/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16126092]

A bit back I did a thread on how someone should get the most out of the Qur'an without knowing Arabic or being a scholar
>>16083731

I was asked in that thread about my opinion of The Study Quran, a Shi'ite publication. That question really merits its own thread so here it is.

Many Shia curse revered Sunni figures and seek to propagate a version of history as balanced as Procopius,but Nasr doesn't really have an ax to grind here, the main objection is his sectarian theology (and sectarian in being ultra mystic Shi'ite so perennialist and a bit, for lack of a better word, flaccid on law). His politcs are questionable too even if they don't play a big role here: he condemned Khomeini and supported the Shah because, he alleged, monarchy is trad. However the Shah was a foreign backed puppet so I suspect his real reason is he's a secularist.

The translation is faithful and very readable. It's probably the most elegant English translation except for Arberry's, and Arberry's has no comparison because he is the only one who cares about imitate the rhythm and sound of the Arabic, I'll go into that in a follow up post.

Before moving on, some will invoke Pickthall as the most elegant English translation. I would disagree for a few reasons but most important is he inserts a lot parenthetical writing, which isn't necessarily bad it can greatly aid understanding, but it's obviously inelegant.

Now the next concern is the commentary. The very best thing about this commentary is it often covers the circumstances of when verses are revealed. This is extremely helpful. The worst thing is the doctrinal commentary. Nasr engages in a tremendous amount of "damage control" to the point of being deceptive. For example in the commentary on verse 9:29, a very controversial verse, he cites al-Razi as representative of "much if the mainstream Islamic discourse on this matter" in that People of Book don't have to pay jizya except that the unbelievers among them do and a legal distinction is too difficult--the unanimous opinion of Muslim jurists is that people of the book are unbelievers unless they didn't get the memo. No one takes al-Razi seriously as a theologian, jurist philosopher or mathematician, he is rather remembered only for his brilliant accomplishments in medicine.

Cont

[Anonymous No.16126098]

>>16126092
1:7's commentary is another approach where spams his own commentary and finally gets to the mainstream commentary in the second to the last paragraph but with the short shrift he gives it to get the impression it's just a curio and not the overwhelmingly predominant exegesis. He doesn't bother to quote the Hadith he just mentions it and says some consider it Sahih others Hasan--I don't know who considers it the latter, it's "agreed upon", meaning attested to in different chains as Sahih in multiple of the six primary collections (there are other Hadith sources like Ibn Kathir and Imam Ahmed but the six ones are considered especially reliable though not infallible) which makes it a very tough nut to downgrade to hasan.

As you can see the commentary has some issues but still worthwhile if you are very aware of them. Much more egregious are the essays at the end, which are delightfully informative but often shamelessly heretical in perennialism.

My final evaluation is this is an extremely aesthetic volume. I don't mean in prose so much as intellectually it contains a lot of ideas and philosophy that are interesting and stimulating. I don't think it's targeted toward Muslims or else it would use the word Allah since even English-speaking Muslims who don't speak Arabic say Allah. It's probably intended for those with no familiarity with Islam and that is why it strives to sugarcoat it in some cases so as not to offend. Sunni priority is very Kierkegaardian: religious > ethical > aesthetic. So if anything can be gained or clarified in the first the last will typically be sacrificed. Shia by contrast often stress the importance of lack of clarity as part of the esoteric nature of Islam, requiring a spiritual guide to elaborate what is hidden, consequently they are more tolerant of "dynamic fiqh" (the belief that Sharia changes with time), Khomeini was a big fan, but their belief that the Qur'an was created makes that much less objectionable for them theologically. This rather fluid perspective does make things more accessible for western thought but also I think makes them more vulnerable to going very wrong (permitting sex changes is a huge issue I think). This volume is also very informative and a useful resource so long as, like I said, you know where it's coming from and don't take it as orthodox.

[Anonymous No.16126101]

