/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16433470]

Am I the only one that is having a hard time getting through this because Plato appears to be advocating a lot of very evil stuff? Is it assumed he is speaking satire or not because sometimes its hard to tell.

[Anonymous No.16433484]

>advocating

[Anonymous No.16433491]

he probably wrote it after breaking up with his boyfriend or something and was in a bad mood

[Anonymous No.16433497]

Read Statesman and Laws if you want Plato's political views.
The Republic is an allegory for the self, the individual's rule over himself or slavery of himself .

[Anonymous No.16433617]

Morality is a spook, get over yourself and engage with the material, you fucking nerd.

[Anonymous No.16433700]

>>16433470
What evil stuff?

[Anonymous No.16433736]

>>16433484
FPBP

>>16433470
You don't even understand what you are looking at. Maybe The Little Prince would be a better choice.

[Anonymous No.16433738]

all the political stuff comes down to the passage where they have successfully established a just but humble society and now have to account for luxury and abundance.

[Anonymous No.16433807]

What exactly?
Plato's republic is completely in line with what most faggots would consider a very good society?
>Creative works and writings that are against my values
Censored
>Equality
Absolute
>Property
Common
>Men and women
Total equality
>foreign policy
Completely defensive
Oh also, the laws is the work with Plato's actual political beliefs, the republic is an odd work with way too many highly plausible interpretations

[Anonymous No.16433823]

>>16433497
>The Republic is an allegory for the self, the individual's rule over himself or slavery of himself
Could you elaborate?

[Anonymous No.16433837]

>>16433470
>very evil stuff

[Anonymous No.16433857]

>>16433823
that was obvious since the beginning of the constitution of the city, but take a look at the ending of the ninth book, precisely the very last speech of socrates

[Anonymous No.16433861]

>>16433700
His description of city guards.

[Anonymous No.16433948]

>>16433823
Haven't you read the book, it's said as much in the first couple of chapters?

[Anonymous No.16433958]

>>16433861
What's evil about it.

[Anonymous No.16433970]

>the republic was satire
>NOOOO there’s no way Plato could actually be an evil authoritarian who didn’t believe in equal rights

[Anonymous No.16434037]

>>16433958
What he describes is just a guard dog. Also:
>There shouldn't be families among them. Kids shouldn't know their mother and father.

[Anonymous No.16434121]

>>16433823
When you read something here, sit and stew on it and think about it and decide for yourself what is meant by it, if anything is meant at all. Anon has given you a path to greater understanding and you open your mouth like a little baby demanding an airplane-spoon. Don't you fucking dare ask for elaboration again, insect.

[Anonymous No.16434144]

>>16434121
This

[Anonymous No.16434157]

>>16434037
>ascetic guard dogs who do philosophy, work out all day and impose laws on the rest of the state.

[Anonymous No.16434318]

>>16433491
no, that was The Laws.

[Anonymous No.16434322]

>>16433470
>evil
Anon, most of the things Socrates says are already present in the modern world in some form

[Anonymous No.16434343]

>>16433807
Yeah, it's actually uncanny how modern Plato's views are (or seem to be). He's dangerously close to being politically correct.

[Anonymous No.16434378]

>>16434037
Guard dogs devote their lives to contemplation and virtue?
>There shouldn't be families among them. Kids shouldn't know their mother and father
He also says that thry should regard every citizen as their relatives. He's proposing a communitarian model which could harmonize citizens and armed forces

[Anonymous No.16434397]

>>16433807
Censoring of the arts make sense in ansociety where people devote their lives to the emulation of fictional character. Younmust remember that the works of Greek poet had the bad tendency of being interpreted theologically.

[Anonymous No.16434398]

It's not satire and none of it is evil.

[Anonymous No.16434406]

>>16434378
>>There shouldn't be families among them. Kids shouldn't know their mother and father
and, keep in mind it's only the guardians who are supposed to live this autistic communist lifestyle. ordinary people (the artisan caste) don't do any of this, and still use money and own property

[Anonymous No.16434441]

>>16434406
this. and it applies to the censorship too. Common people get all the freedoms in exchange for surrendering up all of their political power to the guardians.

