Benatar's asymmetry

[Anonymous No.16290385]

>Both good and bad things happen only to those who exist. However, there is a crucial asymmetry between the good and the bad things. The absence of bad things, such as pain, is good even if there is nobody to enjoy that good, whereas the absence of good things, such as pleasure, is bad only if there is somebody who is deprived of these good things.

>(3) the absence of pain is good, even if that good is not enjoyed by anyone, whereas (4) the absence of pleasure is not bad unless there is somebody for whom this absence is a deprivation.

This makes no sense at all. How could the absence of pain be good for a non-existent being? Although we may say something like, "it is a good thing for the fetus that it was aborted, as it would have been born with severe birth defects", from the perspective of the aborted fetus there is a complete absence of value entirely. Neither bad nor good applies, as experiencing pain/pleasure is contingent upon one existing in the first place. There is no asymmetry.

One cannot be better off not being born. There is no disembodied "good" applying to non-existent nothings. This whole thing is just non-sensical to me, and I suspect David Benatar is just 'intuition pumping' his audience.

[Anonymous No.16290422]

>>16290385
You're completely right, anon—non-existence can't be predicated. Homeboy should have read Parmenides.

[Anonymous No.16290835]

How hard is it for you natalist retards?

1. child is born and suffers (this is bad)
2. child isn't born and doesn't suffer (this is good)
3. it's not a bad thing the unborn child doesn't feel pleasure, because you must exist in order to be deprived of pleasure

[Anonymous No.16290860]

>>16290835
>child isn't born and doesn't suffer (this is good)
Incorrect, it is neither good nor bad.

[Anonymous No.16290867]

>>16290835
where is the 'child is born and doesn't suffer' option?

[Anonymous No.16290879]

>>16290835
>suffering bad
The absolute state of anti-nutters

[Anonymous No.16290881]

>>16290385
Let’s rephrase that: “Non-existence is better than a life full of unnecessary suffering”.
I don’t agree with the idea that “all life is suffering and should therefore be prevented”, but there are cases that make me understand this way of thinking.
“Life is suffering” is an extremely oversimplified statement and just as wrong and confusing as “suffering is good”,

[Anonymous No.16290887]

>>16290385
>This makes no sense at all. How could the absence of pain be good for a non-existent being?
I would assume he predicates goodness to the state of affairs, not to the dispositions of any persons. The lack of pain itself is what's good.

[Anonymous No.16290894]

>>16290385
People who disagree with this just haven't experienced enough suffering or pain to change their mind. It's that simple.
If someone suffers enough in life and still decides to put more people in the world they are literally sociopaths. People who suffered manageable pain and decide to do so aren't to fault though. It's not like they could be convinced rationally that life is unbearable for some.

[Anonymous No.16290896]

>>16290835
How does a non-existent being enjoy the benefits of not-suffering?

[Anonymous No.16290909]

>this is your brain on Benatarism

[Anonymous No.16290918]

>>16290881
>“Non-existence is better than a life full of unnecessary suffering”.

Yes, we as already existent beings can make a judgement on the situation. We can say, "it is better the child wasn't born into unnecessary suffering", but that is just us and our judgments. For the 'child-to-be', there is no better off or worse off, there is nothing as he or she IS nothing. Nobody is better off by not being born. Something needs to exist in the first place for welfare states to apply to them.

And likewise we can just as well say "non-existence was not better than a life full of pleasure", so there is no asymmetry.

Again, benatar is just appealing to the intuitions and depressives and suicidals who regret their own births. His fans think, "exactly, my life sucked and if I weren't born I wouldn't miss out on the pleasures in my life", but for mentally healthy people they think the opposite "I'm glad I'm born I would have missed the good in my life".

There is no actual asymmetry.

[Anonymous No.16290924]

>>16290887
>I would assume he predicates goodness to the state of affairs, not to the dispositions of any persons. The lack of pain itself is what's good.

No because he says we should be indifferent to producing a life of net pleasure, or even totally pleasure. If it was based on the state of affairs then he would have to say a world in which a child was not born, who would have lived a good pleasurable life is a worse one than one in which it isn't

[Anonymous No.16290925]

>>16290894
Your problem is that you fail to see value in suffering. Suffering is an essential element of spiritual development. A life of pleasure and complete happiness will never get you to touch the divine, you will merely scratch the surface.
The soul of man is sculpted by pain.
And by that I'm not talking about God necessarily.
Pain is essential to understand and appreciate pleasure and goodness. Do you not love the water you drink after a long thirst? Do you care that it is warm, that it doesn't taste too good?
No, you enjoy this water as if it was the purest of all, because suffering allowed you to see value in the unexceptional and mediocre.

[Anonymous No.16290941]

>>16290894
>my son, I have suffered terribly throughout my life going through forced labor under a brutal communist regime but I have kept pushing through after all the years and finally got the green card for you so that you may live a more comfortable and honorable life in the first world as an upstanding citizen
>dad, you're a sociopath for doing this

[Anonymous No.16290946]

Antinatalism is the culmination of anglo philosophy

[Anonymous No.16290949]

>>16290941

What a photo, wow. I wonder what their conversations are like.

