/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16142602]

Literature about how faggots are mentally ill? Don't turn my thread into some argument battleground, please actually recommend me books first

[Anonymous No.16142625]

>>16142602
Your post seems honest, OP.
Read Biology. The Basics, 29 edition by Maxwell and Barnes

[Anonymous No.16142675]

>>16142602
>Every non-Jewish culture in the world has strongly opposed homosexuality
Literally the opposite is the case.

[Anonymous No.16142681]

>>16142675
Spartans very clearly banned all sexual relationships between men, as per the laws of Lycurgus, which were employed until the end of the Spartan state, as they never changed. Not to mention all Spartans that didn't marry and were celibate were punished with taxes and ostracized and excluded from celebrations and festivals
>The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0210%3Atext%3DConst.%20Lac.%3Achapter%3D2%3Asection%3D13

And on Greek "pedastry", specifically Athenian
Pedastry was strictly an educational relationship, there was no sexual elements involved. Different Greek city states just accused each other of them being sexual relationships to accuse each other of being barbarians and allowing such a thing to happen while they didn't, to prove themsevles and their laws superior. One example of this was Boeotians who they accused of allowing this sort of behaviour and regarded them as barbaric and animalistic, however Boetians did not actually allow this, just like their counterparts in the rest of Greece, they were merely used as scapegoats so different states could prove their laws superior
>The view that the Boeotians conducted themselves in an ‘uncivilized’ manner in their homosexual relations is therefore better understood as an attempt by other Greeks to distinguish themselves from the ‘boorish’ Boeotians and to justify their own aversion to this form of erotic love.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v49n03_06

[Anonymous No.16142685]

>>16142675
>>16142681
>The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter's husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age.
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/aeschines.asp

This court case very much shows they had clear laws about the seduction of free born youth, and the so called "pedastric relationship" included a youth and an older man, this proves that pedastric relationships were merely educational and clear penalities were brought upon those who did not keep them as strictly educational relationships. And all academics agree that homosexuality between adult men was allowed nowhere and indeed did not occur.

[Anonymous No.16142691]

>>16142681
Care to explain these passages, friend?

>O rare! I caught a sight of the inwards of his garment, and took the flame. Then I could no longer contain myself. I thought how well Cydias understood the nature of love, when, in speaking of a fair youth, he warns some one "not to bring the fawn in the sight of the lion to be devoured by him," for I felt that I had been overcome by a sort of wild-beast appetite. But I controlled myself, and when he asked me if I knew the cure of the headache, I answered, but with an effort, that I did know.
Socrates, in 'Charmides'
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/charmides.html

>Com. Where do you come from, Socrates? And yet I need hardly ask the question, for I know that you have been in chase of the fair Alcibiades. I saw the day before yesterday; and he had got a beard like a man-and he is a man, as I may tell you in your ear. But I thought that he was still very charming.
>Soc. What of his beard? Are you not of Homer's opinion, who says 'Youth is most charming when the beard first appears?' And that is now the charm of Alcibiades.
>Com. Well, and how do matters proceed? Have you been visiting him, and was he gracious to you?
>Soc. Yes, I thought that he was very gracious; and especially to-day, for I have just come from him, and he has been helping me in an argument. But shall I tell you a strange thing? I paid no attention to him, and several times I quite forgot that he was present.
>Com. What is the meaning of this? Has anything happened between you and him? For surely you cannot have discovered a fairer love than he is; certainly not in this city of Athens.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/protagoras.html

[Anonymous No.16142702]

>>16142681
>>16142685
>Socrates turned to Agathon and said: I must ask you to protect me, Agathon; for the passion of this man has grown quite a serious matter to me. Since I became his admirer I have never been allowed to speak to any other fair one, or so much as to look at them. If I do, he goes wild with envy and jealousy, and not only abuses me but can hardly keep his hands off me, and at this moment he may do me some harm. Please to see to this, and either reconcile me to him, or, if he attempts violence, protect me, as I am in bodily fear of his mad and passionate attempts.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/symposium.html