Arabic and Arberry


The Arabic Qur'an is of course highly aesthetic but part of that is Arabic convention, rhyming for example was just normative for a lot of rhetoric and used as a sort of semicolon. The writing is exquisite and was recognized as such but was not considered poetry, rather exquisite rhetoric. Now comparing Arberry and Nasr to give a couple of example from al-Fatiha, the first Surah. There's a phrase Rabbee al-'aameen: Arabic uses quantitative stress, like Greek and Latin, think of Roman Catholic cantillation used in high mass, rather than qualitative like English, here it's pronounced Rabbeel 'alameeeen (the definite article is typically either turned into a contraction, as with al-Shams letters--contracted as as-Shams--or pronounced as the last syllable of the preceding words, as in what you see here, called al-Qamar). The Study Quran renders this Lord of the worlds. Arberry renders it The Lord of "all Being" (this is actually a fair translation of العلمين which in this context refers to everything). Another phrase is Yowmee al-Deen (pronunciation of the definite article is both attached to the end of the first word and al-Qamar, which renders it silent here; Deen is extended in tajweed to deeeeeeen). This phrase refers to judgement day, The Study Quran translates it as the Day of Judgement. Arberry opts for the Day of Doom, using Doom in its older sense of judgement or reckoning (comes from Old English for fate), and indeed this day was referred to be Christians as Doomsday. Certainly Doom functions more like Deen in rhythm and sound.

[Anonymous No.16126120]

What do you think about the Yusuf Ali translation?

[Anonymous No.16126141]

>>16126120
It's okay and generally honest and quite readable but the commentary is unorthodox and often based on his private interpretation which can try to make Islam less offensive to the west (he supported Great Britain in WWI against the Ottomans). If you're only interested in an introduction to Islam or the Qur'an it's fine

[Anonymous No.16126145]

Nice effortposting, interesting stuff

Wish I had more to say other than appreciation but have a bump at least

[Anonymous No.16126149]

>>16126141
May I also ask what you think of Qutb's tafsir?

[Anonymous No.16126179]

Some resources

If you would like to learn how to pronounce the Arabic you can memorize the alphabet from this in two weeks (the three notations you see for each letter are vowels generally not written but they are in Qur'an)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sTTX7KZ1kv0

Keep in mind the letters look slightly different at the beginning, middle and end of a word (pic related)

If you want to know the proper cantillation a tajweed Qur'an color codes it but quran.com is an even better resource for newbies because Arabic contractions and silent letters etc change based on different rules but spelling doesn't so hearing the pronunciation is helpful. You can hear the whole ayah (verse) and the words seperately and choose a reciter you like

Depending on how interested you get, newmuslimacademy.org offers live, gender segregated classes on Qur'an for free, also instructs on practice and theology.

[Anonymous No.16126203]

>>16126092
religion belongs on /x/
proselytisers belong in a wicker man

[Anonymous No.16126210]

>>16126145
Thanks

>>16126149
I haven't read a lot of it but I like what I have. Eveything he wrote before prison tends to be unorthodox but pretty much everything he wrote in prison is orthodox, he went through a bit of a change from someone who saw Islam as an ideology for modern states to someone who wanted premodern Islam. The state as we know it is an modern invention so Qutb can sound like an anarchist to some but he's just an anti modernist (in prison anyway). I'm sure he makes mistakes but because he wasn't beholden to rulers (considered crucial to classical scholars) he is more reliable in many ways than most prestigious scholars today.

[Anonymous No.16126217]

>>16126203
Actually /x/ doesn't allow threads for mainstream religions, I'm pretty sure they would delete one in the Quran unless it was a conspiracy or magic reading or something

[Anonymous No.16126350]

>>16126145
I concur, bump

[Anonymous No.16126710]

interesting, here's a bump.

[Anonymous No.16127241]

>>16126098
1:7

I just realized I didn't elaborate on this. The Hadith in question explains who this ayah refers to when it says those who have incurred Allah's wrath, and those who are astray. The first are the Jews, the second are Christians. Muslim scholars interpret these to be two extremist tendencies, with Islam the middle way (the straight way can be translated as middle way too). The Jews are ultra legalistic to the point that they actively and deliberately subvert the intent of Allah's commands, they lawyer the letter to completely throw out the spirit. Christians by contrast care very little about the letter of the law and focus on mysticism or love to the point that they love the enemies of Allah and say love matters rather than the law and often make up rules based on that rather than revelation, venerating excessively saints out of love and often letting evil run amok because they're indiscriminately loving. Muslims might seldom get as extreme as either but can still easily go too far one or another direction

[Anonymous No.16129033]

Bump

[Anonymous No.16129066]

>>16126350
>>16126710
>>16129033
stop doing this
nobody here is interested in your pedo rapist death cult

[Anonymous No.16129105]

okay, what's with the hadith(s), i'm reading the Study Quran and it refers in the commentary to specific examples, but where can i read these? are they available in English?

[Anonymous No.16129111]

>>16129066
>stop doing this
>nobody here is interested in your pedo rapist death cult
cry more bitch.

[Anonymous No.16129166]

>>16129105
This is why I like the Hilali-Khan, it generally quotes the Hadiths in full. Which Hadiths were you asking about?

