/wg/ - Writing General #6

[Anonymous No.16128875]

For talking about the craft.
Last one was excellent lads, keep it up.
Previous: >>16094004

[Anonymous No.16128892]

>>16128875
Reminder that writing mostly comes down to talent.

[Anonymous No.16128930]

>>16128892
>first post murders the thread

[Anonymous No.16128935]

>>16128892
Can you learn talent?

[Anonymous No.16128938]

Nothing interesting ever happens in these threads. It’s just a bunch of genre fags repeating advice they heard somewhere else while retards keep asking “how do I stop myself from playing video games??”

[Anonymous No.16128951]

>>16128938
Sounds pretty comfy ngl.

[Anonymous No.16128965]

>>16128031
Just a general tip, but when you do something for the first time ever, you might want to look up a guide or something. There's documentation online for virtually everything from how to build a moon rocket in your backyard to how to fellate a blue whale, and there is simply no excuse in the year 2020 for not knowing how to arrange words on a page. You could've, like, picked any random book from your own shelf and checked the basic metrics of how it's done. I'm sure you can do better, anon, and help others do better, and let this be the last time we see laziness of this magnitude here.

[Anonymous No.16128971]

>>16128875
Finally someone linked it from the old one.

>>16128938
What would be interesting according to you?

[Anonymous No.16128972]

>>16128935
Talent is the rate at which you learn.

[Anonymous No.16128987]

>>16128938
I will repeat the same advice until you faggots get some fucking willpower and listen to it or stop coming to these threads.

[Anonymous No.16129027]

It's so hard finding agents to query for a young adult book that has a male lead. Basically everyone says they want female or LGBT characters. Was /pol/ right all along, anons?

[Anonymous No.16129056]

>>16129027
Show me a single agent from MSWL who says they don't want a male or non lgbtqa+123 lead.

[Anonymous No.16129059]

>>16128972
>>16128935
Talent is your upper and lower limits and generally, it's a narrow range. Most writers don't get much farther than where they started and if they were good (meaning work that's gone through revision to push it to their upper limits), they were good from the beginning.

[Anonymous No.16129065]

>>16128938
What's wrong with video games?

[Anonymous No.16129074]

>>16129065
About the same as reading trash fiction.

[Anonymous No.16129081]

>>16128938
I'm retarded so I don't get certain literary terms
How do you write non-genre

Like, I get Fantasy and Thriller relies on certain tropes and story beats and I get that can be considered as relying on the genre to carry you through but I have no idea how you'd write out of genre.
Surely drama covers a lot of it

>philosophy or non-fiction
Other than that like

[Anonymous No.16129092]

>>16129056
They aren't saying they don't want them, they are just not publishing them if they include them.

They only want Gays and Women.

[Anonymous No.16129113]

>>16129074
>Vidya isn't a valid form of ar-

[Anonymous No.16129124]

>>16129113
Not him but
>wooah rule of thirds bro

[Anonymous No.16129134]

>>16129056
What the other anon said. They say what they're looking for, and looking at their publishing history, it seems like that's basically the only thing many of them are looking for.

[Anonymous No.16129137]

>>16129081
It's probably the same anon who went "woe is me I'm writing a 400 page philosophy book no one will read :(" from a thread or two ago

[Anonymous No.16129155]

>>16128875
Would anyone want to read something that I wrote yesterday while in alcoholic stupor?
Its in spanish

[Anonymous No.16129165]

>>16129092
>>16129134
Based on what? There are barely any YA books with non hetero characters in relevant roles that make big bucks. There are far more with female protagonists (since there are also more female writers) but most of these have male POV characters too, and the more successful ones that actually get their movies tend to have male MCs.

[Anonymous No.16129185]

>>16129081
>How do you write non-genre
First, you read The Hero with a Thousand Faces, then spend hours each week browsing tvtropes and feeling that you're better than everyone for understanding tropes. Then you read about a ton of literary authors and idolize them without reading much of their work. Then you write a story that tries not to use any of them and you convince others it's superior. That's the /lit/ version.

Alternately, you write a story that explores a complex facet of the human condition while still being entertaining and worth reading. This is hard though, so do the other one.

[Anonymous No.16129191]

Why does it feel like these threade are mostly comprised of ESL's? Not hating, curious

[Anonymous No.16129225]

>>16129165
Anon, you seem to be misunderstanding, I'm not trying to argue. I'm just searching for agents specialized in young adult and shocked by how many are requesting (and have in the past only published) stories with female leads or LGBT leads. There are obviously people out there who would publish ones with male leads, but they're far fewer than I had hoped.

[Anonymous No.16129229]

>>16128938
You know, you're right. Next time I'll put a writing prompt in the OP. The last thread lasted 5 days, that's enough to write a 1k words-long short story. The other day I saw a thread about rewriting the Steamed Hams scene in your own style (>>16097976), but it had to be bumped several times.

For now people could post erotic fanfiction you've written. The average drawfag is a degenerate, I don't see why writefags would be any more pious.

>>16129113
I don't see any literature, so off to
>>>/tv/
>>>/v/
you go.

>>16129155
lmao si

[Anonymous No.16129230]

>>16129191
People who speak multiple languages tend to be more educated and well read, making them more likely to start writing. If they happen to be stuck in some third world hellhole, it probably adds the motivation to write too.

[Anonymous No.16129237]

>>16129191
if you check the sites demographics it makes sense

[Anonymous No.16129265]

>>16129225
But why are you making the assumption they won't publish male leads based on their history when their requirements or the market doesn't suggest it. It's just more likely there are fewer of these in manuscript form. How many males do you know who want to write YA instead of some neckbeard-y fantasy/sci fi?

[Anonymous No.16129304]

>>16129229
> I don't see why writefags would be any more pious.
You can bet your ass, the second I started to be able to draw the human form somewhat okay, I went with boobies. With writing there never was any sort of temptation and most sex scenes feel like a boring distraction from the characters and plot.

[Anonymous No.16129340]

>>16129081
Think of genre as form and then blend them together and elevate them with good writing. Dickens literally wrote romcom thrillers (read the ending of GE when Pip gets captured if you don't believe me, its Bond villain tier). Moby Dick is a Frankenstein's monster of forms. It's an adventure novel (taking place at a sea, a sub-genre), an epic, a prose poem, a collection of essays, hell one chapter is written as a play. That's what's about, playing around with forms and seeing what new thing you can make. Trash genre fic happens when you do the opposite and slavishly follow established beats.

[Anonymous No.16129382]

>>16129340
Not him but what if you're doing something in between. Take Hunger Games, if she left out the love triangle crap and went more into the politics and power dynamics between the districts and found more plausible ways to explain the oppression, wouldn't it be still YA but also closer to more respected works like 1984, BNW or Animal Farm?

And of course there is Dante who literally wrote fan-fiction but gets away with it by doing it well.

[Anonymous No.16129419]

>>16129265
If someone has only published female leads and LGBT books and they say specifically that they want female leads and LGBT characters, no, it's not a certainty that they won't publish a book with a male lead, but it's logical to assume they aren't looking for one and I would have better luck sending the manuscript to people who have published male lead books in their past catalog, and who don't specify that they are looking specifically for female. I understand the young adult market is mostly women, I'm just complaining that it is, therefore, difficult to find those who want male leads. And there are LGBTQ+ requests everywhere so I made a /pol/ joke. I feel like I'm belaboring the point now and have exhausted this far more than it needed to be exhausted. Goodbye, anon.

[Anonymous No.16129542]

>>16128971
Well, I’m the theoryfag from the first few threads, so that sort of thing interests me, even if I’m not the most insightful analyst myself. I liked when people bashed my “storycraft vs wordcraft” essay because it was just a restatement of “form and function”. I knew my idea probably wasn’t original, I just didn’t know what search terms to use to find out what others had said about it.
I guess what I’d to see is more discussion of actual writing techniques backed up with examples from accomplished authors as opposed to the same shit you see on the front page of google when you search “how does I make a book?”

Something concrete, useful, and somewhat original. Take for instance, I was reading George Orwell’s “Burmese Days” and I thought it was interesting how well he characterized the main character. How Flory had been mocked for his grotesque birthmark his entire life, and how this probably influenced his sympathy for the natives of Burma (because he knows what it feels like to be judged entirely on your appearance). I also liked the way Orwell established Veraswami as a foil to Flory: Veraswami’s reverence for the English was very similar to Flory’s reverence for Elizabeth, with similar results. Does anyone else have a similar example of (what you consider to be) a flawless execution of basic literary techniques? Characterization, symbolism, rhythm in prose? Anything at all?

[Anonymous No.16129576]

>>16129542
I do. And I've compiling such examples (with a corresponding theory of storytelling) for my personal use but I see no reason to share pearls with swine. Also you should know that such study doesn't actually make you a better writer--a better critic maybe (even that's debatable). The methods which do are more procedural and require much more effort than sterile dissection.

[Anonymous No.16129714]

>>16129576
Now we’re getting somewhere! I’d somewhat agree with your belief that a writer should develop his own theory of storytelling and probably keep most of it a secret (similar to how magicians don’t reveal the mechanics of their illusions) but at the same time I’d argue that the sheer effort of writing discourages thievery and imitation; if someone isn’t willing to put in the effort to develop their own skills then they probably don’t have the discipline to write 100,000 words. It’s not difficult to find directions to good gold-hunting locations, but very few people are willing to sift through dirt for hours on end.