>In Ionia and other places, and generally in countries which are subject to the barbarians, the custom is held to be dishonourable; loves of youths share the evil repute in which philosophy and gymnastics are held because they are inimical to tyranny; for the interests of rulers require that their subjects should be poor in spirit and that there should be no strong bond of friendship or society among them, which love, above all other motives, is likely to inspire, as our Athenian tyrants-learned by experience; for the love of Aristogeiton and the constancy of Harmodius had strength which undid their power. And, therefore, the ill-repute into which these attachments have fallen is to be ascribed to the evil condition of those who make them to be ill-reputed; that is to say, to the self-seeking of the governors and the cowardice of the governed; on the other hand, the indiscriminate honour which is given to them in some countries is attributable to the laziness of those who hold this opinion of them. In our own country a far better principle prevails, but, as I was saying, the explanation of it is rather perplexing. For, observe that open loves are held to be more honourable than secret ones, and that the love of the noblest and highest, even if their persons are less beautiful than others, is especially honourable.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/symposium.html

[Anonymous No.16142708]

>>16142602
Death in Venice. The MC seeks to elevate what is essentially pederasty but its clear he's retarded by the end. Goes from a highly-respected writer and symbol of culture to a literal faggot ousting after a child, wandering the streets giggling to himself in women's makeup.

[Anonymous No.16142731]

>>16142691
>>O rare! I caught a sight of the inwards of his garment, and took the flame. Then I could no longer contain myself. I thought how well Cydias understood the nature of love, when, in speaking of a fair youth, he warns some one "not to bring the fawn in the sight of the lion to be devoured by him," for I felt that I had been overcome by a sort of wild-beast appetite. But I controlled myself, and when he asked me if I knew the cure of the headache, I answered, but with an effort, that I did know.
>Socrates, in 'Charmides'

This passsage clearly demonstrates the need for self-constraint and not giving in to passion, specfically these passages
>"not to bring the fawn in the sight of the lion to be devoured by him,"
>for I felt that I had been overcome by a sort of wild-beast appetite.
>But I controlled myself

The second one clearly does not contain any eroticism, they are just saying that he is charming and charismatic and great at persuasion, as Alcibiades was which is how he got to the position he was at, but this vapidity is what later got him executed in war and being a bad strategist, which was in part because he did heed Socrates' instructions on self-control and discipline, as Socrates often urged him to practice self-restraint as he was acting like a wild beast in the widest of indulgences often. You should learn about real people and their life and relationships with each other before using them in out of context passages

[Anonymous No.16142733]

>Some persons have one favourite, Socrates, and some another, he said.
>And who is yours? I asked: tell me that, Hippothales.
>At this he blushed; and I said to him, O Hippothales, thou son of Hieronymus! do not say that you are, or that you are not, in love; the confession is too late; for I see that you are not only in love, but are already far gone in your love. Simple and foolish as I am, the Gods have given me the power of understanding affections of this kind.
>Whereupon he blushed more and more.
>Ctesippus said: I like to see you blushing, Hippothales, and hesitating to tell Socrates the name; when, if he were with you but for a very short time, you would have plagued him to death by talking about nothing else. Indeed, Socrates, he has literally deafened us, and stopped our ears with the praises of Lysis; and if he is a little intoxicated, there is every likelihood that we may have our sleep murdered with a cry of Lysis. His performances in prose are bad enough, but nothing at all in comparison with his verse; and when he drenches us with his poems and other compositions, it is really too bad; and worse still is his manner of singing them to his love; he has a voice which is truly appalling, and we cannot help hearing him: and now having a question put to him by you, behold he is blushing.

>Will you tell me by what words or actions I may become endeared to my love?
>That is not easy to determine, I said; but if you will bring your love to me, and will let me talk with him, I may perhaps be able to show you how to converse with him, instead of singing and reciting in the fashion of which you are accused.
>There will be no difficulty in bringing him, he replied; if you will only go with Ctesippus into the Palaestra, and sit down and talk, I believe that he will come of his own accord; for he is fond of listening, Socrates. And as this is the festival of the Hermaea, the young men and boys are all together, and there is no separation between them. He will be sure to come: but if he does not, Ctesippus with whom he is familiar, and whose relation Menexenus is his great friend, shall call him.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/lysis.html

[Anonymous No.16142762]

>>16142702
>>Socrates turned to Agathon and said: I must ask you to protect me, Agathon; for the passion of this man has grown quite a serious matter to me. Since I became his admirer I have never been allowed to speak to any other fair one, or so much as to look at them. If I do, he goes wild with envy and jealousy, and not only abuses me but can hardly keep his hands off me, and at this moment he may do me some harm. Please to see to this, and either reconcile me to him, or, if he attempts violence, protect me, as I am in bodily fear of his mad and passionate attempts.

