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/lit/ - Literature

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16446397 No.16446397 [Reply] [Original]

Is cicero right?

>> No.16446404

>>16446397
Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents and everyone is shitposting on social media.

>> No.16446407

History is a sine wave.

>> No.16446823

>>16446397
The generation that followed Cicero also coincided with a great decline in Roman culture. He was right!

>> No.16446836

>>16446823
The generation that followed Cicero had Virgil, Ovid, and Horace, retard.

>> No.16446838

>>16446397
At this time corruption among Roman nobility was at an all time high and rhe Roman republic ended along with his death.
What do you think OP?

>> No.16446849

>>16446397
I've been reading Cicero's works all week and I'm slowly becoming a Cicerofag instead of a Juliuschad as before. I'm so sorry bros.

>> No.16446853

>>16446836
That's was after several large Civil wars and a large overturn of their entire society. The Augustan period was a lucky break, it might as well have been a severe decline with Marc Anthony as a puppet of Cleopatra ruining Roman society and its legacy or continued civil wars until it fragment into irrelevance.

>> No.16446856

>>16446853
>moving the goalpost

>> No.16446859

>>16446397
It's Kickero

>> No.16446864

>>16446856
There is no moving the goalpost.
Cicero saw the decline happening in society and it led to several civil wars and proscriptions, which in act led to Cicero's own death.
That Augustus managed to lead society into a new Golden Era with annexation of Egypt and Eastern trade has nothing to do with Cicero's comment and his ability to see the decline which was underway.

>> No.16446865

>>16446397
Of course.
He also called out the jews.

>> No.16446874
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16446874

>>16446859
Cheecheroh

>> No.16446898
File: 165 KB, 1334x246, 553AFF96-90B3-4B0B-8D1F-E76894A8C596.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16446898

bros...

>> No.16446905

>>16446397
Sure why not.

>> No.16446953

>>16446898
Too bad he stood in Octavian's way

>> No.16446960

>>16446397
Where are these books? I want to read midwit core from Rome

>> No.16446968

>>16446960
Anything by Martial

>> No.16446983

>>16446953
Except he was killed by orders of Anthony because he was talking shit about him. Octavian just acquiesced.

>> No.16446986

>>16446874
ew

>> No.16446999

>>16446864
You are right anon, I was wrong to question you and my position is wrong. Cicero was right about almost everything.

>> No.16447038

>>16446999
You really are bad at this.
Continue misinterpreting me and pretending to have the high ground if it makes you feel better.

>> No.16447092

>>16447038
What more do you want from me? I reject my position and admit yours as rightfully. Cicero was a great man and he was one of the wisest on this Earth. Don't you agree with me anon?
I feel you just want to from disagreement to disagree.

>> No.16447118

>>16446823

>Maecenas sponsors several of the most famous Latin poets and writers that are still revered 2000 years later
>great decline in Roman culture

What's it like to be this much of a brainlet?

>> No.16447149

>>16447092
You said you were wrong to question me and said Cicero was right about almost everything, implying I too held that belief, which I never stated.
You are misinterpreting me.

I argued for specific points why Cicero was right, as an answer for OPs question and as an answer to why your specific examples were irrelevant.

I don't know if, you can't take criticism, if you are unable to follow an argument or if you are acting submissive as a way to feel better about yourself.

>> No.16447158

>>16447149
None of your possible assertions are right. You want to know the truth anon?

>> No.16447162

>>16447158
The trooth is that you're nothing more than the lowest sort of nigger, a contrarian

>> No.16447192

>>16447162
No anon I am not. You do inquire why?

>> No.16447215

>>16446864
>Augustus
Honestly, has there ever been a greater man in history?

>> No.16447218

>>16447215
Probably not.

>> No.16447226

>>16447218
Would you be that infamous contrarian some other anons talked about earlier? I am afraid it might be the case. RUUUUUNNNN

>> No.16447269

>>16447226
No, I'm one of the guys arguing against him and in favor of Cicero's quote.

>> No.16447292

>>16447269
>No
Well would a contrarian say the same? Anon please why do you disagreee with Cicero being right about the fall of Rome?

>> No.16447313

>>16446898
peak octavian moment, if you ask me

>> No.16447316

>>16447292
Fuck you, and I hope your family dies painfully.

>> No.16447336

>>16447316
Weew anon. I just wanted to say that I liked Cicero too and you lashed at me with the might of thousand sun. I got scared anon. I really just wanted love.

Why so much hate?