[Anonymous No.16129867]

>>16128875
I’m currently trying to come up with some titles for a book series I’m doing. I wanted to ask if these titles are attention grabbing or not?
Title of the series: the lands beyond here
Book 1: the hidden grove
Book 2: among wooden giants
Book 3: green grassy seas

[Anonymous No.16129970]

/wg/, i'm trying to figure out a character i had an idea for but I'm not sure what to do with him. The character in question has experience making things that explode, hates magic, and has an ability that combines the two: he can make spells blow up in the caster's faces

trying to figure him out is complicated because I don't want him to be an edgelord a zealot, or another conceited asshole, but I'm worried making him too goofy create a major clash between powers and personality.

at this point, my best idea is to make him a mad scientist but the personality doesn't appeal to me as much as the idea of making him a goofy dumbass does

[Anonymous No.16130015]

>>16129576
>I see no reason to share pearls with swine
Laughable arrogance. Anyone who cares can still rip the fruits of your studies straight from your texts -- provided you every finish or publish any. More likely, you're afraid someone else will grasp the essence of your samples faster and execute it better. But surely no mere swine should be capable of that, yes?

[Anonymous No.16130035]

>>16129970
With a premise like that, there's nothing else he can be but a Gary stu edgelord

[Anonymous No.16130067]

>>16130015
Way to completely miss my point.

[Anonymous No.16130091]

>>16129867
"Among wooden giants" stands out more. "The hidden grove" is too generic, and "Green grassy seas" sounds like a Super Mario 64 level. "The lands beyond here" is pretty awkward.

>>16130015
Don't worry about it, anon. He's LARPing, like everyone else.

[Anonymous No.16130145]

>>16129970

wait, I think I just got an idea.

>The character in question is a dumbass who grew up reading the harry potter books. he thought they were real and that deatheaters in the ministry of magic were controlling every aspect of society. To deal with them he builds pipe bombs.

unlike the other characters, he's introduced as the main character's neighbor before the plot kicks off and doesn't return until a book or two later when he finally gets sucked into the plot

[Anonymous No.16130184]

>>16129970
>a major clash between powers and personality
And where is the issue with that? Someone stupidly powerful is more likely to be jovial since there isn't too much of things to make them feel involved. Being able to make spells backfire against the caster sounds pretty powerful, so being an anti magic zealot who hunts magic users or someone laid back who looks down at them seem the most likely directions for me. Only misses WHY the reader would care about him.

>>16130145
Someone that stupid being able to source materials for and build pipe bounds sounds ... not too authentic.

What is the actual purpose of the character, why do you want to have this guy in your story and how does he move the plot forward?

[Anonymous No.16130199]

>>16130067
That "study doesn't make you a better writer"? Which is complete horse shit. Unless what you meant was, doing "nothing but" analysis doesn't make you a writer at all. Which is too obvious for words

[Anonymous No.16130204]

Would anyone critique my dialogue in the scene in pic related? I'm trying to give the reader a sense of how the character got where he is, but the explanations feel wooden.

This is an expository scene, but I have no idea how to handle this correctly. I know Robert Mckee says 'use exposition as ammunition' but this character's backstory isn't really massive drama, it just helps to make him less of a boring character, I guess.

I just don't know how to make a conversation of exposition more interesting. Any insight/critique is welcome.

And yes, I'm an ESL, that's part of why dialogue is a struggle for me.

[Anonymous No.16130232]

>>16130199
Not him but probably every specific writing technique you wouldn't generally read and know about are basically the equivalent of brushes for painters. It's interesting to know when you've seen the work done with it but pretty worthless by itself.

[Anonymous No.16130290]

>>16130184
>What is the actual purpose of the character, why do you want to have this guy in your story and how does he move the plot forward?

originally, it was just because I built my characters around a motif and there was a glaring hole in the cast, but i think I can actually do quite a lot with this charcter

>in his initial appearance where he's a minor character I plan to use him to drop some foreshadowing about the setting and as way to add some exposition about one of the themes of the story and the main character's internal conflict
>in later books, his presence means when I need to introduce new characters in later books i can use him as one of them
>in addition, I might be able pin the entirety of a cataclysmic event on him

as for how a dumbass could make pipe bombs, I'm writing comedic fantasy. the bar for realism is pretty low

[Anonymous No.16130321]

>>16130204
"My value system was very different from hers" sounds way to self-reflective and analytical for the situation. If you want to work it in, I'd add it into some sort of thought from the narrator. Or one can leave it out all together and let the reader conclude. Also while not exactly the dialogue, I'm not too found of using orange twice in such a short time period before. The imagery with a cigarette was strong enough, and less tends to be more.

Generally I'm more confused by the events outside of the dialogue, why is the conversation happening in the first place? Not knowing that, makes it hard to judge whether the information in the conversation is appropriate or not. The "field promotion" for example, I have no clue whether it's meant seriously or not. It generally kinda sounds like an interrogation, so you can take things slower and describe more of what happened.

Then the switch from "we shifted into Ireland to soldiers at the gates" is confusing without knowing the relevance of the gates or how the shifting works, more info could actually be more here.

Then I got even more confusing by this fucker answering a why-question with a yes.

>I just don't know how to make a conversation of exposition more interesting
A super easy way would be a conflict of interests. The narrator wants to know stuff which Torsten doesn't want to tell him, or they both try to figure what went wrong with the conflict being created by the situation itself. Basically, there needs to be a goal for each participant of the conversation and the dialogue is a path towards it.

[Anonymous No.16130324]

>>16130204
In the very first sentence you switch tenses. They "sat" (past tense) but the thing they sat on "has been" (present tense). This isn't about your dialogue but it still needs addressing. In this case it's as simple as changing "that's" to "that'd".

Your dialogue is okay. It does feel a little too identifiable as exposition. "Why didn't you just leave?" feels like it appears too abruptly along with the other questions from the narrator. Maybe head into it with a bit of a tangent so it doesn't feel like a Q&A session.

[Anonymous No.16130332]

>>16130204
Post this in the crit thread >>16092982

[Anonymous No.16130351]

>>16128875
I always delete the shit I write cause I can't tolerate how bad it is

[Anonymous No.16130361]

>>16129867
Seems bland but most titles are like that.

>>16129970
There is a WEBTOON series where the MC isn’t very powerful magic/mana wise but is extremely proficient at what is essentially a form of counter spell. Like most WEBTOON he is now a bit of an edgelord but he started as a down to earth Everyman.

[Anonymous No.16130367]

>>16129155
no

[Anonymous No.16130371]

>>16130321
Thank you for the input, I'm kind of positively surprised, I thought it'd get really torn apart. I understand it's confusing, since it's just a random page from the middle of my sci-fi book. The 'value system' line I used because the character is a kind of armchair philosopher, but I agree it's a bit too on the nose here. Will definitely edit it.

>>16130324
Thanks. Will do. My protag is very bossy, that's why she always speaks directly and 'tells people what to do'. But she's not a very good character, I think that's a big reason why this novel won't work. It's 60% finished though so might as well write it to the end.

>>16130332
I'd rather be critiqued by people interested in writing than by people interested in critiquing.

[Anonymous No.16130424]

>>16130204
How to make wordpad nigger color?

[Anonymous No.16130436]

>>16130424
It's Scrivener, not poorpad

[Anonymous No.16131154]

bump

[Anonymous No.16131255]

Stop posting on 4chan and write 3 pages a day about anything every single day

[Anonymous No.16131282]

>>16131255
>write 3 pages a day about anything every single day
>about anything

Here's the hump I canny get over.
Even though I know my writing will never be read by anyone, I struggle to write anything knowing that.
I wish I could write for my own enjoyment, but it does feel like my mental health has turned me into some nothing robot, just surviving to get by, while being as background as possible.

I wish I had a hobby I could enjoy.

[Anonymous No.16131299]

>>16131282
A good test to see if you're in the right state of mind to write is to read something that you loved in the past. If you find even that repulsive then there's probably something else you need to take care of first.

[Anonymous No.16131302]

>>16131282
Now go on and write about this feeling further.

That said I find these routines and encouragements pointless. People who actually care about writing won't need the reminders to write and how to get to it, while people who do it to try out a new hobby will probably quit soon either way.

[Anonymous No.16131307]

>>16130436
Beta I take it?

[Anonymous No.16131310]

>this fucking thread again
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahah
holy shit you're all such fucking losers LMFAO
craft? craft????????
the nearest thing any of you talentless shitheads are getting to craft is microwave mac & cheese
LMAO

[Anonymous No.16131351]

>>16128875
Is it possible to make money writing, or is that a meme

[Anonymous No.16131407]

>>16131351
Everything is possible. You could make money playing games. It's just not very likely.

[Anonymous No.16131468]

>>16126168
What if I were to backtrack into the story and pick up a plot thread or make a new subplot that ends with that character landing on the Moon?
Could that work?

[Anonymous No.16131493]

>>16128938
Honestly I'll take the genrefags over all the tards who think they're going to be the next dfw

[Anonymous No.16131505]

>>16131282
>Even though I know my writing will never be read by anyone, I struggle to write anything knowing that.
Sounds like you're attaching too much of your ego to this. This is inevitable when it comes to something like this of course, considering how much of themselves people pour into their writing. And you ought to want at least one person to read yourq stuff, that's natural.
Still, for that notion to hinder your ability to do the deed means It's still a hump you just have to get over though, there's no ifs or buts about it. You have to get over yourself.
>>16131302
I like to try anyway.

