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/lit/ - Literature

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16054913 No.16054913 [Reply] [Original]

In the holy Quran, Allah challenges humanity and the jinn(spirits or demons)to bring a book or a chapter better than the Quran.

Here are the verses of Quran which mentioned the challenge:

“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful (24) But if you do not do this, and you can never do this, then fear the Fire which has been prepared for the disbelievers and which shall have men and stones for fuel”(Quran 2:23-24)“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.”(Quran 11:13)“Say: ‘If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another.”(Quran 17:88)

What do you say/lit/?

>> No.16054923

The rules are too vague
What exactly constitutes a better chapter than a Quranic one?
Does Muslim thought have an objective ideal of literary beauty

>> No.16054933

One of the dumbest arguments for the Quran.

>> No.16054946

>>16054933
t. kaafir unable to beat the challenge

>> No.16054948

>>16054923
The arabs of Muhammeds time were unable to produce a masterpiece like the Quran. don't know how "better" is defined in the quran

>> No.16054953

Homer.

>> No.16054959

>>16054953
>Homer.
Not even close lol.

>> No.16054969

>>16054923
Have you read that garbage? To Kill A Mockingbird has better chapters.

>> No.16054979

/lit/ can't speak Arabic so they have no idea of the rhythm or intonation rules of Arabian rhetoric.

>> No.16054982

>>16054933
enjoy the eternal hellfire my bro

>> No.16054998

>>16054959
Homer said that the Ancient Greeks knew how to write before they invented the Greek Alphabet. This is correct. The Muhammad says that Classical Arabic had remained unchanged from the garden of Eden until Muhammad's time. This is incorrect, we have written Arabic prior to Muhammad's day.

So, right off the bat, Homer is simply factually correct whereas Muhammad is factually incorrect. This alone points to Homer's divine inspiration. Secondly, Homer is objectively a better writer than Muhammad.

>> No.16055007

>>16054953
/thread

>> No.16055057

>>16054998
Arabic had multiple dialects by his time, he revealed the Qur'an in seven. The Qur'an and hence the Arabic its in always was but there's no basis for saying Adam used the language

>> No.16055059

>>16054913
The Gospel of St. John, Chapter 15
The Epistle of St. James, Chapter 2
even Manasses' Prayer, though not scripture itself, is more beautiful than anything I've read in the Quran, let alone the Holy Bible

>> No.16055076

>>16054913
proselytisers must die

>> No.16055082

>>16054953
basado

>> No.16055095

>>16054953
yeah, this

>> No.16055109

>>16054913
اريد احفر التبليط و ازرع بتيتة ليش اليحب حلوين ينهجم بيته

>> No.16055265

>>16054998
>This is incorrect, we have written Arabic prior to Muhammad's day.
You confuse Old Arabic and Classic Arabic, old Arabic wasn't even written in the same writing system. Just because linguists label both as "Arabic" doesn't mean they are the same.

>> No.16055289
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16055289

>>16055059
This translation comes as close as English can to the style and meter of the Arabic while still being literal

>> No.16055409

>>16055289
Where did you find this translation

>> No.16055422

Literally any book that I own is better than the Quran. Certainly morally and many of them aesthetically

>> No.16055466

>>16055289
6/10 best I can do

>> No.16055505

>>16054946
leave tasty Kefir out of this Ahmed

>> No.16056071

>>16054913
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYhO9ETur-Q

>> No.16056082

>>16054913
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBYoyt7_e8E

>> No.16056354

Debate Jay Dyer.

>> No.16056362

>>16054913
Inshallah

>> No.16056404

>>16055409
It's Arberry's, read his intro

>> No.16056508

Islam's biggest flaws are holding up the Quran and Muhammad as the best literature and human being.

>> No.16056526

>>16054979
>>16054913
"Some Orientalists have alleged that it has been touched up in order to bring the language to the standard of perfection set by the pre-Islamic poets. In that case we must suppose that these purists in their revision have paid no attention to the extremely primitive rhymes of the most recent Suras and above all that they have passed over slight faults of grammar and style which it would have been so easy to rectify. (Qoran 20, 66: inna followed by a nominative; 49, 9, dual subject of a plural verb.) In 2, 106; 4, 40-41, the predicate is singular in the first clause of the sentence, and in the plural in the second although relating to the same grammatical subject. In 27, 61; 35, 25, passim, Allah speaks in the third person; then, without transition, in the first. Thus in 2, 172, the celebrated philologist Al-Mubarrad read al-barr instead of al-birr, in order to avoid this singular construction: ‘piety is he who...’ In spite of all this there is no occasion for surprise in the fact that the Qoran, especially the Medinese Suras with their more polished phrases, less interspersed with ellipses and anacolutha than the pre-Hijran ones, has served as the standard for fixing the rules of national grammar...

