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/lit/ - Literature


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16286332 No.16286332[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Thoughts on critical theory?

>> No.16286339

>>16286332
>using leftist ideology to analyze literature
cringe. real literary criticism is dead and critical theory is it's murderer.

>> No.16286357

>>16286339
What is ‘real’ literary criticism?

>> No.16286364

>>16286332
it's based
>>16286339
retard

>> No.16286375

>>16286332
Based.
>>16286339
>t. retard

>> No.16286388

>>16286332
a*glo trash that had been recycled from french pseuds

>> No.16286394

As a whole, it's a utter dogshit, some of its theoreticians individually are pretty good though
>>16286364
>>16286375
This is the level of leftist discourse

>> No.16286411

>>16286388
kek. this. it's B.S.

>> No.16286424

>>16286394
Any applicable analysis or discorse will be met with "look at this neo marxist post modernist mumbo jumbo! He can't even explain his point clearly"

And then I will restate it in a more clear and dumb down fashion and you will say "wow, what fucking brainlet talk. The left can't even critically think when they theorize critically"

to which I will respond that you are a retard.

To which you will respond "This is the level of leftist discourse.

So instead of writing that all out and experiencing it for the billionth time on /lit/ I'm just gonna say you're a retard.

>> No.16286434

>>16286394
>t. based retard

>> No.16286443
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16286443

>>16286364
>>16286375
>>16286424
Not an argument. Leftists are so embarrassing. Just go back to /leftypol/ and jerk off thinking about Mao.

>> No.16286475

>>16286443
It's as much an argument as you gave retard.

>"It's shit"
>"Not it isn't, retard"
>"That's not an argument!"
>"Why are you presupposing this was an argument? Why are you on the offensive?"
>"Why are you changing the subject?"
>"You didn't ask a question."
>"Leftists are fake and gay"
>280 replies and 40 pictures omitted. Click Here to view.
>Fascist circlejerk inside
>janny deletes thread because it's not about LITERATURE

This thread is going to be SO. FUN.

>> No.16286504

>>16286332
based when it's used to criticize the left and their structures of domination and control, which are everywhere around us but curiously go unnoticed by many

>> No.16286506

It is literally projection and cope haha. Cucks or dykes project their feelings onto art or media and then present their “analysis” as fact. It cannot be right or wrong.

>> No.16286577

>>16286424
>And then I will restate it in a more clear and dumb down fashion
This never happens. You just use the misunderstanding of other to claim superiority and move on. This is true for anything related to continental philosophy, and it has led me to believe that the whole discipline is just some sort of bizarre, heavily-funded performance piece put on to make its participants feel elite in some sense.

>> No.16286593

>>16286577
I think that's more dependent on people being lazy. To explain something simply from the complicated takes longer to type out, and I think most anon's are either too lazy to do that, or don't understand the material well enough to be able to rephrase it.

>> No.16286610

>>16286593
I dunno man. I've seen people willing to elaborate on literally anything else. People involved in any way with continental philosophy seem think that being asked to do such a thing is a victory in and of itself.

>> No.16286623

>>16286504
>the left
>in control
In what country, dipshit?

>> No.16286636

>>16286332
its alright for those who made it.
Of course it is not applicable to anyone who has take any leap of faith to anything at all

>> No.16286655
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16286655

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSHL-rSMIro

>> No.16286665

>>16286655
>he got dub dubs and posted a youtube vidoe HE MUST BE RIGHT!!!!!1111!111

>> No.16286688

>>16286655
>The Truth About x

How do you click on such videos and maintain a single scintilla of self-respect?

>> No.16286700

>>16286623
They control all of the institutions that matter. When the collapse event occurs they'll seize total control.

>> No.16286728

>>16286700
Are you talking about America? Claiming with a straight face that leftists control all of the institutions of America?

>> No.16286785

>>16286728
Don't they?
They're everywhere in teaching and their dogma is rapidly spreading everywhere else from companies to culture.
America is hardly right-dominated.

>> No.16286803
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16286803

>>16286688
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6DnHxuuXI4

>> No.16286828

>>16286785
America is money hungry neoliberal right wing focused at all the levels that matter. Government, business, government contract, the municipal level, land ownership, arms manufacturing, bureaucratic processing at every level, the military, diplomacy.

