/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16423890]

what time period do you consider to be the peak of human culture?

[Anonymous No.16423896]

>>16423890
It depends, 19th century for a peak of both cultural development and self-referentiality and consciousness, medieval for perhaps some of those employed characteristics of mankind and in the West which have been lost, spoken of by someone like de Maistre or Heidegger. And then there are of course the great Greeks, but they had many flaws as great as they were, which Plato earnestly recognised.

[Anonymous No.16423917]

>>16423890
I think you're looking for /his/

[Anonymous No.16423941]

2030

[Anonymous No.16423950]

belle epoque

[Anonymous No.16423952]

>>16423941
>culture is going to turn around in less than 10 years

[Anonymous No.16423954]

>>16423952
with a violent fascist revolution it could in 20-40 years

[Anonymous No.16423988]

>>16423954
That is true, but I doubt there could "just be" a violent Fascist revolution in the money industry. In America, there will be Europe, in Europe there will be America and England, in any particular European country there will be many surrounding it, in Britain it will be both Europe and America. The only chance is that there would be some global cultural revolution as we saw with America, and then France; and the whole world following in suit. Perhaps prior Fascism could stand to America as a Cromwell did to Napoleon. Nevertheless, we never left a revolutionary age as Carlyle termed it, and we should not forget that.

[Anonymous No.16423991]

>>16423954
That is true, but I doubt there could "just be" a violent Fascist revolution in the money industry. In America, there will be Europe, in Europe there will be America and England, in any particular European country there will be many surrounding it, in Britain it will be both Europe and America. The only chance is that there would be some global cultural revolution as we saw with America, and then France; and the whole world following in suit. Perhaps prior "Caesarism" could stand to the future as a Cromwell did to Napoleon. Nevertheless, we never left a revolutionary age as Carlyle termed it, and we should not forget that. Perhaps it will be something entirely new.

[Anonymous No.16423994]

>>16423950
Second this

[Anonymous No.16423996]

>>16423890
middle byzantine/islamic golden age obviously

[Anonymous No.16424007]

>>16423896
Were the greeks as gay as people say?

[Anonymous No.16424022]

>>16424007
no, it's a jewish lie, one of many

[Anonymous No.16424027]

>>16423950
>>16423994
t. decadent moderns that like shiney tinsel
Ahh, away with this my good friends, for there is less friendship to be found in that era than a hundred years prior, and a better national withal of that epic entirely!

[Anonymous No.16424031]

>>16424007
Not that guy but sexual relationships with both men and women were both par the course for a normal male. Quite ordinary for someone to have a male lover in their youth and to get married to a woman as a man.

[Anonymous No.16424034]

>>16424007
they were less gay than they say but they were still gay

[Anonymous No.16424037]

>>16423890
Golden Age of Athens or the peak of the Roman Empire (if you were a citizen of course).

[Anonymous No.16424040]

>>16423890
19th century no question.

[Anonymous No.16424043]

>>16424007
No, obviously homosexuality was more complex then and there wasn't an all-prevalent law against it and that same universality of religion which the Bible brought in general(not to say everyone didn't have the same pantheon of the Gods and similar story's and such), but it was shamed and there were strong were strong beliefs against it by many. But that said, yes it was practiced, though you find repeated attempts to stop it such as in regards to male pubescent being training alone with no adult men allowed other than the coach. Plato also wouldn't feel the need to mention it in his dialogues if it wasn't considered okay by some, but again as I said it obviously wasn't admired or universally normative in the slightest.

[Anonymous No.16424075]

>>16424043
>male pubescent being training alone with no adult men allowed other than the coach
This is like saying heterosexual relationships are looked down upon today because men and women have to use different bathrooms. Pederasty was regulated, not shunned. People wouldn't want their sons being seduced by just some random. Like the teenage dating rituals of 1950s America, a potential lover had to make a good impression on the young man's family. It is true that there were a variety of opinions on the matter, but there's not a whole lot of evidence for positions like "it was shamed", "repeated attempts to stop it" and "wasn't admired or universally normative in the slightest". It wasn't just some tolerated subculture, but omnipresent in the canonical art and literature of ancient Greece.