This passage clearly demonstrates arguing against whatever you did, showing how such people acting like utter wild beasts and immoraly because of their passions, to the point they abuse and assault others around them, for they are utterly consumed by it, they have gone completely mad and insane

As for the second passage
>for the love of Aristogeiton and the constancy of Harmodius had strength which undid their power. And, therefore, the ill-repute into which these attachments have fallen is to be ascribed to the evil condition of those who make them to be ill-reputed; that is to say, to the self-seeking of the governors and the cowardice of the governed
Aristogeniton and Hadmodius were not lovers, the word philio in greek, which is today translated as love, had much wider definitions than today, from the love of neighbours, to the love of friendship and the love of family. They were friends. If you look at any letters of friends communicating to one another in the past, lets say 200 and more years ago, you'll see that friendships among everyone used to be more intimate than they are today, we just have a distorted view of them. This passage shows that tyrants did not want anyone taking them down, so they supressed such oppurtunities as those two

[Anonymous No.16142812]

>>16142733
>And as this is the festival of the Hermaea, the young men and boys are all together, and there is no separation between them. He will be sure to come: but if he does not, Ctesippus with whom he is familiar, and whose relation Menexenus is his great friend, shall call him.

The court case "Against Timarchus" may as well prove the whole passage false
>The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys.
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/aeschines.asp

They were not allowed to both be together, only boys were allowed, young men (aka those that reached adulthood, the status of a "man") were not allowed to enter under any condition. The sources that describe the actual laws, are much more accurate

[Anonymous No.16142835]

>>16142733
What do you want me to do next, to get it over with? Want me to prove that the Sacred band of Thebes was a complete myth and never existed, and neither did they believe it actually existed?

[Anonymous No.16142889]

>>16142762
>Aristogeniton and Hadmodius were not lovers, the word philio in greek, which is today translated as love
The subject they are praising in Symposium is Eros, not Philia. That they are speaking of 'eros' is verifiable by consulting the original Greek text.

>Even the tyrants learned this, for the eros of Aristogeiton and the philia of Harmodius becoming steadfast loosened their power.
>the eros of Aristogeiton and the philia of Harmodius
>Ἀριστογεί-τονος ἔρως καὶ ἡ Ἁρμοδίου φιλία
Symposium, 182b, c4-7

This passage makes clear that Aristogeiton is the erastes, and Harmodius the eromenos.

[Anonymous No.16142896]

>>16142835
The mythical nature of the band of Thebes is not important. What is important, sociologically, is that they are spoken of positively.

[Anonymous No.16142948]

>>16142889
>the eros of Aristogeiton and the philia of Harmodius

One thing to note firstly, is that Aristogeniton and Hadmodius did not act out of good or honest intentions or wanting to rid anyone of any tyrant, but out of nothing but jealousy, which in turn led to much a much harsher tyranny and despotism after they carried out their so called "tyrannicide", which carried on for years after this and started a reign of terror in Athens that saw countless Athenians murdered without trial at will, and only Spartans were able to finally rid them of this nightmare that dragged on for several years, all because of Harmodius, all because of pety arguments, so they were no heroes, instead they were themselves at fault for the nightmare. Secondly, if it was a pedastric relationships, they would both be called with the verb of "eros" as the root word, they were indeed not. And as I posted previously higher up, pedastry was indeed not allowed in Athens
>>16142896
Perhaps it is spoken of positively in Plato's dialogues, even though I'm not sure it is there, but Plato's thoughts differed much from the Athenian masses and the public at large, so we cannot take him as an example of what an average person thought

[Anonymous No.16142967]

>>16142889
Another passage from the Symposium

>[182b] and Boeotia and where there is no skill in speech they have simply an ordinance that it is seemly to gratify lovers, and no one whether young or old will call it shameful, in order, I suppose, to save themselves the trouble of trying what speech can do to persuade the youths; for they have no ability for speaking. But in Ionia and many other regions where they live under foreign sway, it is counted a disgrace.
Proof of what I posted above, they used Boetia as a scapegoat to prove them as barbarians for allowing this, proven this by Plato literally saying that they're illiterate and can't even speak
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DSym.%3Asection%3D182b

[Anonymous No.16142981]