Holy shit, because a few professors teach people critical thinking and to read a nigger book you think the entire workforce and instrumentalities of power are leftist? You are, by far, one of the stupidest and most indoctrinated individuals I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading their post. You are like a Fox News boomer on steroids. /pol/ has poisoned you. And I worry that you’ve become the biggest disappointment in your entire family lineage.

>> No.16286831

I've done a few papers on it and around it. Critical theory seems alright, it definitely pops up in the research of minority or discouraged groups more but I think that's because analysing existing structures etc with a critical (often historical) eye lends itself to discovering why the groups are 'oppressed' in the first place. I haven't read Marx but he's a good example because he took a step back and diagnosed the structure of his industrialising society from the eye of the working people.

>> No.16286840
File: 95 KB, 609x480, REPENT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16286840

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH2WeWgcSMk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0W9QbkX8Cs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vyBLCqyUes

>> No.16287160

>>16286443
>brainlets cope and get filtered
back to /pol/.

>> No.16287164

>>16286828
he either thinks liberals are leftist or is intentionally conflating them to waste your time

>> No.16287166

>>16286828
>neoliberal right wing
reminder that you're unironically retarded

>> No.16287184

>>16286828
>Holy shit, because a few professors teach people critical thinking
"A few"?
Schools and universities are massively leftist. What's that, 1/3, 1/4 of the entirety of all professors who openly declare themselves marxists?

>> No.16287204

>>16287164
> intentionally conflating
You might as well. 99% of liberals in the US are "social liberals" i.e. "mo money fo dem programz"

>> No.16287228 [DELETED] 

>>16286785
>underpaid adjuncts that are working 2 jobs in departments that are constantly getting funded slashed
right wingers are moronic. what we have now is a right wing neoliberal oligarchy, late capitalism with a smiley face. the hierarchies of the past are still with us. they constantly argue for hierarchy...well we have that now! The only thing they don't like is the way it is dressed up as. They want capitalism as it is now except with no brown, gay, or trans people. They only care about the aesthetics of politics and larping they are basically the idpol of the right. Their critique of capital is shallow and has no rigor. Any well read Marxist would wipe the floor with them and expose them for the edgelord children that they are

>> No.16287250

>>16286785
>underpaid adjuncts that are working 2 jobs in departments that are constantly getting funded slashed are destroying the Western Civilization!
right wingers are moronic. what we have now is a right wing neoliberal oligarchy, late capitalism with a smiley face. the hierarchies of the past are still with us. they constantly argue for hierarchy...well we have that now! The only thing they don't like is the way it is dressed up as. They want capitalism as it is now except with no brown, gay, or trans people. They only care about the aesthetics of politics and larping they are basically the idpol of the right. Their critique of capital is shallow and has no rigor. Any semi-well read Marxist would wipe the floor with them and expose them for the edgelord children that they are

>> No.16287259

>>16286828
Fuck you lying piece of shit communist

>> No.16287269

>>16286828
>>16287228
>>16287239
>>16287250
this is bait

>> No.16287274

>>16287250
Because they think it's preferable to live in Singapore rather than Detroit basically. There are clearly some other factors going on there than muh capitalism that Marxists just totally ignore.

>> No.16287288

>>16286332
It is bullshit.

>> No.16287300
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16287300

>>16286394
Yeah, dogshit is about right.

>> No.16287392

>>16287166
Reminder that you know exactly what I’m talking about but are playing semantics you retard
>>16287184
May be from personal experience but most of my law professors and undergrad profs avoided talk of Marx and communism, except the one prof that constantly called me a commie for laughs.
>>16287259
U mad?

>> No.16287481

>>16286332
Which critical theory?
>scholastic
>kantian
>frankfurt
>oviedo

>> No.16287495

>>16287392
pottery

>> No.16287529

>>16286475
i can feel your exhaustion, caused by regularly dealing with retards, from here. i think you should abandon this ship and find a place where people are capable of handling your level of discourse. smart people get rarer and rarer by the day, the last thing we need is for those smart people to become jaded.

