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16367055 No.16367055 [Reply] [Original]

How do the basic metres of other languages compare with Iambic Pentameter? I'm interested in Dante's "simple terza rima".

>> No.16367137

>>16367055
Terza rima is a rhyme scheme, not a meter. You can write in iambic pentameter terza rima if you want. I've written about eleven thousand lines in it so far, translating the Divine Comedy, with another three thousand to go. (I wouldn't recommend TR in English in general. It's designed for Italian, where rhyming is much easier.)

>> No.16367145

>>16367137
Wait so what metre is the Divine Comedy written in?

>> No.16367156

>>16367137
that's so great, what meter and rhyme scheme are you using? could you post an excerpt?

>> No.16367169

English isn't the only language the uses Iambic.

>> No.16367202

>>16367055
>>16367145
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endecasillabo

The Portuguese equivalent is the decasyllable, though it actually sounds the same as the Italian one, but we stop counting at the end of the last tonic syllable.
In Italian words almost always have their tonic syllable in the penultimate one, and Italians decided to stop counting at the very last (non-tonic syllable) which is why they call "endecasillabo" that which in Portuguese we call "decassílabo".

The accents usually fall on the second, sixth and tenth syllables. This is the ''heroic'' pattern and the one used in Dante, Camões etc. But there can be many variations, depending on what emotional effect you want to achieve.

>>16367137
Are you using any important resources that have been profitable? Did you read any books to clarify the meaning of the most difficult parts?

I have translated the first canto a few years ago and since them have been wanting to translate the whole thing. I will probably start with the Vita Nuova next year, or even perhaps this year.

>> No.16367203

>>16367055
What are the rules for counting feet in English? I never quite understood

>> No.16367208

>>16367203
Well it depends ON your foot firstly, whether it's an iamb or some other.

>> No.16367259

>>16367203
A foot is not a syllable, it's a group of syllables.
For instance, the iambic foot contains two syllables, two different accents: the first is weak, the second is strong.

pa-PA / pa-PA / pa-PA / pa-PA / pa-PA

a THING/ of BEAU / ty IS / a JOY / for E / ver.

In the end, it sounds a lot like the Portuguese decassílabo or the Italian endecassilabo. The only difference is that, if you wish to write "iambic pentameter" in Portuguese or Italian, you'd have to put the accent not only at the 2th, the 6th and the 10th (like you do in the heroic verse), but also at the 4th and the 8th syllables.
For instance, if you can read Portuguese: esTOU / posTAN/ do NO / fourCHAN / aGOra. (Estou postando no 4chan agora = I am posting on 4chan now). That's the same rhythm as the iambic pentameter has in English: pa-PA / pa-PA / pa-PA / pa-PA / pa-PA.

Iambic refers to the foot: one weak, one strong.
Pentameter means ''five meters", and it refers to the repetition: you repeat the foot five times.
An iambic pentameter is a line which contains five iambic feet.
Therefore, you can also create an iambic tetrameter, an iambic hexameter, among other such meters using the iambic foot.

And then, in addition to the iambic foot, you have the anapest, the dactyl and other feet which, in their turn, can also be arranged in successions of different lengths. Furthermore, you can combine different types of foot in the same line, thus making it more diverse.

The dactyl, for instance, has: one strong syllable, two weak syllables. Therefore, it is a different pattern that has a different sound, and a dactylic pentameter would sound different from an iambic pentameter. The number of repetitions (feet) would be the same, but the quality of those feet would be different.

Here is a dactyl hexameter:

THIS is the / FOrest prim- / Eval. The / MUrmuring / PInes and the / HEMlocks,

>> No.16367300

>>16367259
>and here I was, thinking that knowing wether to pronounce the -e or not in French poetry was difficult
Thanks, very interesting and clear explanation.
How do you know which feet to use though? I guess that in classical poetry some schemes are pretty self-explanatory but for more modern poetry? You have to know which part of a word is stressed?

