Is he the J.S. Bach of literature?

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Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:00:11 2020 No.16409240 [Reply] [Original]

Is he the J.S. Bach of literature?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:10:13 2020 No.16409277 Was he also tobacco pilled?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:11:53 2020 No.16409282 >>16409240 Didn't you know the Shakespeare was actually a group of lesbian trans women?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:37:34 2020 No.16409366 >>16409240 More like the Mozart of literature

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:39:52 2020 No.16409373 Yes

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:41:49 2020 No.16409379 >>16409240 A better question is, is J.S. Bach the Shakespeare of music and no, I don't think so. Music cannot reach the level of self-referential complexity found in text, so the greatest composer is incomparable to the greatest writer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:42:24 2020 No.16409381 File: 158 KB, 690x900, Richard Wagner painting.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16409240 Who's the Wagner of music?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:42:26 2020 No.16409382 >>16409240 That would be Milton.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:44:35 2020 No.16409385

>>16409379
>Music cannot reach the level of self-referential complexity found in text, so the greatest composer is incomparable to the greatest writer.
The idea is that music shed of the need of a linguistically articulated "self-referentiality", though it does have it(as music is very complex and to deny it has self-referentiality is a denial of music structure itself), it is in a different field to language.

Music is equally as complex as literature anon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:45:01 2020 No.16409389 >>16409381 Bruckner is basically a more competent Wagner

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:47:12 2020 No.16409394 >>16409385 I don't deny that music is even fundamentally self-referential but it does not have as many degrees of complexity as text before such meaning is lost on all (but an elite autistic few perhaps).

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:49:32 2020 No.16409403

music is less complex because it ultimately is less subjective - a great Bach fugue does veritably transcend language and thus subjective understanding, seemingly reflecting some absolute beauty or spiritual world
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RQdmnx3gl8

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:54:45 2020 No.16409418

>>16409379
>Music cannot reach the level of self-referential complexity found in text,
But text also can't reach the level of spiritual and emotional influence that music has, why do you think self-referential complexity is inherently better than that?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:55:51 2020 No.16409421 >>16409418 I'm not saying that, but the guy working with greater complexity is obviously the greater genius.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:57:58 2020 No.16409430 >>16409421 level of complexity =/= skill

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:59:01 2020 No.16409432 Music and literature joined together symbolically is objectively the most sublime form of art. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d3sVa7ZdQI

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 07:59:11 2020 No.16409433 >>16409430 In Shakespeare's case, or Jane's Joyce's case it does.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:00:00 2020 No.16409436

>>16409421
That's a ridiculous assumption to make, genius takes many forms. The ability to produce music like Bach is rarer and less learnable than prose writing of any quality. Distilling a huge breadth of emotion and experience into a 20 minute piece of music is more genius to me than writing a play

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:00:15 2020 No.16409438 >>16409433 Wtf James Joyce's* lel

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:00:19 2020 No.16409439 >>16409433 the opposite may be said to be true for Bach, then (even though his music is greatly complex).

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:03:08 2020 No.16409449

>>16409394
But don't you see that in the constant complexity of music it offers something which literature cannot grasp in the moment, but I am by no means supposing its superiority, or its equality in articulation, but I am supposing its equality of respective as part of the fine arts.

Just listen to this:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAgdd2VqLVc

Though it's going to be difficult to grasp straight away or very difficult in its entirety, the same stands for great literature really. Any great art. It's meaning, is very different from text, but they can communicate almost the exact thing, in its own transcendent way.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:03:34 2020 No.16409450 If you mean wildly overrated, then yes. His characters are ridiculous and don't act like human beings would.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:05:37 2020 No.16409461 >>16409421 I'm this anon>>16409449 But music is easily as complex as literature, do you have any idea how complex Bach's Passions are? Or Wagner's Dramas just musically speaking? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5zNH6R1zsE

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:06:58 2020 No.16409465 File: 25 KB, 600x564, smug asuka.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16409433 >Jane's Joyce

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:07:15 2020 No.16409468 File: 1.22 MB, 320x320, 1600146141777.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16409449 >just listen to this >its the Gross Fug No thanks

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:08:44 2020 No.16409476 >>16409449 >picking B**thoven as an example of great art

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:09:22 2020 No.16409480 File: 87 KB, 803x611, 1600269505291.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16409461 >>16409449 Jeeze, if you're going to post complex music, post complex music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZlB2tRyvQw

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:11:34 2020 No.16409486
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>>16409468
On second thoughts it probably wasn't the best idea to showcase the expressive power of music, but it obviously does signify its sheer complexity.