>> No.16287580
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16287580

If gou are talking about the one developed by the frankfurt school its utter dogshit perpetuated by subhuman communist garbage

>> No.16287850

>>16287529
I’m going to presume this is bait, but then genuinely ask, where do you suggest?

>> No.16287851

I'm interested in the idea that especially for Bloch, Benjamin and Horkheimer, it was essentially secularized Judaism as an expansion of the messianism they found in Marx.

>> No.16288064

>>16287850
It's not bait. Honestly, I don't know where you'd go. If I did, I don't think I'd be here. All I know is that this board is no longer what it once was. It's sad, but I guess that's what happens when you let a board like /pol/ fester.

>> No.16288437
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16288437

>It's not bait. Honestly, I don't know where you'd go. If I did, I don't think I'd be here. All I know is that this board is no longer what it once was. It's sad, but I guess that's what happens when you let a board like /pol/ fester.

>> No.16288448

>>16286357
>What is ‘real’ literary criticism?
Biblical Literalism

>> No.16288581

>>16286728
>>16286828
>>16287164
>liberalism isn't left wing anymore because we shifted some terminology around to our benefit
>checkmate rightoid
Why are Marxists like this?

>> No.16288602

its nice knowing how we critique work, but its all useless now thanks to pomo. its all deconstructionism now, no need to progress further. and ive had my gay brother yell at me for calling it queer theory even though its specifically called that. fucking faggot

>> No.16288628

earth = mass grave^2

>> No.16288675

>>16287529
I agree I was just drinking about my 30th serving of onions beans and goat milk, when I stumbled upon this reactionary infested thread. My distaste at neophyte and reactionary elements polluting the previously wholesome and candid discussions on masterful Marxist literature on this Burmese wheat tilling forum is indescribable in its scale and my day is ruined

>> No.16288683

>>16288581
>liberals are marxists because I said so
ok anon

>> No.16288686

>>16287160
>implying that your comrades even read marx on their own if at all, and that without great encouragement they would spontaneously do so

>> No.16288695

>>16288675
Not me, but good post. I hate you, friend.

>> No.16288893
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16288893

>>16288683
>left wing is exclusive to marxism
Why are Marxists like this? Just redefining shit left and right to fit their fucktarded ideological worldview.

>> No.16288988

>>16288893
do you know what the word liberalism means? in America the association is only with the left because of how far the overton window has moved right.

>> No.16289034

>>16286332
It's a method, it can be used for both based and cringe ends.

>> No.16289063

>>16288988
Marxist word police trying to pretend leftist theory isn't behind today's liberal in every thread

>> No.16289225

>>16289063
lmao imagine thinking this. yea dude, the secret marxists are running everything!!11! soros!1 they control every college!!!

listen, dumbass: the word "liberal" just means freedom in terms of ideology. There's a reason why capitalism is also known as "liberal economics". In America "liberal" has become a word meaning you want change by reforming the system; but because the Democrats and GOP both essentially believe in the same economics the word has come to signify a number of mostly cultural issues. The fact that the labor movement and an ultimately materialist view of politics has been ignored by the majority of elites shows how simple it is that "liberal" and "left" are different things.

But if you follow Q or some shit like that this shouldn't matter to you, and I ultimately can't help you. I can, however, argue that you should have healthcare

>> No.16289255

>>16289225
>>16289063
it's true, that there are more and more leftists being inspired by Marxist theory. But they aren't liberals; that's the whole point. The fact that so many kids are now interested in this stuff, however, is symptomatic of something much greater

>> No.16289274

>>16289225
Left-liberals are social democrats and this successor ideology or whatever you want to call it is heavily influenced by leftist thought even if it decenters class from its discourse.

>> No.16289297

>>16289274
You won't reach them. He isn't capable of looking at it from outside of his incredibly narrow perspective enough to realize that people are grouping them together because they hate what both of them have in common, rather than being exactly the same.