>> No.16367339

>>16367300
Yes, you have to know how to pronounce it.
Sometimes, a line you "ask" you to pronounce certain words in a more unusual, or particular, way in order to make the feet sound right, and sometimes it can even admit more than one pronunciation.
Most of the time, however, it's just knowing how to pronounce the word, as well as being familiar which the meter that is being employed.

You learn it with practice, as well as with a lot of listening. If you want to get more familiar with the iambic pentameter, you can read Shakespeare's sonnets and Milton's Paradise Lost.

>> No.16367359

>>16367339
>will ask you

Fix'd.

>> No.16367399

>>16367339
Listening to poetry is a good idea, do you have any recommandation of good recordings? In a way I was lucky to never quite grasp this because it will let me reread my favourite English poets with the correct prononciation, like discovering them a second time. Stress also changes according to location, right? You have to know how Irish, American or England will stress different words, I never put too much attention to it because I've been stuck with my shitty French accent for years with no hope of improving it.

>> No.16367492

English accents differ somewhat in vowel sounds but not very much in where they place stresses
the biggest exception i can think of is that some two-syllable english words of french origin are pronounced differently between british english and american english
e.g. english ppl will say adDRESS whereas americans will say ADdress (for the noun address, i mean, not the verb)

>> No.16367505

>>16367300
>You have to know which part of a word is stressed?
Pretty much. You scan the poem, get a feel for the overall rhythm by observing how it is naturally constructed through the normal flow of stresses for the standard pronounciation of the words, and when you meet an irregular line you feel it out as to whether you need to do some eliding or not. Some poets are extremely regular, some less so.

>> No.16367591

>>16367399
>Stress also changes according to location, right?

Well, yes, but I don't think that's very important.
You are going to make mistakes, maybe, but that's part of life, and not very relevant. With practice you get used to it; also, in most poems it's rather easy to "feel" how the lines should be pronounced. If the poet is good, pronunciation shouldn't be a tough work, it should come naturally, as long as you are actually used to the meter that he is employing.

I don't know many good recordings. I don't listen to audiobooks. However, you can try John Gielgud for Shakespeare's sonnets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC29p46q7XI&ab_channel=MichelDaw
In the marvelous video above (Tennyson's poem Ulysses), Gielgud's rhythm is mostly influenced by the enjambement (when one line ''continues'' into the line below). However, between the seconds 22 and 30, he speaks in perfect iambic pentameter.

You can never go wrong with Dylan Thomas, who was probably the best poetry reader to have been recorded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6OvxH9V9MA&ab_channel=INVIGORATION

Yeats is very good, because he pronounced poetry as verse, i.e., giving great emphasis to the rhythm. Alas! He left very few recordings, only this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2FT4_UUa4I&ab_channel=brychar66

You can find many great recordings by Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot, also two very excellent readers, but they're mostly read their own poems, which were either in free verse or in more unusual types of meter.

>> No.16367655
File: 481 KB, 1600x1100, Purgatorio Canto XXX.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16367655

>>16367156
I'm writing in fairly strict iambic pentameter, terza rima. It's a pain, for the reasons I gave. I use half-rhymes sometimes, but try to take as few liberties as possible.

>>16367202
I've read most of the extant translations (Mandelbaum, Sayers, Longfellow, Hollander, etc). One problem is that you see many "scholars" just copying other "scholars", so you might get five people saying something but that doesn't make it any more reliable than just the first person saying it. But when you read enough stuff you usually get an idea of what's going on.

Here's the bit near the end of the Purgatorio where Beatrice finally appears. I think it came out quite nicely, although of course, the more you translate poetry, the more you realize it's impossible.

