Plato vs Guenon

[Anonymous No.16342662]

>Rene Guenon (PBUH) sauntered up to the forum. He had been awaiting this moment ever since he passed on that dark Cairo night, so many eons ago. Alhamdulillah he would finally put the Anti-Traditional Greeks in their place.

[Anonymous No.16342672]

>>16342662

>"...therefore, your own prior statements themselves contradict your current position!" Plato autistically screeched amongst a crowd of onlookers. Here at the heavenly academy, Plato had been top dog when it came to philosophizing. He had refuted Aristotle and Pythagoras, caused Aquinas to admit a crisis of faith towards the Christian God, and even got Wittgenstein tossed into the underworld (he showed God the infamous biography).

[Anonymous No.16342683]

>>16342672

>Ayn Rand ran off crying, avoiding Guenon's (PBUH) eyes as he stared straight ahead towards the object of his ire. Plato was the start of the West's metaphysical destruction. Discursive thought, categorization and specialization, even scientism started with this one man. The East was even protected from Plato's corrosive and anemic "metaphysics" for thousands of years, but in the end was overtaken by scientism, globalization and other disgusting forms of modern thought. Guenon (PBUH) knew that he was the lynchpin, the axis of evil and the first domino in the chain; it was time refute the entirety of the western deviation from Tradition.

[Anonymous No.16342693]

>>16342683

>Plato looked up with a frown. Of course he had heard of Guenon (PBUH); Plato kept abreast of any so called philosophers who had passed into the great beyond he currently resided in. He expected this, but wasn't worried -- the extent of his experience with 20th century philosophers included third rate atheists like Sarte and Camus; they had been soundly defeated with such a lack of effort that Plato wondered what happened in the future that produced such horrid thinkers.

[Anonymous No.16342696]

This is great, keep going OP

[Anonymous No.16342705]

>>16342693

>"Ah, Monsieur Guenon, I have been expecting this visit", Plato snidely remarked as the crowd parted to allow this newcomer to enter the arena. The crowd murmered, expecting another intellectual bloodbath. Guenon (PBUH) casually entered the space where Plato stood, tilting his head down in acknowledgement of Plato before responding "Plato -- while it would be incorrect to state that I am pleased to meet you, I will note that I have anticipated this. I consider you the beginning of the heterodoxy from Tradition that plagued the path of our comrades and must impress upon those listening that your "philosophy" -- despite your endeavouring to combat sophists and rhetoriticians -- is only so much sophistry and rhetoric; when it is not an attempt to outright fool the masses, it is simply a thought system that doesn't even understand why it's wrong."

[Anonymous No.16342716]

>>16342705

>Plato's eyes narrowed at this rather insulting opening from the long faced frenchman. He had dealt with rude unsophisticates before (like Marx, who simply shouted with onion and cheese bagel breath that Plato was bourgeoisie before attempting to steal his gyro), but he preferred to engage with those who understood the rules of philophical discourse (that he of course wrote). Plato replied "well, you have claimed that I am either immoral or ignorant -- would you dispute that claim"...

....................................................................

[Anonymous No.16342728]

>>16342716

A few hours later...

>"...only through Metaphysical Revelation can truth be uncovered. It is not through unfeasible and anti-Traditional methods like "reason" and "logic" (which are wholly a part of and yet not beginning to scratch the surface of the depth of Metaphysics) that truth is created" Guenon (PBUH) shot back. Plato's face turned pale. He had battled this genius French-Muslim for hours, and the frenchman's stubborn tendency to cling to a strict definition of truth evaded all Plato's queries. He looked around at the crowd -- some were beginning to sense that the master had been rocked back on one foot, so to speak.

[Anonymous No.16342741]

>>16342728

>However, Plato had another trick up his sleeve. "I believe, in contests such as these, that we can introduce a partner -- a tag team, much like the Americans do in that mockery of the great Olympian sport of wrestling".

[Anonymous No.16342748]

>>16342741

>Guenon (PBUH) looked on as Plato called out at the top of his lungs in a deep, booming voice: "I evoke SOCRATES, my great teacher in the philosophical arts". The stunned crowd looked on as the great philosopher materialized in their midst. Socrates, jacked and tan, wearing a toga that left little to the imagination, clapped Plato on the shoulder in a familial gesture of friendship.

