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/lit/ - Literature

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16206074 No.16206074 [Reply] [Original]

If industrial revolution was a mistake, then what was the peak of human civilization, at which it should've stopped developing?

>> No.16206079

>>16206074
Serfdom

>> No.16206088

15k years ago with the development of the atlatl.

>> No.16206091
File: 16 KB, 331x499, Better Never To Have Been.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16206091

>>16206074
Abiogenesis was a mistake. Life should have never come into existence in the first place.

>> No.16206104

>>16206074
Nah, industrial society is good for humanity. It has led to a relatively positive effect on us all, and while it has many flaws, those are up to us to fix.

>> No.16206139

>>16206074
unironically something like ancient greece/rome

>> No.16206150

Peak civilization was pre-1500 BC Egypt and Middle East, unironically. Overall quality of life was by far the best back then.

Since 1000 BC the peak has probably been 1000-1400. Renaissance and reformation was a mistake

>> No.16206177

>>16206074
We peaked at hunter gatherer stage. Everything after was a mistake.
From a European perspective, the late middle ages were pretty good all things considered.

>> No.16206180

>>16206104
the mistake is in thinking that using technology is a choice

>> No.16206184

>>16206150
Overall quality of life was by far the best back then
???
>Be me, Egyptian peasant
>Have to farm from dawn to dusk
>Barely making enough to survive
>Have to leave family for months to build a pyramid in the desert
> Poor food, sucks
> Not even paid for it
> See my friends get injured in accidents, die
>Someone gets bitten by a mosquito, dies a few months later
> Finally get home
> Sea peoples took my daughter and wife
> Life is pain

>> No.16206187

the truth is that man's proclivity toward self destruction is the true problem
he destroys even that which he delights in, as with chess engines destroying the soul of chess

>> No.16206189

>>16206074
Before money was invented

>> No.16206202

>>16206150
>Renaissance was a mistake
no, at least not the southern renaissance
>Reformation was a mistake
yes

>> No.16206204

>>16206180
Pandora's Box has been opened and no one can close it. We will never go back to pre-industrial civilization. Any attempt to do so by force would lead to a mass rebellion, and it will not happen on its own. We have to give up on the idea of tech being bad, and need to shape it so that it becomes a purely beneficial force.

>> No.16206213

Sometime around 0 and 33 AD. It was all downhill from there.

>> No.16206214

>>16206184
>be modern man
>work in a cubicle all day
>go home and play vidya and watch netflix
>die

>> No.16206344

>>16206139
>>16206150
>cosmopolitan city dwellers
never gonna make it

>> No.16206360

>>16206214
I mean, you could go out instead of playing video games and watching TV?

>> No.16206376

Coming down from the trees was the biggest mistake humanity ever made.
Embrace Monke

>> No.16207323

>>16206074
The Greeks of course.
>>16206104
>It has led to a relatively positive effect on us all
If you think becoming fat corpulent bugmen that watches TV and plays video games all day is "good", sure.

>> No.16207339

>>16206184
lmao do you get all your history info from reddit or some other pop-history site???

>> No.16207344

>>16206184
Even in serfdom people worked about half what we do.

>> No.16207385

>>16206074
1000AD

>> No.16207386

>>16206074
Ted seems to think America in the late nineteenth century was fine. That's the impression I get from his writings. He's definitely fine with agrarianism.

>> No.16207393

>>16206074
Golden Age of Athens

>> No.16207395

>>16207386
Sorry, meant late eighteenth century obviously.

>> No.16207406

>>16207323
>If you think becoming fat corpulent bugmen that watches TV and plays video games all day is "good", sure.
That's entirely up to you. Modern age enables us to live an extremely healthy and comfy life with minimal effort, all things considered. I can't imagine living in a world where I can't comfortably travel anywhere I please, whenever I can; talking to people of different cultures, languages and exchanging experiences; have virtually infinite information available to you mostly free and at the tip of your fingers and so on.
If you're not a bottom-feeding low-life or someone who got severely unlucky, this is basically a dream time to be alive. You can achieve and do things the humans of old never dared would exist in a thousand years