>> No.16289381

>>16289274
>>16289297
even if there are similarities that permeated through academia in actual people online or whatever (the liberals i'm talking about are wealthy, Democrats, mainstream media etc are all explitcitly anti-left which includes social democracy), the point is they don't actually have power anywhere because power is rooted in profit. to argue this view is narrow is to look at it through a purely cultural lens. you're falling right into the game the elites you claim to hate want you to play; I'm here offering help. what they want is left vs right when it should be us vs them. there's a lot of annoying leftists out there but it helps to read the bare minimum

>> No.16289396

>>16289381
*the "real left" doesn't have power while many liberals do, and their performance is only done to uphold the status quo. they hate leftists more than conservatives

>> No.16289437

>>16286623

Where have you been for the last 4 months while BoA and Amazon have been throwing billions of dollars at BLM? Where do you work that you haven't been getting emails every fucking week about how important fighting white privilege and racial sensitivity are?

If you're talking about the "labor" left then yeah that obviously doesn't exist, but the "left" has been culturally in control for a long time now. It has been obvious for at least five years, or at least, should have been.

>> No.16289513

>>16289381
You are either unread yourself or willfully distorting the provenance of these ideas. Even Robin DiAngelo is a low key anticapitalist, the leaders of BLM are openly "trained Marxists" and so on. Critical race theory comes from Neo-Marxism, second wave feminism was also very Marxist and so on. Wokeness is thoroughly left wing. What's happened is the left has shifted in focus from the working class to the educated which is why there's less class emphasis than you'd like. Deal with it.

>> No.16289556

>>16286332
If critical theory was actually applied like its supposed to.
Jews and corporations would be under the scope of oppressors.

>> No.16289608

>>16289513
>>16289437
you're embarrassing yourself. it doesnt take a genius to understand capitalism's connection to racism; the problem with the people you're mentioning is that they have completely co-opted and watered down anything remotely "left" that their once inspired their ideas because they only care about profit and influence. You just mentioned that they're "culturally" in control, which proves my point: true leftism is about economics, not culture. Amazon and your job emailing you about BLM doesn't mean the left is doing anything other than being co opted by people with actual power as meaningless signifiers. The shift that you describe (and critical race theory etc's alleged root in neo-Marxism; again it seems you don't know anything about frankfurt school) is miscalculated: the whole point of "wokeness" is that it gives the appearance of being left wing and morally righteous while in reality it acts as handmaiden to capital. Please read more

>> No.16289655

>>16289437
>how important fighting white privilege and racial sensitivity are?
because this has absolutely nothing to do with leftism. Leftism is exclusively an economic position. Its like you are saying Fascists Libertarians Ancaps and Cuckservatives are the exact same thing. Leftists hate liberals more than any other group.

>> No.16289705

All critique is subjective and subjectiveness is controlled by the rationality spectrum because we know that no one is completely rational all the time we can say with confidence that this type of critique is useless.

>> No.16289724

>>16289608
It's just that there are at least two dimensions to it rather than one, and they aren't fully orthogonal to be sure, but your Marxism makes you see culture as merely epiphenonemal on economics, which weakens your analysis. Of course there is a phony, calculated cynicism to some of it but there's also a lot of true belief or it wouldn't be profitable to pander to it in the first place, and besides they don't seem to give much of a shit about alienating their conservative customers either, suggesting there's a lot more to it than just the bottom line and class war from above. PS Neo-Marxism is perfectly adequate academic descriptor for the Frankfurters.

>> No.16289734

>>16289724
the thesis of materialist determination of culture has nothing to do with a rational pursuit of self interest. it's more about the effects of daily praxis in consciousness

>> No.16289740

>>16289724
you arent listening. im not saying its not black and white im saying these liberals you speak of are fundamentally at odds with the left because if they werent they would have no power. youre talking in circles

>PS Neo-Marxism is perfectly adequate academic descriptor for the Frankfurters
yea im saying the frankfurters had almost nothing to do with critical race theory dipshit

>> No.16289823

>>16289655

The left is not exclusively an economic position and it never has been.

>>16289608

>capitalism's connection to racism

Racism exists. Capitalism is about as connected to racism as it is to sexism or religion. Capitalism profits off of whatever happens to be lying around. Saying capitalism and racism are necessarily connected is just a marketing ploy people use to bait """leftists""" into buying into the idpol memes.