[Anonymous No.16342759]

>>16342748

>Plato's smile grew as he knew he had backed Guenon (PBUH) into a corner. He didn't stand a chance with two great philosophers able to engage in philosophical combat, particularly because Plato had defeated every other relevant philosopher in heaven. Schopenhauer had hung himself after losing to Plato; Hegel ended up living next to a trash can fire, muttering to himself "Der Geist" over and over after his pathetic loss to Plato; Descartes took up mathematics and never studied philosophy in heaven after his intellectual destruction by Plato.

[Anonymous No.16342767]

>>16342759

>Guenon (PBUH) stood motionless and silent, his eyes closed, deep in thought. The crowd began to smell blood in the water, and many who had taken the enormous odds against Plato began to curse their greed. Even God began to wonder if Plato had won yet again.

[Anonymous No.16342773]

>>16342767

>Suddenly, Guenon (PBUH) opened his eyes with a smile. He knew exactly who to call on to finish the two foremost representatives of the Counter-Tradition in front of him -- the only person who had the intellectual horsepower and metaphysical realization that could finally settle, once and for all, for all the marbles, this degenerate and deviant thought. He was a last resort, a secret weapon, as he tended to be sometimes too much for even Guenon (PBUH) to handle. However, this was the final battle for Tradition, and he needed to pull out all the stops.

[Anonymous No.16342782]

>>16342773

>"I evoke...JULIUS EVOLA"

To be continued...

[Anonymous No.16342819]

>>16342662
>>16342672
>>16342683
>>16342693
>>16342705
>>16342716
>>16342728
>>16342741
>>16342748
>>16342759
>>16342767
>>16342773
>>16342782
I will delete this if you want me to.

So did Guenon never actually read Plato's late dialogues? Same thing with Nietzsche it seems.

See my thread explaining how Plato degraded nothing: >>16338474

[Anonymous No.16342843]

>>16342662 (OP)
>>16342672
>>16342683
>>16342693
>>16342705
>>16342716
>>16342728
>>16342741
>>16342748
>>16342759
>>16342767
>>16342773
>>16342782
I will delete this if you want me to.

So did Guenon never actually read Plato's late dialogues? Same thing with Nietzsche it seems.

I mean practically all critiques against Plato fall away when in respect to his later dialogues, see this thread about it: >>16338474

[Anonymous No.16342850]

what is this cringe Guenon fan fiction

[Anonymous No.16342878]

>>16342850
No this is a true account

[Anonymous No.16342916]

this is amazing

[Anonymous No.16342993]

>>16342782
Stop

[Anonymous No.16343048]

>>16342782
Evola is not worthy to wash Guenon's feet pbuh. Idiotic fashtrash.

[Anonymous No.16343122]

>>16342662
I am going to have fun again, and throw reality at "traditionalism". Imagine, homosexuality being common across humanity, why would such a variation exist in the human genepool, if it wasnt some advantage in prehistoric society. Therefor homosexuality, must be perfectly traditional.

[Anonymous No.16343774]

>>16343122
is Alzheimer an advantage you fucking retard?
Homosexuality is a dysfunction of our social proclivities. It's the fatherless child seeking a better masculine model.

[Anonymous No.16343820]

>>16343774
>It's the fatherless child seeking a better masculine model.
Why would they have a genetic predisposition towards doing it through anal sex, unless traditional society spend 200k selecting for it through evolutionary pressure?

You cant anwnser this question, because traditionalism requires that you ignore all human history before the Indo-European expansion and the agricultural revolution.

The problem that modern science brings to the debate is that humanity has a prehistory going back millions of years and which caused some traits and some forms of behaviour to develop or atleast maintain itself as a variation.

You can say that homosexuality is bad, or that womans sexuality needs to be controlled, or that we need to accept hierarchy or whatever you wish to include, but those are all fairly recent adoptions to larger agricultural based societies (both the growing of crops and animal husbandry).

If older, more prehistoric modes of being are lost to use, simply because our society moved on, this applies the same thing to your medieval values. to imply otherwise is to literally go back to monke.

[Anonymous No.16344127]

>>16343820
>Why would they have a genetic predisposition towards doing it through anal sex, unless traditional society spend 200k selecting for it through evolutionary pressure?
The evolutionary chain and history of the development of prostate orgasm remains a mystery and obscured. It remains a possible result of malfunction.
Homosexuality is not "bad" in that in a pure world where everyone is immaculate and perfect, but there's concrete enough statistic to show that it's a good litmus test for the dysfunction of a family and mental health issues. They're a symptom, not the cause. In searching for the "practicality" of the pleasure of anal sex in men, we miss the forest for the trees here.
What matters is providing an environment where each individual can thrive, I simply don't see how homosexuality can fit in unless they are a total coincidence, which under psychoanalytic's paradigms, they're not. What caused the bloom of sexual deviancy is a total failure at the part of the parents and all evidence point towards homosexuality being a coping mechanism.
I simply don't care about keeping traditions for tradition's sake, it's a micro form of "return to monke" which by every means a vocal cry for help from this generation's collective unconscious. This mode of living we are currently under is by all definitions non-optimum for humans to thrive.