[Anonymous No.16290963]

>>16290924
>No because he says we should be indifferent to producing a life of net pleasure, or even totally pleasure. If it was based on the state of affairs then he would have to say a world in which a child was not born, who would have lived a good pleasurable life is a worse one than one in which it isn't
But as you said in the OP he thinks that the absence of pleasure is only a bad state of affairs only if there is somebody who is deprived of it, so your inference doesn't follow.

[Anonymous No.16290970]

>>16290918
True, this kind of “asymmetry” doesn’t make much sense, but I don’t believe happiness can simply compensate for some serious suffering.
>Again, benatar is just appealing...
This is probably true as well, although I don’t like how these people’s opinions/feelings are completely ignored in discussions like this one because “they’re wrong” in happy people’s eyes.

[Anonymous No.16290972]

>>16290949
>After his wife died, the man had no one but his only son as family. He faced a lot of hardship toiling hard to raise him. Despite their unfortunate circumstances, the father realized the importance of education and he wanted his son to receive the best of the best. “My father is my biggest pride. Thank you for letting me finish my studies”, the son gleams with gratitude on his graduation day. He owes his success to his father’s perseverance. The graduate is a Hmong from Thailand. As Hmongs are poor, Hill tribesmen don’t often finish school. His father had sold all his belongings to fund his son’s education.

[Anonymous No.16291009]

>>16290972
What a man. I hope his son will use his gender studies degree well.

[Anonymous No.16291024]

>>16291009
>gender studies existing in an asian university
lol

[Anonymous No.16291041]

>>16290941
Why did he have this child in a dictatorial regime? What if he had failed? What if his child was taken by this regime and sold for organs or whatever other horrifying shit they would do to a child in that kind of maniac dictator society? Great, he made a bet and somehow his infinite struggle managed to send this child to the first world (where he still might end up being a drug addict cleaning toilets or some other thing). Of course his self sacrifice is laudable, but the initial decision of procreating in that situation, if it was a conscious and non accidental one, is definitely sociopathy.
>>16290925
Yeah I don't really give a fuck about your "no pain no gain" shit, because feeling thirsty or sad sometimes is not the same as living with chronic pain or face starvation or whatever other multitude of horrible things. All examples you came up with, unsurprisingly, involve manageable pain. It's what I'm telling you. If you ever experience something horrible that doesn't teach you anything besides how cruel life can be, you will not have children unless you're a sociopath.

[Anonymous No.16291065]

>>16290972
Absolute legend of a father.

[Anonymous No.16291073]

>>16290422
thread

[Anonymous No.16291082]

>>16291065
Another sociopath. I really don't understand you people. You really don't see that for each case like this there are countless children that starved to death. This is like the extreme examples anti-natalists would give and you people would say are unreal. I just looked up the story.

Literally a minority isolated ostracized people within thailand, mother dies during birth, father has to sell everything to send his child to university and this all somehow works (we have no idea of the pain and struggle these people felt or will feel for the rest of their lives). Some people on the other side of the world feel happy about this over the internet because it's a great motivational story.

I just see this as two human beings who suffered immensely. None of you would choose to be born as that man or that man's son instead of the life you currently have, yet you proudly say it's a great thing that he had that son. It's sickening. I feel sorry that the kid and the man had to go through that, and I hope life is generous to them, but for fucks sake stop making these bets with people's lives.

[Anonymous No.16291086]

>b-but my child could s-suffer!!

we take that risk every day when we drive, or leave the house, or do fucking anything. there's always a risk of causing other people, or ourselves suffering. that's not a reason to neuter ourselves and sit in a padded room until we die.

>b-but it's a risk on behalf of others!!!

so is everything in life. if I drive on a road I risk other peoples lives. if I cook someone a meal, I may food poison them.

>b-but they don't consent to being born!!

requiring consent where it is incoherent/nonsensical to give is absurd. and we often do things for our children without their consent, because it benefits them (eg, vaccines, make them go to school, make them eat foods that are healthy that they don't want).

>b-but my life fucking SUX and I wish I was never born

fine, then don't have kids. I'll be over here with my happy family.

[Anonymous No.16291098]

>>16291086
>Dad having type 1 diabetes sure sucks I wish I wasn't born in a family that has this genetic problem.
"Shut up son we gotta blow those anti-natalist the fuck out imagine how much they are seething now".

[Anonymous No.16291103]

>>16290972
Based dad, if only we had more (white) people like this instead of faggy soibois arguing for meaningless philosophical positions online

[Anonymous No.16291105]

>>16291086
Some other anon in this thread mentioned that most natalist arguments only include manageable pain, this applies here.

[Anonymous No.16291112]

>>16290941
This image is pointless to the argument unless you actively desire to be born as this man's son. If at any point in time you think "no way dude I wouldn't trade my life for the life of that guy, I like the family/country/circumstance I was born way more" you are proving my point right.

