/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16337623]

>All straight people are femboy sluts
BRAVO PLATO

[Anonymous No.16337640]

>>16337623
Epic thread OP

[Anonymous No.16337647]

>>16337623
is he wrong tho?

[Anonymous No.16337980]

>cocks
>gaysex
>anime

[Anonymous No.16339485]

>>16337623
Wait, he actually implied this? I might actually read Plato if he did.

[Anonymous No.16339557]

>>16337623
>the Symposium is pro-homosexuality
Laughable delusion.

[Anonymous No.16339920]

>>16339485
Yes because the Greeks believed the best way a man could prove their might was by sexually dominating another man

[Anonymous No.16340835]

>>16337623
this shitty work is responsible for the whole "all greeks were gay lmao" memeing which degenerates also use as an argument today
one of plato's worst works, it has almost no substance philosophy-wise and reads like bad fiction

[Anonymous No.16340878]

Since when do the secondary interlocutors in the dialogues have anything to do with Plato's views?
It's like saying that what Thrasymachus says in the Republic are Plato's views,

[Anonymous No.16340885]

>>16340835
>What is the Ladder of Love, identifying Love with the One, and Diotima's speech, and biographical info about Socrates, Socrates rejecting Alcibiades Homofaggotry that you and OP are to dumb to see.

[Anonymous No.16340897]

>>16340835
Idiot.

[Anonymous No.16340913]

>>16340835
>Nor will his vision of the beautiful take the form of a face, or of hands, or of anything that is of the flesh. It will be neither words, nor knowledge, nor a something that exists in something else, such as a living creature, or the earth, or the heavens, or anything that is--but subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness, while every lovely thing partakes of it in such sort that, however much the parts may wax and wane, it will be neither more nor less, but still the same inviolable whole.

[Anonymous No.16340926]

>>16340897
Plato was the biggest anti-fag in antiquity.

[Anonymous No.16340977]

>>16340885
>What is the Ladder of Love
It's cringe
>Identifying Love with the One
That's good, I already said it's not that it has no substance philosophy-wise at all
>and Diotima's speech
It's cringe
>biographical info about Socrates
We already had Thucydides mention it
>Socrates rejecting Alcibiades Homofaggotry
He does reject it, but we have Socrates praise this kind of love in some other places, e.g. "Phaedrus", and this coupled with some gay stories from the rest of the "Symposium" is, I'm guessing, what made people interpret the work as they have


>>16340913
>cherry picking
go back

[Anonymous No.16340996]

>>16340835
Christianity is semetic degeneracy

[Anonymous No.16341001]

>>16340897
Go fuck yourself retard, that doesn't mean "all Greeks were gay lol"
2000 years from now, some fucktard on a holographic imageboard is going to post some ancient American sissy hypno porn and say "lol all Americans are gay, it was, like, a religion or something"

In other news, this is why you're supposed to burn faggots. Future people will think you were a faggot by proxy.

[Anonymous No.16341017]

>>16341001
>"lol all Americans are gay, it was, like, a religion or something"
but that is true though

[Anonymous No.16341045]

>>16337623
Yes, Plato, bravo bravo.

[Anonymous No.16341053]

>>16341017
I thought Americans were obese redneck Christian racists with guns in their pockets

[Anonymous No.16341054]

>>16340996
You have to go back

[Anonymous No.16341067]

>>16341045
The biggest cringe post that /lit/ has created. I hope that the faggot who made it feels shame, especially when he sees that so many people are reposting the thing.

[Anonymous No.16341073]

>>16341053
That's half of the Americans. The other half is a bunch of blue-haired gay black socialists or something like that. From what I'm seeing on the news, both kinds of Americans are currently at war.

[Anonymous No.16341075]

>>16341045

[Anonymous No.16341081]

>>16341054
>le deus vult larper
Newfag

[Anonymous No.16341088]

>>16341053
So can we agree that it's probably ignorant to think all Greeks were gay or accepting of gays, and that is probably more nuanced than that?