Also, to clarify, I am not >>16289513

So, let me get this straight. True leftism is about economics, not culture, and that's why corporations explicitly adopting a culture war political program and trying to brainwash everyone into it isn't meaningful in any way?

You can't say that corporations shoving all this shit down everyone's throats isn't leftist just because "real" leftism would be anti-capital. While that's a nice fantasy, leftist cultural politics have gone hand in hand with capitalist programs since more or less the beginning. Feminism was just women's liberation...to do what? Oh yeah, to suck and fuck all day long instead of getting married and throw themselves into the workforce to stagnate wages..."progress"

Anti-racism and globalism began to be shilled as "free trade" began expanding globally with the end of the cold war. You can kvetch about how none of this is "real leftism" all you want, but the fact is that capital has always been one of the biggest pushers of (successful) leftist politics whenever it has suited their purposes. Pretending capital can ONLY be right wing just because you prefer identifying as a leftist is naive and historically illiterate.

>> No.16289828

People that argue against critical theory as a whole aren't smart enough to interact with the individual ideas of critical theory. Critical theory is definitionally vague with dramatic differences between thinkers and arguments.

>> No.16289857
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16289857

>>16286655
Meanwhile, in this book, he gives strong arguments against critical theories but the fucking worst argument for liberalism. "Hey, liberalism works, it just sometimes takes 400 years to get something right."

>> No.16289874

>>16289740
You're taking it as axiomatic that left means powerlessness under the current system when reality paints a different picture. The woke thought leaders are generally economic as well as cultural leftists, even if the Bidenist plebs are still catching up to them. Critical race theory was influenced moreso by Franz Fanon than the Frankfurters, but he was still a Marxist critical theorist.

>> No.16289892

>>16289857
That's a lot of British liberals. One of my classmates from the UK would always defend colonialism by saying Britain spread liberalism across the globe, it just hadn't taken hold yet, "but once it will......"

>> No.16289930

>>16289828
Oh yeah if only there were a coherent train of thought linking all these Marxists together...

>> No.16289961

>>16289608
I don't think you understand that it is about economics. By shifting the educated labor force drastically to the left, all business entities are forced to shift leftwards to survive.

>> No.16289975

>>16286828
Yes.

>> No.16289978

>>16289828

It doesn't require any "intelligence" to interact with any "critical theory" past like the frankfurt school. All of this grievance studies shit since the 90's is just gibberish and trash designed to morally agitate pseudointellectuals. Nothing more.

>> No.16290018

>>16289930
Although Marxist analysis is used in a lot of critical theory, there are a lot of theorists who don't use Marx. Yes, maybe things influenced by Marx, but that speaks more to the fact that Marx's works and Marxist theories are very influential in Western thought. Too lump all of critical theory as Marxist is reductionist and misses the point.

>> No.16290031

>>16289978
I think you'll find there are many critical theorists who would agree that grievance studies are bullshit, but to a lot of college's it makes money, so they encourage it.

>> No.16290042

>>16290018
>there are a lot of theorists who don't use Marx
Who?

>> No.16290096

>>16290042
A lot of postcolonial theory. Edward Said for example doesn't use Marx. He does use Marxists, such as Gramsci, but they have developed theories that Marx would not necessarily recognize. As I said, maybe things influenced by Marx.
If you reduce all of critical theory to Marx and Marxists, you're dismissing the wide differences of thinking between the authors. Marxism isn't some unified set of theories, but a base from which different, often conflicting theories have developed in Western thought.

>> No.16290111

>>16290031

Let's not kid ourselves here. The only reason most people these days talk about "critical theory" isn't because there's a renaissance of people rediscovering Adorno, Horkheimer, Marcuse, et al. It's because of borderline schizo white feminists shilling intersectionalist nonsense that is easy to get papers published about in the publish or perish economy and that is the "critical theory" that has taken over much of university life at the moment.

If you try to tell me any different I'm just going to assume you're either from the CIA and trying to gaslight me or you're just trying to gaslight me for free, which is even sadder.

>> No.16290127

>>16286339
Based
>>16286364
>>16286375
Retards

>> No.16290145

>>16286332
Worthless pessimism.