You also have to admit it's one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written, and arguably one of Beethoven's best. But all the late quartets get lumped in together. Wagner considered it the expression of the endlessly rolling world, the many hills and movements over and over. And I am called back to words of Goethe...

"Shaping—re-shaping—
The eternal spirit's eternal pastime."

Does it not express it perfectly?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:12:36 2020 No.16409491 >>16409480 >Schoenberg movie music >complex A hacked and castrated Wagner, with no soul either, devoided out of him. Schoenberg is anti-complexity, he is arch simplicity in what he wants to do.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:14:17 2020 No.16409501 >>16409389 Niggah take that back.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:19:03 2020 No.16409531
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>>16409491
If you don't understand the complexity of Schoenberg then you're just a posturing buffoon. Wagner is not complex at all. In fact its downright pathetic. As I schooled you in /classical/, I will once again show you that his "great talent" came down to the simple trick of parsimonious voice leading. Indeed this random Hamiltonian path through all the standard triads found in the chromatic scale sounds like it could come straight from a Wagner opera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-H7Duuyn3Y&t=80s

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:20:07 2020 No.16409538 >>16409480 >Schoenberg actual unironic garbage

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:21:49 2020 No.16409543 >>16409381 Goethe

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:22:19 2020 No.16409545 >>16409480 ugly jewish garbage

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:23:21 2020 No.16409547

>>16409531
Not at all, this is a ridiculous statement of an amateur. Because you suppose you know more than Schoenberg himself about music, do you not know his thoughts on Wagner? There would be no Schoenberg and wasted out a-tonality as his without Wagner's perfected balance to the furthest extent in Tristan.

Who also insult Brahms, Bruckner, Liszt, Tchaikovsky(who thought Wagner could have written symphonies "equal to those of the immortal Beethoven")... you're nothin' but a pseud man.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:26:34 2020 No.16409558 >>16409547 >you like thing >you must believe everything person who made thing thinks And you have the nerve to call me a pseud? Also have you heard Wagner's symphony? Its a testament to his total inability to write non-programmatic music.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:28:19 2020 No.16409564 >>16409547 And Tchaikovsky sucks too. No wonder that pleb with his saccharine tripe thought Wagner was some great brilliance, they were cut from the same decadent cloth. They were both degenerate fags as well.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:32:02 2020 No.16409577 >>16409547 Also who also insulted Brahms Bruckner and Liszt. I just finished calling Bruckner a more competent Wagner.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:32:19 2020 No.16409579

>>16409558
That's not what I said, I said that maybe the greatest musicians of the past 200 years weren't just liking, or even those that disliked him, didn't just acknowledge his genius and complexity because of some made up personal sentiment that you suppose. Do you think Schoenberg couldn't see complexity in music? Because he obviously saw in Wagner a supreme complexity, and again notoriously in Tristan und Isolde.

I am asking you to come right out and say that you somehow have a better musical vision than Brahms, Bruckner, Liszt, Verdi, Tchaikovsky, Strauss, Schoenberg and Puccini. So be honest.

>Also have you heard Wagner's symphony? Its a testament to his total inability to write non-programmatic music.
What, the one that he wrote casually when he was 19? Nevertheless even then it can still be seen to be a work of genius in the minutest detail, I agree Wagner did not have that same structural awareness of a Beethoven, that made it so it is organised in a continual development of perfection. But that is, if we shall say, because of Wagner's akin to Mozart. The beautiful sensitivity and relaxed awareness in every moment, he brings with extreme complexity into the detail. He considered himself after all "the last Mozartian".

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:33:22 2020 No.16409583 File: 100 KB, 280x280, 1595213971041.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16409564 >Tchaikovsky and Wagner suck and are too simple >but Schoenberg is great and complex 100% Coomer confirmed. Learn when to say NO.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:37:06 2020 No.16409598
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>>16409583
>hmmm, it seems I have no argument
>I know, I'll call him one of the wojaks. Onions, seems too played out. Doomer? No, he'd probably like that. Coomer! Eureka! I'll call him a Coomer!

And that is how this post came to be everyone.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:41:05 2020 No.16409618 >>16409598 he's right - Schoenberg is music that begun as conceptuality, not intuition, therefore it is sovlless and degenerate

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 08:41:16 2020 No.16409621 File: 88 KB, 532x668, 1584404648822.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16409598 What bugman could think so lowly of Tchaikovsky and Wagner, and think Schoenberg has any truly meaningful moments? Achk!

