only time I heard of it being read in a high school class. I was 'reading' some piece of shit book like Ragtime then.

>> No.16531124

>>16529120
I guess theme-wise, there isn't too much to discuss? You could get the students to realise that they're not meant to take Ignatius seriously, but beyond that... there isn't much "symbolism" you can rip into for first essays. And the themes... workers rights, racism, pornography, sexuality... there's stuff there, but it's mostly treated in an irreverent or even outdated way, rather than with the sincerity that I think highschool kids could benefit from (I love the book, to be clear).

The blacks are portrayed as human beings; flawed, and capable of kindness and stupidity, which I guess is a good message to send. I prefer that to the Wokeshevik doctrine that high-schools seem to be pushing for now, but again, if I'm honest, I feel like there are better books that could be used to make that point.

As for the lens... I honestly feel like JK Rowling's latest book does that better. Setting aside its literary merits, it's great at setting you inside the head of a man, and a women, and showing you just how different their expectations and worldviews are. In terms of gaining perspective, I got more from it than CoD.

I think most high school kids could get 1984; it's not exactly subtle. I also did Gatsby in high school, and had no problems with it (though I think it's terribly overrated).

TL;DR, I like CoD, but I think there are better choices for babbies first lit.

>> No.16531179

>>16531124
I agree with you about 1984. I wonder why it isn't more read in high schools. It seems like a natural. Animal Farm too. Especially Animal Farm because it's an easier read.

I really do think there's enough depth on CoD to write essays. There are many weird tangents in the book that only last a few pages or so.

>> No.16531263

Do Americans not do Shakespeare or something?
Living in aus I had to do 2 plays a year, think it was Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth, Romeo, Richard III and Henry IV I. We had graded english classes so this might explain why americans have such atrocious book picks for high school english.

>> No.16531288

>>16531263
We read Shakespeare and plays but you got to read novels too at some point.

Charles Dickens is pretty good too I think, but still a little too much for high school kids. It's just that there are lots of things going on going over kid's heads.

>> No.16531488

>>16531179
I would say 1984 is common hs lit. Animal Farm is common middle school lit.
>>16531263
Yes they do.

In an American HS I read the following:
Lord of the Flies, Scarlet Letter, Ethan Frome, Ragtime, Great Gatsby, Sound of Waves, Hamlet, A Tale of Two Cities, Rime of the Ancient Mariner, The Odyssey, Beowulf, Catcher in the Rye, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Civilization and its Discontents, Heart of Darkness, Antigone, Julius Caesar, Glass Menagerie, Oedipus Rex, Parts of the Commie Manifesto, Sir G & Green Knight, some Platonic dialogues, Huck Finn, Candide, Othello, Macbeth, Song of Solomon, The Prince, selections from the Bible. A few other poems and essays that I cannot recall all the names of.

>> No.16531570

>>16531179
Cynically, I think it's because Orwell's later works were explicitly anti-communist, and the average education department skews very left wing. My brother even got assigned "Down and out in Paris and London," for high school lit, which is an astronomically idiotic choice for an Orwell novel.

I'm definitely not saying you can't write essays on CoD, just that I don't think it's an ideal choice for that in high school.

>>16531263
Same in Aus. Also did Gatsby, Streetcar, various other stuff. Including some god-forsakenly terrible books about aboriginies.

>>16531488
Never even heard of Scarlet Letter or Ethan Frome in Australia until I'd left HS. Not sure any high school here does them.

>> No.16531572

>>16531488
That is an interesting list. I covered some of those in high school and college. I think Civilization and its Discontents, The Prince, Huck Finn, some Bible, Catcher, Candide, Beowulf, are the best out of that list for young people. The other stuff? Not sure it's so great. Maybe some Communist Manifesto, but if you're going with a commie who's hard to read, why not Thorstein Veblen and Theory of the Leisure Class? I think high school kids would get way more out of it than any Marx.

I'm really unsure why Antigone is read at all. Why not Lysistrata? It's super dirty, maybe high school kids would enjoy it. Maybe you can't read it in the US though.

>> No.16531639

>>16531570
In the US a book like Scarlet Letter or Ethan Frome would have been read with transcendentalism or New England American literature in mind. Kind of our ‘national lit’ even though I feel they both kind of suck. Of course the political trash like Ragtime and Song of Solomon were the silliest inclusions imo. At the time Heart of Darkness was the most hated by the general student body.
>>16531572
I think the order of things is important. We read Beowulf, Odyssey, and Catcher as freshmen. It was simply too early for me. Well desu I barely read anything. I reread Catcher as a junior and enjoyed it more. Haven’t read Lysistrata. The school wanted us to engage with ‘foundational texts’ for systematic thinkers. So they felt Marx himself was essential. I think Dickens had the most potential but my feeling in things now is, that the books should just be read during ELA class rather than as a homework assignment. You can read some pretty dirty things in the US. I took an elective that was gothic horror related and we watched some good 70s vampire flicks with full on titties washed in blood.

>> No.16531715

>>16531570
>because Orwell's later works were explicitly anti-communist
Go read Lion and Unicorn until you understand it. Might also want to differentiate Communist and communist when talking about the 1940s.

>which is an astronomically idiotic choice for an Orwell novel.
No, that would be Clergyman's Daughter or Aspidistra.

>>16531639
When someone says they read Manifesto you should punch them in the eye socket. Theses Feuerbach or Critique Gotha are of similar length, and both have greater importance for Marx as a canon thinker.

I mean obviously people should just read Engels instead, but this is a University department, so that one old fuck with curriculum blocking control avoids actually setting vibrant Marxist texts. I mean shit, why not just set Black Jacobins and leave Marx as suggested reading on essays.

>> No.16531824

>>16531639
Yeah, can't fathom why HoD is still read. Aside from being politically incorrect, I don't even think it's Conrad's best work. Was very disappointed with it.

>>16531715
If you are going to read one Orwell novel, you read Animal Farm or 1984.

No one should read Marx or Engels, except as comedy.

>> No.16531866

>>16531824
Condition of the working class in England is a masterpiece of proto-sociology, and watching drunk men rolling on the floor of a basement apartment while their woman (not wife) works and supplies the gin is a beautiful moment.

Also Engels on tobacco adulteration.

You're a fucken cretin mate.

>> No.16531888

>>16531866
A masterpiece of a field of faeces is still shit, m8.

You would have to be borderline retarded to be a Marxist in 2020. And not the top end of the border.

>> No.16532054

>>16527497
This. NEEThood is generally incomprehensible for teens. They're missing some pretty critical frame of reference having not yet entered the adult world.

>> No.16532925

>>16526016
Wow, this is dogshit.