/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16480322]

How does one go about learning Dante's Italian? I imagine it's not as easy as simply learning contemporary Italian. Also looking for tips when it comes to Petrarca and Boccaccio.

[Anonymous No.16480365]

You just learn modern italian and look up the words you don't know in Dante on a dictionary. As far as I know Boccaccio is for the most part comprehensible to italian natives.

[Anonymous No.16480939]

>>16480322
When Italian nationalists were standardizing the Italian language they explicitly based it on the Tuscan dialect, which is the dialect used by Dante, Petrarch, and Boccaccio. Their writing should be understandable to a speaker of Standard Italian, even if there are some differences.

[Anonymous No.16481772]

>>16480322
Still cant get over the fact that Dante wrote in a vulgar tongue and got the Church to sponsor him

[Anonymous No.16481824]

>>16480939
Is that so? I'm not doubting you, it just seems weird in the sense that I could never imagine the English basing anything on Chaucer, or the Germans on Eschenbach's Parzival.

[Anonymous No.16482045]

>>16480322
If you know modern Italian, you can read Dante.
Nearly all editions have extensive annotations. But even the text itself is not really difficult (from a "basic comprehension" perspective).
It is easier than reading, say, Ulysses, e.e. cummings, or those ebonics chapters from Infinite Jest.

>>16480365
Boccaccio is quite easy. Petrarca too.

>>16481824
>The language that came to be thought of as Italian developed in central Tuscany and was first formalized in the early 14th century through the works of Tuscan writer Dante Alighieri, written in his native Florentine. Dante's epic poems, known collectively as the Commedia, to which another Tuscan poet Giovanni Boccaccio later affixed the title Divina, were read throughout the peninsula and his written dialect became the "canonical standard" that all educated Italians could understand. Dante is still credited with standardizing the Italian language. In addition to the widespread exposure gained through literature, the Florentine dialect also gained prestige due to the political and cultural significance of Florence at the time and the fact that it was linguistically an intermediate between the northern and the southern Italian dialects.[15]:22 Thus the dialect of Florence became the basis for what would become the official language of Italy.

>Italian was progressively made an official language of most of the Italian states predating unification, slowly replacing Latin, even when ruled by foreign powers (like Spain in the Kingdom of Naples, or Austria in the Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia), even though the masses kept speaking primarily their local vernaculars. Italian was also one of the many recognised languages in the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

[Anonymous No.16482136]

>>16481824
>it just seems weird in the sense that I could never imagine the English basing anything on Chaucer, or the Germans on Eschenbach's Parzival.
Standard German is heavily based on Martin Luther's version of the bible.

[Anonymous No.16482264]

>>16482136
>>16482136
the English language has been heavily influenced
by the KJV bible as well.

[Anonymous No.16482267]

>>16480322
If you grew up speaking a Romance language, get a dual translation. It's pretty easy to pick up, even more so if you have some Latin.

[Anonymous No.16482280]

>>16480322
is Divine Comedy even worth reading translated into English?

[Anonymous No.16482287]

>>16482280
You'll still get the images and story but the sound will be lost, which is the heart of poetry in the first place.

[Anonymous No.16482315]

>>16482287
feelsbad
Why should i even bother reading translated texts then? I just started reading Lolita, I couldn't imagine reading it in another language. What's the point if your not reading a book in its original intended language.

[Anonymous No.16482328]

>>16482315
I think it's worth reading prose in translation but there's almost never a good reason to translate poetry. The only translated poem I've read that I really liked was one translated from Chinese by Ezra Pound and he didn't even know Chinese.

[Anonymous No.16482360]

>>16482315
I actually read Lolita in Russian before English because I was gifted it and had nothing to do one weekend and had the book with me. It was translated by Nabokov himself, who was a gifted translator in his own right imo, so it's about as close as you can possibly get to a proper translation and it's still a disaster. My impression of Lolita in Russian, which is somewhat due to my own not optimal grasp of the language, was like a dream compared to the lucid reality of reading it later in English. It's honestly just incredibly bad.