[Anonymous No.16291138]

>>16291086
>Point gun at child's head
>Pull trigger
>Empty chamber
>"You see? There's absolutely zero danger here! Why aren't you doing this right this moment?"
No one is arguing that it's impossible to have a child that grows up to live a happy, fulfilling life. The argument is that even if most people live happy, fulfilling lives, there exist those who don't. Those people are from all walks of life: not only the poor and downtrodden, but also the rich and famous, many of whom have parents who are just as convinced of their own infallibility as you are.

The question at hand is not "will my children be happy," but "how willing am I to potentially condemn my child to a life not worth living in order to appease my own desire to be a father?"

[Anonymous No.16291148]

>>16290867
Cause it's impossible? Everything from scraping your knee and crying to getting sexually abused for years goes under suffering.

[Anonymous No.16291149]

>>16291112
Your argument is based on a faulty assumption that suffering begets suffering. This is exact opposite to reality, migrants have busted their balls to get to the promised land while you, a random anon in a thread, are probably a lonely parasite with no future. One has kids, the other doesn't. I am doubting whether you actually experienced suffering in your life or just argue on behalf of people that do and come to the opposite conclusion to them when it comes to childbirth.

>you now remember the time that one autistic anti-natalist listed 'doing the chores' as an example of suffering.

[Anonymous No.16291152]

>>16291148
see
>>16290909

[Anonymous No.16291158]

>>16291082
yeah and there's people who wouldn't pick your or my circumstances over theirs, what's the point?

[Anonymous No.16291159]

>>16291148
>projecting
my life and many others like me have been smooth sailing, plenty of people in the first world don't experience suffering to the point where they regret their own existence.

sorry for your dad molesting you btw

[Anonymous No.16291164]

>>16291149
>migrants have busted their balls to get to the promised land
More like, migrants busted their balls and died in droves, died in wars, died in persecution, died in famines, died on the boat, died jobless on the new country, died working like slaves, and a few succeeded. Among all of those many children, including the ones who died and left them orphan to live shitty lives in orphanages or on the street (you know, the foreign looking people you see on the street and surely care so much about). Of those children of immigrants many lead complicated lives and had all kinds of issues, but yes, some succeeded. You are likely one of them. You are one out of a gigantic pool of suffering people who didn't make it, and you assume your children will be too. I don't assume that kind of thing cause I deal with chronic health issues that I wouldn't wish even on people I dislike. That's basically it. I suffered something I don't wish upon my child, and I don't see how modern medicine can prevent that from happening. That's enough for me.

[Anonymous No.16291166]

>>16291159
You'll have to die, your loved ones will die. Also if you don't suffer you probably wont do anything important or impressive in your life, that is suffering in-itself. Same way down-syndrome kids don't really suffer that much because they don't understand anything.

[Anonymous No.16291167]

>>16291082
>I feel sorry that the kid and the man had to go through that, and I hope life is generous to them, but for fucks sake stop making these bets with people's lives.
say that to his face then, he made that bet.

[Anonymous No.16291168]

Pain is empty of any sort of good-bad value on its own
Suffering is a conscious invention of the self, a choice
Ergo,nyou choose to suffer regardless of your actual circumstances because suffering doesn't derive from pain but from you
Therefore, either kill yourself or stop whining and find happiness like the rest of the world

[Anonymous No.16291173]

>>16291168
The first thing Benatar says for his system to make sense is believe in some good-bad value system. Good and bad are obviously invented concepts, but so is everything.

[Anonymous No.16291174]

>>16291166
>WUAAAAAH DEATH IS COMING FOR US
is this the best you can come up with? coping with death?

>Also if you don't suffer you probably wont do anything important or impressive in your life
this is hilarious coming from an anti-natalist

[Anonymous No.16291177]

>>16291158
Since people can't choose who they are born to, it's up to the people breeding to make an informed choice for them.

[Anonymous No.16291179]

>>16291174
I'm just saying there is suffering coming for you.

[Anonymous No.16291180]

>>16291173
Why should I believe in his good-bad system?

[Anonymous No.16291189]

>>16291164
>life is shitty for most people, therefore life is shitty
At least you admit that you have some chronic health issues, im assuming mental illness caused by sexual abuse form your daddy, but you really cannot into logic can you?

[Anonymous No.16291191]

>>16291168
>Suffering is a conscious invention of the self, a choice
Bullshit. Torture is used by literally every military in the world in war situations for a reason. Suffering is a real biological thing, and mind over matter has a limit. You are a sociopath for wanting others to suffer.

[Anonymous No.16291194]

>>16291180
It's just a general good-bad value system. Pain = bad, pleasure = good, there is more pain than pleasure in life so life = bad.

[Anonymous No.16291195]

>>16291179
Thanks for the heads up, but I can deal with it like most normal functioning people.

[Anonymous No.16291197]

>>16291189
>This room has 100 bottles of water, 70 of which are poisoned.
"LOL at the cucks who wouldn't drink from this room, there's like 30 good bottles, c'mon".