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 10:06:51 2020 No.16410057 bump.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 10:08:55 2020 No.16410066 >>16409543 But Goethe didn't write music.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 10:29:30 2020 No.16410160 >>16409240 He's more like Mozart, in that he was inventive, openly played with form and appealed to both connoisseurs and the casual audience.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 10:30:32 2020 No.16410164 >>16409480 >not Mozart string quintet jfl

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:09:42 2020 No.16410359 bump.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:11:35 2020 No.16410369 >>16409379 >>16409421 >music does not have the self referential complexity of text >complexity = art lmao look at this retarded pseud

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:12:42 2020 No.16410376 Also, the fact that everyone ITT is talking about classical music, as in actual classical and romantic music, is so funny to me. It’s not even close to being the most superior music genre. Or the most complex - if you’re horny for that kinda thing

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:13:38 2020 No.16410379 >>16410376 Do you mean to say there is any music more complex than in the common practice period Europe?

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:22:31 2020 No.16410421

>>16409240
More like the Handel: Anyone can steal a plot, but it's rare to make fugues of them that, even when slapdash, convey human magnificence, in adagios that console, allegros with a warm radiance. Kings enjoy such dish, despite how much less regal they look beside the original chef.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:25:34 2020 No.16410444 File: 41 KB, 128x199, 1597794673015.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] GOOOOD I WANT TO GO TO THE HECKIN PHILHARMONIC, BUT IM PLEBEAN AND CRINGE AT MYSELF, HEEEEEEEELP, PLAYLIST ONLY FUCKING TELEMANN, BACH, VIVALDI

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:33:08 2020 No.16410489 >>16410379 Of course retard. Jazz and modern classical/avantgarde.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:44:31 2020 No.16410568 >>16410489 >Jazz and Philip Glass are more complex than Bach and Mozart Please neck yourself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 11:49:08 2020 No.16410598 >>16410444 Check em.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:02:52 2020 No.16410711 >>16410568 You don’t know any music theory kid. You’re ngmi. Stop speaking, you pleb.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:05:14 2020 No.16410720 >>16410711 Not an argument, but a cope and a projection. Only the most lacking waste of education could think there is a complexity in music which exceeds the commonly called classical.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:07:27 2020 No.16410732 >>16410720 >Not an argument You didn’t give any argument in the first place, now please kill yourself you nigger faggot, you gay man, you fag, you gay, you poofta, you pansy, you gay man, you faggot, you twat, you man lover, you gay.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:08:42 2020 No.16410739 >>16409379 >t. Musically illiterate

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:08:58 2020 No.16410743 >>16410720 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgRmnmyNKaU >he doesn't know about the ancient Roman bangers ngmi

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:09:57 2020 No.16410746 >>16410743 Sounds great, but come on man this is not more complex than Bach-- which is what we're arguing about.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:10:40 2020 No.16410756 >>16409382 >larp kek >>16409389 That’s a funny way of saying “For me, it’s Bruckner.” I agree, but let’s not pretend anon. >>16409421 Pretty much everyone since the turn of the last century agrees that you’re wrong.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:10:59 2020 No.16410758 >>16409379 >Music cannot reach the level of self-referential complexity >what is a motif

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:11:05 2020 No.16410759 >>16410746 There is elegance in simplicity, a fact well known by the Romans. Only degenerate cultures view complexity as skillful.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:11:22 2020 No.16410762 File: 60 KB, 964x912, sweating pepe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16410743 Wtf guys, I'm feeling myself want to get lost in a dionysian rhythm Plato please help me!!!

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:11:32 2020 No.16410763 >>16410732 Holy based

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:14:12 2020 No.16410784

>>16409558
>Also have you heard Wagner's symphony?
It's far better than anything I've heard from Schoenberg. You brag about Schoenberg being "complex" but good music isn't just about complexity. The hard fact is that no one actually enjoys listening to Schoenberg's dissonant violin screechings.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:14:48 2020 No.16410789

>>16410759
Are you pretending to be retarded? I literally explained that the reason we're saying what is more complex and what is not is because we're arguing about what music is most complex - that is all.

However to take up what you say, Mozart is the most supremely simplistic yet no one would say he "lacks a complexity" in that depth. Rather it is the complexity of music in the classical period that allowed him to so fully express that simplicity.