Nabokov translated some of Pushkin's poetry into English and he did a much better job of it than he did of his own work. Either he had some fundamental blindness where his material was concerned or Lolita is even more a paean to the English language than Pushkin's poetry is to Russian, and Pushkin is notoriously difficult to translate to English. I mean for one thing it's metred rhyme so that is totally lost in a direct translation along with the general sound of the language, but I still get more out of a translated Pushkin poem than the Russian Lolita.

>Лoлитa, cвeт мoeй жизни, oгoнь мoих чpeceл. Гpeх мoй, дyшa мoя. Лo-ли-тa: кoнчик языкa coвepшaeт пyть в тpи шaжкa вниз пo нёбy, чтoбы нa тpeтьeм тoлкнyтьcя o зyбы. Лo. Ли. Ta. Oнa былa Лo, пpocтo Лo, пo yтpaм, pocтoм в пять фyтoв (бeз двyх вepшкoв и в oднoм нocкe). Oнa былa Лoлa в длинных штaнaх. Oнa былa Дoлли в шкoлe. Oнa былa Дoлopec нa пyнктиpe блaнкoв. Ho в мoих oбъятьях oнa былa вceгдa: Лoлитa.

it's like some bad joke

[Anonymous No.16482387]

>>16482315
translation snobs have a point in that you only get the skeleton instead of the flesh and blood but, unless you are a scholar or an aspiring artist, translations are fine, provided you read it from a competent translator.

[Anonymous No.16482395]

>>16480322
Dante invented modern Italian. His influence is comparable to the influence in English of Shakespeare, the King James Bible, and John Milton all rolled into one

[Anonymous No.16483276]

>>16480322
>learning Italian just to read Dante

>>16482045
Is that extract from wikipedia? There are many inaccuracies. The Divine Comedy was not read throughout the peninsula, and Dante was not considered a role model until 19th century. It's also false that Dante formalized modern Italian, as stated by everyone in this thread. The two models to be imitated for modern Italian were Petrarch in poetry and Boccaccio in prose. Dante was neglected as his language was considered dirty and impure by Renaissance standards. It may sound strange to a foreign speaker, but this whole idea was not even shared by all intellectuals: it was rather imposed from above by a very influential scholar, Pietro Bembo, who was also a poet. He demonstrated through his own works (which are pretty good) that the style of Petrarch was much more elegant and flexible, versatile, so everyone who had a desire to compose rhymes in Italian should imitate Petrarch. This rule remained the golden rule until Romanticism, when Foscolo and Leopardi exhumed Dante from oblivion and re-evaluated the Commedia. But throughout the Renaissance centuries even Ariosto and Tasso, despite writing epic poetry, imitated Petrarch, not Dante. So, in conclusion, it is true that Dante created modern Italian, but it's not true that he also formalized it or that he was taken as a role model.

[Anonymous No.16484159]

>>16481824
European languages which aren't English tend to be subject to much more top-down influence. French is particularly notorious for this, but you see it with Italian and German too (like the recent Rechtschriebreform). English is already too diffuse probably for that to be successful but the same attitude never existed, even I think in the Old World
BTW if you do ever try Dante in the original it might be worthwhile to find a modern Italian translation too, or even an English prose translation. Eliot used the latter to learn the Commedia iirc. But you'll be surprised how much your comprehension of the original increases just by reading through simplified Italian beforehand. There's a good student book of excerpts for this, La Divina Commedia per stranieri. It's a series in the process of coming out

[Anonymous No.16485317]

>>16482315
>>16482360
It's a shit book either way

[Anonymous No.16485336]

>>16485317
Filtered by Nabokov lmao

[Anonymous No.16485355]

>>16480322
If you're a Romance speaker, you've already won half the battle.