[Anonymous No.16291200]

>>16291195
Have fun man, intense suffering is around every corner.

[Anonymous No.16291206]

>>16291197
Literally this, only low-inhibition low IQ people are able to take the risk.

[Anonymous No.16291207]

Why don't you "pain is good and builds character" faggots just go to a BLM protest and ask some of the nice masked gentlemen there to curbstomp your teeth out? That will build a lot of character very quickly.

[Anonymous No.16291208]

>>16291200
Cheers, but I'm mentally stable enough to pull through instead of clinging to a philosophical cope.

[Anonymous No.16291209]

>>16291191
Pain is a real biological thing
Suffering is not
You choose to suffer, I'd rather you not suffer but there's not much I can do about it
>>16291194
Why should I follow it though

[Anonymous No.16291211]

Friendly reminder from the last ANvsN thread, redditors. This was the only good post there:

>Let’s be honest guys. The only reason any of you want to have kids is because you were told and accepted that the purpose of life is to get married, have kids, work to support them, etc. You were given these beliefs, you didn’t arrive to them on your own or through studying your philosophy though you would like to think so.
While it is the case that the desire to reproduce is natural, you must realize that humans have overridden our natural functions with our minds. For example, the purpose of sex is reproduction. But we have learned to abuse our sensory organs to have sex for pleasure, which is something that nature never intended. This means anyone’s desire to have kids, so far as it is a belief, is 100% cultural, ideological, imagined, or however you want to put it. With that being said, the belief that having kids is okay is just as made up as the belief that having kids is wrong. Animals aren’t supposed to function like this. They simply procreate when they find themselves in the right situation. So whatever side you pick, you are living in your head. It seems like on any given day the natalists or the anti-natalists come out of the bush works, but just know you are all faggots living in your head and please don’t for one second believe that these discussions are useful for anything other than entertainment.

[Anonymous No.16291212]

>>16291195
Luckily avoiding the suffering you can't handle is not the same as "handling it".
I worked in an elder's retirement home and most people just grow sick of their loved ones when they reach a point that they can't handle, and drop them off somewhere to die outside of their view. I'm sure many of them thought the same as you all their lives up until their families are dropping them off there, and some other ones just experienced debilitating shit like this before.

[Anonymous No.16291217]

>>16291211
>Dude, what if values are like SUBJECTIVE
>DUNDUDNDUN

[Anonymous No.16291218]

>>16291197
>drink one bottle for 30% chance to live
>don't drink and die of thirst
Even when you put up cringe thought experiments you can't do it properly. Is this the power of anti-natalism??

[Anonymous No.16291222]

>>16291211
>For example, the purpose of sex is reproduction. But we have learned to abuse our sensory organs to have sex for pleasure, which is something that nature never intended.
This is demonstrably incorrect.

[Anonymous No.16291223]

>>16291212
>Luckily
Just because you live in a society of heartless shitstians doesn't mean the rest of the world is as degenerate as you subhumans

[Anonymous No.16291226]

>>16291222
It's not... Animals don't have more sex than they need.

[Anonymous No.16291227]

>>16291218
Just take a few more steps there, genius.
>Drink one bottle and somehow don't die.
"See, told you. Time to have children and make them drink too. I'm sure they'll survive just like I did".

[Anonymous No.16291230]

>>16291222
Fine, this wasn’t really the point of the whole thing. Another anon posted it in the other thread. The main message is correct though.

[Anonymous No.16291231]

>>16291226
Except for the ones that do.

[Anonymous No.16291237]

>>16291194
>Pain = bad, pleasure = good
There are cases where these don't apply. Some pain should be endured to prevent future pain/suffering like minor surgries without anesthesia, likewise having bodily pleasure leads to future suffering such as eating yourself into obesity.

[Anonymous No.16291238]

>>16291217
I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

[Anonymous No.16291244]

>>16291227
>a-a-akshually there are more scenarios to this cringey thought experiment
Anti-natalists really are the greatest copers it seems

[Anonymous No.16291247]

>>16291231
Are they by chance animals with a highly developed cognition? Because that wouldn't change the point that much, then.

[Anonymous No.16291250]

>>16291237
No, all pain is bad. Surgery without anesthesia is bad at the time you are doing it. If you didn't exist you wouldn't have to go through it. Eating a cake might feel good at the time, but some mental thing about thinking that you will be fat later will make it into suffering or not as good.

[Anonymous No.16291251]

>>16291244
I had to dumb it down because you seemed to have some trouble with statistics there. If you want I can also make a drawing. You don't seem to be too gifted in the thinky muscle.

[Anonymous No.16291255]

>>16291231
Dogs sometimes have sex with their mothers, and incest is prevalent just to reproduce.