[Anonymous No.16434459]

>>16434441
*to the philosopher-kings
Anyway censorship applies to them too, sincd poets are not necessarily guardians

[Anonymous No.16434530]

Here's something you need to know about most thinkers/intellectuals.

[Anonymous No.16434555]

>>16434459
it's vague but I think philosopher kings/queens are still considered a form of the "guardian" caste, which also includes the soldiers (the "silver" rank). not 100% certain though. does anyone remember?

>>16434530
that's a badass quote, for sure. how does it apply here though?

[Anonymous No.16434624]

>>16434555
Philosopher kings have to complete a very hard pedagogic path, culminating in mastery of philosophy and math. Guardians don't have to complete it, although they still have to contemplate and study for the rest of their lives.

[Anonymous No.16434648]

>>16433617
Why is it though? Every argument there is about morality being subjective is midwit at best.
>>16433837
It is though. It's like reading an ancient version of 1984.

[Anonymous No.16434697]

>>16433470
>anything that doesn’t fit into the modern liberal progressive western worldview is evil
>Uncastrated examinations of man’s nature and universal truths without petty bounds are Evil
>beauty and virtue is evil

Imo the modern world is evil, whatdya think of that?

[Anonymous No.16434703]

>>16433470
You don't have to find a thinker you agree with. I for example disagree with most of what every philosophy book advocates for but I take some things I consider true from each of them and that's okay. Dw if you don't agree with most things a thinker says just take what you consider true from it and move on.

[Anonymous No.16434707]

>>16434703
Extremely cringe.

[Anonymous No.16434754]

>>16433807
Wasn’t only the guardians that had their property in common? The republic was about social harmony and eugenic hierarchy, he blatantly says women will be included in the workforce even though they are less productive then men because they can still marginally add productivity, seems much closer to fascism.

[Anonymous No.16434757]

>>16434697
>Socrates was taught dialectic by a woman
what did Plato mean by this?

[Anonymous No.16434777]

>>16434707
No u. This isn't an argument.

[Anonymous No.16434790]

>>16434757
It doesn't count, she was an oracle and Plato believed in divination (as you can read in Timaeus). The implication is that Socrates was taught dialectics by a God, Diotima was a mere vessell. it's not surprising that in her speech she makes no argument, only assertions, which have philosophical weight only because they are justified by arguments made by Socrates in other dialogues.

[Anonymous No.16434813]

>>16434790
>Plato believed in divination
lmao
>The implication is that Socrates was taught dialectics by a God, Diotima was a mere vessell.
that makes sense though, thanks.

[Anonymous No.16434837]

>>16434757
Priestess' are pretty important to Athenian society and Platonic dialogues in general, regardless of other opinions about women in general. A great deal of Plato's inspiration comes from the Eleusinian Mysteries to which priestess' were very important.

[Anonymous No.16434890]

>>16434813
>>Plato believed in divination
>lmao
Read some Jung, you should respect the historically valid divination. Even for its mythological importance alone.

[Anonymous No.16434938]

>>16434890
>you should respect the historically valid divination
I do "respect" it, and probably so did Plato. However... *believing* in magic is something else.

[Anonymous No.16434954]

>>16433470
You can skip this book... Plato is god tier and was 2 millennia ahead of Europe in terms of science and philosophy but not in politics.

[Anonymous No.16434963]

>>16434954
Go back.

[Anonymous No.16434974]

>>16434954
>in terms of science and philosophy but not in politics.
huh, I would have thought "in terms of philosophy and politics, but not in science".

[Anonymous No.16435109]

>>16434954
It's in Republic that one of his most important pieces of his metaphysics is explained, though, the divided line, the cave, the sun, are all incredibly important.
>>16434974
You should read some Plato...

[Anonymous No.16435136]

>>16435109
>You should read some Plato...
I've literally read every dialogue at least 5 times, except maybe the Phaedo because it makes me sad. Can you please explain how Plato is a scientist?

[Anonymous No.16435139]

Why do liberals claim every literary work that was even remotely authoritarian/anti-egalitarian must have been satire? They cannot conceive the people who were intelligent did not have the same opinions of them.