[Anonymous No.16341094]

>>16341001
The denial of pederasy in Ancient Greece is one of the more bizarre trends on nu/lit/. There are many sources besides Plato that attest for it's prevalence.
I can tell by your post that the motivation is 'muh trvdition' LARPery. It is all so tiresome.

[Anonymous No.16341097]

>>16341088
Meant for
>>16341073

[Anonymous No.16341105]

>>16341067
bigot

[Anonymous No.16341126]

>>16341094
I care about accuracy. You hear people like Joe rogaine say things like 'screwing kids in Greece was totally normal', when we know pederasty was illegal in Sparta, and the practice was probably as controversial then as it is now?
Maybe I'm wrong, and mr rogaine is right? Can any history majors confirm or deny this?

[Anonymous No.16341132]

>>16341097
sure, I can agree, but I'm not the original guy you're arguing with

[Anonymous No.16342089]

>>16341126
Xenophon, who was a life-hating Platonist, says it was illegal; Aristotle, Aristophanes and Plutarch say it was not.

[Anonymous No.16342098]

>>16339920
What? No. Sodomy got you either exile or death, you dumb, ignorant fuck.

[Anonymous No.16342101]

>>16342098
Got a source retard?

[Anonymous No.16342139]

>>16342101
>http://local.droit.ulg.ac.be/sa/rida/file/2000/macdowell.pdf
Degenerates always got the rope, will always get the rope. Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.16342163]

>>16342139
I do not see anything in this text which validates your assertion, unless you are talking about sodomitical rape.

[Anonymous No.16342169]

>>16342098
cope

[Anonymous No.16342238]

>>16342163
>visits a site citing a plethora of laws against sodomy, pederasty, and general degeneracy
>I DONT UNDERSTAND HOW THIS CHANGES MY MADE UP BELIEF OF RAMPANT DEGENERACY IN ANCIENT TIMES
Julius Caesar’s political enemies started a rumor saying he was a faggot just to fuck with him. At no point in time was homosexuality seen as a good or normal thing except for this cursed time that we’re living. There’s no proof of acceptance of homosexuality in ancient times except few and far between random works of art.

>>16342169
>historical facts are cope
Miss me with your gay shit, you fucking faggot

[Anonymous No.16342302]

>>16342238
Did you even read the document you sent faggot? This would be like someone posting a bunch of legal codes outlawing heterosexual prostitution and rape and saying "look at all these laws limiting heterosexual degeneracy. Obviously sex between men and women was illegal and taboo." There is nothing there proscribing consensual, non-prostitutional sexual relationships between men. It even mentions the Greek expectations about the conduct of lovers, and famous lovers like Agathon and Pausanias.

>There’s no proof of acceptance of homosexuality in ancient times except few and far between random works of art.
If by “few and far between” you mean Archilochus, Anacreon, Ibycus, Aeschylus, Theognis, Pindar, Plato, Demosthenes, Nossis, Callimachus, Bion, Theocritus, Meleager, Catullus, Virgil, Tibullus, Horace, Ovid, Petronius, Statius, Martial, Plutarch, Strato, Lucian, Apuleius, Longus, Nonnus, Philostratus, Athenaeus, Maternus, Nemesianus, and Ausonius, then sure.

[Anonymous No.16342322]

>>16342302
>He thinks Plato wrote good things about faggots
Can’t argue with someone who doesn’t understand what he reads

[Anonymous No.16342325]

>>16342302
>>16342101
>>16342169

[Anonymous No.16342326]

>>16342302
It's amazing how many of those names said absolutely nothing positive about faggotry.