[Anonymous No.16131509]

>>16131468
How implausible is the character appearing on the moon? Is your story is set in 15th century France … yeah, you might want to do some side plot about their journey there. Is it a more modern setting where it's easy to travel in space? Hinting their desire or lack of desire to go could be enough.

[Anonymous No.16131546]

Finished a novella. Published it on amazon. Found a girl on reddit to review it. Few days later she responds saying she didn't finish it because she didn't like it. Gave a page of notes on why, there was one major legitimate point, the rest were fair.

The book is a sci-fi, no female characters (at least that appear in a major way 'on screen' in the story), and is essentially a conversation between two men. She's not exactly the intended audience, but boy it sucks to get DNF'd.

[Anonymous No.16131575]

>>16131546
>The book is a sci-fi, no female characters
>is essentially a conversation between two men
Yikes. It's pretty amazing you got an entire page of review despite it.

[Anonymous No.16131578]

>>16131575
Cool, so I shouldn't feel too demoralized?

[Anonymous No.16131579]

>>16130184
>Someone that stupid being able to source materials for and build pipe bounds sounds ... not too authentic.

Plenty of people of the Islamic faith make bombs. Sounds realistic to me.

[Anonymous No.16131617]

>>16131578
Well, it's as you said, there is a clear mismatch between the work and the audience. And unless she is just super polite and nice or paid, it's likely there were enough positive elements (or at least elements to cause an emotion) to make her do it … which doesn't sound too bad.

>>16131579
It doesn't take someone to be a complete brainlet to fall for religious propaganda that's everywhere. Thinking Harry Potter could be real would require someone with low double digit IQ or serious ass mental issues which would make simply daily life pretty hard.

[Anonymous No.16131697]

Horror writer here who has just made a brand new Discord for horror writers (and creators of related artwork). I plan to keep the server free of children and idiots, so it should be a nice environment.

https://discord.gg/pRu6XZ

[Anonymous No.16131789]

>>16131697
Says invite is invalid.

[Anonymous No.16131808]

>>16131789
So much for the no-idiots clause.

https://discord.gg/xgbVV4

[Anonymous No.16131823]

>>16131808
Are we always bound to become what we choose to fight?

[Anonymous No.16131877]

>>16131697
How long until this just basically becomes a impromptu /wg/ discord? I wouldn't mind since I'm not a horror writer

[Anonymous No.16131883]

>>16131808
Wtf did you delete the server? Dead link again.

[Anonymous No.16131997]

Reminder:

Remember to be trans when querying agents.

[Anonymous No.16132004]

>>16131883
No, i'm just a MORON
https://discord.gg/R5WVzH9

[Anonymous No.16132156]

>>16129229
>>16130367
i-its less than a page!
But as I said I wrote while being drunk, and I don't even remember what I was trying to make.
https://pastebin.com/r8dLJVct

[Anonymous No.16132196]

How many coincidences and unknows can the reader handle without being too annoyed when it's actually one of the themes of the work and alternative explanations are mentioned by the character? (Especially when the coincides are presented as helpful but not crucial for advancement)

For example, the MC is in jail, has a few escape plans on his own but then an (seemingly) unrelated side orchestrates a jailbreak, and he goes along with it. Or he discovers that he has an OP power, assumes a certain person granted it to him, and doesn't bother finding out more.

As a writer I DO know the answers for all the stuff but since it's not what the plot is about nor what the character cares about, I thought skipping the explanations would be okay.

[Anonymous No.16132426]

>>16129867
Write the story first then make a title

[Anonymous No.16132626]

>>16129113
It's totally derivative of a based author. It is art but it has a caveat.

[Anonymous No.16132660]

>>16130204
Not bad. Your intuition is correct, the dialogue is noticeably weak, but overall this is much better than the shit usually posted on this god-forsaken web-board. Keep going.

[Anonymous No.16133215]

Anybody have any advice on how to become a writer for comic books?
I've been writing as a hobby since I was like 8, but in the last couple months I've decided to try and do it more seriously. At first, my goal was to get published in any publication that would accept my stories, but I started thinking about what I would really want to do, and since I am a petulant manchild that still reads picture books, it would be pretty neat to do that.

[Anonymous No.16133266]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLg_wp0IXoI

I've been listening to this on loop while I plan my fantasy novel
It's coming along great right now

[Anonymous No.16133528]

>spend almost two weeks and stupid amounts of alcohol to fine tune my synopsis
>still don't like it
Is it time to call quits and just roll with whatever I have since most agents don't even require one? It seems technically functional but also likely to get too many huh?'s because even the barebones of my big brain plot can't be summed up with 600 words.

[Anonymous No.16133541]

>>16133528
Post synopsis if you're gonna trash it
Maybe it's better than you think

[Anonymous No.16133586]

>>16133541
I cunt. Agents are pretty pissy about things being available elsewhere, and as unlikely it is for them to stubble over it here, why roll the dice.

Not going to trash it either, in the end it's probably the best I can come up with, so it's either hoping shit's passable enough or raping my brain for another week. And, man, I'm not even sure I can do that. Never had as little fun during any other aspect of writing/journey of getting published.

[Anonymous No.16133603]

>>16133215
Learn to draw. At the very least enough to do storyboards. There's that one good book on comics that contains pretty much all you need to know. Study that. Comics are unironically closer to film than literature in terms of the emphasis on montage. It's important to get a feel for that before you start writing for it.

[Anonymous No.16133610]

>>16133586
Pastebin it for a day you loser, no one is gonna copy and paste your stupid shit to prevent any decent story from being shared across the world. How else would we shitpost about it?

[Anonymous No.16133625]

>>16133610
>How else would we shitpost about it?
Me shilling it with AMA threads AFTER I get signed.

[Anonymous No.16133695]

>>16128875
>been working on a fiction for about a month
>go visit my aunt and uncle
>get to chatting with them, immediately get like a dozen ideas for scenes just from the stories they told me

Apparently my aunt dated a falconer for several years and taught one of his hawks to play fetch after it imprinted on her. Like it would waddle along the ground after a stick and return it. Built a character out of her description of that.

It's really interesting how every good scene and character I have sketched out so far is based on something that either happened to me or someone I know.

[Anonymous No.16133725]

>write the first page of a short story
>don't feel like writing the rest
>"I already have the outline of it, I'll eventually do it"
Anyone else?

[Anonymous No.16133821]

>>16129185
Underrated

[Anonymous No.16133854]

>>16133725
I just add it to my personal wiki of an interconnected universe
In a few years, I'll relapse on amphetamines and write a 3500 page epic that combines 50 short stories into a beautiful narrative.

[Anonymous No.16134236]

>>16133725
>I can't wait to write today
>read /crit/
>read anons getting shit on and told to quit, while I think their stuff isn't entirely awful
>feel bad about my own writing and don't write the entire day

[Anonymous No.16134443]

>>16134236
It's just 4chan. There are no public spaces where you have easy access to truly good critique. Don't mistake a lack of sugarcoating feelgood bullshit for real critique, a lot of replies here will be low effort shitposts because that's the spirit of this place.

[Anonymous No.16134545]

>>16129191
1. because every other regional (german), if even existing, plattform for discussion is censored spookridden hellhole waiting for you to drop some "hatespeech" to v& you.
2. biggest audience, closest to freespech. in a darwinistic way, this gives access to the best, most evolutioned, worthwhile discussion/critique/help to whatever you need to know, because in a free system usually the best strives to the top. even though the gems here are piled under masses of shit. also the humor.
if people are not allowed or to scared to tell me flat out, that my work sucks dick, because of "muh feelings", then I and my work will never evolve into something good

[Anonymous No.16134618]

>have idea for fantasy-ish series (too long for just one book most likely) and keeps getting longer
>have something like 300 pages of notes
>scared of actually starting to write because if I come up with something better later I'll have to go back and rewrite it all
Anyone else struggle with this?

[Anonymous No.16134626]

>>16134618
this can't be real

[Anonymous No.16134634]

>>16128938
Then why are you here?

[Anonymous No.16134673]

>>16134618
Well, I have 50k words of notes and cut scenes for a novel that's 100k words and insane amounts of notes and ideas for the sequels, prequels, stand alones, and so on. That's not counting like 50 pages of world building shit. Oh, almost forgot 3 fat binders full of character and building sketches, plans, tech, etc.

And some point you have to realize that none of the stuff is worth much without a story, have to decide on one and make it work. There will always be a cool new gimmick, an interesting character, some amazing location to visit and who knows what else. Besides, the sooner you experience the contrast between your ideas and your writing, the sooner you can start improving your writing.

[Anonymous No.16134710]

>>16129059
Where do you get this idea? What's the source of this knowledge?

[Anonymous No.16134791]

>>16131307
No, just go to options -> appearance and switch the colors you baka.

[Anonymous No.16134806]

>>16134618
I, conversely, am on the third book of a fantasy series, and have zero notes whatsoever besides a sheet of paper with a name list so I never forget the spellings. And your world will probably be no more developed than mine.

[Anonymous No.16134818]

>>16134806
Well, unlike him you actually have a world. Anon only has notes of one.

[Anonymous No.16134839]

>book on how to write pulps
>examples try so hard to be witty that it's corny, if not cringy
Did Americans really...
Or are we just so used to post-modern, post-ironic humor, that writing that was witty in the 50's sounds retarded now?

[Anonymous No.16134847]

>>16134839
The latter. Go download some sci-fi magazines from the 20s and it's a whole new world.

[Anonymous No.16134866]

>>16134618

Just throw it out and start over bro

[Anonymous No.16134869]

>>16134673
you could all encapsulate this shortstories in the story of a dying author, whose lawyer is dropping the work in a nonstoryline related way...