[Anonymous No.16435155]

>>16435139
because enlightenment intellectuals portray history as a straight line, where men gradually become more "enlightened". so naturally if someone is remotely racist/sexist/homophobic/authoritarian it's written off as either being a sign of their times or satire. because nobody intelligent could possibly not be a liberal.

[Anonymous No.16435238]

>>16435136
>reading Plato this many times and not learning anything
The "irrational gap" between perception and explanation can be appraised historically and identified in three stages: Plato's Timaeus furnishes the first example of a scientific theory dealing with a realm of ideality that cannot be derived from immediate sensible perception; the Big Bang model is constituted on the basis of the purely geometrical notion of symmetry; and in the more recent Algorithmic Theory of Information, the analysis of the purely symbolic language expressing physical reality reveals the level of complexity of any given theory formulated in this language. The result is that the probability of the universe actually conforming with simple mathematics is zero. In a formal system, a theorem contains more information than can be found in the set of axioms of this system, and it remains undecidable. In Aristotle' s language, the theorems that can be proved within a theoretical model are already potentially contained in the system of axioms under lying these theorems.

The educational curriculum of the trivium and quadrivium which defined Western educational curriculum are largely a result of Plato's expounding of their value and the greater tradition which followed. Despite being lost to the Latin speaking part of Europe for a thousand years Plato began a rapid cultural transformation and resumed his place at the head of Western philosophic tradition which came to be called the Renaissance. Pretty much all the great mathematical and astronomical advancements in both the Islamic Golden Age in the Renaissance are rooted by the influence of Plato and Aristotle on the Islamic and Christian worlds respectively.

[Anonymous No.16435283]

>>16435238
you've admittedly impressed me with your ability to generate /x/-tier word salad, but the only relevant thing that you mentioned was the Timaeus. are you really claiming that Plato is more of a scientist than a poet and political thinker?

[Anonymous No.16435300]

>>16433470
There's no point to reading Plato in the current year unless you want to go backwards in theory. Don't listen to faggot Platonists on this either, they just want to remain in control of the thinking populace.

[Anonymous No.16435314]

>>16435139
>>16435139
Or maybe its because Plato has a reputation for being incredibly esoteric and he makes it pretty clear though why he never got involved in politics at Republic 496...

they’ve also seen the madness of the majority and realized, in
a word, that hardly anyone acts sanely in public affairs and that there is no ally with whom they
might go to the aid of justice and survive, that instead they’d perish before they could profit
either their city or their friends and be useless both to themselves and to others, just like a man
who has fallen among wild animals and is neither willing to join them in doing injustice nor
sufficiently strong to oppose the general savagery alone. Taking all this into account, they lead a
quiet life and do their own work. Thus, like someone who takes refuge under a little wall from a
storm of dust or hail driven by the wind, the philosopher - seeing others filled with lawlessness –
is satisfied if he can depart from it with good hope, blameless and content.

[Anonymous No.16435325]

>>16435300
very nice b8. i like the part where you don't give any argument and sound like an idiot

[Anonymous No.16435326]

>>16435283
>/x/-tier word salad,
Yeah if you're too retarded to comprehend what you've been told then our discussion is finished.
The first part is actually pasted from 'emeritus director of research at the CNRS in France, and is considered by some of his colleagues and students to be the greatest contemporary scholar on Platonism', not one of your retarded faggot friends.

[Anonymous No.16435336]

>>16435325
Why would I argue with cavemen? Seems like a huge waste of time.

[Anonymous No.16435338]

>>16435314
None of that implies the Republic was satire, it was an ideal form of government.

[Anonymous No.16435344]

>>16435326
Basé

[Anonymous No.16435349]

>>16435326
yeah, the reason why it sounded so schizophrenic was that it seemed like you just copy and pasted it from somewhere without giving any indication of doing so and without even staying on the topic. if you're going to plagiarize people instead of answering my question, then I agree that our discussion is over

[Anonymous No.16435406]

>>16435349
Nah, you were just too retarded to even comprehend what you were told. I expected as much. It's literally just a synopsis too lmfao. What a dumbass.