[Anonymous No.16291259]

>>16291041
I've been through unmanageable and excruciating pain too, and yes, when it is happening you only want it to stop, you cannot reflect on it or try to extract meaning from pain when you are going through it.
But even though I find it to be shallow, you did form a strong opinion from pain ; you became anti-natalist. Is this not something suffering has taught you? You see, there are positive things to get from suffering, it can make you think, really think, in a way that a blissful life cannot provide.

[Anonymous No.16291272]

>>16291259
I agree with you, there are certain views that can only be attained after you've passed through certain experiences. That people could tell you and you won't believe until you experience yourself. But I just don't see this as good enough reason to make a son go over the same deal, you know?

[Anonymous No.16291276]

>>16291247
>"About 10% of rams (males), refuse to mate with ewes (females) but do readily mate with other rams."[8]
Are you going to disregard this on grounds that sheep are too cognitively developed or that these rams are having buttsex for the sole purpose of procreation?

[Anonymous No.16291280]

>>16291276
>having buttsex for the sole purpose of procreation?
Yes...

[Anonymous No.16291293]

>>16291276
Are you claiming they only do that for pleasure? What, are they afraid the female sheep will divorce and take half of their belongings? Will they prefer fucking a hole in the wall over female sheep? I mean. There's a lot of explaining you have to do there to convince me this is equivalent to humans hooking up.

[Anonymous No.16291296]

>>16291207
No one said pain should not be avoided, retard.
It should be avoided if possible, but you must also realise that it is an essential part of life, that doesn't mean you must seek it.

[Anonymous No.16291298]

>>16290385
Haven't read any Benatar but doesn't his whole philosophy rest on the assumption that suffering is bad? Maybe he should read some Nietzsche lol.

[Anonymous No.16291309]

>>16291298
For most normal human beings "meaningless suffering = bad" is a trivial assumption. Most human beings understand that feeling a little bit of pain after you exercise, going through heartbreak, etc etc constitute character forming experiences. This is really not what anti-natalists are talking about when they refer to "suffering".
It is then very surprising that people seem to claim ALL suffering is meaningful. That you will learn from ALL suffering you experience. That there is never going to be so much suffering, or some specific type of it, that will just destroy part or all of you/your life.

[Anonymous No.16291315]

>>16291272
Your life may be bad enough that you wish you weren't living it at all, but that only concerns a minority of people, go ask anyone in the street if they'd rather be dead, you'll find very few that will say yes.
My point is, life is worth living for most people, even if you take suffering into account.
You assume that your son will go through the same pain you go through, but first of all, you have no way of knowing this. And then, your son may deal with suffering and pain way differently and make something out of it instead of simply giving up on life.
If the vast majority of people prefer to be alive than to being dead, then life is a gift for the majority of them, and if you make a child, there is a bigger chance that they'll take it as gift than as a curse.

[Anonymous No.16291318]

>>16291293
>Are you claiming they only do that for pleasure?
One would assume. Why else would they have gay sex instead of just not having sex at all?
>What, are they afraid the female sheep will divorce and take half of their belongings?
You seem to be making my point. Some rams have sex with other rams because they prefer that tight sheep bussy, not because they're concerned with social factors.

[Anonymous No.16291327]

>>16291309
Amor fati, brother

[Anonymous No.16291328]

>>16291138
Someone disprove this.

[Anonymous No.16291330]

>>16291250
>Surgery without anesthesia is bad at the time you are doing it
depends on the type, thats why I said minor surgery. I only put this as an example, there are plenty other cases where pain prevents future suffering and is therefore 'good'.

>Eating a cake might feel good at the time but
I mean gluttony is a bad thing don't try spinning it into something that is good because there is pleasure in there.

[Anonymous No.16291344]

>>16291330
>there are plenty other cases where pain prevents future suffering and is therefore 'good'.
>I mean gluttony is a bad thing
So you clearly believe there are good and bad things in the world and believe in some value system.

There is more suffering than pleasure. Make your own judgement.

[Anonymous No.16291346]

>>16291318
Not him but sex for pleasure is an abuse of evolutionary mechanics. We enjoy sex because if we didn't, there would be no incentive to reproduce. But that doesn't mean we should overconsume sex for pleasure.
The same way we enjoy eating fat and sugar because it ensures our survival with more calories, but if we abuse that mechanic, we become extremely unhealthy (obese) and ultimately unhappy. Sexual pleasure shouldn't be considered to be pleasure only, and those who practice sex too much for pleasure only, pushing the boundaries with more partners and degenerative sexual practices are more often than not miserably depressed.

[Anonymous No.16291347]

>>16291251
there was nothing statistically challenging about a simple thought experiment, you're argument is a philosophical one. You tried.

[Anonymous No.16291351]

>>16291328
Read
>>16291315

[Anonymous No.16291358]

>>16290385
But I like suffering

[Anonymous No.16291371]

>>16291330
>where pain prevents future suffering and is therefore 'good'.
You can't say this. It is never certain that suffering prevents other suffering. You could suffer then die tomorrow. You can't speak about the future.

[Anonymous No.16291376]

>>16291344
>So you clearly believe there are good and bad things in the world and believe in some value system.
Yes of course, that is why Benatar's argument is easily debunked.