[Anonymous No.16134928]

ITT: clueless idiots who don't know shit inform other clueless idiots on shit they don't know

[Anonymous No.16134956]

>>16134673
>>16134866
Yeah, I'm gonna start working on a chapter outline. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.16135677]

>>16134928
blow it out your ass

[Anonymous No.16136523]

>>16129081
Actually “literary fiction” has become a genre in and of itself, basically attempting to write something which speaks some truth about the world in an innovative way.
But anyway, by genrefags I mean the retards itt who would obviously rather be making anime or video games but feel as though they have to settle for books instead. Discussing shit like what “powers” their characters have and prattling on about the fictional world they’ve invented and complaining that they don’t have any ideas for the actual story. These threads are filled with faggots who mistake fantasizing for planning.

[Anonymous No.16136976]

>>16136523
But where are the "real" writers? Nowhere. There are only occasional fags yelling complaints from the bushes while contributing nothing at all, not even one half-hearted piece of advice which they lament is missing. There are one or two who present themselves as published mentors, yet who fail to produce a scrap of proof for their alleged achievements, and just keep repeating "muh literary career", and "dude just trust me", and guard their nonexistent ideas and methodology with the jealousy of an angry dragon.

These threads belong to those who actually participate, submit samples and get shit done, even if it's just notes, drafts, and ideas. Whining about that is even more worthless than nothing.

[Anonymous No.16137084]

>>16134236
>post on /crit/
>get positively reviewed, with fair and objective criticism

[Anonymous No.16137105]

>>16136976
I admit, as unnecessarily bitter as you sound I can't help but agree at least partly to what you're moaning about. My eyes do glaze over a little when I see the 20th post talking about how "oh no I have so much worldbuilding notes but I don't have a single clue as to what the story will be, aww shucks". There is a part of me that wonders why they want to write in this format to begin with if they're struggling so hard to come up with a narrative.
You're thinking about it too much though. Let it go lmao

[Anonymous No.16137208]

>>16136976
I’ve written three essays in these threads since they’ve started, trying to develop a discussion beyond “I’m thinking of writing a character that blah blah blah” or “I’ll probably never get published because I’m white and straight”
This is all just larping nonsense, these discussions are more about feeling like a capital “W” writer than actually progressing in skill. No one is getting anything done here, they’re running around in tiny circles.
You could argue that I’m the problem here, continuously visiting these threads which I apparently hate when I could be developing yet another pseud theory for my own usage, but there are nuggets of good discussion here that go completely ignored amidst the sea of circlejerking.

[Anonymous No.16137229]

>>16137208
>no one is getting anything done here
I've gotten sound advice from anons in these threads that has encouraged me to write further. I wouldn't be so quick to speak in absolutes

[Anonymous No.16137574]

>>16137208
>No one is getting anything done here, they’re running around in tiny circles
>I’ve written three essays in these threads since they’ve started
Shall I call you a liar or a fool, your choice

[Anonymous No.16137636]

>>16137208
Please link them. I was thinking of collecting useful pieces of advice/interesting insights from these threads into a paste, and linking it in the OP, along with proposing a writing prompt. As they say, "idle hands are the devil's tools".

>>16137229
>I wouldn't be so quick to speak in absolutes
Exactly. If even one single person gets something useful out of these threads, then it wasn't a waste to have them. Another shit thread with far less potential to lead to worthwhile discussion (/pol/bait, Jezebelposting, etc...) would've taken their place, otherwise, and people who'd rather shitpost than write wouldn't have written anything anyway.

[Anonymous No.16138117]

>>16137208
I think it mostly comes down to the fact that

1. There's few to no pro writers on lit.
2. There really isn't all that much to say about writing that would actually help someone improve.

I'm assuming you're the same guy that wrote that longwinded post about "storycraft and wordcraft" some threads ago or that other guy that posted a pastebin of some pseud dogmatic theory of storytelling based on the Aristotelian model and a list of "techniques" stolen from other books.

More helpful than those things would be probably a discussion on process. For instance, Butler talks about this in his book, the idea that you should get into a trance state before you start writing. Many (in fact, nearly all) authors have described something similar, all the way from antiquity (wherein they inject a supernatural aspect, god or the muse).

But how do you actually get into such a state? Murakami talks about keeping to an extremely rigid routine when he writes novels, so that the routine itself induces a kind of auto-hypnosis. Many authors would take long walks, Dickens was especially famous for it. Dickens would also act out his characters and make expressions in the mirror and mutter dialogue under his breath, completely absorbed in his work. Other authors have very specific rituals before they start, some mundane, others quite extraordinary. Cheever for example wrote in his boxers. Hemingway wrote while standing. And of course authorly alcoholism is practically a cliche. I think that's also why a lot of authors recommend a writing habit, but the important thing isn't the wordcount (well, it is, more on that below), but creating some kind of association between your environment and the trance state so that you can induce it as soon as you sit down (or stand up). Some writers book hotel rooms. Some write only in trains. At least one author has completed his book on a transcontinental flight.

The other bit is what to do when you're stuck. Does all this analysis help in those cases? Well, maybe, but I think it has more to do with mental blocks that prevent you from going into the trance. If you can't get into the trance, you can't write--you can edit, but the act of creation becomes dentistry. This is where the wordcount can help. But again, the idea is to have a doable minimum: 1 good page, or even 1 good line--if you're doing it full time, 4 pages (or 40). The worst thing that can happen is the negative feelings become associated with your writing environment. Then you can't even sit down to write, you forget all about the high of being in the zone and remember only the birthing pains. I think what writer's need most is a "safe space", both physical and ritual, wherein they are free to dream.

[Anonymous No.16138327]

>>16138117
>The worst thing that can happen is the negative feelings become associated with your writing environment. Then you can't even sit down to write, you forget all about the high of being in the zone and remember only the birthing pains.
Hit it right on the tin. This past week I couldn't even look at my desk much less sit down and open the laptop up. I circumvented this some by writing some stuff on my phone in a different part of the house, but that obviously wasn't ideal and it resulted in me turning out a lower word count over a greater length of time.

[Anonymous No.16138495]

>>16138117
>Hemingway wrote while standing.
Holy kek, I didn't know Papa was a standing deck hipster before it was cool.

[Anonymous No.16138633]

guys help
>>16138337

[Anonymous No.16138739]

>>16138633
Describe this. Don't sweat it, don't try to use purple prose just because it's a marble statue, just write whatever comes to mind and then hit post.

Hint: don't just stop at an objective description, but think about what these characters are thinking and feeling, and try to convey it in your description.

[Anonymous No.16138794]

>>16138739
Not him but I ever saw much of a point in these exercises since it doesn't include the character of the observer and the situation they are in, to justify describing it in the first place. Descriptions should serve a story purpose, not just relaying pointless information.

[Anonymous No.16138915]

New to this board. Does /lit/ look down on light novels or is it alright to talk about them here?

I recently finished my second light novel

[Anonymous No.16138953]

>>16138739
The serpent coiled around the limbs of it's victims, and swooped down to bite the thigh of the central figure. A cry of agony was plastered over it's face while the two smaller figures frantically attempted to restrain the beast.

This is the best I could do. It took a while for me to get this down because I have autism so my thoughts were jumbled at first.

[Anonymous No.16139006]

>>16138739
She sat with her legs tightly crossed, her whole body twisted towards the corner of the carriage. The corpulent man sitting opposite was either oblivious to her digust or indifferent to it, and she had not the courage to cede any further hint of her displeasure. Instead she closed her eyes, straining to ignore the faint smell of peanuts that wicked at her face each time the brute coughed, the creak of the overburdened cushions each time he shifted his weight.

She strove to conjure an image of masculinity with which to dispel the bloat, the ruddy nose, the thick moustache; her mind drifted to the statue she had seen at the Vatican the previous Summer. Laocoon and his sons- oh, there was masculinity in a mass of solid marble. The merits of the work had been espoused by Pliny through to Goethe, the tour guide had explained, a bespectacled young man who squinted at the crowd through thick lenses. An ineffable agony graced the curves of the statue's silverveined pallor. But, she thought to herself, the shrinking young man breaking down poor Laocoon into contexts, cultures and critical analyses has missed something far deeper, far baser in the trace of the many-muscled limbs; and neither Pliny nor Goethe nor any Pope that was or will be had seen the statue with a woman's eyes.

She remembered the passion that had stirred within her, the brutal dark heat that had slickened her hidden tongue and pooled within her breast; her legs drew tighter in the carriage. Yet at that moment the train drew a little too sharply round a bend; a waft of peanut tainted the pleasure of her reverie, and once more she was opposite the repulsive man, moustache bristling hideously as he stole little glances at her thighs.

[Anonymous No.16139025]

>>16139006
Pretty good. Especially for the time it took.

[Anonymous No.16139030]

>>16138915
>telling people you're new
>asking for approval
>not unilaterally asserting your will on the board with absolutely no foreknowledge of its customs and culture whatsoever
lurk another ten years

[Anonymous No.16139034]

>>16139030
Based.

[Anonymous No.16139036]

>>16139025
I just came across the thread and wrote it in 5 minutes. If I'd had 40 it would be thrice as good at least.

[Anonymous No.16139047]

>>16139006
wtf is this literary mogging?

[Anonymous No.16139053]

>>16139036
Yeah, I know, it's only been posted recently. What sort of stuff do you actually write about?