And apart from any usage of the word "complexity", if you're so averse to it, the organisation of musical structures was no where near developed enough in composition or in scoring it, pre-Renaissance but especially pre-Medieval.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:15:52 2020 No.16410799 >>16410732 Yes I did, modern "classical" music or jazz stinks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:17:28 2020 No.16410809 >>16410784 >The hard fact is that no one actually enjoys listening to Schoenberg's dissonant violin screechings. uhh I do

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:18:18 2020 No.16410816 >>16410809 Show me one piece.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:18:29 2020 No.16410818 File: 29 KB, 220x344, 13967529795.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16410762 Let it run through your veins and soul

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:20:00 2020 No.16410833

>>16410789
>>16410746
>>16410720
>>16410568
You’re a fucking idiot if you think that classical music has greater technical, emotional and artistic complexity than jazz. All you know of jazz is probably just Louis Armstrong and duke Ellington, LMAO.

https://youtu.be/rLZKf6CR2dw
https://youtu.be/30FTr6G53VU
https://youtu.be/DvestPHTuWc

Jazz is superior because it’s free of harmonic constraints. It’s unpredictable yet perfectly consistent.

You’re a hack. A pseud. A mongrel retard.
Modern classical/avant-garde and jazz fucking stomps on common practice music.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:20:53 2020 No.16410837 >>16410818 Ugh- ugh! Calm that will of yours: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So8F3QToniI

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:24:38 2020 No.16410854
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>>16410833
>"You’re a fucking idiot if you think that classical music has greater technical, emotional and artistic complexity than jazz. All you know of jazz is probably just Louis Armstrong and duke Ellington, LMAO."
>click on first video
>it's literally just pots and pans dinging
>mfw

Do you really think any of this negro dithyramb is more expressive than Beethoven? I must admit though that Jazz is very funny, it makes me laugh a lot because it just sounds so funny hearing the noises move around and bang, like lmao what are you doing silly sounds. Silly black people.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:28:49 2020 No.16410885 [DELETED]

>>16410833
>It’s unpredictable yet perfectly consistent.
Consistent in what lmao? Are you retarded? I laugh because of how supremely I have won this conversation.

EVERYTHING, is nothing other than the entertaining of a simple mind that needs a gratification in the instance of the highest order, and a shoving of the most reductive little trinkets of musical motifs akin to any modern pop or rock(though that is often better for reasons that cannot be divulged into) which shall sustain your shallow curiosity.

IT'S COOMER MUSIC.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:32:39 2020 No.16410906

>>16410833
>It’s unpredictable yet perfectly consistent.
Consistent in what lmao? Are you retarded? I laugh because of how supremely I have won this conversation.

EVERYTHING, you have just posted is nothing other than the entertaining of a simple mind that needs a gratification in the instance of the highest order, and in the case of that "avant-guard" non-jazz piece a shoving of the most reductive little trinkets of musical motifs akin to any modern pop or rock(though that is often better for reasons that cannot be divulged into) which shall sustain your shallow curiosity. The end of Romanticism and the start of Modernism still could have some good works, but by WW2 the artistic development of music had been shoved into the ground. There's a reason so many like Strauss or Puccini said pot-Romanticism that "Wagner left nothing else to be composed".

IT'S COOMER MUSIC.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:33:41 2020 No.16410911 File: 1.16 MB, 854x657, 1597146432798.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16410762 EVOE!

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:34:44 2020 No.16410914 >>16410854 >>16410906 Kek, I’m not even reading this wall of text but you outed yourself as the supreme pseud. Your pea brain can’t even handle indeterminacy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:36:55 2020 No.16410928 >>16410816 Okay pseud

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:37:32 2020 No.16410933 >>16410854 >Negro Dithyramb Kekked.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:40:29 2020 No.16410955

>>16410914
>indeterminacy.
>Study Shows Jazz Actually Just A Bunch Of Random Notes Played Super Fast. According to a recent study conducted by the National Institute of Modern Music, it was determined that jazz is simply a bunch of random notes played quickly.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 12:48:45 2020 No.16411013 Let’s continue wrecking the autistic peabrained mongrel, shall we https://youtu.be/1HxuWh2ChMs https://youtu.be/jv6Q8iOPRJM https://youtu.be/_oRok5DYf54 https://youtu.be/bfbZRAUrHRI Get rekt

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:04:47 2020 No.16411132 >>16411013 I laugh, it's for brainlets.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:05:48 2020 No.16411136 >>16411013 >Oh wow, big noise, what do I do now! Honestly I'm left with an utter feeling that I am wasting my time every second I hear this stuff.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:06:45 2020 No.16411144 >>16410955 is that an onion headline

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:07:49 2020 No.16411152 >>16409240 Try Milton or Pope, Shakespeare's equivalent is obviously Beethoven

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:07:51 2020 No.16411153 >>16410816 I don't watch/read shounen much sorry.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:08:27 2020 No.16411159

>>16411013
Go away you fucking sperg. Anyone who listens to this shit is much more of a pseud than anyone who listens to classical:
>Pfft, you guys actually like Beethoven and Bach? That stuff's amateur. Here, listen to this UBER complex jazz and modernist music that's clearly superior
>*random banging on keyboard intensifies*
>O-oh yeah, I'm r-really feeling it......

