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/lit/ - Literature

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16252313 No.16252313 [Reply] [Original]

Just finished Crime and Punishment. Lets have a nice discussion about it.

>> No.16252322

no i want to shipost about my political enemies fuck you

>> No.16252331

>>16252313
Svidrigailov was neat. How did you feel about the ending? Some think it was abrupt, but I rather liked it.

>> No.16252337

I liked whenever the detective grilled Raskolnikov

>> No.16252370

>>16252331
Im assuming you are talking about the ending of the book, and not Svidrigailovs fate (which was very very well written, by the way), and i sort of agree that it was a bit abrupt. Thats not to say it was bad, there just wasnt that much left to say at the end i suppose. As for Svidrigailov, what was the symbolic purpose of the witness of his suicide being referred to as Achilles? I found that very strange, but maybe it was written from his deranged and twisted perspective, and he simply made that obsvervation. Still would like to hear some thoughts about that.

>> No.16252378

>>16252337
Oh yeah, the detective is an absolutely amazing character. I love his little laugh. When he told Raskolnikov that he knew what he had done i got goosebumps

>> No.16252399

Let's say someone you know says that the book is shit and that Dostoevsky is a bad writer, what would you say?
Someone irl told me that and I actually didn't know what to tell him, this is basically the only book he has ever read in his life.

>> No.16252434

>>16252399
Depends heavily on how they critizise it.

>> No.16252435
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16252435

>>16252313
>tfw no sonechka gf
I still keep sleeping with escorts though
>>16252399
An important part of Dostoevsky’s style is how he’s setting himself apart from Gogol and Tolstoy, he’s clearly an illiterate unable to contextualize dostos writings

>> No.16252436

>>16252399
I told a friend to read it. He dropped it at the bar scene. I told him to keep pushing and he made it past the crime scene, even praised it, but after that dropped it again because "it had too many characters and was too confusing to keep track of everything". Fucking hell, how do you think C&P has too many characters.

>> No.16252454

>>16252436
Maybe he confused the 50 nicknames each character has with other names

>> No.16252468
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16252468

>>16252313
Anyone knows what the deal was with Rodya and the landlady's ugly, dull daughter? What was the meaning of that?

>>16252331
The scene with Duneshka where he holds her and asks if she could love him was one of the most disturbingly and tensely erotic things I've read in a long while, ngl

>> No.16252544

>>16252434
We were talking about when we were in high school and he started ranting "like that piece of shit book that they made us read, it was bad!".
He basically criticized it because, for him, Raskolnikov didn't had character development until the very end of the book, which is bullshit, but what the fuck do I even respond without explicitly tell him that he's retarded?

>> No.16252545

>>16252468
>What was the meaning of that?
Her murder was due to R's miscalculations, and couldn't easily be justified by his Napoleanic fantasies. That's why he ignores it and doubles down on his logic for killing the moneylender. He doesn't kill his landlady by the way, everyone seems to be confused by this because R is trying to avoid his landlady in the very beginning.

>> No.16252567

Finished this yesterday - my first Dostoevsky novel.
I enjoyed it but am paranoid that I've missed some obvious symbolism or interpretations.
I was surprised that the epilogue is so controversial. I suppose it could have been fleshed out a bit more but I wonder how much of the criticism is simply anti-Christian sentiment.
Also I audibly laughed at the part when Lebezyatnikov was explaining his proto-commie / rational egoism political ideology; especially when Dostoevsky is simply calling him a cuckold.

Now can't decide whether to read The Brothers Karamazov or to cleanse my palate with something a bit different.

>> No.16252575

>>16252545
no I'm not talking about that. His former landlady, before all that happened, had a daughter he was engaged too who died of some illness.

>> No.16252584

>>16252545
He's talking about Rodya's landlady's unattractive daughter, who he was engaged to marry until she died.
I would also like to know the meaning behind this.

>> No.16252602

Can someone tell me where in the book it is said that Sonya is a prostitute? I remember that when I read the book a couple years ago, I only found out that she was a prostitute when I was reading about the book online. Maybe I'm retarded or the translation I had was shit.