>There is more suffering than pleasure. Make your own judgement.
That's exactly the problem, coming to bizarre conclusions because life is harsh just amounts to coping.

[Anonymous No.16291386]

>>16291371
>You could suffer then die tomorrow.
Or you could suffer and not suffer tomorrow, ever thought of that?

>You can't say this. It is never certain that suffering prevents other suffering.
What an absolutely retarded thing to say

[Anonymous No.16291403]

>>16291309
>Stop strawmaning me
>Proceeds to strawman everyone else

[Anonymous No.16291408]

>>16291309
>This is really not what anti-natalists are talking about when they refer to "suffering".
you sure about that? these threads say otherwise

[Anonymous No.16291412]

>>16291315
>go ask anyone in the street if they'd rather be dead, you'll find very few that will say yes.
That's a moot point.
I could ask an opioid addict if they'd rather be dead, and they would probably say no. They would probably say they just want more fentanyl or some shit. You would see this as proof that life is good, I would see it as proof that life is bad.
Suicide is massively, MASSIVELY taboo in nearly any society. For each one person who kills themselves there are dozens who try but fail, and for each one of those there are dozens who think about trying but don't try, and for each of those there are countless who are depressive but are so scared or embarrased or disgusted or afraid of the idea of dying/suicide that they can't even think about it, and for each of those there are dozens who can think about it but would never speak openly to others, etc etc.
The number of people willing to say to a stranger that they wish they were dead is kind of a bad measurement of whether life is worth living or not. We have many systems, biological, cultural, social, etc, to force your hand heavily into wanting to continue to stay alive no matter how horrifyingly bad your quality of life becomes. The effect of this can't be just ignored, you know? We are mandated at all levels to cope with pain and choose life instead, probably even from each of our single cells to our collective societal whole.
Once you are born, that's it, you're stuck on this challenge. The only way to avoid this is not being born. The people who see this happening, that's why anti-natalism exists.

[Anonymous No.16291418]

>>16291386
>What an absolutely retarded thing to say
It's not at all. You save someones life but he turns out to be a serial killer who causes more suffering to other people, you thought you prevented someone from suffering but it turns out you added more.

[Anonymous No.16291419]

>>16291327
Why did he die a complete mess? Answer this question. Don't run away now. Why did he die in a way that renounces his entire philosophy?
It is because he suffered more than he could handle. All of the beautiful ubermensch talk, and he found out the only way you can that it was bullshit: by suffering enough to break. That doesn't mean his teachings can't be useful to others, some people will be able to manage their pain. He wasn't.

[Anonymous No.16291424]

>>16290946
>Antinatalism is the culmination of anglo philosophy
This post is the culmination of your intellectual sophistication

[Anonymous No.16291427]

>>16291418
Another example would be you go out to exercise to prevent further suffering of being obese and obesity related diseases, but you slip while hiking and fall into a pit with your legs crushed and no one to help you screaming. It's never certain what cause actions will have.

[Anonymous No.16291435]

>>16291419
He had syphilis? Many people had it at the time and went the same way as Nietzsche. H.P Lovecraft's father also masturbated until his penis was raw and drank his own piss like Nietzsche. That's what happens when your brain rots.

[Anonymous No.16291441]

>>16290385
Anti-natalism pisses off normies because it reminds them how shitty existence is. I don't blame them. There is an evolutionary advantage to being optimistic.

[Anonymous No.16291444]

>>16291435
Are you telling me illness can be stronger than your love for your own fate? That even some guy claiming suffering can be loved can die babbling nonsense after manic brain rotting disease? Wow. That sounds bad. I don't want my children to experience something like this. Thanks for the heads up.

[Anonymous No.16291452]

>>16291444
You can get shot in the head walking down the street, what are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.16291455]

>>16290941
> the kid goes to the West only to become FL and commit suicide because he is a ricecel whose only options are betabuxxing or settling for a roastie

[Anonymous No.16291461]

>>16291455
He could die the moment he graduated. Nothing is for certain.

[Anonymous No.16291463]

>>16291418
>>16291427
>'It's never certain what cause actions will have'
>but let me tell you about these hypothetical situation that could totally happen
lol

[Anonymous No.16291466]

>>16291082
Success stories like the Hmong guy (who I respect) are like porn to natalists. Natalists are mediocre and mostly subpar humans whose only achievement in life is having kids and many hope to live vicariously through their kid who they hope will become the next Elon Musk.

[Anonymous No.16291467]

>>16291461
or he could live

[Anonymous No.16291471]

>>16291452
You know exactly what I'm talking about, stop fucking playing dumb. You decided to quote nietzche, a fucking guy who never got married and never had kids and died a sad humiliating depressive death after spouting shit about "amor fati" and "ubermenschen" his entire adult life, and I'm calling you out on your fucking bullshit. This is the same shit as that founder of stoicism who died by suicide. A bunch of hypocrites, the lot of you.