[Anonymous No.16424079]

>>16424027
My dear anon, friendships were always shit, save for few lucky occurrences. At least shiny tinsel can make one put their depression aside, if even for a short time.

[Anonymous No.16424085]

>>16423890

Postwar Pax Americana, 1946-1970. The peak of objective human achievement, culminating with the moon landings. A quick slide downward began due to hippies and kikes and has gotten much worse, a perfect example of good times create weak people.

[Anonymous No.16424092]

>>16424085
kill yourself

[Anonymous No.16424113]

>>16424075
Not at all anon, much of the homosexuality that is considered "omnipresent" in ancient Greece was not sexual in the slightest, just look at Alexander the Great. And of course Plato challenged homosexuality and paedophilia on a very direct moral-spiritual accord, Aristotle simply rejects it as outright shameful and disgusting and knowingly bad, he says it is even worse for a leader to be engaging in such indulgences. And of course it is also well known the accusations of homosexuality and pederasty of one man, or city-state against the other.

And the little amount of plastic depictions we have of homosexuality is a proof in itself that it was not so common as modern historians gleefully like to propose. Again, it was obviously much more complex, but thinking it was "omnipresent" in the slightest is an a-historic opinion.

[Anonymous No.16424127]

>>16424079
No, no, I knew from the start only a true misanthrope could find comfort in the shiny baubles of such an era, rather than true friendship, but you must not ignore what is real, the fact of the world, which is about you. We see perfectly where this culture landed itself in the onset of WW1.

[Anonymous No.16424134]

>>16423952
The 2030s are up to 20s.
The radical change in this decade will be why.

[Anonymous No.16424150]

>>16424092

Why? I made an uncontroversially reasonable assertion. I think you're an unreflective, bad-faith young poster who fails to take into consideration the objective advantages of material production, together with a given sociopolitical circumstance, which collectively give rise to an objective quality of life. Perhaps you have some 19th century era in mind, as other wrongheaded posters (including you?) did. That shit sucked. They didn't have air conditioning and modern laundry machines available. I cannot overstate the importance of these two types of devices alone in their mastery over nature and drudgery.

[Anonymous No.16424163]

>>16424113
Note when I say omnipresent I don't mean that literally every Greek was involved in and obsessed with it, I just mean that it penetrates their everyday life and art to an extent unparalleled by other societies on record. Almost every major Greek poet mentions it. The Romans regarded homoeroticism in their art as a Hellenic import.

Sorry to be a pain, but can you quote the relevant Aristotle sections?

>And the little amount of plastic depictions we have of homosexuality is a proof in itself that it was not so common as modern historians gleefully like to propose.
We have an obscene amount of plastic, potted and painted depictions of it.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Pederasty_in_ancient_Greek_pottery/
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ancient_Greek_pottery_showing_pederastic_gifts_scenes
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Up-and-down_pederastic_courtship_on_ancient_Greek_pottery
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Kylix_by_Peithinos_-_Altes_Museum_Berlin
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Nude_males_in_ancient_Greek_sculpture

[Anonymous No.16424164]

>>16424127
I'm not sure if there ever was a time period where culture hasn't landed in onset of some war or similar bullshit. The peace, it is but a happy dream before we wake up to reality of humans.

[Anonymous No.16424201]

The Middle Ages

[Anonymous No.16424211]

>>16424163
>I just mean that it penetrates their everyday life and art to an extent unparalleled by other societies on record.
I think this, is also a dreadful exaggeration. As for "every major Greek poet" I cannot remember Homer or Hesiod ever mentioning homosexuality, it seems to me always to be a modern assumption.

>The Romans regarded homoeroticism in their art as a Hellenic import.
This is a very particular statement which I have never heard before, I don't mean to be a pain either but could I get a sauce for it as well? Hand and a hand.

>Sorry to be a pain, but can you quote the relevant Aristotle sections?
Relatively speaking you find it quite often throughout his works, but to give a quick example I found online, this website goes over some of his statements on it in the politics: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/arist_pol.asp

Where it is made quite clear that homosexuality was something often quite despised, for more than just it being something sensual akin to sex with a woman without impregnation, as defenders of homosexuality try to propose.