>> No.16367661

it's also worth noting that not every line should be forced to fit the meter of a poem precisely; variations are common
for example, in iambic pentameter, it's rather common for the first foot to be inverted, so that the first syllable is stressed, followed by two unstressed syllables (i.e. / x x / x / x / x /)
(the other feet are also sometimes inverted, but slightly less often commonly)
with time, you can find the balance between pronouncing the meter and letting the words flow in their own rhythm
most beginners probably start by too strongly forcing the rhythm of the meter over the rhythm of how the individual line 'wants' to be read, but honestly that's ok, and probably better than too much of the reverse
just be aware that ultimately a good reader reads meter with a balance of regularity and variation, and that poets achieve some of their interesting rhythmical effects by these kinds of variations (inversions, elisions, etc)

hope that helps!

>> No.16367675

>>16367655
your own translation, anon? I haven't read dante (in the original or in translation), but I agree that came out very nicely

>> No.16367679

>>16367661
>>16367591
>>16367505
Thanks a lot anons! That helps a lot, going to reread some Yeats this afternoon to put all of this into practice.

>> No.16367689

>>16367679
good luck! and i would also like to thank >>16367591 for the links; I will try to check out the yeats later

>> No.16367703

>>16367655
It is quite good; it seems to me to be as competent as other English translations of Dante that I have glanced. It reads well.
Although, as you know, Dante can't be translated into English. But one does what one can, and you are doing a fine job.
That is my favorite passage in all of literature, by the way. It's nice that you chose it.

How long did the whole thing take you? I imagine it has been a few years. You should send it to some publisher. Next year it will be 700 years since Dante's death and they will probably be interested in a new translation. He died in September, so you have one year.

>> No.16367708
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16367708

la divina commedia is only enjoyable if you read it in it's original text. i believe only italians can truly understand what a masterpiece it is.

maybe i'm bitter because every american with which i discussed Dante kept repeating that they simply saw the divine comedy as just a self insert story.

if you didn't study italian history and only see the divine comedy as a self insert self fellating religious nutjob like the people i talked to you should kill yourself

>> No.16367716

>>16367708
> comes into a thread where an anon posted his translation of la commedia, clearly a labour of love borne from deep engagement with the italian
> helpfully informs us that you should read la commedia in the italian

>> No.16367734

>>16367716
i came to tell you that his work is useless
read it in italian or don't read it at all

>> No.16367739

>>16367708
Of course it is better to read it in Italian, but it is laughable to pretend that one should not approach its traductions. The truth is that this text is so important that everyone should read it, but everyone should read it with lots of notes explaining the context. My edition is almost half notes I believe. This is the case for all the founding texts. You can read Rabelais as someone who likes to drink and laugh about poo and pee or do your homework.

>> No.16367751

>>16367716
He is correct, though.

But the other anon's work is not in vain, because he learned a hell of a lot translating the Commedia. Translation is probably the single best writing school there is, and I can guarantee that he writers much better after having translated so much from Dante, than he did before.

That's precisely the reason why I wish to translate Dante too. It has nothing to do with getting readers, although getting some money would be nice. It has to do with immersing myself in the works of the greatest of all poets with the most possible intensity (by translating it), in order to improve my own work as a poet, and let Dante's influence "work on me". No one translates 14,000 lines without suffering at least some kind of influence.

>> No.16367770

>>16367708
That's what you get for discussing literature with burgers. I read it in French and it's one of my favorite books ever. This means that this one French translation of the Commedia I read is better than most original books in French.

>> No.16367789
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16367789

>>16367703
When I started it I thought I could do the whole thing in a year, but that was about five years ago. I'm about half-way through the Paradiso now. Finishing it this year would be good, but it's slow going.

I started the Inferno so long ago, I'll be lucky if the whole thing feels homogenous. I might be tempted to rewrite the early stuff, but then I'll never be done.

>> No.16367805

>>16367789
How did you approach the task?

>> No.16367811

>>16367655
>>16367789
Fuck this is nice anon. I believe if you send even a 80% completed, unrevised translation of that quality many serious publisher would consider publishing you.
I'm pretty jelly right now but you've earned it.