[Anonymous No.16344590]

>>16343122
So is murder, stealing and other such things. It was not generally regarded to be useful in traditions through time but is present.

If it is present then it is a pattern of reality as much things are, which can be not conducive and therefore most cultures do not encourage. If most cultures encourage throughout time, you could somewhat assume it is part of a pattern of tradition.

[Anonymous No.16344606]

>>16343820
That is assuming there is a genetic disposition, an not just loosely related genetic evidence. For example, do all those who have a this particular gene variation enjoy bumbumsex. If not, they are either lying, genetics don't have a direct consequence or that the gene is not directly related to homosexuality ( if at all ).

[Anonymous No.16344734]

>>16344127
I am honestly not really seeing an awnser, homosexuality is obviously a product of evolutionary selection, some variation was need in a tribal group in order to survive, either because homosexuality was advantages or because the genetic structure for homosexuality also brings with it other benefits.

To go again this, would be progressive.

>>16344590
Again, if murder and theft are useless and not traditional, evolution would have long ago selected against it, clearly our society benefits from having some of its members being murderers or thieves.

>>16344606
Obviously there must be some genetic component, but even if its somehow an outside force that twists the development of the unborn child towards homosexuality, there is still no genetic pressure to create a human being completely unmoved by such outwards pressure.

---

I think the problem traditionalism faces, is that by abandoning the Biblical view of original sin, they kind of end up in a limbo.

There is no place for tradition in a species that is millions of years old and evolved from monkeys. Obviously all our values are the result of progressive evolution.

[Anonymous No.16344825]

>>16344734
But who is to say that what tradition can be observed, with its commonalities across mankind, is part or whole of this progressive evolution to which you speak.

[Anonymous No.16344937]

>>16344825
Excuse me, obviously tradition and progressive can not go together.

Unless you meant to say something else.

[Anonymous No.16345459]

>>16342993
>>16343048
>disliking Evola
> calling him fashtrash

How did you get filtered by the easiest Traditionalist?

[Anonymous No.16345600]

>>16343122
“Natural” or “occurring in nature “ has nothing to do with Tradition, which is synonymous with metaphysical truth. I think you probably don’t really understand what traditionalism is, and I’m legitimately not even saying this as an inflammatory troll statement.

>>16343820
Humanity has a prehistory
You are correct in that (especially in say Evola) Traditionalists often hold up IE civs as the first legitimate tradition, but this is often a point of contention where we start. They do reject the evolutionary model of progress and see humanity as devolving from a golden age , and science with its analysis of prehistory as primitive prior to Agriculture and nomadic people’s settling down is in conflict with that involutive character espoused by Traditions (Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Paganism, Islam). This isn’t a particularly new conflict, as it has been understood that modernism and its progressive values directly conflict with Tradition since before Guenon himself declared it.

>>16344734
This whole post is an example of naturalistic fallacy, of an uncritical belief in evolutionary selection, and is not even worth discussing

>evolution would have selected against it
>obviously all our values are the result of progressive evolution

I hate to do this, but
>>>/reddit/

[Anonymous No.16347603]

>>16342662
>writing all of this out
based OP

[Anonymous No.16348037]

>>16342843
No, Guenon most certainly did, it's just that OP hasn't actually read Guenon.

[Anonymous No.16348297]

>>16348037
I have read Guenon though. I literally called back to his first work when he enumerates metaphysical revelation

>>16347603
Thanks friend

I may continue Evola’s part tonight if I’m motivated to write more shitty fanfic

[Anonymous No.16348432]

>>16342782
Will this be continued or not?

[Anonymous No.16348604]

>>16343122
>why would such a variation exist in the human genepool, if it wasnt some advantage in prehistoric society.
Retard, animals in nature that have gay sex don't have children and thus don't pass their genes on.

[Anonymous No.16348735]

Based

[Anonymous No.16348812]

>Plato is revelation
>With these three words Plotinus silenced all discourse forever.

[Anonymous No.16349032]

>>16348812
Would Plotinus btfo Guenon?