>>And the little amount of plastic depictions we have of homosexuality is a proof in itself that it was not so common as modern historians gleefully like to propose.
>We have an obscene amount of plastic, potted and painted depictions of it.
This seems to me to be false, the amount of homosexual pots is obviously many in respect to the depiction of homosexuality in other cultures, but in contrast to the many pots we do have it supposes nothing that would make one think it is common culture.

[Anonymous No.16424214]

>>16424211
Fag

[Anonymous No.16424218]

>>16424164
Then should ye not aim for reality before it is shoved upon your face? Certain very rich men prior to WW1 did and they became very rich from it, and were not harmed themselves.

[Anonymous No.16424224]

>>16424214
Go take dickdick up bumbum you latent homosexual.

[Anonymous No.16424226]

>>16424085
>A quick slide downward began due to hippies and kikes and has gotten much worse, a perfect example of good times create weak people.
The reasons for decline was started some time before this though.
>>16424150
And if you think people in this thread are arguing about air conditioners, when it’s about peak human culture, you would be wrong. Instead let’s say you took any era, and gave them air conditioners, and looked at the quality of their culture then.

[Anonymous No.16424312]

>>16424211
I said "almost every major Greek poet" including Hesiod's contemporary Theognis, as well as his predecessors Archilochus, Ibycus, . These were people significant to the Greeks. As for Homer, he cursorily references the myth of Ganymede in the Iliad, and the Greeks from at least the time of Aeschylus interpreted Achilles and Patroclus' to be pederastic, though I agree there's no direct unambiguous textual evidence for this in the Iliad itself. But I think it's noteworthy that major plays presented for the public would use this interpretation - not to mention that the speakers in the Symposium take this assumption for granted. It doesn't necessarily say anything about Homer, but I think it says a lot about Greek society that their core myths could be represented in this way as a matter of course.

>This is a very particular statement which I have never heard before, I don't mean to be a pain either but could I get a sauce for it as well? Hand and a hand.
Although these following don't explicitly describe pederasty as entering Rome through Greece, they do seem to associate it with the Greeks. I think I might have got confused with statements by Christian and Victorian historians who "blamed" Greece for introducing pederasty to Roman culture.

'It seems to me that this habit was conceived in Greek gymnasia, where these kinds of love were free and acceptable. Thus, Ennius said it well: “The beginning of shameful behavior is public nudity among citizens.”
[and later, talking about Dionysius]
'he still kept certain young men bound by love of the Greek sort'
- Cicero, Tusculan Disputations
(interestingly in this same text Cicero attributes pederastic poetry to Alcaeus, a friend of Sappho's, though none of it seems to have survived).

'For the Romans used to be very suspicious of rubbing down with oil, and believe that nothing else is so responsible for the Greeks’ softness and political enslavement as their gymnasia and wrestling schools, which engender much empty frivolity and wasted time in their cities, as well as pederasty and corruption of the bodies of the young.'
- Plutarch, Roman Questions

[Anonymous No.16424318]

>>16424211
>Relatively speaking you find it quite often throughout his works, but to give a quick example I found online, this website goes over some of his statements on it in the politics: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/arist_pol.asp
I did look at this before when I was trying to find relevant Aristotle quotes (I've looked at this website before and, while useful for primary sources on the subject, seems a bit too "gay rights-y" in its editorialising for me. Some of its readings are a stretch).

The relevant quote here appears to be:
>Neither he nor any of his associates should ever be guilty of the least offense against modesty towards the young of either sex who are his subjects, and the women of his family should observe a like self-control towards other women; the insolence of women has ruined many tyrannies.
Which seems to be against licentious behaviour with both sexes - again, we shouldn be careful not to read injunctions against pederastic sexual misconduct as injunctions against pederasty altogether: like with heterosexuality. Please point out if I'm wrong but I don't see any quotes here against homosexuality in particular.

[Anonymous No.16424340]

>>16424201
Yes I believe that the Renaissance is nothing but a pile of trash, how could you tell?

[Anonymous No.16424359]

>>16423890
Music peaked in the 20th century
Modern classical, bebop, post-punk, industrial, extreme metal, old school techno and house etc...