[Anonymous No.16291472]

>>16291444
Also the masturbation with neurosyphilis isn't because you are manic it's because you are in such mental discomfort that you are trying to feel some good feeling. Same thing happens if you put Schizophrenics in a jail cell, they will masturbate until they can't then start playing with their own shit.

[Anonymous No.16291478]

>>16291463
No... I'm just trying to say you can't prove your statements either. You can logically prove there is more suffering than pleasure if you subscribe to a value system. If you don't subscribe to a value system it doesn't matter.

[Anonymous No.16291481]

>>16291467
Not for long.

[Anonymous No.16291482]

>>16291481
longer than you probably

[Anonymous No.16291483]

>>16291472
>you are in such mental discomfort that you are trying to feel some good feeling.
Why didn't he just love his fate more, bro? Why didn't he clean his room? Why didn't he bent nature to his will?
I feel like you're so close but you just can't connect the dots. One of the most illustrious figures of "mind over matter" dies unable to cope with his pain. Is this not enough for you to see the point of anti-natalism?

[Anonymous No.16291486]

>>16291482
No. By "not for long" I mean in the grand scheme of things. 60-70 years isn't long, even if he makes it that far.

[Anonymous No.16291491]

>>16291486
Yes but he still outlives you by a decade or so.

[Anonymous No.16291498]

>>16291483
You don't understand Nietzsche. There is no free-will. You are either born strong or you aren't. The "Amor fati" is reserved for the strong lucky ones. You can't tell a down-syndrome kid amor fati, it's not meant for him. Nietzsche doesn't care about the weak, thats the thing.

[Anonymous No.16291500]

>>16291491
Not for certain and it doesn't matter.

[Anonymous No.16291509]

>>16291500
99% chance he does and it matters.

[Anonymous No.16291513]

>>16291478
You are literally arguing that causality is a fiction. Is this really how anti-natalists see the world?

[Anonymous No.16291524]

>>16291509
>99% chance he does
No. There is actually a chance humans can go extinct, that just proves you don't understand what you are talking about.
>and it matters.
It doesn't. He could be in a old-folks home playing Uno for 10 years, or have Alzheimer's and not know who he is.

[Anonymous No.16291526]

>>16291513
>Is this really how anti-natalists see the world?
Probably. They have never truly worked a day in their lives and therefore have never tasted the fruit of suffering.

[Anonymous No.16291531]

>>16290835
>child is born and suffers (this is bad)
This fails to account for proportionality. Great suffering is worth it if we arrive at happiness. I suffered greatly once for years, but through perseverance and will (along with some outside help of course) I became happy and fulfilled, being unhappy at the moment doesn’t mean you always will be, and acting as if it does is pathetically defeatist.
>inb4 no you didn’t suffer because first world privileged etc etc.
Clearly you don’t hold this belief sincerely because then you wouldn’t be an antinatalist for people who live securely.
>child isn't born and doesn't suffer (this is good)
It isn’t good, it’s not anything at all, by your own logic:
>it's not a good thing the unborn child doesn't feel pain, because you must exist in order to be have a chance of experiencing pain

>>16291148
Suffering isn’t even always bad, often it’s a lesson to learn from. Antinatalists are just so pathetically afraid of any discomfort that they’d rather not exist (even though they don’t kill themselves so clearly they don’t believe it), they are the ultimate last men (and women).

[Anonymous No.16291533]

>>16291509
If we take that image and the story behind it to be exactly true as it was posted originally on the internet, that kid is not in the US. He graduated from a university you never heard of, literally in the middle of nowhere in Thailand. All things considered, in that context, he made something amazing, and his father is a hero for pulling through that.
But for you to sit here imagining he will have a really long life for some reason is complete wishful thinking.

[Anonymous No.16291537]

>>16291524
>No.
You're going to die early, get over it.

[Anonymous No.16291540]

>>16291531
>Suffering isn’t even always bad
Except when it is... and the kid get suffocated because her parents wrapped her in bubble wrap to be quite and didn't learn a lesson.

[Anonymous No.16291543]

>>16291526
Most people just have children for selfish reasons before they can experience enough suffering to think about antinatalism. You just haven't suffered enough or seen people suffering enough, or you heavily lack empathy capabilities.
Riddle me this. Why do YOU need to have children in this world of billions of people. Give me your best reason.

[Anonymous No.16291545]

>>16291537
Nice argument. I'm healthy, but that doesnt mean I couldn't die early. You can die early too, and the chances are just as high for you.

[Anonymous No.16291548]

>>16291533
I didn't say he'd have a long life, just that he outlives the so called anti-natalists of this board who usually go the way of the tranny and commit suicide at some point, its usually goes hand in hand with a kind of mental illness they suffer through.

[Anonymous No.16291552]

>>16291545
>>16291537
Both of you are missing the point. Dying is not the hard part. The hard part is suffering while you're alive. If you had to choose to die at 25 or to live tied to a bed until 98 the choice would be pretty obvious.