>> No.16207462

>>16206074
> at which it should've stopped developing?
Alienation IS development. All of art, philosophy, religion, poetry, warfare, agriculture, the sacred/profane dichotomy - all of it is alienation. Whatever man produces beyond his basic need IS alienation. Alienation = surplus = division of labour. Read The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State by Engels. Then re-read Kaczynski because marx & engels are agents of capital, they are incredibly insightful but ultimately not as radical as Kaczynski (who is not as radical as Christ but that's another debate)

>> No.16207474

>>16206213
underrated post

>> No.16207509

>>16207386
Ted realizes that his preferences are completely irrelevant, he realizes that the individual plays no part in the development of history. He says so himself, doesn't matter what he thinks, your 'political inclination' is nothing more than narcissism as understood by Marx and Debord. It is false consciousness, propped up to cloud your mind and steer you away from radical thought. There is no left or right or up or down. There are only revolutionaries (Marx: abolish the state! abolish money! Kaczynski: attack the system's fundamental values) or counter-revolutionaries (reformists, politicized buffons, cybernetists, poets etc) That's why there is no blueprint for the reconstruction of society post anti-tech revolution. Someone providing a blueprint for the reconstruction of society is a reformist, not a revolutionary.

>>16206213
Absolute truth. Christ is the most radical being in History.

>> No.16207529

>>16207395
Sorry, meant 117th century BCE obviously.

>> No.16207533

>>16206214
You have the choice to live like the ancient Egyptian peasant if you so choose, but he doesn't have the choice to live like you. And if he did, he would choose the modern life everytime.

>> No.16207534

>>16207509
Why did Christ attack the moneylenders instead of just setting up his church elsewhere, and why did he curse the fig tree

>> No.16207587

>>16207533
funny, I just got back from visiting one of the oldest archeological site in france, which was inhabited up until 150 years ago. They talked about how these people destroyed the railways when the government built them in the 19th century, and how the government had them all executed for trying to stop technological progress. A bunch of literal primitive troglodytes apparently did not choose the modern life everytime. what I'm trying to say is that you're a moron.

>> No.16207758

>>16207393
This. The slaves outnumbered the citizens 8:1. Also, bring back slaves so I don't have to bend a finger drinking my mint water allowing me more time to philosophize

>> No.16207773

I'd settle for Middle Ages + Plumbing.

>> No.16207786

Medieval England

>> No.16207832

>>16206180
>I'm being forced to use all these conveniences in my life
Poor baby.

>> No.16207886

>>16207406
>That's entirely up to you. Modern age enables us to live an extremely healthy and comfy life with minimal effort, all things considered.
That's a very fancy idea you have there, but that is simply not the reality we live in.
>I can't imagine living in a world where I can't comfortably travel anywhere I please, whenever I can; talking to people of different cultures, languages and exchanging experiences;
This vaguely sounds like some neoconservative globohomo shill rhetoric.
>have virtually infinite information available to you mostly free and at the tip of your fingers and so on.
This isn't a good thing. I would argue we're stupider as a result of the constant influx of trivia and opinions we passively consume every single day.

>> No.16207937

>>16207832
>I'm forced to use a car which is "convenient" for me to get to work fast because my boss wants more efficient work flow, thus actually depriving me of having the choice to use an automobile or not
Yes.

>> No.16207960

>>16207406
>MUH COMFORT MUH EASE OF LIVING I JUST WANT TO LAY DOWN AND TAKE IT EASY ALL DAY BRO, FUCK SPIRITUALISM, FUCK MARRIAGE!

>> No.16208004

>>16206184
more like
>arranged marriage to cutie egyptian girl at 14
>fuck all the time, have 7 kids
>don't have to worry about gay shit like learning to read, college debt, paying the bills
>work with neighbors on the irrigation canals, feast every week except for planting and harvest
>ruled by a living god, loved by all

>> No.16208055

>>16207937
A car is convenient. There's also public transit and taxis / Uber, or moving to a smaller locale if you prefer, which is easier now thanks to cars / trucks / planes and so on.

>> No.16208064

>>16208055
Holy shit my point completely went over your head.

>> No.16208075

>>16208064
More like I shoved your point back up your ass. If you don't think a car is a convenient thing you're a fucking retard.

