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/lit/ - Literature

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16057785 No.16057785 [Reply] [Original]

What if we don't have free will, but we are deterministic systems complex enough to think we're free?

>> No.16057799

>>16057785
The free will argument is pointless. The phenomena is all that matters

>> No.16057813

We have free will, it's just meaningless on almost any scale. Jupiter doesn't care. The sun will not be affected one iota by any decision you ever make. Stars will continue to be born, stars will die, galaxies will form and be consumed, lonely molecules with dance through the void forever.

>> No.16057817

>>16057813
You are a midwit nigger who lacks self-awareness

>> No.16057820

>>16057785
We are determinate, but the system is so complex that it’s absurd and so we might as well act as if and believe we have free will.

>> No.16057837

>>16057813
It’s literally the opposite, we are determinate but our actions matter immensely, caring about what non-living celestial bodies do is far less important and complex than what living things, especially humans do, but because we are subject to set physical laws under a perfect God, those actions are determinate.

>> No.16057843

>>16057813
it matters on the very same scale it exists the individual scale or more precisely on the scale of MY life and action. what the fuck do I care about the sun? so long it rises every morning. get the fuck out of here with your cowardly universalism

>> No.16057844

>>16057785
no.

>> No.16057851

>muh scales
>muh complexity
Are you all autistic?

>> No.16057869

It doesn't matter, eitherway; and I don't mean that in some nihilistic manner. I mean that it makes zero difference in the world as it appears.

>> No.16057884

>>16057785
We live in an absolute deterministic universe.
Free will, infinity and randomness are nothing more than illusions.
This will be irrefutable when scientists finally unify quantum mechanics with relativity.

>> No.16057928

>>16057884
>We live in an absolute deterministic universe
the only determined feature of our existence is death, everything until that part is free reign

>> No.16057959

>>16057928
>the only determined feature of our existence is death, everything until that part is free reign

What you call "freedom" is nothing more than your inability to predict every upcoming event.

>> No.16058017

>>16057959
I predict dubs at the end of this post

>> No.16058055

>>16057928
Every thing in nature is bound to the physical laws of our universe. We, being physical beings are also bound to obey those laws. What makes you think that our actions, are that much different from the "actions" of a roaming asteroid? Complexity wise they are very different for sure, but both must follow the logical principle of "action-reaction".

If quantum mechanics are truly probabilistic, then we will never be able to prove it and we will be lost forever. If not, then we are truly bound to a logical universe. Which is nothing more than a simulation in a finite or infinite loop. We might never be able to answer the question of time.

>> No.16058108

>>16058017
Maybe in a parallel universe.

>> No.16059136

Whether our choices are predetermined or not doesn't matter. There is a "functional" predeterminism in everything. What will happen will happen, and that's all it boils down to. It's irreducible.

You might have a choice to make, but you will eventually take an action. If you die before then? Well, that may as well have predetermined too.

The free will / determinism debate is almost stupid in a way. It's just an observation, with really no attached meaning or impact. If life is predetermined, then what? You're not just gonna stop. You have to keep going anyway or kill yourself. And guess what? That would have been predetermined. If we have free will? Great, go do shit like you would if life was predetermined.

>> No.16059206

>>16058017
Would have been iconic

>> No.16059234

What if "deterministic", " complex sytems" and "free will" are made up bullshit in the game.of linguistics and they have no relation to what is actually happening and never will?

>> No.16059261

>>16057785
MAKES
NO
DIFFERENCE

we have this thread every day fuck off

>> No.16059271

>>16057813
Ain't none of that shit matter.

>> No.16059272

>>16057785
i dont have a problem with it

>> No.16059279

>>16057959
No, because when you make a choice, you do so at the expense of every other choice, meaning you are actually changing what is possible, and what is not possible. Even if you had perfect prediction, you would still constantly experience possibilities and impossibilities based on choice.

>> No.16059282

Keep going down the rabbit hole OP
Who is deluded to think he has free will? Maybe your delusions go a little deeper than you realize

>> No.16059283

>>16059234
Perhaps the same could be said of all human language.

>> No.16059292

>>16059283
Well yeah thats the point
the truth cant be told, because its not made of words

>> No.16059293
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16059293

>>16057785
What if determinism is just an illusion our minds conjure after the fact to lower our mental investment in reality for the sake of laziness?

>> No.16059772

>>16057813
Lol who the fuck cares about where pluto will be in in 200 years. Find God and find peace in the rememberance of Him.