[Anonymous No.16129216]

i just meant generally, are they compiled in a single volume (don't know if this is a stupid question)

[Anonymous No.16129239]

>>16129216
Hadiths? No there are many collections, some which run many volumes, generally they come with the grading of who assembled the collection. The shortest collection I think is al Muwatta but you can find selections from various collections assembled into one volume. Are you looked for Hadiths for narrative, for jurisprudence, what in particular?

[Anonymous No.16129328]

>>16129239
i felt like i was missing part of the picture not reading the sources they came from, but if the quotations are in full it's not important, what do you think of the collected Meadows/Gardens of the Righteous, i found a digital copy while looking around online

[Anonymous No.16129355]

also feel like i should read up on the life and background of Muhammad before going any further... i'm reading it in a suggested chronicle order that seems to generally agree with how each surah is estimated to be dated in the Study Quran and a problem I have is there'll be a vague moral command which in the commentary is said to refer directly to a certain Muslim practice... which for someone like me with zero background on Islam is confused... "wait, so there was already a religion with established practices going on when Muhammad was told this", apologies for rambling

[Anonymous No.16129367]

>>16129328
To get the full sources you need the chains. Generally only very academic Arabic sources list them. Once a student asked Imam Malik to give the chain for a Hadith he quoted. He listed the names, the student look satisfied, then Malik said, Those are my neighbors. You don't even have the background to recognize the thousands of names and know exactly who they are and where they were and their character so why did you ask?

Generally you go by grader who is typically listed

That's a very popular assembly, I gave my mother a copy. It's not for exegesis but it's very good reading

[Anonymous No.16129379]

>>16129355
See the thread linked in the op

[Anonymous No.16130702]

>>16129355
See the thread linked in the op

[Anonymous No.16130775]

>>16127241
So it is just a strawman? We now know that antinomianism and legalism are natural trends in every religion. This exegesis needs reworking

[Anonymous No.16130838]

>>16130775
Legalism is definitely more prominent in Judaism, women wear wigs as hijab and light switches are set to turn on automatically before the Sabbath. Antinomianism is definitely more prominent in Christianity as they barely have any law at all. This exegesis is based on Hadith

[Anonymous No.16130853]

>>16130775
>>16130838
Another Hadith warns btw that when Muslims give up jihad for a peaceful life and use legalism to get around the prohibition on interest, they will be brought low and humiliated until they return to Islam

[Anonymous No.16132416]

bumping

[Anonymous No.16132518]

KYS spiritual semites.

[Anonymous No.16133705]

Great thread, thanks OP

[Anonymous No.16134792]

>>16130838
Muslims are supposed to walk into a bathroom with the left foot first. Just as legalistic as Judaism.

[Anonymous No.16134856]

>>16134792
I don't think you know what legalistic means but it doesn't mean any rule you think is ridiculous. The left/right distinction in Islam is one of adab (manners, etiquette) which is considered normative but also has spiritual significance (just as it does in the Gospel). Left signifies what is worldly, base and unclean (the word sinister comes from Latin for left), right signifies what is spiritual, lofty and clean. You enter the mosque with your right foot and exit with your left, with the bathroom it's the reverse. You say this is legalistic but again by that you just means it's a rule that to you seems arbitrary and pointless, though many Christians would say the same about prohibiting homosexuality

[Anonymous No.16135067]

>>16134856
lotta legalistic cope jargon in that post

[Anonymous No.16135076]

>>16134792
judaism is a heresy but it's still closer to the truth than the gayreek influenced christcuckoldry

[Anonymous No.16135726]

>>16135067

[Anonymous No.16135771]

>>16126092
Toilet paper.

[Anonymous No.16135779]

AAAAARGG ALLAH CONDEM YOU INFIDEL

https://m.fanfiction.net/s/13626022/3/

[Anonymous No.16135884]

>>16126092
Are you Shia or Sunni?

[Anonymous No.16136900]

>>16135884
Sunni

[Anonymous No.16136925]

>>16126092
Don't trust his posts, he's a known schizo larper known as Full Metal Jihad or Parkus.

[Anonymous No.16137230]

>>16136925
have you seen what he looks like

[Anonymous No.16137415]

>>16136925
This poster is someone who pretends to be a black woman (his professed fetish) on discord interested in Thomism. He may already have transitioned

[Anonymous No.16137461]

>>16137415
I should add, he pretended to be a trad Cath black woman interested in converting but was absolutely abysmal at it. When I said you're a tranny and banned him , he began stalking me and complaining.