[Anonymous No.16291553]

>>16291545
>I'm healthy
Anti-natalism is a mental illness though

[Anonymous No.16291557]

>>16291419
He didn't die in a way that renounces his entire philosophy. He had brain cancer.

[Anonymous No.16291560]

>>16291553
I'm not a Anti-natalist, I congratulate people when they have kids.

[Anonymous No.16291564]

>>16291543
>Most people just have children for selfish reasons
Having children removes nearly a quarter of your life and freedom that is devoted to another person's well being. It is literally the most selfless thing you can do.

[Anonymous No.16291565]

>>16291548
Thinking anti-natalists necessarily want to commit suicide is literally fish level IQ. I can't believe after this many times, after it was discussed so much, people still go for this kind of shitty reasoning.
Saying you don't want to have children so they won't suffer is not the same as saying you want to harm yourself. Think about that for a bit and you'll see it.

[Anonymous No.16291567]

>>16291560
>I congratulate people when they have kids.
You can't be certain that you do this. Nothing is certain.

[Anonymous No.16291571]

>>16291567
I've done it in the past I meant to say.

[Anonymous No.16291572]

>>16291571
Are you certain?

[Anonymous No.16291577]

>>16291565
>noooooooo how dare you p-please stop saying we're suicidal or we may actually do it

[Anonymous No.16291580]

>>16291572
Yes. For all intents and purposes using what is known as language I congratulated people for having kids in the past.

[Anonymous No.16291582]

>>16291564
It doesn't "remove" shit. It just adds different experiences. Having free time to fuck around is not inherently "better" than seeing your son graduate from college unless you're a complete sex addict. That you have to feed your kid and take him to soccer practice don't count as giving up your life. You sound worse than anti-natalists. Narcissistic fuck.

[Anonymous No.16291589]

>>16291577
I'm glad it's up to people like you to populate this planet. It reassures me entirely that I'm right in not adding any more people to it.

[Anonymous No.16291594]

>>16291540
>the kid get suffocated because her parents wrapped her in bubble wrap to be quite and didn't learn a lesson
>far-fetched schizophrenic-level scenarios of suffering
>antinatalists think that this is an interesting point
Still haven’t answered why you don’t kill yourself?

[Anonymous No.16291596]

>>16291582
>working for your kids and being there for them for 18 years doesn't remove shit
lol

[Anonymous No.16291600]

>>16291589
Something tells me that most anti-natalists on /lit/ aren’t abstaining from reproduction by choice

[Anonymous No.16291603]

>>16291594
I'm not personally suffering enough to warrant killing myself. I just see how the world really is.

[Anonymous No.16291611]

Ah yes, the weekly r*ddit meetup where apparently only the absolute worst arguments being refuted are enough to BTFO everyone from the other side.

Why isn’t anyone interested in actually interesting questions, e. g.
>Why do you think you can ignore cases like severe chronic pain, ... i. e. actual suffering?
>Why does everyone here seem to believe it’s up to them to decide how important other people’s suffering actually is?

[Anonymous No.16291614]

>>16291589
and I'm glad they'll be 1 less defective lineage in this world, it reassures me that my biological line continues.

[Anonymous No.16291615]

>>16291594
I am AN but I don't kill myself because I believe in an afterlife and life is good for me right now. The difference between me and a retarded hick breeder like you is empathy. I realize for most people life is objectively shit. I am also a naturally depressed and pessimistic person.

[Anonymous No.16291620]

>>16291543
>Why do YOU need to have children in this world of billions of people.
would it be any different if there were just a few million people? I though anti-natalists had no strings attached.

[Anonymous No.16291623]

>>16291614
>it reassures me that my biological line continues.
You don't know this to a certainty. Your children could die or not have kids.

[Anonymous No.16291626]

>>16291614
I am AN but i agree that being AN is defective. breeder logic is going to be illogical it has to be otherwise people wouldnt exist. but its nothing to be proud off that u coomed in a woman and bred a kid. thats no real accomplishment.

[Anonymous No.16291628]

>>16291623
I don't have them now, but I might later. Nothing is certain.

[Anonymous No.16291632]

>>16291628
You might die before you have them then.

[Anonymous No.16291633]

>>16291632
or I might live. Nothing is certain.

[Anonymous No.16291636]

>>16291633
Yup.

[Anonymous No.16291638]

>>16291594
Why would they kill themselves? They live in a life of complete luxury ie being a welfare supported NEET who comes up with bizarre scenarios if his argument fails?

[Anonymous No.16291639]

>>16291636
>Yup
Are you really really certain?

[Anonymous No.16291645]

>>16291639
Are you certain that you're certain? Because you can't be certain that you're certain about being certain. As they say, nothing is certain, not even the certainty about being certain that one is certainly certain. Certain?

[Anonymous No.16291649]

>>16291645
are you certain about all that?

[Anonymous No.16292021]

>>16291603
So you’re saying that your life is enjoyable enough to be worth living? It seems that you don’t even see the world as you live it.