>> No.16208180

>>16208075
Let's establish something first, why is a car convenient? It is a large vehicle that can transport you (or multiple) people at once at high speeds. This invention has become widespread on a global industrial scale due to the nature of its convenience. As a result, a good chunk of the working class own this vehicle (after spending a good amount of money of course). How does this affect your daily life? Well you can move your personage around at speeds you never could before. Work, restaurants, stores etc. all of these things are easier to access then they were before. So many people own these cars because they're so ridiculously convenient to have! This affects not just your personal life, but the World around you, as more roads and highways are formed as a result. With such a convenient item widespread, it has affected the World around you to compensate for its inherent limits. However now that cities are bigger, this makes it harder for a walking man to navigate such an environment, and he may be tempted to get a car. Now finally, companies take notice of the revolution that is the automobile, and see a fantastic opportunity for greater more efficient and larger scale work flow! As a result of all of this, the World around you has conformed to the existence of the car rather than the individual, and you're forced to take up its mantle.

>> No.16208207

The Golden Age, as described by Hesiod, or Paradise, as described by christian tales. Everything went downhill from there. We had to start working. Deceases. Sins. Shit people. Women. The list goes on..

>> No.16208225

>>16208180
tl;dr

A car is a convenient thing, and it doesn't matter why. Stop being a fucking sperg about it.

>> No.16208227

>>16206074
Nürnberg circa 1500

>> No.16208237

>>16208225
>filtered by a paragraph
There's no hope for you.

>> No.16208242

>>16208225
>he doesn't read things
>on the reading board
Oh goodness.

>> No.16208249

>>16208242
Sperg talk makes my head spin.

>> No.16208253

>>16208249
Anything that challenges your status quo makes your head hurt, we know. I bet you watch South Park too.

>> No.16208285
File: 73 KB, 800x462, Tiktaalik_roseae_life_restor-800x462.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16208285

>> No.16208290

>>16206074
Renaissance

>> No.16208368

>>16206360
Shhh he doesn't know about all that it's too complicated and requires discomfort

>> No.16208431

>>16208253
>sperg thinks he's "challenging" anything besides the quality of decency on /lit/

>> No.16208774

>>16208225
A car warrants roads, roads warrant decentralization and the necessity for long travel.
Remember when you could buy all the shit you needed locally in non mega stores without having to sit through faggot fucking traffic?

>> No.16209147

>>16206214
you are a fucking retard. ted's criticism of technological society has fuck all to do with ur doomer-boomer-xcoommer nonsense you dimwit.

>> No.16209252

>>16206074
haha wait this guy was like 5'7? explains everything

>> No.16209273

>>16207339
Pol and here

>> No.16209338

>wake up with the sun naturally
>put on pants i made myself
>walk outside my hut that i built together with my community
>inhale refreshing natural air
>walk down to the nearby creek
>spend a few hours collecting nice rocks
>store them in the wicker basket i made by hand
>tote my findings back to my cozy village
>spend as long as i feel like chiseling my rocks into arrowheads for the group to hunt with
>commotion at the village entrance
>the hunters have returned with much meat and pelts
>the farmers have come in as well with plenty of food and materials
>we will feast bountifully together during the coming winter
>i cant wait to help everyone dress the meat
>village elder says we must give thanks for the harvest to the gods
>i know the gods are real because i cant explain anything beyond my own understanding and thats what the village elder said was true
>spend the early afternoon playing games with the other village lads my age that i grew up with
>late afternoon we get to don our ceremonial robes and masks and have a very fun dance around the fire
>fall asleep when my natural rhythm dictates it is time to
>wake up ready for another great day as a native american
>village fisherman spotted strange white clouds on the horizon, approaching the harbor
>i hope the clouds dont have strange people from land's afar which will ruin this vast wilderness of a continent with walmarts and 9 to 5's and science

>> No.16209361

>>16208774
>A car warrants roads, roads warrant decentralization and the necessity for long travel.
And yet, a car is still convenient in many ways, most of which outweigh any of these nitpicks. Funny how life isn't black and white like you imagine it to be, huh?

>> No.16209373

>>16206204
Oil's going to run out eventually, and I don't see any viable alternate energy-sources developing. That means bye-bye industrial civilisation.