[Anonymous No.16139059]

>>16138117
Yes, I am the storycraft vs wordcraft guy. I’d really like to see some more discussions on wordcraft (or prose style or whatever). My theory is that good/poetic prose works by establishing patterns, because human beings are naturally predisposed to recognizing and harnessing patterns in nature (seasons for planting, stars for navigation). Hence why you have a tendency to “automatically” memorize the chorus to a catchy song after a few listens but it takes intensive study to memorize a paragraph of descriptive text. There are tons of patterns you can establish in written text (alliteration, assonance, rhyme etc etc) but it’s also important not to compromise the clarity of the image for the sake of alliteration or something. This type of thinking should be secondary to the actual story of course, it doesn’t matter how enchanting your prose is if you have nothing interesting to say, otherwise you may as well just write poetry.

As for getting in the “trance” my specific method is to first engage in light exercise: I prefer a casual game of badminton, but swimming in cold water is also very stimulating. It is important that the exercise be conducted outside to receive the calming effects of direct sunlight. I do that until I get hungry, and then I gorge myself on a high-protein, low-carb meal (typically 2+ lbs steak with green beans). I avoid sugar as it makes me drowsy. After I have eaten, I masturbate. Then it is time to smoke weed. After that I settle into my writing location (my bed) with a gallon of black tea and my vape pen. Needless to say, I am dressed for comfort at this point (boxers and my silk robe). Upon reviewing this paragraph, I understand that it probably comes across as a joke, but this is legit my process. I am not always able to follow this routine, obviously, but it is how I prefer to do things and I feel my best work results from this process.

[Anonymous No.16139066]

>>16139053
I have had a couple of short stories published in good magazines and I'm working on my first novel, all literary fiction. I've always enjoyed writing but my ability has improved drastically within the past year.

[Anonymous No.16139080]

>>16138794
I see your point about writing descriptions out of context as a drill, but I think >>16138633's issue isn't that he inserts useless infodumps, but that his descriptions are lacking in "style", they're flat.

>>16138915
/lit/ looks down on any author that hasn't been dead for more than a century. As far as I know light novels are essentially the Japanese equivalent of YA fiction.

>>16138953
Exactly what I suspected, your description is purely objective. Just saying
>A cry of agony was plastered over it's face
Is too generic. It doesn't convey the terror of you and your children being attacked by a snake. Look up articles on "showing vs telling". Immersion is dictated by emotion.

[Anonymous No.16139117]

>>16139080
>Exactly what I suspected, your description is purely objective. Just saying
>>A cry of agony was plastered over it's face
>Is too generic. It doesn't convey the terror of you and your children being attacked by a snake. Look up articles on "showing vs telling". Immersion is dictated by emotion.
Alright thanks man. Ill try my best

[Anonymous No.16139153]

>>16139059
I thought so. And your process is somehow reflected in your writing style. Mine is the complete opposite: restriction instead of indulgence. I fast and take only 1 large meal a day; all writing is done before the meal. I never allow myself any kind of intoxicant or stimulant (especially caffeine). I try to write in darkness, sometimes even wearing a blindfold to simulate the effect, and can only write while lying down. I often fall asleep because of this and will suddenly wake up from a nap bursting with fresh ideas--some of which will inevitably seem silly in the wake of consciousness, but some which will miraculously solve all my problems.

[Anonymous No.16139154]

>>16138739
"Gods! Remove cock from ass!" Laocoon cried out in agony as the serpent struck. In vain he struggled with the beast. His mighty limbs contorted, slowly seizing as the powerful venom began to work its way through his veins. Then the air was rent once again by the cries of his sons: gallant Antiphantes, and noble Thymbraues. The venom now locking Laocoon's gaze to the heavens, he began to cry, knowing that never again would he look upon the faces of his fair boys.

[Anonymous No.16139200]

>>16139066
anything you did in particular to improve so quick or was it just an accumulation of stuff you've been doing a long time?

[Anonymous No.16139275]

>>16139200
I started trying to write a short story every ~2 weeks. I also took reading a lot more seriously and consciously began to sacrifice time spent gaming, watching TV etc in order to read. I read good prose- Joyce was a big influence- and tried to focus on what those people were doing well. I also diversified my reading and spent time each day reading poetry and critical essays.

The first short story I wrote was unbelievably shit. I got cocky having finished something for the first time and sent it to a beta reader, it came back torn to shreds. Just to prove I'm not LARPing this is the feedback I got from my latest beta critique; I'm hoping it will be my next published piece, and I'm using it as my application for a prestigious creative writing MA here in the UK.

[Anonymous No.16139331]

>>16139275
anon....

[Anonymous No.16139343]

>>16139275
I don't know why but it somehow feels like pic related was written by a woman

[Anonymous No.16139373]

>>16139331
What anon?

[Anonymous No.16139405]

>>16139275
Thanks for the advice. I guess I'm not taking writing as seriously as I should.

[Anonymous No.16139441]

>>16139006
Gonna be a yikes from me dawg. Although it is entertaining to watch someone fail with such utter conviction in their own skill, this still scores an F for effort.
>Using a framing device instead of operating within the confines of the prompt
What’s the matter? Couldn’t meet the topic head on? That’s no problem, everyone likes gossiping about weirdos on the train!
>setting the story on a train
Everyone says the Victorian classics are timeless, so if I just emulate their style and settings, my own writing will be timeless as well...
>cheap stereotypes
Ah yes, the overbearing creep. Lots of fresh ground there.
>figurative language
Lots of cliches here, but I’d like to focus on how you tried to avoid repetition by stating that the woman was trying to distract herself from the individual traits of the man as opposed to the man himself. Actually, this is more repetitive than just thinking up another synonym for “unpleasant man” since all these words add up to an unpleasant man.
>flashback
Alright, we’ve finally gotten to the topic at hand! But not for long, because as the famous quote goes, “Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, large minds discuss ideas” looks like you prefer people anon.
>description of the statue
This young lady believes she sees the statue in a much deeper way than the tour guide. How much deeper is anyone’s guess. Something tells me the author himself isn’t quite sure.
>with a woman’s eyes
Were you trying to be profound? This attempt at insight fails on every level. First of all, the statement you’re making would be blindingly obvious (men and women look at things differently) if it weren’t also incorrect (I’m sure gay men get aroused by statues just like this young lady)
>the ending
It’s over now. Nothing left to say. The end is here and it’s a lot like the beginning.

[Anonymous No.16139474]

>>16139441
Jelly

[Anonymous No.16139490]

>>16139441
Bro I wrote that in 5 mins lmao calm down. Did it really affect you that much?

[Anonymous No.16139510]

>>16139441
t. crab

[Anonymous No.16139532]

>>16139441
Guess how I know you're an overweight peanut-eater with a moustache? It might not have been perfect but that post was kino and I really enjoyed reading it. Let's see you describe the image and we can see which reads better.

[Anonymous No.16139539]

>>16139490
Don't worry anon, you're grapes and he's a little foxy round the gills.

[Anonymous No.16139546]

>>16139441
>>16139474
>>16139490
>>16139510
>>16139532
guys, stop. we're all frens here

[Anonymous No.16139560]

>>16139441
Bitterness of this post aside, the only thing that tells me you aren't a faggot is that you think faggots look at men the same way women do.

[Anonymous No.16139570]

>>16139441
>Couldn’t meet the topic head on?
Why would anyone? The stuff is stupid without a framing device.

Also what's so victorian about trains, people use them all the time in civilized countries. Rest of your complains are mostly fair but miss the point that it was done in a very short period of time.

Care to offer a better written example?

[Anonymous No.16139577]

>>16139490
Don't listen to him anon, I liked it and it looks like others did too. I would read a book like that.

[Anonymous No.16139593]

>>16139441
Seethe: the post

Consider that this anon went to THIS LENGTH, spouting bullshit that is mostly wrong, over a reaction scribble that some anons said they liked (myself included). This is the single most potent example of jealousy and cope I have ever seen on this board

[Anonymous No.16139600]

>>16139441
>immediate response to something that garnered positive reception is to viciously tear it down
I didnt find what anon wrote amazing either, but you seem to think very much like a woman.

[Anonymous No.16139616]

>>16139441
Embarrassing

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.16139637]

This might be a bit off topic but I assume you lads are wellread, this is my current favorite authors. (Dunsany, huysman, Balzac, liggoti, William Blake, Blackwood, Borges, Dante and kafka) who else should I read? What books and authors would fit in with this grouping that I should I read?

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.16139648]

>>16139637

Forgot image

[Anonymous No.16139655]

>the latter half of this thread
Thanks guys I needed a real mood-lifter

[Anonymous No.16139658]

>>16139637
Put it in a QTDDTOT thread and stop using a trip. Did your parents not pay enough attention to you as a child?

[Anonymous No.16139665]

>>16139006
Utter kino. Ignore the haters

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.16139686]

>>16139658

I actually use a trip so I can save when people critique anything I post or save recommendations, apologies simply seeking some recommendations. >>16139665

Thanks what do you recommend?

[Anonymous No.16139697]

>>16139686
Just pick from the western Canon. Flaubert, Proust, Joyce are all good bets.

[Anonymous No.16139716]

>>16139441
This is like holding a fun doodle in a notebook to the standards of the Louvre. You're insufferable, fuck off

[Anonymous No.16139718]

>>16139637
>but I assume you lads are wellread
The modern young writer consumes nothing but isekai LNs and video games.

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.16139731]

>>16139697

I’ve already read Flaubert, Proust (not all of it) and Joyce and I really liked them! Thanks anyways for the recommendations.