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:09:21 2020 No.16411165 File: 159 KB, 701x864, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Who is the Blake of music?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:10:03 2020 No.16411175 >>16411144 Yes, it is an onions headline, expelling jewish soi.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:10:04 2020 No.16411176 >>16410833 >it’s free of harmonic constraints if freedom of constraints means that your musical output crashes into the abyss then it is not a positive thing. listen to Bach and come back

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:12:52 2020 No.16411194
File: 30 KB, 747x747, 1584697992661.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>According to a recent study conducted by the National Institute of Modern Music, it was determined that jazz is simply a bunch of random notes played quickly. A popular genre since it emerged in the late 19th century, new groundbreaking analytics have determined that, despite some prior belief to the contrary, jazz is really just a series of varying notes playing in rapid succession.
>“We spent hours feeding Jazz records into pattern-detecting supercomputers,” said Dr. Ramona Kasky, a noted musicologist. “The results were unanimous: scientifically, jazz is actually just a meaningless arrangement of notes played at high speed.”
>During the study, the National Institute of Modern Music also consulted numerous other musicologists, all of whom ultimately concluded that the genre, and all music encompassed within it, was really nothing more than cacophonies of notes played quickly.
>“My coworkers and I listened to those standards for days, hoping to find a meaning, a pattern – anything,” added Jasper Hainsworth, professor of musicology at Berklee College of Music. “Instead, we found nothing. It was quite disappointing to say the least.”
>This study is projected to have a major impact on the careers of many aspiring musicians. Several universities have already announced plans to shut down their programs relating to the study of jazz.
>“I spent years studying Coltrane, Armstrong, and Ellington and learning how to emulate their technique.” said Mary Styles, a senior studying Jazz Arts at Juilliard. “Now I know they were all just talentless fakes. Talk about a useless degree.”
>The results of the study are predicted to have an impact on the nation’s cafes.

Mfw laughing at all the pseuds who have been listening to purposely chaotic white noise this entire time have a mental breakdown.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:15:35 2020 No.16411213 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnkSFKJ4rC0 versus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqNTltOGh5c hmmm... gee, which is the superior artform?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:29:41 2020 No.16411293 >>16411194 I hope you don't think that's real...

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:36:58 2020 No.16411332 >>16411213 Yes it's pretty obvious which is better, the black guy here might be good for some background occasionally but it's so infinitely lower than Bach I think it's impossible to put it into words the separation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:50:11 2020 No.16411393 >>16409277 Tobacco pill me pls

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 13:54:34 2020 No.16411414 >>16411194 that reads like obvious satire anon

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 14:00:06 2020 No.16411437 >>16411213 I think a lot of less complex jazz suffers from being written under the influence of weed, doesn't take much for music to sound good while high.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 14:43:16 2020 No.16411684 >>16410066 >he doesn't know

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 14:46:41 2020 No.16411706 >>16411684 Please tell me anon, what did he compose!??

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 15:24:12 2020 No.16411988 >>16411165 My black metal band desu~

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 16:35:56 2020 No.16412482 >>16409379 >self-referential complexity >not able to be found in bach lmaooo

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 18:33:14 2020 No.16413488

>>16411213
>>16411332
>the black guy here might be good for some background occasionally
I love how you peabrains are literally saying
>classical music is superior because I understand it better than jazz
Kek

It’s like saying that Stephen King is superior to Shakespeare

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 18:36:24 2020 No.16413513 >>16413488 Stephen King is to literature what jazz is to classical music, it's pulpy with no real meaning or articulation. Get over yourself.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 18:37:26 2020 No.16413529

>>16413488
>>classical music is superior because I understand it better than jazz
Also not what I said, you're mentally challenged I could already tell from your opinions but to explain what I did say, there's almost no point in stating such an extraordinarily obvious and simple fact as Bach > all Jazz.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 18:44:26 2020 No.16413577 >>16409240 Overrated shit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:07:01 2020 No.16413765 >>16409240 sHACKespeare? More like the Hans Zimmer of literature lmao.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:07:03 2020 No.16413767 music threads on /lit/ are really something else

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:09:57 2020 No.16413789 >>16409480 jewish "complexity" folks, please clap. This is what that high "verbal IQ" (i.e not intelligence at all, just autistic talmudry) gets you, pure fucking garbage