>> No.16209377

>>16209361
>>16209361
i will write it in green text form for him so your reddit brain can understand
>cars have conveniences
>they are so convenient, that it is now expected for you to use a car
do i need to go deeper or what

>> No.16209385

>peak of human civilization

I've never seen such a string of words contradict itself so much.

>> No.16209416

>>16209377
>it's inconvenient because it's so convenient we can't imagine living without it
You and him both are worthless fucking people.

>> No.16209427

>>16209416
>we
Lol...

>> No.16209430

Cars are convenient as a reflection of the society that has progressed from its usage. Cars are, also, inconvenient due to reliance on them depending on the society that formed via their usage.

>> No.16209508

>>16207406
Your problem is you're defining the worth of an age by it's comfort and convenience. The things which actually give meaning and happiness in life are things like purposeful work, close social bonds in a tightly-knit community and a culture that isn't just porn and memes. All of these things are in short supply in the modern world.

>> No.16209545

>>16206091
This.

The final stage is to realize that we as humans were ripped out of the void by an unknown metaphysical entity to erase the mistake known as life. Something has gone terribly wrong here on earth, and it is our duty to ensure it does not infect the rest of the cosmos.

>> No.16209638

>>16206074
Real answer: before the invention of the printing press. The printing press enabled the plebs to educate themselves, but unlike the elite who were educated on the responsibility behind certain types of knowledge, and who were by birthright committed to ruling the land justly, the plebs, like a bunch of ravenous animals took the knowledge of philosophy and natural science that was previously guarded among the elites, was widespread and led to such travesties as the Protestant revolution and therefore the industrial revolution and society today.

Technology may not even be bad as long as the genetically inferior plebs remained in their place (unironically).

>> No.16209678
File: 162 KB, 1200x862, peasant lyfe mate.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16209678

>>16209638
I actually agree with this. Educating sub 150iq people like myself was the greatest mistake in history. I should have been left to tend a field and go to church while being unable to even read the bible.

>> No.16209758

>>16206074
The industrial revolution was a great advancement, the mistake was allowing pre-industrial people to continue living in an incompatible society
also not giving communists the bullet

>> No.16209770

>>16206074
The Spanish Empire

>> No.16209783

>>16208225
There is absolutely no way this anon has read anything outside of his school curriculum.

>> No.16209919

>"Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this."

>> No.16210017

>>16209678
you guys are sub 80

>> No.16210594

>>16209638
The plebs have never led a revolution in their life, the Reformation was led by the nobility who wanted to centralize power away from Rome.

>> No.16210663

800-1806

>> No.16210666

>>16209427
If not we, then what the hell were you getting at with
>it is now expected for you to use a car
it is obviously we, obviously a group, "society" that now no longer sees any value in living without the car, hence the expectation, which is apparently inconvenient to you. And this is stupid because it amounts to saying that the extreme convenience of a car makes it inconvenient. Jackass.

>> No.16210676

>>16208225
Back to pol retard

>> No.16210686

>>16210666
Burgerclaps, I don't even...

>> No.16210731

>>16210686
Cool non-response there, buddy. All technology is a double-edged sword, learn to wield it or die to those who can, complaining is for cowards.

>> No.16212345

>>16208004
Except there was no harvest though, the Nile inundated the land and literally made all of the wheat pop out of the ground like in Minecraft.

>> No.16212356

>>16206074
14th century Mongolia, because stepp nomads had life figured out

>> No.16212364
File: 158 KB, 406x395, I TRIED TO WARN YOU.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16212364

>>16206104
>THE ‘BAD’ PARTS OF TECHNOLOGY CANNOT BE SEPARATED FROM THE ‘GOOD’ PARTS

>121. A further reason why industrial society cannot be reformed in favor of freedom is that modern technology is a unified system in which all parts are dependent on one another. You can’t get rid of the “bad” parts of technology and retain only the “good” parts. Take modern medicine, for example. Progress in medical science depends on progress in chemistry, physics, biology, computer science and other fields. Advanced medical treatments require expensive, high-tech equipment that can be made available only by a technologically progressive, economically rich society. Clearly you can’t have much progress in medicine without the whole technological system and everything that goes with it.