>>16142889
>for Aristogeiton's love and Harmodius's friendship
>friendship
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DSym.%3Asection%3D182c

[Anonymous No.16143030]

>The lawgiver [Minos] gave much thought to the benefits of moderation in eating and also to the isolation of women, so that they not have many children.To this end he devised intercourse with males. There will be another occasion to examine whether or not this is a bad thing.
Aristotle's Politics 2.10, 1272a22–26

>>16142948
>Secondly, if it was a pedastric relationships, they would both be called with the verb of "eros" as the root word, they were indeed not.
No, since agency/desire was ascribed principally to the older partner. Hence the translation of erastes into "lover" and eromenos into "beloved." This is why there is a lot of poetry complaining about young men spurning old men's affections (Theognis, Theocritus, Strato etc).

I would agree that Plato's thoughts differed from Athenian popular opinion, but in the sense that he had a negative view of pederasty.
>>16142967
He is saying that their manners of courting are crude. Athens is praised for being the 'moderate' option - neither banning pederastic love, nor letting it be pursued in an uncivilised fashion.

>>16142981
That is one man's translation. I already showed you the Greek text (>>16142889), which clearly has both 'eros' and 'philia' - 'love' and 'friendship'. Neither of the translations we posted (Jowett's in my earlier post or Fowler's in your one) are entirely accurate renditions of the passage, for Jowett implies that both Aristogeiton and Harmodius were "lovers", omitting the word "friendship". Which is amusing, since you'd expect Jowett to be more censorious in his translation given that he was a devout Anglican from the 1800s.

[Anonymous No.16143091]

>>16143030
>>The lawgiver [Minos]
Firstly, Minos was mythological. Secondly, Aristotle never wrote this, whoever told you this is lying. You are free to check for yourself, he never wrote this

>No, since agency/desire was ascribed principally to the older partner. Hence the translation of erastes into "lover" and eromenos into "beloved." This is why there is a lot of poetry complaining about young men spurning old men's affections (Theognis, Theocritus, Strato etc).
Erastes and eromenos were the two terms to describe the so called "pedastric relationships", this is clearly referncing friendship on the part of one party involved, perhaps this could be interpreted as Harmodius not reciprocating because it was not allowed per the laws of Athens, as I already described above, seduction of youth was clearly outlawed

>Athens is praised for being the 'moderate' option - neither banning pederastic love, nor letting it be pursued in an uncivilised fashion.
We already proved above they indeed did not practice it at all, it was an educational relationship only. Timarchus was appealing to the Athenian public, so if anything it only proves both Plato and the masses were against it

[Anonymous No.16143174]

>>16142602
>he needs his belief to be validated and backed up
Look in the mirror, OP. Maybe you're the faggot.

[Anonymous No.16143191]

>>16143091
>Firstly, Minos was mythological.
Yes, and so were many of the things the Greeks took for granted as real parts of their history. Nevertheless, that they are attributing pederasty to an ancient lawgiver is significant.
>Secondly, Aristotle never wrote this, whoever told you this is lying. You are free to check for yourself, he never wrote this.
Fine, I will check for myself.

Jowett translation:
>The legislator has many ingenious ways of securing moderation in eating, which he conceives to be a gain; he likewise encourages the separation of men from women, lest they should have too many children, and the companionship of men with one another- whether this is a good or bad thing I shall have an opportunity of considering at another time.
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.2.two.html

Rackham translation:
>and the lawgiver has devised many wise measures to secure the benefit of moderation at table, and the segregation of the women in order that they may not bear many children, for which purpose he instituted association with the male sex, as to which there will be another occasion1 to consider whether it was a bad thing or a good one.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0058%3Abook%3D2%3Asection%3D1272a

>Timarchus was appealing to the Athenian public
Timarchus was the man being spoken against. Aeschines was the author of the speech. And the main immorality Aeschines was charging Timarchus with was prostituting himself. The advocate of 'noble' pederasty, Pausanias (whose lover, in the Symposium, is Agathon), would have considered Timarchus a disreputable character too.

Plato was writing for the Athenian public as well (by "public" we mean, of course, land owning men - who would have been the only people attending Aeschines speech).