[Anonymous No.16139806]

>>16139490
This might shock you, but it didn’t take me very long to tear it down either. Yes, it affected me quite a bit, but no, as others have suggested, I’m not sitting here seething in anger that I am unable to write as well as you do. I’m going to guess that all those anons calling me jealous are in fact just jealous of my awesome critiquing skills. Attention doesn’t mean as much to me as it apparently does to you (how many times are you going to post that positive critique email? This must be third time I’ve seen it).

[Anonymous No.16139820]

>>16139806
Hey man, the dude's proud of his writing. No need to get mad at him. We're all here to improve. You don't need to engage in dick measuring. It's counter productive and petty.

[Anonymous No.16139822]

>Gonna be a yikes from me dawg. Although it is entertaining to watch someone fail with such utter conviction in their own skill, this still scores an F for effort.

[Anonymous No.16139834]

>I’m going to guess that all those anons calling me jealous are in fact just jealous of my awesome critiquing skills. Attention doesn’t mean as much to me as it apparently does to you (how many times are you going to post that positive critique email? This must be third time I’ve seen it).

[Anonymous No.16139838]

Seething anon really killed the thread, didn't he.

[Anonymous No.16139839]

>>16139820
>No need to get mad at him.
Not mad, amused. But fine, the fags carry the vote. I’ll leave the thread for the rest of the day.

[Anonymous No.16139849]

>This might shock you, but it didn’t take me very long to tear it down either.

[Anonymous No.16139858]

>>16139822
>>16139834
>>16139849
really dude?

[Anonymous No.16139862]

>>16139839
To think democracy is still alive.

[Anonymous No.16139877]

>really dude?

[Anonymous No.16139890]

truly this is the end of /wg/

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.16139894]

>>16138739

You are he who did formulate male and female, you are he who did produce the seed and the fruit, you are he, the ancient one of the night of time, you are he, who’s sons number the stars, you are he, of great power, who’s mind is unspeakable, the great God who’s true image is this my very heart, you are he, the heart-girth-with-a-serpent is your name. Come therefore and show yourself, give your breath to this image in stone, give your breath to this icon of your image, I seek to speak to you, I speak your true name handed down to the prophets, transmitted to the holy ones. I speak your name in Greek Zeus, I speak your name in Roman, Jove, I speak your name in Hebrew YHVH, El Tetra, I speak your name in Syrian, Baal hadad, come therefore thunderer, come forth you who’s face in the purple palace is a serpent. Come you who dwells in his house within the Bear, come for I have spoken your names, come for I am the true worshipper of the highest, come for my name is Sauh, come for my name is Atma, come for my name is Yechidah.

[Anonymous No.16139966]

>>16139894
terrible.
stop tripfagging egomaniac faggot. you can't write for shit

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.16139976]

>>16139966

Eh, it’s fun! And the thing I have most experience writing is religious invocations so put on the spot I’ll just copy the style ya know. No way to get better but to try!

[Anonymous No.16140113]

>>16138117
>I think what writer's need most is a "safe space", both physical and ritual, wherein they are free to dream.
How the fuck do you get one of those

[Anonymous No.16140140]

>>16139006
>slickened her hidden tongue
Nice.

[Anonymous No.16140200]

>>16133215
bumping this again

[Anonymous No.16140253]

>>16133215
Wouldn't the most simple way be to draw shit and post in on sites like deviantart and whatever that chinksite is, plus shilling for it on any sites that accept art, even if it's fucking 9gag? Then once you have an audience, patreon the fuck up.

As someone who isn't into comics, it seems the traditional market is too tightly controlled by very few publishers who just do the same shit.

[Anonymous No.16140400]

>>16140253
I just want to write the comics, I think it is a distinct medium to write in.

[Anonymous No.16140620]

>>16140400
Sounds harder to get in given how only the bigger ones use writers and these are already established. Comic stories tend to be so simple, an artist usually does the main work. Then at some point they have so much going on, they hire assistants.

Unless you're lucky enough to find some artist buddy who would prefer to follow your lead with the story … it just doesn't look too realistic, in addition to how unrealistic any ambitions of making it in arts/writing is.

Maybe look into visual novels and the likes, which don't require you to draw as much.

[Anonymous No.16140634]

I'm currently writing a visual novel, though I don't expect to succeed with it

[Anonymous No.16140730]

/crit/ is dead so I thought I'd post here.
I'n a hobbyist novelist with decent skills but still improving - I'd appreciate feedback on a short story idea.
Rundown: in the future, humans can create wormholes to other universes. Useless for travel and meeting other races since the location is entirely random, but one thing of note is the first universe - the trash dimension. An entirely empty universe filled with unbelievable amounts of trash from an uncountable number of other universes. Trash scavenger ships roam the endless junkyard and procure noteworthy items before their wormhole expires. One day, our crew detects light and discovers a monolithic monument of some sort with a faint blue glow. They take it onto their ship. It then causes nightmares and other eldritch-esque occurrences until... I haven't decided what. Also haven't decided the themes yet.
Some starting lines I was thinking of were:
"It was quiet, the day they found light."
"Bob Joe, having been indeterminately and unquestionably convinced there was nothing of value in the trash void, was reluctant to admit that they had, in fact, happened upon something to destroy worlds."

[Anonymous No.16140756]

>>16140730
It just sounds like you're trying to be modern Lovecraft. It doesn't sound like you've decided much other than "scary eldritch things happen" so it's hard to comment. The whole wormhole to trash dimension scenario seems a bit clunky and awkward but people have made worse scenarios work.

[Anonymous No.16140842]

>>16140756
Perhaps I am being a little too copycattish of Lovecraft (a different idea I had was that it could be a pleasurable device for a foreign species who enjoy being scared and frightened, there are a multitude of directions I can go in), but I don't see how the trash dimension idea is clunky.

[Anonymous No.16140971]

>think of some random hypothetical
>think of it's real life impacts and ramifications
>construct an extremely hamfisted and ridiculous sci-fi/fantasy scenario that would allow the hypothetical to exist
>write novel about said sci-fi/fantasy world
>turn that novel into a trilogy
where am I wrong

[Anonymous No.16141071]

>>16138117
Good post. I'm assuming Murakami talks about that in his running book? I'm kind of against the idea of setting a schedule for myself personally because then I feel like writing will become less enjoyable and more of a chore, but at the same time I realise that is realistically the best way to actually ensure you are writing stuff.

[Anonymous No.16141275]

>>16139637
With that list I'd recommend you check out the various authors of the Lovecraft Circle, and the Inklings.

[Anonymous No.16141319]

how the FUCK do I write characters that aren't just a facet of myself?
Like, most characters tend to be reclusive loners because I write what I know, but if I need a confident character, I write how I am when I'm confident, and so on.
But how do I step out of this? I am a varied person, but eventually I will need to branch out.

[Anonymous No.16141347]

>>16141319
Observe people and try to understand how people different than you work. Stop understanding your characters as "what I am like when X" and learn to view them in the third person. You are not substantially different from other human beings from how you function, so if you remove needless conditionals, "how you are when you're confident" is likely not meaningfully different from "how a confident person is." For the meaningful differences between human personality, again just learn to watch and analyze people, and stretch your imagination by creating "people" without thinking of them as tethered to yourself.

[Anonymous No.16141891]

I have a curious problem(?) with the motivations of many of my characters. I know the things they want and their reasons, the tricky part is that it's a sort of multiple choice thing. For example, I could tell you what they would most likely do in a specific situation and why but if you asked me in a more general sense, I could only speculate about their main motivations.

It's not an issue for the plot since they follow clear goals but it seems problematic when they present multiple motivations why they do so and leave it up to the reader to speculate.

Did I accidentally wrote too complex characters for YA or is it a result for now knowing them well enough after years?

[Anonymous No.16142508]

>>16141891
I'm not sure I see the problem (?)

[Anonymous No.16142544]

>>16142508
He just sounds like humblebragging about how complex his characters are, as if that's ever a bad thing.

[Anonymous No.16142721]

>>16141347
What the fuck are you even talking about? I can already tell from your post you're a shit writer; even the simplest of ideas comes out garbled.

[Anonymous No.16142722]

>>16129867
Maybe change the series title to just "the lands beyond" (omit 'here', it sounds clunky)
Change the third book title to "seas of green"

[Anonymous No.16142734]

The title of my book that I thought is already taken

What do?

[Anonymous No.16142743]

>>16142734
Pick another

[Anonymous No.16142756]

>>16142734
Is your book already finished?

[Anonymous No.16142798]

>>16128938
It's probably because the people frequently this thread tend to be younger writers. Young writers seem to have the tendency to ask for advice, and alway the same advice is generally given by people online, and that's what you see repeated here. I had this phase too. Eventually they'll realize that it's every man for himself. No one can help them learn how to write. They will struggle and cry and rip and tear, until they realize that they were chasing butterflies all along. Then maybe they'll learn how to learn to write.

[Anonymous No.16142806]

>>16142722
He already got the same suggestions the last time he asked the same thing but apparently chose to ignore them

[Anonymous No.16142818]

>>16142743
How?

>>16142756
No, I am still editing the content

[Anonymous No.16142822]

>>16142818
>How?
I dunno, it's your story. You should know what fits.

[Anonymous No.16142849]

>>16142721
I don't see what was difficult to understand.

[Anonymous No.16142873]

>>16142849
yeah, exactly.
that's the problem.

[Anonymous No.16142887]

>>16142873
I'm sorry.