[Anonymous No.16349141]

>>16349032
probably

[Anonymous No.16349173]

>>16349032
>>Would Plotinus btfo Guenon?
any armchair theorist can btfo a Muslim bourgeois turd like guenon

[Anonymous No.16349175]

>>16349032

>"I never wrote anything on Plotinus, and admit that I never had the time to study him closely; but I know that there are many similarities to be made with oriental doctrines...Only there is one thing that has always shocked me: this history of states that Plotinus would have attained a certain number of times in his life, and, from which, seem to have left nothing permanent, which is poorly understood from the point of view of initiation; there would have been, in any case, something very incomplete in relation to his realization." - Rene Guenon, letter to Dr.Duby, 14 December 1936, Cairo

[Anonymous No.16349239]

>>16349175
why do girls and s o y men like theosophy and perennialist so much. Is it some brain damage like nihilism preventing them from separating good from bad, so they mix everything together?

[Anonymous No.16349787]

/cairocore/

[Anonymous No.16349805]

>>16342662
>>16342672
>>16342683
>>16342693
>>16342705
>>16342716
>>16342728
>>16342741
>>16342748
>>16342759
>>16342767
>>16342773
>>16342782
Holy cringe....

[Anonymous No.16349823]

>>16349805
based...Hylic...

[Anonymous No.16349864]

>>16342728
Why do you cut out the dialogue? I was looking forward to hearing a bit of back and forth. What argument does Guenon use to show Plato that reason is folly? How does Plato question the concept of Metaphysical Revelation?

[Anonymous No.16349934]

>>16344734
>homosexuality is obviously a product of evolutionary selection, some variation was need in a tribal group in order to survive,
You really don't know anything about evolution, it's not "cut and dry" like pop scientists are making it out to be.

[Anonymous No.16350093]

>>16349864
Because he knows Guenon couldn't beat Plato, so it was best to skip the part of the story that would reveal how stupid the whole story is.

[Anonymous No.16350102]

post more guenon vids pls

[Anonymous No.16350147]

>>16348432
Nah, I'm bored and tired and am unironically just a memer, I would misrepresent Plato, Guenon, and Evola if I tried to finish this fucking thing since I'm not actually well read in any of these. It was just a shitpost.

>>16349805
>>16349864
>>16350093

It was just supposed to be a bit of meta-lit humor in the style of a bad anime. Don't judge it too harshly.

Proof in pic.

[Anonymous No.16350152]

>>16350147
No harm done. Good night, shitposter.

[Anonymous No.16351241]

>>16342782
Plato familia... I think we are done for...

[Anonymous No.16351245]

Pbuh

[Anonymous No.16351250]

>>16342662
based guenon (pbuh) fan-fiction poster

[Anonymous No.16351376]

>>16345600
>“Natural” or “occurring in nature “ has nothing to do with Tradition, which is synonymous with metaphysical truth.
Yeah, physics and metaphysics are not two completely seperate domains that dont touch, which is a bizar way of looking at the world.

You basically admit, traditionalism is a lie, but its not in your fantasy world outside of reality.

>They do reject the evolutionary model of progress and see humanity as devolving from a golden age

Something which is simply not true and can not be proven by archeology or genetics or whatever.

>modernism and its progressive values directly conflict with Tradition since before Guenon himself declared it.
Except when those progressive values are highly similare to modes of being that existed in antiquity, making traditionalism unbound from historical reality.

>This whole post is an example of naturalistic fallacy, of an uncritical belief in evolutionary selection, and is not even worth discussing
When you dont give an argument, it simply means you are to stupid to have one, I wont take it any other way.
>>16348604
>Retard, animals in nature that have gay sex don't have children and thus don't pass their genes on.
In an animal species that has extended family, one member that is not sexual reproducing, might invest his time and energy is its related family, helping it to improve and survive.


>>16349934
>You really don't know anything about evolution, it's not "cut and dry" like pop scientists are making it out to be.
Obviously I do, or you would have explained it to me, instaid of using snark.

[Anonymous No.16351501]

>>16342662
very based. write another

[Anonymous No.16352407]

>>16342662
I laughed, keep it up

[Anonymous No.16352430]

>>16342662
best thread on /lit/ in 2020
how can Hylics compete?

[Anonymous No.16352467]

>>16342662
Thanks. You have made this desolate board almost tolerable.

[Anonymous No.16353617]

>>16345600
>>16344734
>>16351376

> wasting time debating in a thread like this

[Anonymous No.16353790]

>>16349239
Theosophy is legitimate and by theosophy it is not meant blavatskyian theosophy, which Guénon, rightly, criticized. Perennialism is hinted at in Platonism itself.