>> No.16290159

>>16290111
Yes, I agree. But that's not all critical theory is. But at Universities, especially in the states, that's the case.

>> No.16290164
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16290164

>>16290111
This guy gets it. Fuck crit defenders.

>> No.16290190
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16290190

>>16286475
What are you talking about, schizo? My argument is very clear: critical theory is leftist ideology masquerading as literary criticism. Why are Marxists so god damned stupid? You niggers are always telling people to "read theory" meanwhile you can't even read period. You have the reading comprehension of an orangutan.
>>16287160
yeah I'll go back to /pol/ as soon as you go back to /reddit/

>> No.16290305

>criticism theory is dumb and Marxism is gay, it has no power over us smart people!
>Marxism and critical theory have infiltrated every part of our society and will doom us all!
How are people this retarded? It’s like thinking Jews are in control of everything but also inferior.

>> No.16290320

>>16286828
>Holy shit, because a few professors teach people critical thinking and to read a nigger book you think the entire workforce and instrumentalities of power are leftist?
To conflate critical theory with critical thinking is dishonest to begin with, but it's a great example of just how insidious problem is. To present a means of viewing and analyzing the world from as highly political lens in order to achieve specific political goals alone as nothing more than "critical thinking" shows that the purpose isn't to think critically but to naturalize highly political thinking. One can see this among leftists who often assert that their political ideology and the concepts it entails aren't political and ideological at all; they assert that these ideals (basic human rights, basic human decency, basic humanity, etc.) are ultimately just the the answer to moral questions that exist outside of politics or, oddly enough, as some sort of system table manners for the whole of society to follow. The goal is to make the normative aims of the political left and the means of analysis most conducive to achieving them as feel as natural as the laws of physics. You are also mistaken about the extent which this occurs. If these were fringe professors teaching a one-off class somewhere, no one would care. The problem is that universities tailor every aspect of the student experience to advance this agenda. Students are inundated with propaganda both in and outside of class in order for the the aforementioned process to take effect, and if that doesn't work, they are shown countless examples of people being punished for opposing the orthodoxy.
University campuses are just large Skinner boxes complex enough to condition groups of people numbering in the thousands.
>>16290305
I think these people are highly intelligent and effective. My problem with them is that they're evil, not that they're stupid.

>> No.16290340

>>16290320
>long tirade that doesn’t acknowledge how conservative the law and ownership of property in our current system is but continues to blame underpaid professors forced to constantly publish
You use lots of words, but you’re still really dumb, how is that?

>> No.16290395

>>16290340
>how conservative the law
These amount to nothing more than vesitgial elements of past society constantly being being constantly picked apart by the the professional class.
>ownership of property
This is irrelevant in a non-revolutionary setting. But the class of educated laborers are aid the communist cause in the event of a collapse event; otherwise they work to secure the left's grip on power and advance its other causes.
In a technological society like our own, educated labor is the engine that keeps the whole machine running. Controlling the supply and nature of educated labor allows you to exert an extreme influence that has a demand for it. Even if these professors are underpaid they are compensated with wages of control and influence which more than make up for it.

>> No.16290416

>>16286332
uncritical of itself

>> No.16290430

>>16289930
>Oh yeah if only there were a coherent train of thought linking all these Marxists together...
Then what is it big brain boy?

>> No.16290507

>>16286424
>on /lit/
minor mistake here reddit spacing tourist

>> No.16290519

>>16286332
It's moribund
Let it die

>> No.16290523

>>16290416
This is key and ultimately it's undoing, just not yet fwr

>> No.16290677

>>16286357
Bloom and friends

>> No.16290699

>>16286357
Aesthetics and formalism.

>> No.16290717

>>16289724
If any of those corporations "believed" in communism they would at least improved workers condition.

>> No.16290800

>>16290717
They don't believe in communism, but their educated workforce is prepared to use all of their resources to advance the cause of communism.

>> No.16291090

>>16290416
This.

>> No.16291114

>>16286831
>because analysing existing structures etc with a critical (often historical) eye lends itself to discovering why the groups are 'oppressed' in the first place
What does "historical" even mean in this context? Historical narratives are often incredibly biased