[Anonymous No.16342367]

>>16342325
>a shitpost
Lol

[Anonymous No.16342451]

>>16342322
I'm not talking about the personal opinions of Plato the author, but his depictions of the society he lived in. Lysis, Symposium and Phaedrus feature rather explicit depictions of the open acceptability of homosexual relationships. The Greek Anthology also features homoerotic love poetry attributed to Plato.
>>16342325
This is better than most /pol/ arguments regarding Greek homosexuality (the point regarding Alexander the Great is completely legitimate) but still laughable overall. The constitutive words in 'pederasty' are 'eros' (sexual love) and 'boy'. I still have not seen any evidence that anal sex was punishable by death in "most Greek city states." Anal sex was considered demeaning and dominating, which was why intercrural sex was preferred (a crucial difference between the Romans and Greeks), but I still have not seen any evidence that non-violent anal sex was illegal. It also features spurious myths like "Romans ate until they vomited then continued eating". The bit about statues also ignores that many of the statues are of young males with androgynous features in languid contrapposto poses.
>>16342326
For instance?

[Anonymous No.16342521]

SEX SEX SEX

[Anonymous No.16343064]

>>16337623
lmfao based

[Anonymous No.16343089]

>>16341001
>2000 years from now, some fucktard on a holographic imageboard is going to post some ancient American sissy hypno porn and say "lol all Americans are gay, it was, like, a religion or something"

Holy... based

[Anonymous No.16343167]

>>16337623
Based

[Anonymous No.16343240]

>>16342451
>Romans ate until they vomited then continued eating
This is what suetonius said about claudius, isn't it? It's probably senatorial propaganda but can we be 100% sure?

[Anonymous No.16343254]

>>16342302
>Virgil, Horace
Where? Read them both some time ago and can't recall anything.

[Anonymous No.16343494]

>>16343254
Virgil's second eclogue (Corydon and Alexis), third eclogue (Menalcas and Amyntas) and Nisus and Euryalus in the Aenid.

Horace's odes 1.26, 3.20, 4.1 and 4.10, to name a few.

[Anonymous No.16343730]

>>16342451
Phaedrus ends with disparaging lovers who do sexual acts, stating that if it weren't for their otherwise wise ways they wouldn't have been placed in the lowest heaven without wings, but hades and separated. Explicitly that it's because of their degeneracy that they are punished this way, robbed of their wings.
And Lysis has nothing gay in it.
Symposium >>16340878

[Anonymous No.16343787]

>>16343730
I already said that, with regard to homosexuality, those dialogues are more relevant to our discussion for their representations of Greek society (for which the secondary interlocutors are important) than for Plato's opinions. I am not trying to appeal to Plato's moral authority, I am trying to demonstrate the open existence of male homoeroticism in ancient Greece, and how Plato's dialogues reflect this.
>And Lysis has nothing gay in it.
The framing device for the dialogue is that an older boy is infatuated with Lysis, to the point of writing love poetry about him, but cannot bring himself to actually speak to the boy. Since the dialogue is about the definition of friendship, this homosexual crush offers a good contrast.

[Anonymous No.16343871]

>>16339920
That's the romans. The Greeks teased pretty boys.

[Anonymous No.16344094]

>>16341105
You have to go back.

[Anonymous No.16344136]

>>16344094
I'm from Israel

[Anonymous No.16344350]

>>16344136
>>16344136
Borderlands of Eastern Poland could make good use of your shekels bachor-kun

[Anonymous No.16344357]

>>16344350
White people get what they fucking deserve

[Anonymous No.16344365]

>>16337647
OP is wrong.

[Anonymous No.16344370]

>>16344365
What a fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.16344373]

>>16337623
SPEECH ORDER RANKING
1. Socrates
2. Aristophanes
3. Alcibiades
4. Phaedrus
5. Eryximachus
6. Agathon
7. Pausanias
Any questions?

[Anonymous No.16344376]

>>16344365
Plato was a subversive who hated traditional Greece.

[Anonymous No.16344379]

>>16344376
That was Socrates. Plato was just naive and followed him.

[Anonymous No.16344380]

>>16344376
>>16344379
Socrates subverted the subverters.