>> No.16252606

>>16252575
>>16252584
Oh yeah, I don't remember that too well. It could be an alternative path for Raskolnikov, like if she didn't die he wouldn't have killed, but marrying her would have prevented him from the greatness he wanted?

>> No.16252621

>>16252602
It's mentioned that she had a "yellow card" which was like a whore license or something.

>> No.16252630

>>16252575
>>16252584
>>16252606
>engaged
>tfw ur fiancee dies of some illness
I don't know about you, but I think that would've disillusioned just about anybody. That event set him on the track of thinking deeply (even too deeply) about where he was in life

>>16252370
A lot of novels have hanging endings where it's not quite clear what happens to the characters. I think Dosto was trying to fill up the remaining pages of the book. It would've been way better if he stopped with Svidri's death and only hinted at Raskolnikov's confession.

If you read the ending or the epilogue by themselves, they work a bit better, but in my mind they're so hard to connect to the Raskolnikov from the rest of the novel

>> No.16252677

>>16252630
>>16252606
why did he choose the landlady's daughter in the first place when he said he wasn't in love with her and she was unattractive and dull? Was it his humanitarian side doing its thing?

>> No.16252722

>>16252602
I had heard somewhere online that Rodya's sister was raped by Svidrigaïlov but I don't recall it ever being referred to in the book.

>> No.16252742

>>16252468
I think the whole landlady daughter sub-plot was mostly added for plot convenience. Other than that, it just shows how apathetic towards life in general Raskolnikov was when he was writing his dumb thesis. It shows how he trivialized something as important as marriage just to not pay as much rent.

>> No.16252751

>>16252602
When she leaves the apartment for a few hours, comes back with bunch of money, and lays defeated on the bed. What did you think she was out doing? Playing dice?

>> No.16252794

>>16252742
what a whore

>> No.16252852

>>16252621
It is a license to be a whore

>> No.16252911

Read it earlier this year and was surprised by how middle-of-the-road I found it.

Brothers Karamazov is my favorite novel of all time so I went in with high expectations but I definitely felt let down. In Brothers K, every character has so much depth and life to them whereas in C&P I only ever really cared about Raskolnikov and his lad. And even then, I never felt like I was able to internalize any of the possible motivations given for the murders, it still felt kind of mysterious and aimless toward the end. Maybe that's part of the point but it did not make for excellent literature for me. Also didn't like how maybe 40% of the book focused on characters and subplots that were not directly related to Raskolnikov and the murders and I found all of those parts to be way less interesting and therefore a drag.

I did like the scenes with him and the detective, though. Also thought the scene where he finally decides to turn himself in was powerful. Some of the philosophical discussions are also great and Brothers K-tier. Wish there was more of that stuff

>> No.16253508

Honest question would any of you wife up a yellow card girl if she was in sonechakas situation and you weren’t a client but just a bystander like raskolnikov? I would

>> No.16253677

>>16253508
why not, it's not as if she was a whore out of choice.
She could have had some nasty STD's tho

>> No.16253683

>>16252313
It was way too long.

>> No.16253990

>>16252602
Editions without notes, no matter how pretty, are a disservice to the readers.

However, in this case, her state is alluded to by multiple characters in multiple places. You have either read lazily and skipped a lot, or had some abridged version.

>> No.16254020

/razumikhin/ ww@?

>> No.16254206

>>16253683
Dostoevsky was paid per word, allotting him more funds to gamble with.

>> No.16254347

>>16254206
It is quite naive to suppose that any Nonamesky (or even Bignamesky) could just dump a lot of text, and that editors simply accepted that as it was. They weren't stupid. In fact, the one who eagerly believes such simple but incorrect explanation is probably more stupid.

>> No.16254362

>>16252722
He tries to rape her but she shoots at him. It is not possible to forget that scene.

>> No.16254373

>>16254362
Where did Phoebe get the gun from?