>> No.16061281

>>16059279
>Choice

Kek

>> No.16061295 [DELETED] 

>>16057785
dude what if like weed was a superpower

>> No.16061323
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16061323

Relativity of simultaneity means all points of spacetime exist on an equal footing
So you can't change the future any more than you can change the past
Blame Einstein for that one

>> No.16061379

>>16059279
You still cannot refute his argument.

> No, because when you make a choice, you do so at the expense of every other choice
And ironically enough, there’s still only one choice any one could’ve made in given time which is the only outcome possible.

> meaning you are actually changing what is possible, and what is not possible
Again, nothing but an illusion. Your actions are a consequence of your electrochemical nervous system, that has nothing magical about it. We are just simply to ignorant to figure it out. You experience as much free will as a rock. You call It “choice” because you cannot understand it.

> Even if you had perfect prediction
This would be a paradox in and of itself. If you could do this, you would effectively be re-creating the universe.

>> No.16061444

>>16057785
>but we are deterministic systems complex enough to think we're free?
By complex you mean stupid right?

>> No.16061592

>>16057785
Duh.

>> No.16061596
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16061596

>>16057785
Read the part on the Stoics in this

>> No.16061653

If you have a will, it's free by definition. If you believe there is a 'thing' being determined then you accept an irreducible system. Otherwise you are forced into a weird contemporary monism where objects don't exist, and everything is reducible to energy. In which case even talking about deterministic causal relations between entities is meaningless since you don't even accept the existence of objects.

>> No.16061768

>>16059279
>Even if you had perfect prediction, you would still constantly experience possibilities
That’s a fallacy.

>> No.16061825

>>16057813
lol, what a fucking retard, the exact opisite of this. you frame something in an absolutely arbitrary perspective. yah we are small next to planets, but guess what planets are small next to solar system ad infinitum and humans are big compared to cells ad infinitum. moreover “free will is likely a determinist or a compatabulist illusion. if time was rewound 5 minutes with noone knowing better things would play out exactly the same.

>> No.16062006

>>16059772
What is God?

>> No.16062360

>>16059261
>we have this thread every day fuck off
and we'll have it another day, deal with it, oh what are you going to do, will it away? didnt think so faggot

>> No.16062451

>Free will
Free from what? Individuality, circumstance, structure? The phrase is an oxymoron and you're all retarded.
I don't read btw.

>> No.16062467
File: 76 KB, 1079x703, free will.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
16062467

>> No.16062529

>>16061825
>things would play out exactly the same.
They wouldn’t, but carry on. Philosophy has never been scientifically literate why would it stop you now.

>> No.16062542

>>16062529
>They wouldn’t, but carry on.
Nice argument, retard.

>> No.16062590

>>16062542
Physics is not deterministic. If you’re going to contradict modern science it’s on YOU to make the argument. I’m sure it’s much easier to just ignorantly make truth claims though.

>> No.16062614

>>16062590
>Physics is not deterministic
If this were to be true, you would never be able to prove it.

>I’m sure it’s much easier to just ignorantly make truth claims though.
Oh the irony.

>> No.16062715

>>16062614
>you would never be able to prove it.
That is your own unjustified philosophical assertion. You only “feel” as though that’s true. In fact it’s already been proven. No deterministic model can adequately explain correlations between entangled electron spins. Even if QM is completely wrong, whatever model replaced it would be unable to make more accurate predictions. The only type of theories that escape this constraint are borderline conspiratorial shit like superdeterminism which is the philosophical equivalent of solipsism. In any case, the idea of of a deterministic universe is no more provable than a non-deterministic one and as an empirical theory is a non started.

>> No.16062753

>>16062715
>That is your own unjustified philosophical assertion.
Nice coping.

>> No.16062785

>>16062590
>Physics is not deterministic.

Please explain to us how you can claim something that's literally impossible to prove.

>> No.16062838

>>16062715
QM is literal pseudo science

>> No.16062839

>>16062753
>>16062785
Literally just explained one way...now please tell me how you came to the conclusion that it’s impossible to prove. It’s nothing but a made up obstacle with no rational basis.

>> No.16062857

>>16062006
I am God.

>> No.16062947

>>16062839
>Literally just explained one way.
You actually didn't.

>> No.16062948

The only way reality could ever include the concept of impossible is if it were to be completely understood which would also be the point at which nothing was happening or going to happen ever again, the day you get a solid answer is the day you die, until then, maybe you are immortal but you don't remember?

>> No.16062976

The question is, will anyone tell you if you succeeded or not after you die?