>> No.16367822

>>16367751
>Translation is probably the single best writing school there is
I sat down with a physical copy of sir gawain and the green knight in middle English and started translating it to improve my middle English, was good fun.
Also, I do wish people were less weird about the whole poetry translation thing. Yeah, you aren't reading a word for word copy when you read a verse translation, that what prose translations are for. Drydens aeneid is one of the best poems in the English language and that fact is independent of whether or not it is good poetry in Latin fite me.

>> No.16367830

>>16367822
This tbdesu. In earlier times people were less autistic, they could write a poetic masterpiece closely modeled after an ancient source and cal it a translation, nobody batted an eye. Scientific translation is a thing, but poets have a right to licence as long as they make good use of it.

>> No.16367831

>>16367811
I agree. He should publish it.

>>16367789
See if some good publisher is interested. If they are, revise it after you finish it (spend one year just revising the whole thing, polishing it as much as you can - remember that Dante took 21 years to write it). After it is polished, give it to the publisher and good luck.

But I believe you can already start sending the unfinished drafts, to see if they're interested.

>> No.16367840

>>16367822
The people that act so fretful towards translations are people that don't read a lot of poetry I believe, or who don't like it very much. I'm reading some Tagore in French right now and it's incredibly powerful and beautiful.
>>16367770
Completely agree with you, which translation do you have?

>> No.16367846

>>16367840
>Completely agree with you, which translation do you have?
The Pléiade one, by André Pézard. I owe that old man some of the best hours of my teenage years.

>> No.16367855

>>16367840
>>16367739
any good english edition where there are notes explaining the historic contexts? like i want to know why Dante was so angry towards Argenti and things like that

>> No.16367863

>>16367846
>Pléiade
Very nice, I'll try to check it out once I have a little more money (in a few years ahah). The translation by Risset is also very good.

>> No.16367875

>>16367855
Dante and l'Argenti story is almost comical
they were neighbors and they kept spiting each other and the situation kept escalating until judges got involved

>> No.16367876

>>16367830
>>16367822
I agree. This whole ''fidelity'' claptrap is sheer academic vice. Fidelity is only good if you're learning the language and want to use a translation to help you read the original, or if you are an academic writing an article and need to cite something that is linguistically accurate.

If you want to read for pleasure, or to get acquainted with some of the work (specially the characters and the story), then you should read the best literary translation you can get your hands on. For Homer, read Pope, Chapman and Fitzgerald. Chapman was good enough for Keats, so it is good enough for you.
Only don't say you have read Homer. Say instead that you have read ''Chapman's Homer'', which is a very great book in itself, as Keats well knew. There is nothing shameful in reading a translation. Being a polyglot is quite important for a poet, but no one can learn all languages, and there are books which we will probably never read in the original. I don't think I will ever read Anna Karenina in Russian, or the Al-Muʿallaqāt in Arabic, yet I have learned to love these books by reading good translations of them, and the latter book will almost certainly influence my future writing due to its magnificent imagery (those old Arabs were masters of the metaphor), even though I never truly read it.

>> No.16367888

>>16367789
again i am unqualified to talk of la commedia but yes, damn, this is nice, reads v smoothly
>>16367734
>i came to tell you that his work is useless
>read it in italian or don't read it at all
who or what do you think you're correcting here? do you think anon regards his translation as a replacement for reading dante? clearly he does not, nor does anyone else here. spurred on by a beautiful work of art, he has written (is writing) another, and rather than genuflect at this lovely achievement, all you can do is call it pointless
baka

>> No.16367911

>>16367876
extremely based post. i would only quibble that
>if you're learning the language and want to use a translation to help you read the original, or if you are an academic writing an article and need to cite something that is linguistically accurate
are important enough purposes to warrant a friendlier name than
>claptrap
>academic vice
otherwise wholeheartedly agreed.

>> No.16367942

>>16367655
Great stuff, would be interested in seeing more

>> No.16367961

>>16367789
these excerpts are fantastic, i'd love to read the completed work
which of the translations you've read is your favorite, btw?

