/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16045972]

Why is the japanese language so primitive?
>dokidoki
>wakuwaku
>mofumofu
>fuwafuwa
>peropero
>girigiri
>barabara
>shirashira
>perapera
>dondon
Look at these examples of onomatopoeic baby words. They are analog to words like "doodoo" or "weewee" in english, which no adult english speaker would use in formal conversation. However in japanese they are proper words and have no formal alternative.
Japanese also relies heavily on context ("reading the kuuki") because the grammatical structures alone are extremely vague and don't grasp meaning in any way that would be acceptable to someone used to speaking and thinking in indoeuropean languages. This is also the reason why japan has never produced any noteworthy philosophers and the highest linguistic achievement japan is known for is calligraphy, the artistic drawing of kanji.
It's no surprise that people who learn japanese beyond what watching anime teaches you take pride in it because they think a lifetime of memorizing the most inefficient alphabet humanity has ever produced is a comparable achievement to understanding philosophy and logic and appreciating the complex prose of world (indoeuropean language) literature.

[Anonymous No.16045989]

Seek help

[Anonymous No.16046017]

A lot of languages within and without Asia do duplication for emphasis, and a lot of languages use different systems to convey context than those used in I'm not sure what you're getting at. Is this just babby's first linguistic relativism?

Also yeah, the three writing systems is very inefficient, but then it also keeps foreigners out so hey, it's not totally worthless.

[Anonymous No.16046033]

>>16045972
This is the literature board.

[Anonymous No.16046045]

>>16045972
Japanese is one of the most logical and consistent languages that exists. I would say that it is the prototype of what a language should be.
There does not exist any statement that you can make in English that you can not make in Japanese.

[Anonymous No.16046048]

>>16045972
Amazing thread. Please delete it so that no one else can steal your brilliant ideas.
>>16046017
Onomatopoeia =/= DOODOO WEEWEE
>Also yeah, the three writing systems is very inefficient, but then it also keeps foreigners out so hey, it's not totally worthless.
It's actually not. If you knew enough Japanese to have ever encountered the alternatives, you'd know that this is the only way to make the language work properly and efficiently.

[Anonymous No.16046056]

>>16045972
Autism

[Anonymous No.16046067]

>>16046048
>japanese is shit!
>no its not, it's just a language like any other
>no its not, its the best language ever!
Look OP, I know you've got cocks packed into every orifice, but you need to make up your mind here.

[Anonymous No.16046070]

>>16046048
I made this thread because I want to hear counter arguments, not butthurt quips, from weebs like you. It doesn't matter to me whether you think you need to steal/disseminate these ideas.

[Anonymous No.16046116]

>>16046070
Explain why dropping the subject is any worse than just replacing it with "it"

[Anonymous No.16046117]

>>16045989
>>16046017
not him but you cynical weeb trash who thinks everything from japan is better can't accept the lack of phonemes in japanese that makes it sound like a polite caveman talking

[Anonymous No.16046127]

>>16046048
>t. anime pro
thanks ken-sama, glad to know your virginity is still intact.

[Anonymous No.16046154]

>>16046067
I am literally not OP, you retarded faggot. Look at the poster count.
>>16046070
Do you not understand the difference between onomatopoeia and DOODOOWEEWEE? The latter is children's language, and the former is a perfectly respectable way to express feelings, actions, and sounds.
Protip: There are generally alternatives to onomatopoeia if you dig deeply enough into the language, but they will either be phrases, extremely archaic words, or Chinese compounds that do not give the same sound or feeling of the onomatopoeia. Compare he following:
空襲後の惨憺たる光景を目前にしてぞっとせずにいられなかった
with
空襲後の惨憺たる光景を目前にして慄然とせずにいられなかった
Do you feel the difference? If not, try putting 慄然と and ぞっとする in a bunch of different sentences in different situations, and you'll see what I mean. If you still don't get it, keep studying and you'll eventually figure it out.

[Anonymous No.16046156]

>>16046117
Who cares?
Japanese has 100 phonemes. That gives, in terms of unique words with 3 or fewer syllables, 1,010,000 unique words, far more than enough to have a word for any concept. English has like 250,000 words, which means you can injectively map every english word into 3 syllable or fewer Japanese words and have hundreds of thousands of possibilities left over.
Phonemes are cope and useless. They do not magically embed the language with superior aesthetics or expressiveness. You should want to have fewer phonemes, as it's more efficient.

[Anonymous No.16046171]

>>16046117
>phoneme count
This is irrelevant, Hawaiian has like seven phonemes and gets along just fine.

>duplication of silly words
Yes, it sounds silly to us, but many English words sound silly to foreigners. The phonemic content of a word is arbitrary, so duplication works just fine.

>context
Asian languages in general do this. Providing context that is unnecessary is a waste of time, energy, and just introduces needless complexity (I wouldn't argue this as a criticism of IE languages, but it's an argument none the less).

>japanese literature and philosophy
Japan has plenty of literature and philosophy, they just don't give a shit about foreigners so it remains untranslated. What does get translated is often specialized and obscure, owing to is Buddhist nature, which means academia just doesn't care about it. On Nothingness is incredibly profound, but Western academia doesn't give a shit because it's outside the purview of petty academic shitflinging.

>three writing systems sucks ass and any benefits each individual one conveys can be conveyed just as well by picking fucking one of them
You are entirely correct.

>weebs are subhuman filth
You are entirely correct.

[Anonymous No.16046179]

>>16045972
>Why is the japanese language so primitive?
Good question. I'd like to hear a theory too.

The worst part is their massive amount of loanwords. I mean, what kind of self-respecting language doesn't have native words for *numbers*?