>> No.16062990

>>16057785
The physical structure of of a neuron is deterministic at a high level, and non-deterministic at a low level.

>> No.16063005

>>16062976
Thats all anyone wants right? A whopping big you solved it.

>> No.16063027

>>16062839
The principle of logic breaks outside of any deterministic system. Which makes it, by default, impossible to prove.

It's rather ironic to see your futile attempts to use logic to justify the existence of a non-logic reality.

So, it's either one or the other with regards to physics:
1: QM truly is non-deterministic. If this is the case, you would be correct and the door is closed forever. We will never know either way, because you can't prove events that do not follow logical principles.
2: QM is deterministic. Which is not out of the picture yet , but we might never be able to prove it either for a multitude reasons.

Now please, proceed to enlighten me further.

>> No.16063103

>>16061379

>Your actions are a consequence of your electrochemical nervous system,

And this consequence leads to an ineffectual result? A pattering out of ego?

Could a consciousness re-enter the consequential cycle with some effect on the greater overall?

If consciousness is a stomach that's just receptive to activation, could the stomach play a role other than what it's been programmed to do? What if the diet changes and the stomach has to adopt? All the changes are blind chance based on chemical balance within a relevant field of activity? Us being able to recite the events and put it down on scripture is us creating a self-referential loop that proofs the system?

>> No.16063130

>>16063027
>The principle of logic breaks outside of any deterministic system
You keep making the same statement in different ways, always with zero support for it.
>ironic to see your futile attempts to use logic to justify the existence of a non-logic reality
Can’t be any more embarrassing than your continued attempts to prove its impossible, by assuming its impossible. Continue arguing in circles if you want, it won’t convince anyone.

>> No.16063132

>>16063103
>ego
Literally nothing more than a funny word for a specific configuration of matter.

>> No.16063173

>>16063130
Please stop embarrassing yourself.

>> No.16063220

>>16063173
>please believe my assumptions! I have no proof, but I’ll call you names if you don’t! Don’t call me out on my bullshit!
Sure, I’m the one embarrassing myself

>> No.16063241

>>16063220
>"Physics is not deterministic."

LMAO

>> No.16063252

>>16063220
>Imagine projecting this hard because you literally do not understand the definition of the word "Logic "

based contrarian /lit/ard.

>> No.16063269
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16063269

>>16063130
>Let's not use logic to disprove illogic

>> No.16063293

>>16063132

That's completely inconsequential? Much less something that can be autonomous?

>> No.16063364

>>16063293
I do not understand your question. We all bound by the same physical rules.

You even can argue that computer loops are also autonomous.

>> No.16063533

>>16063364

I'll try to make myself better understood.

>Literally nothing more than a funny word for a specific configuration of matter.

This is a bit vague but I took it to mean that ego is inconsequential, not a factor in the Earth's or the Universe's becoming process. Maybe just a unification of perpetual novel sense data "reactivating" ingrained pathways of memories/references that give us a multi-dimensional or "deep" understanding of a structural reality that we're simply "aware" of.

Our "awareness" continues to float within the universe as a consequence of this underlying structural reality. To be sure, we're part of the process. We're not separate. It's just a matter a speaking.

That we can speak of this relationship only relative to a universal boundness of physical rules means that our "awareness" is aware and reacting to its obedience. Here we go back and forth merely out of obedience and a marriage of it with awareness. This is obedience.

I would just say that it presupposes the roles of rules within the process of our becoming. There's nothing to say we cannot influence the rules around us. Everything thus far does seem to be based on relative autonomy. Everything has relativity but only humans can make its own relatives and this "reason" behind this is sheer power. And power is ego.

>> No.16064272

>>16058055
>Every thing in nature is bound to the physical laws of our universe. We, being physical beings are also bound to obey those laws. What makes you think that our actions, are that much different from the "actions" of a roaming asteroid?

Can we stop an asteroid from hitting us? yes

Can an asteroid stop itself from hitting us? no

>> No.16064340

>>16064272
Can we stop an asteroid from hitting us?
I don't know. Can we?

>Can an asteroid stop itself from hitting us?
Jupiter and the Moon disagree.

>> No.16064351

>>16064272
can you stop me from hitting you?
no

>> No.16064401

>>16064351
i want you to hit me harder

>> No.16064590

>>16064272
Humans are more complex than stones. Nothing new there.

>> No.16064969

>>16064590
then why can't we figure out how those walls in south america were built?

stones:1
humans: 0