[Anonymous No.16435420]

>>16433470
Imagine copying your bait from the top goodreads question and actually having people fall for it.

[Anonymous No.16435443]

>>16435406
I understand what it says, you actual midwit. The problem is that it's unrelated to what we're talking about. Can you give a single quote from the dialogues where he writes about science in a way that makes him seem "2 millennia ahead of Europe" (>>16434954)? And please, this time put your analysis in "your own words".

[Anonymous No.16435470]

>>16435443
>I understand what it says
Can't even be honest. Pathetic.

[Anonymous No.16435471]

>>16435443
Plato was right about quantum physics "discovered" by modern science today

[Anonymous No.16435480]

>>16435443
>I understand what it says, you actual midwit.
You admitted you read Plato 5 times and didnt comprehend any of it

[Anonymous No.16435491]

>>16435470
kek. I think you're realizing now how little you really understand about Plato. despite your ability to copy and paste random excerpts from authors you've never actually read.

>>16435471
>>16435480
yep... either take your meds or it's time to go back >>>/x/

I'll be impressed if people this far gone are capable of even quoting from the Meno, let alone the Timaeus.

[Anonymous No.16435496]

>>16435443
He literally mentioned Timaeus, in which he gives his entire scientific paradigm away. It's only 100 pages long, you should read it.

[Anonymous No.16435498]

>>16433470
poor bait

[Anonymous No.16435503]

>>16433470
the Plato books are just a test, real platonic knowledge is Plotinus

[Anonymous No.16435518]

>>16435496
yes, I even acknowledged that he already mentioned the Timaeus (>>16435283) but he hasn't quoted anything from it, or analyzed anything about it. btw you're the one who should read it.

Still waiting for one of you schizos to actually quote Plato. I don't think it's going to happen today though.

[Anonymous No.16435527]

>>16435518
>>16435491
>the dumbest person on /x/ right now trying to lecture others with his reddit spacing and reddit understanding of plato
>thinks plato's politics were his greatest influence
>calls others midwits

[Anonymous No.16435549]

>>16435527
>>thinks plato's politics were his greatest influence
did I? I only said that Plato's political influence was greater than his scientific influence, which is sort of indisputable.

Still waiting for one of you midwits to quote something from the dialogues...

[Anonymous No.16435572]

>>16435549
>I only said that Plato's political influence was greater than his scientific influence, which is sort of indisputable.
Doubling down on being retarded huh?
>Still waiting for one of you midwits to quote something from the dialogues...
I did along with specific citation where it came from. I also quoted a scholar on him and he was so above your reading level that you called it incomprehensible.

[Anonymous No.16435631]

>>16435572
>Doubling down on being retarded huh?
what does this mean in schizo-speak? you can read my original post here >>16434974
>along with specific citation
from the dialogues? where did you cite them? I don't see any posts giving a number from the Stephanus pagination.

[Anonymous No.16435680]

>>16435572
>I did along with specific citation
wait are you referring to this? >>16435238

[Anonymous No.16435689]

>>16435680
I mean >>16435314

[Anonymous No.16435696]

Plato and Aristotle are yawnfests when compared to more modern philosophers and anyone who says otherwise has never read a single book on philosophy. Plato spends 200 pages explaining an idea that people like Nietzsche and Kant can explain in a paragraph.

[Anonymous No.16435704]

>>16435696
>yawnfests
how can I tell this person isn't going to bother providing quotations either...

[Anonymous No.16435710]

>>16435704
>yeah aha can you quote all 200 pages you're talking about
Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.16435741]

>>16435710
lmao. come back when you're literate

[Anonymous No.16435752]

>>16435741
Come back when you learn proper grammar.