[Anonymous No.16142916]

Well, these threads were nice while they lasted. Funny how one raging autist can decide to ruin things.

[Anonymous No.16143116]

>>16141347
>For the meaningful differences between human personality, again just learn to watch and analyze people,
I know it sounds an unironically autistic question, but -- "how" do you analyze people?
That is, what is the best way to pick up these differences in behavior?

To make an analogy with art, it's like saying to a newbie artist, "if you want to learn perspective, draw buildings", or if "if you want to learn shading, study Caravaggio". You should teach them at least the fundamentals, so that they don't have to waste time by rediscovering the wheel.
Of course, the analogy isn't perfect, and you could very well say "if you can't understand people you're autistic".

>>16142798
>in order to learn how to write you have to learn how to write

[Anonymous No.16143221]

>>16143116
>>in order to learn how to write you have to learn how to write
I think the point here is that nobody on a forum can teach you to write, especially with the kind of generic advice you get from 'writers' and not posting your work. You just have to do it and see for yourself what works and what doesn't.

[Anonymous No.16143237]

>>16143116
That's an understandable question. I think there are a lot of ways you could go about it, there's no way I could give you all of them. The standard advice would be to people-watch. Try going to public places (or find examples of humans interacting online if you don't want to go outside) and observe what people say and do. Try to find patterns in how they act or imagine why they might be acting the way they do.

You could also using typical character archetypes to make your characters and fleshing out the details from there. This way might be looked down on as less authentic by some, but unless you're writing a complex character study, it might be a more accessible way to help you get into the habit of writing more varied characters.

Either way, the most important thing is just to write and practice. As you gain experience, writing varied characters will likely become more natural for you. and it will get easier to see what might be lacking in your characterization. Good luck anon.

[Anonymous No.16143250]

>>16143237
>You could also try using

[Anonymous No.16143532]

Are there any resources where I can learn everything needed for a self-sustaining community? Preferable general enough that I could apply to different levels of technology.

Like, say I wanted to write a story set in a small-ish city in the Old West, eventually over enough time the details of the city would realistically surface, so I need to know ahead of time generally what they are if I include them later.
So, hypothetically say I was going to make individual character sheets of everyone in a town, and it could also be like a medieval fantasy town too or something, and I need to know every municipal function, the roles that serve them, and generally how those roles operate.

[Anonymous No.16143851]

>>16131351
Journalism, sure. If you're dedicated you WILL be making money writing but you're on /r9k/.

[Anonymous No.16144491]

why can't I allow myself to write cheap smut for bigbux
imagine how much money this author makes

But every story I start to write, I get too emotionally involved in the writing process and turn into a perfectionist that thinks I gotta start with my magnum opus.

[Anonymous No.16144525]

>>16143532
>everything needed for a self-sustaining community
i just googled this and found plenty of resources?

[Anonymous No.16144535]

>>16144491
>But every story I start to write, I get too emotionally involved in the writing process
I feel you. I've tried to do speed-writing with groups, where you write X words in a certain time period, and I end up quitting because I like the story and want to do it properly. I've tried writing stock fiction stories that are just cliche templates, but then I get an actual good idea partway through and the whole thing changes into something I care about.
I don't know the solution. We're probably more hopeless artists than we are businessmen.

[Anonymous No.16144543]

>>16144491
you're not unsuccessful because of not selling out, you're unsuccessful because your writing isn't good enough.
Enough humblebragging

[Anonymous No.16144549]

>>16144543
No, I agree, my writing is shit.
But I cannot exercise my skill to improve because I only want to write to the best of my perception.

[Anonymous No.16144572]

>>16144549
Don't respond to him, anon. Learn to spot very apparent attempts to argue.

[Anonymous No.16144573]

I got a bit of a weird question.

What kind of advice would you give to fantasy writer in a post-Tolkien world?

[Anonymous No.16144601]

>>16144573
Tolkien is to Fantasy as Mt. Fuji to Japanese block prints.
Sometimes it's huge and obvious, sometimes it's small and in the corner, or sometimes it's not even visible, either due to a conscious omission from the artist, or because you are standing on it.

[Anonymous No.16144610]

>>16144573
Stop thinking like that is the best advice I can give.

[Anonymous No.16144848]

>>16144601
oh shut the fuck up

[Anonymous No.16144862]

>>16144572

[Anonymous No.16144864]

>>16144848

[Anonymous No.16145096]

I’m back. To everyone saying that I killed the thread with my banter yesterday, I would argue that these threads were never alive in any sense. Just homos humble bragging about “why can’t I accept anything less than perfection in my own work” or asking questions way outside the scope of writing “how would an isolated community, operating at an 1800’s level of technology, react to a blah blah blah”
It’s time to pack it in. Nothing good has come from these threads, it’s just a less organized version of r/writing.

[Anonymous No.16145224]

>>16145096
>Just homos humble bragging
Again, not bragging.
Can you read? Are you lost?

[Anonymous No.16145227]

>>16145096
kek yeah, that guy was a faggot.
They're also talking about me though, and to be fair I have been actively sabotaging this thread ever since yesterday lmao

[Anonymous No.16145248]

>>16145224
noooooo why cant i just sell out! i write too perfectly! that's why i cant publish a single story! im too PERFECT

[Anonymous No.16145256]

>>16145248
>sell out!
again, not my problem
you are looking at the letters but you aren't seeing the meaning

[Anonymous No.16145265]

>>16145256
au contraire.
I am seeing past your bullshit frame to what you are actually saying

[Anonymous No.16145269]

>>16145256
He literally just said he is intentionally trolling. Stop responding, anon.

[Anonymous No.16145279]

>>16145265
literally a strawman argument
>>16145269
I'm sorry, it's just so refreshing when I interact with non-/pol/ tier trolls.

[Anonymous No.16145283]

>>16145269
I'm not anon

[Anonymous No.16145295]

>>16145096
What's wrong with doing the research to make sure you fictional fantasy setting has realistic dynamics of society?

[Anonymous No.16145313]

>STRAWMAN

[Anonymous No.16145324]

>>16128875
I don't see the /crit/ thread, can I post my sonnet here?

[Anonymous No.16145352]

>>16145324
Yes.
This really should be a writing and critique thread anyway. There is only so many times you can regurgitate the same 'Just write anything' advice.

[Anonymous No.16145359]

>>16145352
Thank you anon

If that apparent part of life's delight
Our tingled flesh-sense circumscribes were seen
By aught save reflex and co-carnal sight,
Joy, flesh and life might prove but a gross screen.
Haply Truth's body is no eyable being,
Appearance even as appearance lies,
Haply our close, dark, vague, warm sense of seeing
Is the choked vision of blindfolded eyes.
Wherefrom what comes to thought's sense of life? Nought.
All is either the irrational world we see
Or some aught-else whose being-unknown doth rot
Its use for our thought's use. Whence taketh me
A qualm-like ache of life, a body-deep
Soul-hate of what we seek and what we weep

[Anonymous No.16145365]

>>16145295
Nothing wrong with it at all. There’s nothing wrong with practicing the trumpet either, but if you do it in the middle of a crowded park don’t be surprised when people tell you to shut up.

[Anonymous No.16145403]

>>16145365
Are you implying that a writing general on 4chan is the equivalent of a crowded park?

[Anonymous No.16145417]

>>16145403
It's more like a crowded public bathroom; everyone's got their cock out and it stinks like shit in here.

[Anonymous No.16145562]

>>16145365
>>16145417
Damn these are Big Brain analogies, though it could do with a comparison of McDonald's to a steak dinner thrown in there somewhere.

[Anonymous No.16145853]

>>16142544
After reading writing advice and seeing popular works, it does seem like something that could be a problem. Readers appear to want complex in the sense of “oh, actually his motivation was X instead of Y” not a clusterfuck of XYZ. Just like no one actually wants complex plots but just variations of same painting by numbers.

[Anonymous No.16145880]

>>16145562
my wife chino is so cute

[Anonymous No.16145882]

>>16143116
Read books or even pop science articles about basic psychology.

[Anonymous No.16145883]

>>16145562
>anime girl av
dilate

[Anonymous No.16145914]

>>16144573
Figure out whether you have something to add.

[Anonymous No.16145930]

>>16145096
So why do you keep shitting them up? If no one finds any value in them, they will die by themselves.

[Anonymous No.16145957]

>>16145883
>hates anime, uses semicolons on 4chan, and makes shitty analogies
Yep, I'm thinking he's pseud.

[Anonymous No.16145996]

>>16145957
>doesn't know what a conceit is
>anti-grammar
>muh 4chan culture
you're the retard in this scenario

[Anonymous No.16146006]

>>16145957
i hate semicolons so much

[Anonymous No.16146017]

NOOOOOO NOT THE SEMICOLONINI

NOT THE HECKIN PUNCTUATIONI!!!!!

[Anonymous No.16146208]

>>16129113
>>Vidya isn't a valid form of ar-

[Anonymous No.16146575]

>>16128875
Hello I have a question
In Greenbaum's book it is written that subjects are normally absent in imperatives and this is the example that follows:
"Help(Verb) me with the luggage"
Wouldn't the word me be the subject here? Given that the subject concerns itself with the person or thing about whom the subject is made.

[Anonymous No.16146586]

>>16146575
*statement not subject

[Anonymous No.16146631]

>>16146575
Pretty sure the subject here is (you).

As in
>You help me with the luggage

[Anonymous No.16146689]

>>16146631
So the reason its you is because that word controls the verb, me doesn't do that.