[Anonymous No.16424370]

>>16424359
You were torn a new asshole and alas it grew back and was torn again in that Shakespeare Bach thread recently.

[Anonymous No.16424388]

>>16424370
Not the same guy

[Anonymous No.16424404]

>>16423890
Right now.

[Anonymous No.16424503]

>>16424388
Yeah I know but you have similar beliefs. cntrl + f "Bach" in the archives and read through it. It ends with an astounding destruction of his musical likings

[Anonymous No.16424515]

>>16424503
Not similiar, I like bach and schoenberg, also doesn't surprise /lit/ don't understand serialism

[Anonymous No.16424561]

2020

[Anonymous No.16424567]

>>16424201

[Anonymous No.16424576]

>>16424567
what's this - seems painfully edwardian

[Anonymous No.16424624]

>>16423890
When demons roamed the Earth and heroes set out to slay them.

[Anonymous No.16424627]

>>16424576
lucky jim by k amis (54)

[Anonymous No.16424631]

>>16424567
This was written in the 70s when people still believed all the memes like every peasant was covered in shit and couldn't read.

[Anonymous No.16424637]

>>16424631
what?

[Anonymous No.16424638]

>>16423890
90’s

[Anonymous No.16425077]

>>16424515
How could I surprise /lit/? Nevertheless on a serious note Schoenberg is quite average, I'm not against you liking him, but people who consider him to be anywhere near of the same value as a Wagner or said Bach are fools.

[Anonymous No.16425102]

>>16425077
I agree, webern, boulez, krenek, dallapicola, babbitt, alban were better, especially his student nikos skalkottas who is criminally underrated imo was better than all of them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJKB9Z3KG_A
Schoenberg is still good tho

[Anonymous No.16425117]

13th century France

[Anonymous No.16425122]

>>16423890
Any answer other than “the present” is a HUGE cope.

[Anonymous No.16425320]

No such thing. Just a manifested organism that produces preferences based on arrested historicity. To break the historicity one must deny dogma. Why would it matter that I idolize the Ancient Greeks and pre-mafia Rome? Peak human culture if every breath you take.

[Anonymous No.16425345]

Unironically, pre-1500 BC. Ancient Egypt, Indus, Mesopotamia, etc. That's as close as humans can ever get to a genuine utopia and the feats of architecture and rich oral traditions were fantastic cultural achievements

[Anonymous No.16425376]

>>16424085
Americas greatest period was between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War

[Anonymous No.16425383]

>>16423896
This, honestly. It really depends, and just saying the present is too shallow an answer.

[Anonymous No.16425386]

>>16424637
fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.16425393]

>>16423954
This. If not, its all down hill from here

[Anonymous No.16425513]

>>16423890
coronation of charlemagne

[Anonymous No.16425516]

>>16424359
Yep, this is going in my cringe compilation

[Anonymous No.16425519]

>>16423890
the age of Númenor

[Anonymous No.16425688]

>>16425516
Seething pleb

[Anonymous No.16425962]

>>16424312
it’s interesting to note that commoners despised this practice. See Athenian court cases or plays.

[Anonymous No.16425990]

>>16425962
plays make fun of adult passives, not homosexuality in general. against timarchus is about prostitution.

[Anonymous No.16426060]

>>16425320
what a pseud take

[Anonymous No.16427464]

>>16423890
11 May 330 to 29 May 1453

[Anonymous No.16427565]

>>16425386
That was written in the 50s by an Oxford graduate & from the perspective of a Middle Ages history professor.

[Anonymous No.16427808]

>>16423896
The 19th centiry does really seem like a miraculous time. Old gods are dying, and new ones are birthing. It seems that whenever change is just being initiated or coming into being, it is the most visible. Man can participate in it while still remaining distant enough to understand what is changing.

(I compare this with cyberpunk, for example. Computing technology, corporate power, VR,etc are all more pronounced today then in the 80s, but the early birthing years of cyberspace in the 80s made for the most insightful film and literature on the topic)

Of course, what makes the 19th century so exhilarating is that rapid change- so by its very nature it was bound to end.

[Anonymous No.16427871]

>>16423890
it'd have to be pre 5th century BC, probably pre 8th. greece.