[Anonymous No.16344386]

>>16344380
In the end, his efforts still did nothing to revive the original vitality of Greece.

[Anonymous No.16344405]

>>16344376
Yes.

[Anonymous No.16344426]

>>16337623
yes, bravo Plato...

[Anonymous No.16344441]

>>16344365
>>16344426
Homophobe reactionary.

[Anonymous No.16344446]

>>16344441
He is not reactionary since homophobia is a Pl*tonic novelty not a Greek tradition!

[Anonymous No.16344559]

>>16344446
On a side note, can we discuss the irony of the word 'homophobe'? The implication is that phobias are irrational, and so is repulsion by homosexuality. But, spiders can kill you. Heights can kill you. Deep water has sharks, dead bodies contain pathogens, and the sight of blood accompanies violence. If anything, phobias are survival instincts, and homophobia is a poorly chosen word. Thoughts?

[Anonymous No.16344593]

>>16344559
A phobia is not just a normal fear or apprehension of something, it is an exaggerated and crippling reaction that interferes with everyday functioning. Being weary of spiders is fine. Not being able to tolerate the sight or even the mere thought of them is disruptive to normal living.

Regarding the politics of terms like 'homophobia' or 'Anglophobia' - whatever. I don't really care. A more accurate term might be misohomosexuality or something. There can certainly be an element of visceral fear and insecurity in some people's hatred of homosexuals though.

[Anonymous No.16344617]

>>16344593
Not that guy, but I agree with you. However, I think that some phobias are more logical than others. Someone who fears dogs acts less illogically than someone who fears spiders as it's not rare for dogs to bite people, plus their barking can be rightfully upsetting to people.

[Anonymous No.16344623]

>>16344617
Most phobias contain a reasonable seed of rationality, it's just that the perception of dnager is blown way out of proportion so that the reaction ends up being a hundred times more disruptive than the actual feared object

[Anonymous No.16344634]

>>16344623
Not all phobias are on the same level, e.g. catoptrophobia is nowhere near the same as arachnophobia, for example.

[Anonymous No.16344653]

>>16339920
>>16342098
It's both you cunts. There were different time periods and different cultures.

[Anonymous No.16345129]

>>16344357
>Polish
>White
Lol. We will replace you Westerner.

[Anonymous No.16345146]

>>16344617
Even common spiders can bite you and create small but very painful wound.

[Anonymous No.16345161]

I don't know who is trolling who anymore and people are posting out of context quotes and shitposts as sources so I'm going to look somewhere where you need to cite valid sources and have some credibility to answer questions. Unfortunately this means I have to go to reddit.

https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7lnrh5/how_common_was_homosexuality_or_what_wed_now_see/drptkm5/
tl:dr;
>In short homosexuality was definitely practiced through both consensual relationships between males of equal value, as illicit infatuations and through the exploitation of slaves and prostitutes. The homoerotic undercurrents present in a lot of Greek literature is in fact reflective of homoerotic aspects of Hellenic culture although to say that love between men was openly celebrated would be an exaggeration.

[Anonymous No.16345211]

>>16341126
The same sparta that had their new wives customarily shave their heads, wear boy clothes, and consummate marriage in the dark because they were worried that spartan men would be unaccustomed to fucking a woman?

[Anonymous No.16345251]

>>16345161
>reddit
Out.

[Anonymous No.16345261]

>>16345161
This is the true answer. Homophobic fascists who want the legacy of Ancient Greece without the homoerotica and homosexuality will seethe but it's true.

[Anonymous No.16345267]

>>16345211
Source? Sounds hilarious

[Anonymous No.16346855]

>>16344370
>>16344441
Cope.

[Anonymous No.16346890]

>>16345161
>OMFG REDDIT HAS SOOOOO MUCH SMART HISTORIAN BOIS!!! THERE IS NO WAY THEY'RE JUST REGURGITATING THE SAME EXACT NARRATIVE THEY'RE FED!!!

