This book has the following argument for God’s existence

[Anonymous No.16483277]

The universe is logical since it is rational. It is unlikely that the logical character of the universe can be accounted for by matter, motion, time and chance alone. Since logical laws are immaterial, immutable, universal, and obligatory, then they presuppose a person who is that source of those logical laws, and that person could only be God.

In other words, that the universe is rational is evidence that a rational being, God, created the universe. This is a logical argument for God that is based on logic itself.

Frame states that salvation is a means of escaping and overcoming evil. He then notes that for Buddhists, salvation is found by escaping into a form of nothingness called Nirvana. But Buddhism is a dead end. Buddhism in effect makes annihilation into a superior form of being, and indeed, it turns annihilation into salvation. That promise simply is not credible.

[Anonymous No.16483699]

[Anonymous No.16484014]

>>16483277
>then they presuppose a person who is that source of those logical laws
No they don't.

[Anonymous No.16484052]

How is the universe rational?

[Anonymous No.16484092]

>>16484014
Can material instances make a universal?

>>16483277
I haven't read Buddhism but doesn't it account for the death of the self to become unity with the universe?

>>16484052
I don't know why they teach epistemology but I think he means it's rationally understood and wasn't referring to it being an epistemology derivation.

[Anonymous No.16484141]

>>16483277
If a rational creator is necessary to have rational universal laws then what/who created God's rationality?

[Anonymous No.16484144]

>>16484141
God is outside linear time and cause and effect (by definition), so the question is meaningless.

[Anonymous No.16484148]

>The universe is logical since it is rational.
Awful. Next.

[Anonymous No.16484322]

Remember when Christian apologists would get mad at each other for having shit arguments? That doesn't seem to happen on this board for whatever reason

[Anonymous No.16484545]

>>16483277
this sounds like a really hacked away bad version of the transcendental argument but yes in its correct form it is irrefutable and atheists have to bite the bullet.

[Anonymous No.16486233]

Christian philosophy books are kino.

[Anonymous No.16486330]

>>16484545
>irrefutable
>implying this actually helps your credibility

[Anonymous No.16486363]

>>16483277
>it is unlikely that the logical character of the universe can be accounted for by matter, motion, time, and chance alone
Why does he assume the universe is rational and then discount the explanatory frameworks humans place on the universe to make it logical? You can't have it both ways. Either these frameworks are explanatory for the phenomena they describe or they aren't. You can't act as though physicists are reading the universe and then claim that they are both limited but somehow understanding the closed rules of how things function; it's a contradiction in terms.

[Anonymous No.16487761]

>>16483277
1. What's the difference between logical and rational? What evidence do we have that the universe is "rational"?
2. What do you mean by "logical character"? Matter and motion obey physical laws. How are these physical laws different from the logical laws that the universe also obeys?
3. If logical laws are immaterial, immutable, and universal, why do they need a source?
4. Why does one rational being (the universe) require the existence of another rational being (God)? Why doesn't God's own rationality need to be explained as being created by a higher God?

This sounds like a rehash of an old version of the argument from design. The universe looks like it's ordered and organized, and only a mind can produce order and organization, therefore the universe must have been created by an all powerful mind, i.e. a rational God.

This argument has been around for centuries and if you want a good, sympathetic exploration of it, read Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion.

[Anonymous No.16487780]

>>16486233
>evangelicals
fuck no

[Anonymous No.16487792]

>>16483277
>The universe is logical since it is rational
Says who

[Anonymous No.16489189]

>>16483277
>He then notes that for Buddhists, salvation is found by escaping into a form of nothingness called Nirvana. But Buddhism is a dead end. Buddhism in effect makes annihilation into a superior form of being, and indeed, it turns annihilation into salvation. That promise simply is not credible.

Based! The great Indian philosopher Shankara would agree

[Anonymous No.16489428]

conway's game of life shows that complex behavior can arise from a simple set of rules.

all the complexity of our reality can be plausibly attributed to the interaction of fundamental physical laws