[Anonymous No.16435753]

>>16435710
no you fucking idiot you just need to give the page(s). but I don't know why I'm explaining this to a troll

[Anonymous No.16435756]

>>16435696
You'll grow up one day

[Anonymous No.16435764]

>you're a troll
>you're underage
>you're illiterate
There really are a lot of cope posters on this site aren't there aha

[Anonymous No.16435774]

>>16435764
>you're a cope poster
and now you're one of them

[Anonymous No.16435833]

>>16435696
>>16435764
>be illiterate underage troll
>think nietzsche is better than plato
The Earth is nothing like we think, my friends. If you could only lift your head above the air like a fish out of water and see it from above, I think you would see the Earth as it really is. A sphere of many colors afloat in the midst of the Heavens and lit by the kindled sun. Like the colors used by our painters but much brighter and most pure. Sea green, gold, whiter than chalk and vast; and we are like ants around the tiniest part.
Around it in the pure starry sky revolves the great procession of the gods. The seven wanderers who stand guard over the numbers of time, the moving image of eternity. The star of Hermes, of Aphrodite, but the greatest, the star of Zeus drives his winged chariot first in the procession looking over everything and putting all things in order. The many aisles which the blessed gods take out and back, each seeing to her own work. While any soul that is able and wishes to do so follows along, since jealousy has no place in the gods' chorus. Winging around the shining Spindle of Necessity.
When the gods go to feast, they have a steep climb to the high tier at the rim of heaven, and the true heavens, my friends, are the most beautiful and exact of all visible things. There is a true living being there, immortal and divine, a spark that very immortality in every one of us, you and me, implanted in a star. We must turn ourselves from here to there, my friends, and make our minds like the mind of the world.
Now the place beyond heaven, no earthly poet has ever sung truly. Still, this is the way it is. Risky as it may be, I must attempt to speak the truth. Even the most beautiful visible motions fall far short of the true motions beyond the heavens, which trace out the true mathematical equations of the Universe.
Intelligible, beautiful, and just.
What is in this place is without color, without shape, and without solidity, a being that really is what it is - the subject of all true knowledge, visible only to the eye of the mind. The pilot of the soul, delighted at last to be seeing what is real and watching what is true, and this is where we find true Beauty, Justice, Knowledge, Being, and Courage. The meadow of the truth which only the mind can see.
And so, I have sought, as the Delphic inscription enjoins, to know myself first and foremost. For to that place the soul carries away nothing. Nothing at all. Save for its education and mode of living. And if every soul is immortal, every choice matters.
So I believe that a truly good person cannot be harmed in life, or in death. And I have spent my life among you, urging you not to care for wealth, and power, but for the wisdom and excellence of your soul.
But now, the hour for us to part has come.
I go to die, and you to live.
Which of us goes to the better lot is known to no one, except the God.

[Anonymous No.16435875]

>>16435833
Muh God is dead
Muh man is a bungee cord between an owl and my ass

[Anonymous No.16435891]

>>16435875
Wisdom alone is the right coin with which to deal, and with it everything of real worth is bought and sold. For it, Temperence, Justice, Fortitude and Prudence are a kind of preliminary purification.
As said those who preside over the Mysteries:-
'Many are the candidates seeking initiation,
but few are the perfected initiates. '
These few are, in my judgment, true philosophers; and that I may be of their number I shall strive.

[Anonymous No.16435941]

>>16435891
I know my fate, one day my name will be associated with edgy adolescents rebelling against their moms by shopping at hot topic. I'm no man, I am bismuth

[Anonymous No.16435996]

>>16435238
I'm actually trying to get my friend who is into information theory to read Plato. Interesting

[Anonymous No.16436049]

>>16435996
Inventing the Universe, Timaeus to Big Bang is really a pretty great book.

[Anonymous No.16437555]

Bump to catch up on this shit

[Anonymous No.16437607]

What idiots actually think the Republic has anything to do with politics?

[Anonymous No.16437729]

>>16435338
Different anon, but the Republic is not an ideal form of government for Plato, if by "ideal" you mean "hoped/wished for". If anything, the Republic's city is the offspring of Glaucon, who dismisses the city Socrates started with (which he calls "the city in truth") because of the lack of fancy couches and tables. Glaucon's city becomes the focus, requiring guardians to go to war for it to bring luxuries in. For Socrates, this incidentally is better for showing the nature of Justice, but it's not the best city as such.

[Anonymous No.16437805]

>>16437729
>because of the lack of fancy couches and tables.
Because of the lack of anything that a sophisticated sense of distinguishing taste yearns for, rather.