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:13:13 2020 No.16413823 >>16409531 Look at this coping nigger, burgerbrained, soon enough he'll be unironically posting Pierot Dans La Lune >IcH FueHlE lUfT vOn AnDeReN pLaNeTeN Gettoutahere, pleb

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:16:34 2020 No.16413853 >>16410489 >playing around with retarded notations or overly-conceptualized pieces is "better" Then why read Shakespeare? Just read Joyce which is a meme and unreadable

>>	The Great God Pan Mon Sep 21 19:38:52 2020 No.16414018 >>16410762 Oh, whistle, and I'll come to you, my lad

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:40:57 2020 No.16414041 >>16414018 PFTTHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHHH

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:51:09 2020 No.16414107 >>16409379 Do you know what a fugue is?

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:56:50 2020 No.16414149

>>16409379
Illiterate. Every great form of art has its virtues and limitations. Music and literature happen to be perfect opposites, as music is what does not need an explanation.

Go read your shitty language poets. You're like the neckbeards who praise shitty prog rock for its complexity.

I hope you die a virgin.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 19:57:24 2020 No.16414153 >>16409480 Only Jewish composer worth listening to is Mahler, and even he's not worthy of holding Wagner's jockstrap.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:07:42 2020 No.16414231 >>16410854 based

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:07:58 2020 No.16414234

HELLO FELLLOW CLASSICALCHADS I LINK TO YOU A SUBLIME MOVEMENT OF BRUCKNER https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ctGgjAIzVtY AN IMMENSE TOUR DE FORCE DEMONSTRATING BRUCKNER’S FUGAL BRILLIANCE, ITS BEAUTY REVEALS ITSELF ONLY TO THE PATIENT ARYAN MIND. IGNORE THE JAZZNIGGER SHITTING UP OUR THREAD, BACH CREATED THE SOUL OF OUR GLORIOUS WESTERN CULTURE. WHAT CULTURE DID JAZZ INFORM? THAT OF RETARDED OBESE AMERICANS

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:12:43 2020 No.16414262 File: 14 KB, 400x300, Godzilla_Facepalm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16409379

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:18:21 2020 No.16414297 >>16414107 this >>16409379 >he didn't started with the fugues Never gonna make it

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:23:29 2020 No.16414321 File: 27 KB, 500x301, gojira face.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16409480

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:24:32 2020 No.16414329 File: 733 KB, 1039x727, 1528250175151.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16414234 >not Jochum

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:33:15 2020 No.16414393 >>16414329 I haven’t heard the Jochum. Why do you prefer it?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:39:50 2020 No.16414433 File: 6 KB, 268x284, 1563410197774.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16411194 LMAO

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:42:11 2020 No.16414446 File: 613 KB, 998x642, 1600734604834.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] If Shakespeare shaved his beard, would he be a chinlet?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:43:37 2020 No.16414455 >>16413767 conservatory students have to vent somewhere

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 20:48:14 2020 No.16414481 >>16414393 it is as best as bruckner could possibly be >great conductor in his own right >organist >catholic just take a listen I recommend the Dresden Staatskapelle recordings

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 21:22:44 2020 No.16414636 >>16409240 No, Shakespeare is too full of faults. >>16409379 Imbecile.

Anonymous Mon Sep 21 21:34:50 2020 No.16414701

>>16409480
Complex? He isn't complex.

He is formally complex, but emotionally and philosophically the simplest of the simpletons.

When choosing the next note, Schoenberg thought: "What are the formal requirements? What does my theory demand?"
When choosing the next note, Bach thought: "What note, what path will conduce me to the proper metaphysical sphere? What does God demand?"

Nothing is as easy as abandoning the burdensome and truly difficult rues of honest and profound thought and emotion in favor of pure formalistic drivel.

Schopenhauer tried to turn music into a STEM field. He failed, and is getting more and more irrelevant as time progresses. Eventually, he will be considered a mere eccentricity, a peculiar aspect of an epoch which was getting tired of itself.
Music cannot be reduced to notes. It has to contain emotion and thought, and for this a center is necessary, which is why atonalism is empty of ideas, and therefore necessarily superficial - it is soundtrack for horror movies, and nothing else.
Celibidache said some similar things in his lectures, emphasizing the phenomenology of music.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 21:37:00 2020 No.16414715 File: 21 KB, 351x478, young Leo Tolstoy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16414446 Not at all.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 21:38:52 2020 No.16414730 >>16414701 >Schopenhauer By which I meant Schoenberg! Fix'd. Needless to say, I'd never compare the great philosopher with the fraudulent composer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 21:40:29 2020 No.16414739 >>16414701 Perfectly put friend, though I'm not Schopenhaurian didn't Schopenhauer say the opposite to such a quantifying of art?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 21:41:23 2020 No.16414744 >>16414739 Sorry, you're late. >>16414730