[Anonymous No.16147327]

Who is Better?
/wg/ or /wbg/?

[Anonymous No.16147361]

I usually excelled at writing in school, however, whenever I try to write anything remotely creative it just comes across as forced and cheesy to me. What gives?

[Anonymous No.16147383]

>>16147361
Those "writing" in schools you do are just writing essays and paragraphs; do write some actual writing, also maybe you just don't have an actual imagination

[Anonymous No.16147554]

>>16139894
piece of shit, who's gonna read this

[Anonymous No.16147632]

So at the minute I'm working on a secondary antagonist who is a sort of Nixonian figure who is an archaeologist in inter-war Egypt. The story I'm working on is a sort of Indiana Jones style knock-off that's becoming a sort of exploration of identity and belonging during chaotic times.

In the beginning he'll be shown as a good guy who although an outsider has won various awards etc based on his own intelligence and hard work. Has managed to overcome everything stacked against him. He is kind to his people, he treats them well and has financed a lot with his own money.

Throughout the book there is a fall in grace. He's wrong with the dig site and hasn't been turning anything up which is why he's getting the Italian's on board for manpower and financing. Like a fisherman in over-fished waters - All the royal tombs have been found, and people like him are just picking the scraps off the bone.

As things go out of his hands, as control is taken away from him, as the awards and the luster and everything else fades he madly scrambles for it all back and in his desperation kills one of the people breaking the bad news to him(his last financial backer who is due to withdraw everything) Everything else then comes from this one action and the cover-up, like Watergate. He becomes more convinced everyone is out to get him, he becomes more convinced that people like him will never get anywhere and will take any avenue to secure himself a legacy.

Does this sound like too much to invest in a secondary antagonist and will it be achievable in a story which isn't huge?

My primary antagonist is a Northern Irish fella who has been a victim of abuse all his life. His brother died in a childhood accident that everyone blames him for, he was abused at public school, he's essentially a perennial victim who has never been shown an ounce of compassion and has resolved not to be one anymore and has joined up with the Nazis to try and reach some mythical temple shit and get control of the world, the desire being that he can bring some order to life and for once feel like he has power. In the end though he becomes possessed by something he can't control and becomes a tool for forces beyond his understanding.

[Anonymous No.16147687]

>>16147632
Iceberg theory, my nigga. It's good to have the info for yourself but only the stuff that moves the story forward is needed for the reader. It's hard to tell what of it is actually relevant without knowing the exact story.

I find the primary one more interesting although IMO both kinda implode when stuff that leads to the downfall isn't linked closely enough to their flaw, or at least doesn't sound like it is.

[Anonymous No.16147756]

>>16147687
So through the POV of the main character's you wouldn't know any of this but one of my main's has a bracelet macguffin that she can't take off but it works through touch as a conduit to view people's memories, although she can't really control it.

The idea is the temple they're searching for is part of the "primordial waters" from several different mythos around the world and as treasure from the temple the piece allows her to connect with the collective unconsciousness and the repress and the painful memories.

[Anonymous No.16147968]

>>16147756
>to view people's memories, although she can't really control it.
Dang, I had the idea for my first novel but felt it made the things too easy and gave the ability to the antagonist instead.

I like the backstory for the temple but the final goal seems so underwhelming, like using the ability to flight to get to your job faster instead of thinking bigger.

Now since she can't really control it, throwing her into random memories of the antagonists to make the reader piece the backstories together sounds organic, just ideally has to immediacy or mystery angle too, how would the information help the protagonists? Or maybe they think the antagonists knows something and go through his brain only to get useless stuff about his childhood, while time runs against them.

[Anonymous No.16148049]

>>16147968
>memories
do ideas count as memories, or is it solely experiences from sensory input

[Anonymous No.16148062]

10 pages of outlining so far for the first 1/3 of the book

[Anonymous No.16148066]

>>16148049
The line is pretty thin and fluid, I bet one could merge it in.

[Anonymous No.16148072]

>>16147968
So the idea I'm playing with is an against the clock interrogation wherein they're trying to get information on the whereabouts of a missing comrade and they've trapped the possessed antagonist and are trying to get the information out of the possessing entity using her powers but are also getting his at the same time as a consequence.

So it's a scene that makes the antagonist look pitiful and makes the reader actually realize that his actions and his extremism doesn't come from nowhere.

[Anonymous No.16148219]

>>16148072
Mhmm, sounds pretty decent. Especially if there are muh parallels between the missing comrade and the antagonist, like both having abusive lives but going into different directions. Probably tricky not to make it too on the nose though.

[Anonymous No.16148258]

>>16140634
Me too anon. What's yours about

[Anonymous No.16148540]

>>16148258
Schizo lesbians

[Anonymous No.16148689]

>>16148540
Nice. What do they want?

[Anonymous No.16148775]

>>16139006
based and litpilled

[Anonymous No.16148881]

>>16147327
whats /wbg/?

[Anonymous No.16148912]

>>16128938
I actually asked how to get out of my genrefag ways last thread.
I'm genuinely curious how does someone gets into the mindset that allows someone to write non-genre or whatever term it's used for that.

[Anonymous No.16148922]

>>16148912
*curious about how
oopsie

[Anonymous No.16148936]

>>16148912
more introspection, internal drama

[Anonymous No.16148942]

>>16148912
Have something to express beyond wish fulfillment fantasy and cheap thrills and catharsis.

[Anonymous No.16148990]

>>16139066
What are good lit fiction magazines?

[Anonymous No.16149061]

>>16148912
I'm more curious how one actually wants to stick to genre conventions. Isn't it too limiting?

[Anonymous No.16149064]

>>16149061
A lot of people aren't very creative

[Anonymous No.16149096]

>>16149061
I'm not sure if it's that limiting but most people that do genre don't seem to be too interested in going beyond their conventions.

[Anonymous No.16149361]

>>16149096
I mean, a lot depends on the exact genre, fantasy/sci/ya have theoretically all the freedoms but most of the works there seem very check-list-y, just going by different checklists.

[Anonymous No.16149524]

Do you anons prefer dirty or slower drafting?

[Anonymous No.16149590]

>>16130351
It'll most times be bad, my dude. Most of writing is editing.

[Anonymous No.16149634]

>>16149524
I generally do it the way I draw. Sketching out the big picture consisting of key details and then adding more and more; so it basically goes from fast to slow.

[Anonymous No.16149710]

>>16149361
Think that before they were writers, they were readers. Generally people tend to obsess over a genre, and they don't go looking for something out of it. It becomes their comfort zone. Literature is genre literature for them, and authors like Proust or Pynchon are pretentious.
Even PKD used to trash on sci-fi because it was filled with people that only have read sci-fi.

[Anonymous No.16149731]

>>16139154
YES. MORE.

[Anonymous No.16149773]

>>16139877
That's tops

[Anonymous No.16149835]

>>16128951
comfy? crawl into a hole and die

[Anonymous No.16149858]

>>16149710
>Generally people tend to obsess over a genre
Guess that's a wider thing I struggle to get. I got a pretty strong preferences when it comes to music but with other art forms the idea to limit oneself mostly to crime novels or horror flicks or strategy games or renaissance art feels just so bizarre.

[Anonymous No.16149863]

>>16131310
lol

[Anonymous No.16149898]

Fucking finally finished shitting out this first draft, oh my god.
How do other anons go about this part of the process? Going forward, I almost want to just dedicate 2 or 3 whole days solely to pumping out the first draft of any given idea I have. Trying to work at it in bits like I did the outline is just torture.

[Anonymous No.16149954]

>>16149898
It fundamentally comes down to just doing it. Rather or not that involves a routine or trying to write from inspiration (see that post above about Murakami). I'm writing serial chapters and it can be struggle trying to maintain discipline and deadlines since I only really have 4 days to work on a chapter, and usually I spend about a few hours at most on the last day in Grammarly and Google Docs to weed out any errors before I finally publish it.

[Anonymous No.16149998]

Do you agree with this comment?

"Editing turns a bad book into an average book. And a good book, into a great book."

[Anonymous No.16150024]

>>16149998
The parts with bad and good books are making it complicated since it can be hard to differentiate between a bad one and a good one hiding inside a bad one before one edits.

[Anonymous No.16150121]

holy fucking this this thread is embarrassing lmao
retarded questions and clueless answers: the general

[Anonymous No.16150438]

>>16149731
Seeing their father Laocoon so stricken, his sons were filled with rage. Screaming, Antiphantes leapt upon the back of the serpent as it encircled Thymbraeus, and climbing along its trunk, made his way to the head of the beast. And as the serpent made to strike, Antiphantes did plunge his slender fingers into one many-lidded eye, and the beast rose up in pain. Bucking like a bull and thrashing, it loosened its grip on Thymbraeus. That youth, that vaunted wrestler. He leapt up, grabbing one sword-like fang with both arms, whilst wrapping both legs about the beast. Tore that fang from its very mouth in a herculean effort.
The serpent writhed in agony. Antiphantes was thrown from its back. Thymbraeus lay spent, clutching the fang in his arms. Antiphantes took it up from him and did slay the wounded beast.
He pulled up his brother and dragged him to their father Laocoon’s petrified feet. He turned to his brother and said, “The gods have cast their lot against us, we must stand together.”
And so did gallant Antiphantes and noble Thymbraeus swear their vengeance against the hosts of Olympus at the foot of their father, so horribly slain.

[Anonymous No.16151016]

>>16148881
It's a Worldbuilding general on /tg/