[Anonymous No.16346931]

>>16341094
Shut up you stupid anime tranny faggot.

[Anonymous No.16346936]

>>16337623
it is true though, think about it don't you wnat to be slight and cute and hairless with other cute guys. not even a little bit?

[Anonymous No.16346952]

[Anonymous No.16346955]

>>16346855
Fuck your cope. All pleasure is "due to nature" unless nature there means something it's not intended to.

[Anonymous No.16346976]

>>16346955
Homosexuality is literally unnatural.

[Anonymous No.16346984]

>>16344365
While Plato thought this, nowhere in Laws he proposes to outlaw homosexuality. The ecerpt you've quoted is part of his argument against pederasty, which is seen as a waaaay more damaging and immoral practice.

[Anonymous No.16346993]

>>16346952
You have to go back

[Anonymous No.16346996]

>>16346976
If it occurs, it occurs naturally. Phenomena can't occur unnaturally. Unless the argument you're making is that all homosexuals are lying to themselves and others, in which case, what's the reasoning or evidence supporting that?

[Anonymous No.16346998]

>>16346976
As unnatural as fucking a woman with a condom

[Anonymous No.16347050]

>>16346998
devout Christianity at least is morally consistent by being against homosexuality: cooming for any reason but to fill her up is just as bad as fucking a man.

[Anonymous No.16347078]

>>16346890
as if you're not also being fed a narrative, such an independent thinker

[Anonymous No.16347093]

>>16346996
Brainlet tier argument, homosexuality is objectively an evolutionary disadvantage just like retardation, hence its unnatural for the ideal human condition.
>>16346998
I don't disagree with this.

[Anonymous No.16347099]

>>16344617
>>16344623

Stfu you fags

Homosexuality is tied to a large host of mental health issues and antisocial behavior. Not to mention that, unless they're coerced by so it pressure, homos do not reproduce. It's natural for people to feel disgust towards a lifestyle that bears no fruit, such an existence is at odds with basic values of good health and flourishing

[Anonymous No.16347106]

>>16347050
Where does the Bible say having recreational sex with my girlfriend is against God’s will?

[Anonymous No.16347119]

>>16346955
>>16346998

Being weak and defective is also die to nature. The genetic lottery isn't merciful to everyone. So what? It doesn't matter if it's natural or not, it harms one ability to survive and foster a lineage

[Anonymous No.16347139]

who fucking cares if dudes like dicks up their ass, just call them faggots and move on with your miserable existence.

[Anonymous No.16347143]

>>16347093
>homosexuality is objectively an evolutionary disadvantage
What's that have to do with it being natural or not? Nature is dumb and constantly selects in favor of "evolutionary disadvantages," which is why species constantly downsize or go extinct.

Like I said before, all pleasure is "due to nature" unless nature there means something it's not intended to, and it seems like that's exactly what you're doing. You want nature to be synonymous with only your will.

[Anonymous No.16347180]

>>16347119
>having children is the ultimate good in life
Lul

[Anonymous No.16347192]

>>16337623
>Gayto

[Anonymous No.16347231]

>>16347192
He wasn't see >>16344365

[Anonymous No.16347517]

>>16347231
Gayto was making more of a statement about moderation here than same sex relations. He's saying it's ok to fuck boys in moderation but not to overindulge because it's also important to procreate.

[Anonymous No.16347574]

>>16347106
Wherever the text condemns fornication it condemns ‘recreational sex with my girlfriend’.

[Anonymous No.16347628]

>>16347517
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.16347654]

>>16347517
>>16344426

[Anonymous No.16348061]

>>16347574
You can't just say stuff like that. Every christcuck has a girlfriend these days

[Anonymous No.16348230]

>>16348061
except for the ones LARPing on /lit/

[Anonymous No.16348242]

>>16348230
Especially those. You'll notice every christcuck is steeped to the brim with sin.