>122. Even if medical progress could be maintained without the rest of the technological system, it would by itself bring certain evils. Suppose for example that a cure for diabetes is discovered. People with a genetic tendency to diabetes will then be able to survive and reproduce as well as anyone else. Natural selection against genes for diabetes will cease and such genes will spread throughout the population. (This may be occurring to some extent already, since diabetes, while not curable, can be controlled through use of insulin.) The same thing will happen with many other diseases susceptibility to which is affected by genetic degradation of the population. The only solution will be some sort of eugenics program or extensive genetic engineering of human beings, so that man in the future will no longer be a creation of nature, or of chance, or of God (depending on your religious or philosophical opinions), but a manufactured product.

> 123. If you think that big government interferes in your life too much NOW, just wait till the government starts regulating the genetic constitution of your children. Such regulation will inevitably follow the introduction of genetic engineering of human beings, because the consequences of unregulated genetic engineering would be disastrous. [19]

>> No.16212365

>>16206104
> 124. The usual response to such concerns is to talk about “medical ethics.” But a code of ethics would not serve to protect freedom in the face of medical progress; it would only make matters worse. A code of ethics applicable to genetic engineering would be in effect a means of regulating the genetic constitution of human beings. Somebody (probably the upper-middle class, mostly) would decide that such and such applications of genetic engineering were “ethical” and others were not, so that in effect they would be imposing their own values on the genetic constitution of the population at large. Even if a code of ethics were chosen on a completely democratic basis, the majority would be imposing their own values on any minorities who might have a different idea of what constituted an “ethical” use of genetic engineering. The only code of ethics that would truly protect freedom would be one that prohibited ANY genetic engineering of human beings, and you can be sure that no such code will ever be applied in a technological society. No code that reduced genetic engineering to a minor role could stand up for long, because the temptation presented by the immense power of biotechnology would be irresistible, especially since to the majority of people many of its applications will seem obviously and unequivocally good (eliminating physical and mental diseases, giving people the abilities they need to get along in today’s world). Inevitably, genetic engineering will be used extensively, but only in ways consistent with the needs of the industrial- technological system. [20]

>> No.16212398

>>16209508
>being so weak-willed you can't enjoy hedonism
Bah.

>> No.16212417

>>16209638
Catholic Church shouldn't have been so greedy with those indulginces then.

>> No.16212463

>>16207386
technology still wasn't there then and people could live far enough away from cities to remain autonomous. truly a blessed time

>> No.16212489

>>16206091
Lol no i Hav fun fuck you

>> No.16212547

>>16208055
spoken like a true slave

>> No.16212558

>>16212364
Does this mean natural, primitive medicine should not be practised?

>> No.16212600

>>16206074
keep the progress of technologies, just break down all countries into the small autonomous polis-like communes and create trans-national entity that manages global problems like viruses, ecology etc. no capitalist class, they all go to work. morality, culture, legal systems are decided by communes themselves.

>> No.16212621

>>16206204
Yeah this is just a hypothetical though

>> No.16212623

>>16206214
Can we just admit both were/are bad?

>> No.16212733

>>16212547
What's wrong with being a slave? Someone's gotta be.

>> No.16212854

>>16210731
Have fun trying to "weild" the sissy microchip, that will become "necessary" because it is "convenient", effectively.

>> No.16212867

>>16210731
your mistake is thinking all technology can be used effectively, and that some of it is not meant to do the complete opposite, enslave you further, under the guise that it is helping you.

>> No.16212873

>>16210731
>complaining is for cowards
Yes! Any resistance at all, even the slightest, is cowardly! Standing up to those who are bullying you is not bravery, it is cowardice! Thanks, I've been saying that for years!
Fucking dumbass.

>> No.16212880

>>16206074
K

>> No.16212930

>>16210666
>this is stupid because it amounts to saying that the extreme convenience of a car makes it inconvenient
what? That is not what was implied at all. He is saying the convenience of cars caused an evolution in societies where, due to their convenience, they became necessary. This does not mean the car is not convenient, this means that the manipulation of society towards a state where cars HAVE to be accepted as a mode of transportation has made the car necessary, which has destroyed other modes of transportation due to this manipulation.
Now, what your retard brain cant understand is that this was only an example to show how HARMFUL things can be made necessary, to the point where there is no escape from a collapse caused by them since we rely on their producers.