>> No.16367962
File: 337 KB, 1200x800, Purgatorio Canto II.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16367962

>>16367805
I started because I happened to come across Dorothy L Sayers' Inferno in the local library, and I thought "this is pretty famous, and she wrote it ages ago and it's still in print, so it ought to be pretty good".

So I read a bit and (sorry if this sounds arrogant) but it's TERRIBLE. I mean I'm sure she's a good scholar and all, and she writes decent prose, but her verse craftsmanship is really bad. I thought, "OK, I might not be able to do a great translation but boy, I can do better than this."

For each Canto I write out the Italian and go through all the main translations and try to get to the best meaning and just write it out in prose, line by line. Then I listen to a good speaker reciting the whole thing in Italian.

When you're turning it into verse, the rhymes are the hardest part, so the key is to write it backwards. Look at this bit from Canto II of the Purgatorio, for example.

If you just write the first stanza, the middle line ("guide") fixes what the first AND third lines of the next stanza have to be ("side" / "intensified"), and that's just impossible. You paint yourself into a corner in about three seconds.

But if you write backwards - start with the last stanza and work up - you can sort of do it. The last stanza ("flight" / "sight") only forces ONE rhyme ("light") on the previous stanza - the middle line.

Of course you tend to think of the rhymes as clusters in threes, but insofar as you write it stanza-by-stanza, backwards is the way to go.

One other factor is that stanzas with lots of proper nouns (Italian place names and things) are nightmares because all these things rhyme in Italian and don't in English. So you have to write those stanzas first and then just fit the rest round them.

>> No.16367980

>>16367962
Incredibly based anon!
I've wanted to try my hand at translation for quite some times now and I think you inspired to do it. I just have to find the right text.

>> No.16367981

>>16367962
i was looking forward to reading the sayers translation, anon. Is there one you prefer?
easy mode: on its own without the original
hard mode: for study alongside the original

>> No.16367983

Vietnamese poetry uses tone for meter, as the language is monosyllabic and has six tones. Two of them are "flat" and four are "sharp". Verse forms are structured around these factors.

>> No.16367989

>>16367962
i agree anon.
also i don't want to sound arrogant too, but as a native speaker i have to say that both Mandelbaum and Longfellow are not that good.
which is strange since they are considered some of the best, and both authors were professors of italian

>> No.16367994

>>16367983
now i'm interested. and how would you translate something like that to be as faithful as possible? must be hard as fuck

>> No.16368022

>>16367961
>>16367981
I don't want to put anyone off trying the Sayers; it might be a matter of taste. It didn't work for me, that's all.

I think Hollander and Mandelbaum are OK. Some people like Longfellow but I didn't really get on with it. He has too many archaic inversions, and he doesn't really get the fluidity. When you hear it read well in the Italian, it goes really fast.

Of course prose translations can get the literal meaning better but they lose everything that matters - they're like translating Beethoven's Ninth into something that isn't music. You have to have it in verse.

>> No.16368045

>>16368022
thx u anon and good luck with ur project

>> No.16368062

>>16367994
Vietnamese do have freeform verses, so they can just translate the meaning and fuck the rules.
But yeah, it's extremely hard.
http://chimviet.free.fr/vanhoc/thieukhanh/thkhanh01_dichvagioithieu.htm
This is an article lambasting the poor translations of historical old literature. The essence of it is that the Vietnamese language is JAMMED with nuance, and multiply that by a billion for poetry and literature.
As for an example, you can read this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Kieu
I believe it has the best translations out of all Vietnamese poetry, but trust me when I say it is nowhere near as good as the original. Many the of cultural aspects are lost as well, but that's inevitable.

>> No.16368076

>>16368062
that means vietnamese professors should be highly sought after

>> No.16368155

>>16368076
I'm not sure about the state in other countries, but in VN it's kind of a sad state of affairs tbdesu