>> No.16254395

>>16254347
They were paid by the word and were encouraged to write lengthy works. It's what the audience wanted. You're right that they couldn't just write gibberish but there was a strong motivation to not be succinct.

>> No.16254400

>>16254373
wrong book dude

>> No.16254557

>>16252751
I don't remember that part at all, but based on that description, wouldn't it make equally as much sense if she was out stealing or committing some other crime and then was feeling bad about it afterwards? I mean, the book is called Crime and Punishment after all, besides Raskolnikov left the apartment for a few hours as well to commit a crime, afterwards had a lot of money and was feeling quite defeated as well. The yellow card thing is obviously a confirming detail, but as a casual contemporary reader, you wouldn't really know what that means.

>> No.16254752

I can't imagine how anyone can read Marmeladov's monologue and not imagine vividly his whole family.

You must have had a very calm and happy life.

>> No.16254905
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16254905

good book desu

>> No.16255182

>>16254557
No, because if she was committing a crime every night and everyone knew about it, she would be in fucking prison or beaten to death.

>> No.16256048

>>16252313
Based Svidrigailov

>> No.16256268

Did Svidrigailov feel guilty for being such a bastard?

>> No.16256622

>>16252567
Read winter notes on summer impressions then read brother karamazov

>> No.16256675

Rodia lived the optimal neet life

>> No.16257098

>>16252313
Honestly I'd fuck Sonya. Even for sloppy seconds.

>> No.16257114

>>16256268
I'm gonna say yes considering he killed himself.

>> No.16257147

>>16252454
I think this the main problem, like how the landlady is sometimes refered to as Ludwigovna or how Luzhin is either called Luzhin or Petrovitch. I didn't know about the Russian naming system for children until I saw a lecture about Dostoevsky.

>> No.16257183

>>16252567
>I audibly laughed at the part when Lebezyatnikov was explaining his proto-commie / rational egoism political ideology; especially when Dostoevsky is simply calling him a cuckold
The leftists back then are no different from the ones today. I'd suggest reading Demons if you want to understand how people become possessed by political ideology.

>> No.16257200

>>16253683
If anything, it's too short.

>> No.16257263

>>16257114
He didn't seem guilty when he spoke to Rodya in the tavern though. He didn't act ashamed of himself at all.

>> No.16257577

>>16257263
Because he's suppressing his emotions. He can't escape his subconscious in his dreams though. Just like Raskolnikov who keeps rationalizing his crime.

>> No.16257964

>>16252436
Tвoй дpyг пpocтo peтapд. (Your friend just a retard).

>> No.16257985

>>16257200
Yes, 800 more pages of HE'S GUILTY, DO YOU GET IT? was in order.

>> No.16258006

>>16257577
Ah I see, like Raskolnikov's bad dreams as well. Very good book, I just didn't really get his motive for the suicide, I just thought it was because he couldn't get Dunya.

>> No.16258204

>>16258006
If you believe he poisoned his wife in order to have a future with Dunya, it was after the shooting that he realised with certainty that his wife's murder was in vain.
Similarly, Rodion realised his double murder was in vain as he didn't even take the money and, more importantly, couldn't "step over" as Napoleon did.
Svidrigailov's suicide is the alternative to redemption through suffering and Christianity; representing the only two options available to Rodion, according to Dostoevsky.

>> No.16258235

>>16257985
Did you think that was the point of the book?

>> No.16258238

>>16258235
Do you have something to contribute?

>> No.16258244

>>16258238
I do.

>> No.16258599

Didn't think so.

>> No.16259477

>>16257147
and what would that be?

>> No.16259501

Im about halfway through, really good so far.

>> No.16259633

>>16258204
but I thought suicide was a one way ticket to hell in Christianity?

>> No.16259839

>man kills woman
>feels regret
lol more like dostoflopsky amirite

>> No.16260259

>>16254752
so fuckin true

>> No.16260502

>>16252313
I still am not sure if Raskolnikov ever repented in the end.