>> No.16056536

>>16054979
>/lit/ can't speak Arabic
I can, and I don't see anything special about it. Classical/Standard Arabic (unlike spoken varieties) retains archaic case declension system where virtually almost all adjectives, nouns, and adverbs keep uniform case endings -un, -in, -an unless they are ending a clause/sentence. The stress pattern is mora-timed, which means that stress consistently falls on a penultimate or antepenultimate syllable depending on its weight. Morphologically Arabic nouns/adjectives have pretty consistent composition patterns - for example, a vast number of adjectives are formed by CaCiiC-un pattern where stress falls on the penultimate syllable (e.g. كبير kabiir-un, "great", عزيز 'aziiz-un "dear", نبيل nabiil-un "noble" etc).

You can rhyme basically anything with such prosody properties.

>> No.16056537

>>16056526
The editors of the ‘qirav’a mashhura’, or textus receptus, worked under the domination of a servile scrupulousness for tradition. Otherwise they would not have been able to resist the temptation to improve, by means of equivalents readily furnished by the lexicon, the poor rhymes terminating the verses. They would not have scattered broadcast through the collection, sometimes in the course of the same Sura, groups of verses which have a logical connection. They would have tried to delete or tone down the principal repetitions and tautologies which make its bulk unwieldy. Revision after the author's death would have modified the verses relating to Zainab (Qoran 33, 37), and brought into agreement the differing versions of the same prophetic legend. In the enumeration of the prophets it would have separated and distinguished between those of the Old and those of the New Testament, and such a re-editing would have brought consistency into the story of Abraham's relations with Ishmael and Isaac, which are completely dissimilar as related in the Mekkan or the Medinese Suras. In deciding what order to assign to the Suras a critical revision would at least have adopted some criticism less primitive than that of length. Above all, it would have cut out the most glaring anachronisms: the confusion between the two Marys (19, 22), between Haman, minister of King Ahasuerus, and the minister of Moses' Pharaoh (Qoran 28, 5-7, 38; 40, 38); the fusion into one of the legends of Gideon, Saul, David and Goliath (2, 250, etc.); the story of the Samaritan (sic)who is alleged to have made the Jews worship the golden calf (20, 87, etc.). The Qoranic Vulgate has respected all this, and left everything exactly as the editors found it."

>> No.16056565

>>16054913
So many works of literature, ancient and modern, come to mind, but you will flatly dismiss them and say "gotcha, Islam is real" like the brainwashed midwit you are.

>> No.16056571

>>16054913
God does not speak in vague generalities like “find something better”, whatever “better” is even supposed to mean. God speaks in absolutes. God is absolutely good and just, so everything he says and does by definition must also be good and just and absolute, not vague garbage like the quran.

>> No.16056850

>>16056536
I didn't say anything about rhyme. I know it's easy to rhyme in Arabic, same goes for Italian. The Qur'an is prose, not verse even if broken into verses for parsing

>> No.16056961

>>16056850
What a dishonest little counter-argument.

>> No.16057280

>>16056961
That isn't intended as a counter argument as the fact that the Qur'an rhymes in many of its surahs is not seen by academics as part of its literary merit, that was just an Arabian prose convention, people often rhymed when they gave speeches, and the longest Surahs don't rhyme. That you don't see any merit to the prose is subjective of course, you didn't actually argue why

>> No.16058282

>>16056565
>So many works of literature, ancient and modern, come to mind
GOTCHA

>> No.16058334

>bro just make a verse like quran lmao you can't
>we will judge that btw
Why is /lit/ being overrun by semitic desert demon worshippers?

>> No.16059560

>>16056571
The point is, the linguistic condition of the current era is infinitely inferrior by all metric. And the master poet of olden days cannot come up with anything that pursauded the crowds like the Quran did. So its 100% impossible now, as it was back then when Muhammad was still alive and the kafirs can ask what the metric for "better" is and still failed to do so.

>> No.16060286

>>16054913
It's such a weird paragraph. It's like the writer had never seen stuffs outside of that ancient arabia that was before the time or in that time. there are lots that are better. either if it asked for spiritual or poetic texts.