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 21:41:56 2020 No.16414747 >>16414730 >>16414739 Oh nvm, yep agree with you completely. He's music is movie music, and even less than that for it shows the sub-par standards for what is considered the "Drama", the divine recognising ennoblement, of today.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 21 21:43:46 2020 No.16414756 File: 81 KB, 470x595, laughing devil pepe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16411194 Kekked.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 00:06:58 2020 No.16415569 >>16414153 Mendelssohn's violin concerto is pretty good too.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 00:26:44 2020 No.16415649 >>16415569 I agree, but for some reason all jewish art just always has a sort of light emotionality to it-- Mendelssohn is no exception, but I do like his.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 00:34:06 2020 No.16415681 >>16415649 >jewish art just always has a sort of light emotionality to it- What do you mean?

Anonymous Tue Sep 22 00:39:11 2020 No.16415702

>>16415681
Can't you recognise it? The most honourable and noble forms of it are always such, and the despairing and corruptive, or evil, are only known by them being positively despairing, evil and corruptive. In such a latter cases and not the "ideal", this light jewishness comes out in a normalising of the disgusting(Picasso). And you find these patterns everywhere.

Wagner goes into this in his "Judaism in Music".

Anonymous Tue Sep 22 00:52:31 2020 No.16415769

>>16415702
You mean that Jewish artists try to promote that which is disgusting or normally abhorrent to others? I guess I can understand saying this about Schoenberg but not Mendelssohn. Also, Picasso wasn't Jewish and neither were a lot of modern artists known for vulgar paintings so I don't think that would apply to Jews exclusively.

Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:03:35 2020 No.16415828

>>16415769
Wagner said once that the true or high beauty of a jewish composer, as in the case of Mendelssohn, is only reached and appreciated when understood and made in that context of his noble struggle with his jewishness. It is a similar thing, the disgusting and lowly and evil to the jew is only represented in art by the art itself being of those characteristics, contrast it with the European art of the Drama, depicting the suffering and love of life, contrary's to put it the least, but that which is evil and disgusting and lowly is put in the context of the Drama, and it elevates us; not just sensualizes ourselves.

But all jewish artists seem to have this sort of light emotion to them, in their best sense anyhow.

Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:19:19 2020 No.16415881

>>16415569

Mendelssohn's conversion to Christianity helped him somewhat in capturing the Faustian spirit but his violin concerto falls short of Beethoven's Fifth or Mozart's Jupiter symphony - or Holst's Jupiter composition for that matter.

>Mendelssohn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX7sFojuYMY

>Mozart (symphony 40 not 41)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hJf4ZffkoI

>Beethoven
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4IRMYuE1hI

>Holst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu77Vtja30c

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:22:54 2020 No.16415904 File: 315 KB, 870x1364, Human Accomplishment - Musical Figures.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16415881 That being said Mendelssohn's name still belongs among the great names of music history.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:28:33 2020 No.16415924 File: 1.65 MB, 908x723, 1599452041487.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] How can other "composers" even fucking compete? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtXN-Q_tiLk&list=RDAtXN-Q_tiLk&start_radio=1

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:44:13 2020 No.16415989 >>16410164 This, atonal or dissonant does not mean complex, I don’t love Mozart but he wrote some of the most complex music ever

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:45:33 2020 No.16415998 File: 1.03 MB, 1594x538, Mozart Eyes.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16415924 >How can other "composers" even fucking compete? Mozart's fugues > Bach's ""contrapoint"" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNrM37AYxfc

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:47:57 2020 No.16416009 >>16409366 the best post in the thread, ignored until now

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:54:18 2020 No.16416044 >>16415828 What about Mahler

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:55:04 2020 No.16416048 >>16416044 overwrought screechy kike garbage. boring beyond belief. an utter meme

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 01:55:37 2020 No.16416050 >>16416044 I thought about it, only exception I could think of, but one does notice a difference.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 02:14:49 2020 No.16416119 >>16415904 >Murray I really hate these A*glo STEM bugmen and their constant need to quantify everything.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 02:44:13 2020 No.16416223 >>16416048 I think Mahler is the composer equivalent to Nietzsche. At times shrill, overblown, obsessive, physical, self-destructive etc.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 02:48:40 2020 No.16416238 >>16409240 who would be the Pynchon of the music?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 02:51:58 2020 No.16416256 >>16409379 >self-referential complexity You just convinced me that Bach IS the Shakespeare of music >greatest composer No one said he was. That said, greatest composer > greatest writer