[Anonymous No.16143266]

>>16143191
>as to which there will be another occasion1
>1 This promise is not fulfilled

Well, damn it, shame

>Timarchus was the man being spoken against. Aeschines was the author of the speech.
Yes, I confused them. And I was not looking at the main theme of the speech, as much as the laws he speaks of
>>The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter's husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age.
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/pwh/aeschines.asp
The speech against Timarchus is the best source on the public's view on pedastry

>The Aristotelian Problems describes the desire for passive sexual role in males as an anatomical/physiological abnormality, while the medical author Caelius Aurelianus regards homosexuality as a non-medical mental problem.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301206312_Appendix_A_Aristotle_and_Caelius_Aurelianus_on_Homosexuality

Alterantively, consult this
http://www.banap.net/spip.php?article202
It lists all sources.

[Anonymous No.16143271]

>>16143191
>Nevertheless, that they are attributing pederasty to an ancient lawgiver is significant.
And secondly as well, they are attributing it to mythology, they did not believe mythical stories to be real, the gods and myths were simply all possible facets of life represented in an abstract form. Lycurgus is an example of a lawgiver who was indeed real and not mythological

[Anonymous No.16143337]

>>16143266
>The Aristotelian Problems describes the desire for passive sexual role in males as an anatomical/physiological abnormality, while the medical author Caelius Aurelianus regards homosexuality as a non-medical mental problem.
>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301206312_Appendix_A_Aristotle_and_Caelius_Aurelianus_on_Homosexuality
Note: passive role. It was considered shameful for an adult male citizen to take the passive role in sex (but not a boy or woman - though intercrural sex was preferred and considered less demeaning to the younger male partner). For the Greeks it wasn't heterosexual/homosexual that determined a person's masculinity or effeminacy, but active/passive.

Here's the opening line from Caelius Aurelianus medical treatise:
>No one readily believes that effeminate or sexually passive men (whom the Greeks callmalthacoi) are actually suffering from a disease.
Caelius Aurelianus,On Chronic Disorders 4.9

It is also worth noting that Aurelianus lived in Rome and wrote during the 2nd century AD, so his attitudes are not necessarily those of 4th century BC Athenians.

>The speech against Timarchus is the best source on the public's view on pedastry.
Not really. There are hundreds of Greek texts that reference it. The very website you linked to has some other examples, though it's not exhaustive. Plus a prohibition on the seduction of minors in gymnasiums does not translate to a prohibition on pederasty in general. Suitors were expected to win the approval of the beloved's family. You should note that Athenians popularly revered famous lovers like Achilles and Patroclus (I'm not saying that Homer portrayed them as lovers, but beginning as early as Aeschylus 'Achilleis' in the 5th century BC, that is how they were interpreted) and Harmodius and Argeiton.

Surely a good barometer of public warmth toward pederasty would be literature performed publicly, such as Pindar's odes, Aeschylus' plays, etc. Especially since they won prizes and were widely copied and preserved.

>>16143271
>they did not believe mythical stories to be real, the gods and myths were simply all possible facets of life represented in an abstract form.
What. They certainly did believe that the gods and many of the mythological people were real. You can't seriously be suggesting that the Greeks, as a people, were not polytheists - obviously not everyone has to subscribe to the culture's mainstream belief system, but the majority did.

[Anonymous No.16143456]

>>16143337
I think we are at a misunderstanding, I am not arguing that homosexuality did not exist, but that they had clear prohibitons instituted upon it, much more so than in th modern age, and it was definitely not as universal as it is believed to be today, and pedastry was firstly viewed as an educational relationship for passage into manhood to be able to be a proper citizen of the state and be knowledgable of the affairs no matter what you're view on the sexual component may have been, it was not a private affair, but a public one, and whatever the case may be it at one point ceased when it was completed, and the boy was expected to have a family and marry. While some states, like Sparta, completely banned it, and I'll leave it to you to determine where the most discplined and honorable men came from. My point was that the modern view of it is very distorted, it was not wholly accepted like it is today. Although some homoerotic components may have existed in pedastry, those who were legitimately homosexual were viewed as an abnormality, because the relationship was expected to end at a point and not continue, and it was expected of both parties to have families and a wive, they very much understood the imprortance of the family unit

[l'chaim !!NW31gwdgGBV No.16143637]

>>16142602
We can't recommend you a book that perpetuates myth.

[Anonymous No.16143709]

There is a reason homophobes are considered closet fags
They are both incredibly obnoxious and obsessed with men fucking each other’s asses