>> No.16447354

>>16446853
No, it really was the generation after Cicero.

>> No.16447372

>>16447354
What was? Cicero was put to death as a consequence of the triumvirate prescriptions.
The civil war that lead to this and the civil war that followed was a consequence of the corruption in society and the weakness of men that Cicero was talking about in OPs quote.

>> No.16447850

>>16447372
>Cicero was put to death as a consequence of the triumvirate prescriptions.
He was too vocal about the jq

>> No.16447876

>>16446397
cicero was the original boomer

>> No.16447888 [DELETED] 

>>16446397
Did Cicero really write this?

>>16447876
He was not wrong, you know?

>> No.16448055

> 39 replies

> not one mentioning that this is obviously a fake quote like that one from """Socrates""" about how badly behaved the youth are

>> No.16448224

>>16448055
Seneca's letters are full of shit like this, although rather than youth he's more on about how soft the patrician class has gotten

>> No.16448227

>>16448055
are they? The Socrates one is repeated endlessly

>> No.16448637

>>16447215
Jesus

>> No.16448643

>>16448637
Augustus was a dictator, a propagandist and a faggot.

Cicero was right the entire time and so were the optimates. Because the patricians failed, the plebs couldn't survive with the barbarians.

>> No.16448653
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16448653

>>16448055
>>16448227

Not only is it fake, but the New York Times made it up! It's classic fake news.

>> No.16448660

Based chickpea

>> No.16448678

>>16448653
>1948 NYT makes up quote to mock the notion of social/cultural decline
Well they are consistent in their aims I guess. Though maybe you made up this image to slander the NYT for your own agenda, the plot thickens.

>> No.16448686
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16448686

>>16447215
pic related, although Augustus is sort of on the same tier

>> No.16448706
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16448706

>>16448678

It's from the dreadful 'Yale Book of Quotations' if you want to check for yourself. I'm not joking. It's a very bad book.

>> No.16448727

>>16446898
Why'd it have to happen bros? Cicero wasn't a fag like the rest of them, he just loved the Republic.

>> No.16448750

>>16447876
Except he had no problem with the government actually enforcing virtue, responsibility and duty.

>> No.16448762

Everyone has to perceive their own time as bad so that they work for reform and maintenance of the good things. Otherwise things would fall apart

>> No.16448903

What is morally wrong can never be advantageous. This maxim alone could have saved mankind from travesty. Read Cicero's "on duties".

>> No.16448999

>>16448653
>Not only is it fake, but the New York Times made it up! It's classic fake news.
>became very popular in the 1960s

That was an era where it made sense to complain about what was happening with their youth. The decadence that happened in the late 1960s destroyed the West. And people used that quote to defend the decadence by saying "people always complained about the youth".

>> No.16449142

>>16448999
That was just the CIA playing 5d chess

>> No.16449157

>>16449142
What kind of 5d chess they were playing?
If America commits Sudoku, then the Soviets won't kill us since America is already dead?

>> No.16449166

>>16449142
>the CIA
What do you think they're trying to do exactly

>> No.16449198

>>16449157
>>16449166
They were practicing Weltanschauungskrieg, that they had learned from the Nazis they saved from prosecution, on their own citizens, as a way to refine it, to apply it globally. They did some crazy shit in Vietnam, for example, like putting speakers in the jungles and playing the wailing of banshees to freak the vietcongs out.

>> No.16449237

>>16449198
But why would they weaken their own country?

>> No.16449244

>>16449237
To learn how to weaken other countries to an even greater degree.

>> No.16449247

>>16449244
Who are they weakening now? They don't seem to be doing much of anything to Russia or China

>> No.16449254

>>16448999
The ”west” has always been degenerate

>> No.16449275

>>16449247
Our culture has inundated the entire world. They watch our films, listen to our music, parrot our politics.
As for other contemporary specifics, no clue. Life must be lived forwards but can only be understood going backwards.

>> No.16449279

>>16449254
Nice way of defending degeneracy. "We were always bad, why try to get better? Just let the dirty hippies do whatever they want"

>> No.16449371

It's amazing how the lives of Augustus and Jesus coincided—two men whose lives have directed the course of this world more than anyone else.

>> No.16449541
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16449541

>>16446859
kekero

>> No.16449866
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16449866

>>16446898
Cicero deserved a greater fate.
Why did it have to end like that.
Fate is a rolling bolder.
Why is life so unfair bros.

>> No.16451292
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16451292

>>16449247
>>16449237
NWO.
Dune, Global Feudal Administration.