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 02:53:12 2020 No.16416260 File: 6 KB, 250x242, 1411289422076s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw Wagner literally counts as a theological department and area of study >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y1Ltlv0j7M Is there anything this man didn't do?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 02:55:30 2020 No.16416264 >>16416260 >Is there anything this man didn't do? not fuck other men's wives.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 03:02:22 2020 No.16416287 File: 47 KB, 470x652, smiling wagner.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16416264 Haha, yep, Sips.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 04:13:54 2020 No.16416497 What's a good book on the history of Western music?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 04:22:10 2020 No.16416528 >>16416497 Been looking for this myself, can you believe some "History of Western music" books don't include Wagner? Disgraceful and pathetic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 04:43:47 2020 No.16416593 >>16409240 It would have been nice if the "best" writer in my native language wasn't a fucking playwright

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 04:57:48 2020 No.16416667 File: 53 KB, 724x441, brahms mozart beethoven bach.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] .

Anonymous Tue Sep 22 05:04:15 2020 No.16416696

>>16416667
Well to be fair, it must be asked about the faster production of a fugue and older Baroque style, as brilliant as Bach was in it and after it; and Beethoven's extensive focus on organisation throughout the development of the symphony which one does not fine to the same degree as Mozart, whose symphonies I am not saying are any less. Just that there is a reason Beethoven's and Wagner's commissioned works were not on par with their rest, because I take the common view that the individual pieces of music as an artform was allowed more time to be designed to be worked upon.

All this works in a very interesting, and compensatory way, back and forth throughout history, however.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 06:16:48 2020 No.16416925 >>16409240 Bach's genius lies in his inhuman mathematical complexity. Shakespeare's genius lies in his deeply human complex characters or as Bloom would put it, the 'invention of the human' They're like artistic opposites.

Anonymous Tue Sep 22 06:23:58 2020 No.16416951

>>16416925
>Bach's genius lies in his inhuman mathematical complexity.
I'd contend this - if you listen even to his earliest cantatas, the music is spiritually potent despite its simplicity. Bach's genius lies in what he consistently manages to evoke, be it through simplicity or complexity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0PVBN_BPQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXMUpqSyJJo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNjAHgMMsFs
All are extremely early and relatively simple works - he wrote them when he was about 22, yet they're consistently touted as being among his finest compositions.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 06:27:44 2020 No.16416961 >>16416951 Yea i guess the inhuman complexity specifically is mostly true for his later works. Id still hold that Bach always tries to reach for something beyond the human, as opposed the Shakespeare who always looks for something within the human.

Anonymous Tue Sep 22 06:30:15 2020 No.16416971

>>16416961
>Id still hold that Bach always tries to reach for something beyond the human, as opposed the Shakespeare who always looks for something within the human.
That's a valid distinction, I agree. Bach, of course, is noted for decreeing that music should be composed for the glory of God and God alone - so there's not much space left for what is squarely within man.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 07:03:14 2020 No.16417110 >>16410489 Just kill yourself faggot

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 07:18:21 2020 No.16417176 >>16417110 Poor baby can’t understand jazz or modern classical. LMAO

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 07:38:42 2020 No.16417260 >>16409379 I hope you think this through once more, this is embarassing

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 12:00:01 2020 No.16418549 >>16416925 >Bach >inhuman I'm gonna kill you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu-9frVpssg

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 12:05:56 2020 No.16418587 File: 31 KB, 509x625, 1539739328058.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>16418549 >sei solo

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 12:06:54 2020 No.16418598 >>16418549 Sorry, didn't realize that was a piano transcription. This is the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngjEVKxQCWs

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 13:25:28 2020 No.16419136 >>16418598 I... feeel.....

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 15:04:43 2020 No.16419785 >>16410818 this pepe disturbs me

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 18:39:51 2020 No.16421241 >>16411194 just playing the wrong notes: bad musicianship playing the wrong notes but being able to explain why you played them: jazz

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 18:42:54 2020 No.16421247 >>16410743 This sounds like mexican music kek.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 18:49:12 2020 No.16421279 >>16409379 the fact ur talking about "self referential complexity" alongside bach just proves ur trolling. read g.e.b. fellas

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 22 18:49:38 2020 No.16421283 >>16409450 Elizabethan drama was never about writing characters that "act like human beings would".

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/lit/ - Literature