>> No.16212948

>>16209638
This is the best answer in the entire thread. Printing press started putting all this shit in motion and fucked us over by having people who could read everything and think they’re just as smart

>> No.16213503

>>16206376
this

>> No.16213520

>>16206074
None. All those lines of thinking are dumb and idealistic. There was never anything but competition over resources and the inevitable ugly end of it all.

>> No.16213525

>>16209638
>>Real answer: before the invention of the printing press.
before agriculture, it's nto that hard fuck

>> No.16213536

>>16210017
Sub 80 is still sub 150, therefore that anon is correct and you're a fucking pseud.

>> No.16213567

>>16206088
This, everyone with a different opinion didn't get the manifesto at all. Man should be animals

>> No.16213647

>>16212854
>>16212867
>>16212873
Realize that the chopping block that you all think you're heading towards is entirely in your head. It's a theoretical block. Technology can be grappled with and controlled, and this is in fact done daily by many people, otherwise there would be no more technology being made and improved upon on a yearly basis. If you keep burying your heads in the sand like this and calling for a revival of the past, though, you're just going to make the struggle that much more difficult for yourselves.

>>16212930
Necessity is not inconvenient. It all has to do with your attitude, state of mind, and most importantly, your perception, which can all be exercised and refined. What isn't going to help you with this is finding ways to dialectically dispute the value of technology days on end on an anonymous imageboard with people who simply don't care for your pessimistic nihilism.

>> No.16213719

>>16212873
Also, the only proper mode of resistance is to directly grapple with a beast and tame it. Caging it is not properly resisting it, and neither is running away from it, caging yourself from it, or exterminating it and its entire bloodline. None of those options improve you at all, which is what the end goal of resistance is supposed to be about.

>> No.16213941

>>16206074
>what was the peak of human civilization, at which it should've stopped developing?

Anything that allowed Teddy boy to rape dogs to death with a knife and make himself into a "woman".
He should've dilated more, that BBC he gets every day now would hurt a lot less. LOL

>> No.16214715

literally name one (1) flaw of living off grid once you have made enough money to become self sustainable and begin building

>> No.16214744

>>16206088
Why atlatl? So spears were first and then atlatl was a device for throwing them with leverage?

>> No.16214755

>>16214715
Possibly no / slow internet

>> No.16215112

>>16206091
lets destroy all life
don't pussy out of genocide dear fellow antinatalist, we must stop the pain on this earth

>> No.16215121

>>16206074
Renaissance when people were clean but still fought with swords and everyone could read

>> No.16215128

>>16206074
Rome

>> No.16215136

>>16207533
he also had the choice of gtfoing or fighting
the pussies always get the rope

>> No.16215349

>>16214715
based

>> No.16215427

>>16206074
unironically i think every period of humanity would be just as bad as ours if the internet existed. the internet might have been our biggest mistake and our biggest success at the same time

>> No.16215442

>>16214715
its my dream to make enough money to invest into becoming a landlord and putting money into some random company I know won't fall and I will just make money off for ever then I would just buy a farm get fast internet and never go outside again spend all my time shitposting

>> No.16215854

>>16208055
no uber in kansas

>> No.16217073

>>16215854
based egger

>> No.16217092

>>16207339
How is 4chan history any better? kek

>> No.16217169

>>16206177
This. Humans were far stronger and more intelligent back then.

>> No.16217202
File: 68 KB, 528x587, Pasternak_fedorov.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16217202

>>16206074
Regression won't fix anything, I rejected the collapse rhetoric and replaced it with cosmism. I don't necessarily think neo luddism is wrong, and believe it to be compatible with cosmism from a biopolitical standpoint, but I think Ted is ethically wrong (so long as man can prevent extinctions events to the ecological status quo he has an obligation to). The end will come, so we might as well go out to the stars and view the sublime as a way to better love God.

>> No.16217508

>>16212558
In practical terms, traditional medicine did not engender a system that led to further development of itself. If you look at Traditional Chinese Medicine, it hasn't developed much outside of where Western Medicine touched it.