>> No.16451317
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16451317

>>16449142
>That was just the CIA playing 5d chess
Wtf I love LaZia now

>> No.16452430

>>16446898
>does the right thing
>gets tortured to death
Perhaps Cicero's lesson will serve to right your course.

>> No.16452545

>>16447215
Cato Uticensis

>>16451317
Cato would have spoken against this

>> No.16452555

>>16451317
never stick your dick in crazy, no matter how hot

>> No.16452556

>Cicero
>Pronounced Kik-a-roo

>> No.16452568

>>16452430
Cato would have done the right thing knowing he would be tortured to death.
Also, Cicero was executed, not tortured.

>> No.16452684

>>16452568
Nah Cato killed himself because he couldn't bear the thought of getting pardoned by Caesar. He literally despised Caesar that much. So in a way, yeah, he killed himself to avoid torture (mental and spiritual, not physical).

>> No.16452846
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16452846

>>16446397

>> No.16454312

>>16446898
can I get a sauce on this?

>> No.16454344

>>16454312
I took it from the introduction to Loeb's edition of the De Legibus

>> No.16454354
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16454354

>>16454344
My bad, not Loeb's. It's from this Oxford edition.

>> No.16454383

>>16454344
>>16454354
thanks

>> No.16455301

>>16446407
nice analogy, "history is linear but has cycles", I wonder what is the "telos" (the goal)

>> No.16455893

>>16452555
trips o' truth

>> No.16455987

>>16448727
It happened because the rest of the leading men of the republic weren't able or willing to stand up to the new 'great men' who were in it for themselves or who wanted personal power. If half of the Senate had had even half of Cicero's talent and political feel and principles, Caesar never would have gained power in the first place. Hell, Cicero had even brokered a peace between Caesar and the Senate that would have preserved the republic, but Cato (principled but not talented) blew it up out of pride and spite.

I love Cicero more than I do any Roman, but preserving the republic when few of the senators had any real Republican ideals and commitments was untenable. Would that there were more would-be Ciceros and fewer would-be Caesars, but alas there were (and are) not.

>> No.16456001

>>16454312
It's from Plutarch's life of Cicero. I always read it as "He was a learned man. A learned man and a great lover of his country," though.

>> No.16456057

>>16446898
kino

>> No.16456141

>>16446898
cicero was a true chad, and one of the best wordsmiths ever. the orations are absolute kino

>> No.16456283

>>16446397
He who is never wrong is always right.

>> No.16456405

>>16446407
I saw a nice quote once, I forget where.
"History does not repeat, but it often rhymes"

>> No.16456807

>>16448727
Muh great man theory

The Republic died because the social compact it was built on fell apart. The Senatorial class was an oligarchy enriched by land, slaves and wealth from Rome's conquests, the smallholding farmer-soldier had been driven to ruin by war and competition with them, and the army and the populace was now composed of landless men whose only chance of bettering their circumstances was receiving patronage from a successful general. Why follow a senator like Cicero who was happy to see them starve in filth, when Caesar and Augustus at least offered people a grain dole, free land for veterans, a reformed and competent city administration and massive public works projects? Cicero was a dinosaur whose idea of politics was to ignore every single problem Rome faced, and so he ended up a total failure as a politician.

>> No.16458178

Bump

>> No.16458374

>>16456807
This is the real truth about Cicero. Cicero held onto Republican ideals which didnt benefit anyone who wasnt already entrenched in the elite society. Caesar was literally the man of the people who brought reform. Sitting in your palace and writing against the man out in the streets doesnt bring political reform.

>> No.16458592

>>16446397
This applies perfectly to the last generation. We are simply the generation that came after, and perhaps the next generation should have little blame at all.

>> No.16458596

>>16458592
>It's ok that we are getting progressively worse because the previous generation did it
cope

>> No.16458621

>>16458596
strawman

>> No.16459145
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16459145

>>16446397
>>everyone is writing a book

>> No.16459170
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16459170

>>16446859
SÍcero

>> No.16459199
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16459199

Pick your twink

>> No.16459973

>>16456807
>failure as a politician
>becomes consul and successful and popular senator

Populares are such fags. They were the ones pushing endless war and expansionism.

>> No.16460017

>>16456807
Based, absolutely true.

>> No.16460025

>>16459973
don't forget he quenched Catiline's conspiracy during his consulship

>> No.16460034

>>16460025
He BTFOd a ton corrupt politicians in his orations.

>> No.16460039

>>16460034
of*