[Anonymous No.16046183]

Learn french instead. They have a literature beyond creepy comic books and novels written by fags about how change is bad and the difficulty of being really polite all the time.

[Anonymous No.16046187]

>>16046045
How about "I love you?"

[Anonymous No.16046200]

>>16045972
There was actually a study which showed people of all sorts of different native languages were able to correctly guess the meaning of Japanese onomatopoeia very effectively. I don't really see an issue with any of these words.

[Anonymous No.16046202]

Another gigabrainlet take from a monolingual yank.

[Anonymous No.16046212]

>>16046156
As far as I'm aware the language with the most phonemes is !Xóõ, which isn't really known for its philosophical and intellectual depth. Lithuanian has the most phonemes of an IE language (I believe), which, similarly, is known for suicide rather than literature. Ubyx has 74 consonants, but only two vowels, and likewise has few intellectual titans.

[Anonymous No.16046221]

>>16046154
I said doodoo and weewee were analogs. Those are just two examples of english baby words of which you can find countless others, many onomatopoeic. The point is that they are sounds repeated to form a primitive expression like the japanese examples I listed. I have not wasted enough of my time on learning japanese to be able to read your sentences and I never will.
>just learn MORE and you will understand why under certain circumstances certain expressions that no native speaker ever uses might be less primitive alternatives!
No.

[Anonymous No.16046232]

>>16046156

>You should want to have fewer phonemes, as it's more efficient.
When writing with a phoneme alphabet makes it impossible to read because of so many homophones and you have to rely on thousands of different complex characters to tell words apart then your language is the opposite of efficient.

[Anonymous No.16046254]

>>16046212
I also messed up I forgot to add the additional 100, the actual count is 1,010,100 unique japanese words with 3 or fewer syllables (and you can always use more syllables).
As I said in my original post, the particle driven nature of japanese coupled with it's how it does its grammar is the prototype of how a language should be.
>>16046232
The regularity of the grammar and the particles make this not a real problem though.

[Anonymous No.16046259]

>>16046221
>I said doodoo and weewee were analogs
Well, I'm sorry, but you're just wrong about that.
>The point is that they are sounds repeated to form a primitive expression like the japanese examples I listed.
You are, again, quite wrong about that.
>I have not wasted enough of my time on learning japanese to be able to read your sentences and I never will.
You have not learned enough to even begin to have an opinion on the use of onomatopoeia, yet you still insist on parading your ignorance before this entire board. Why? What do you stand to gain from this?
>>just learn MORE and you will understand why under certain circumstances certain expressions that no native speaker ever uses might be less primitive alternatives!
Native speakers use these words all the time. Try reading a book and you'll find out not only how common they are, but the subtle differences between them.

[Anonymous No.16046267]

>>16046202
This

[Anonymous No.16046288]

>>16046254
Yeah, the homophone argument works well with Mandarin, but as far as I'm aware that's not the case in any other language. Even other languages in China aren't as autistic about what sounds you can and cannot make (as there are actually initial and final combinations that are simply unused in Mandarin in ANY tone, and there are also initial/final/tonal combinations that are ALSO unused in Mandarin).

[Anonymous No.16046312]

>>16046259
No, they are entirely analog and obviously primitive expressions that lack any etymology besides onomatopoeia or the sounds an infant is able to produce. I have learned enough japanese to compare its differences to indoeuropean languages, in a linguistic and historical context. What you believe is required to "get" the japanese language is a rationalization of the time you invest for ever diminishing returns in and for this argument unnessecary insights.

[Anonymous No.16046320]

>>16046254
>The regularity of the grammar and the particles make this not a real problem though.
grammar doesn't make learning thousands of characters and dealing with three writing systems any easier. Grammar doesn't make recognizing the meaning of endless homophones in spoken japanese any easier.

[Anonymous No.16046356]

>>16046320
This does not happen to native or fluent speakers

[Anonymous No.16046389]

>>16046320
>>16046356
This. Do you have trouble telling apart cot and caught? Or thot and thought? Or any of the other numerous homophones we use on a daily basis without sparing even a moment to think about them?
Also, really, the language does not work without the three systems. Go ahead and try reading any work of classical literature written entirely in the syllabary or any work of thought written entirely in Chinese characters. That stuff is ridiculously tough.
>>16046312
I gain more pleasure from working with this language each and every day, and I'm quite happy I chose it. I am not rationalizing anything. I'm just trying to help you get out of this intellectual rut you seem caught up in.

[Anonymous No.16046404]

>primitive
>primitive
>primitive
>primitive
>primitive
>primitive
>primitive

[Anonymous No.16046420]

>>16046187
That exists even if the Japanese culture is too autistic to say it

[Anonymous No.16046446]

>>16046389
>attempting le I'm just here to help copout
You want to defend this language you spent much time on learning and understanding it, and this is probably the first chance you ever got to put those skills to practical use, but you are not taking it, instead resorting to mere "learn more" platitudes which will not convince anyone of your viewpoint. If you appreciate the japanese language and are staying in this thread for as long as you have, then put some effort into it.

[Anonymous No.16046463]

Homophones aren't that common in Japanese
http://selftaughtjapanese.com/2014/03/19/research-results-homophones-in-japanese/

[Anonymous No.16046469]

>>16046446
I live in Japan with my Japanese girlfriend and I study Japanese history. I speak, read, and "write" in Japanese every single day.
>but you are not taking it, instead resorting to mere "learn more" platitudes which will not convince anyone of your viewpoint. If you appreciate the japanese language and are staying in this thread for as long as you have, then put some effort into it.
I've already made my arguments. The only thing you have left is ad hominem. What would you like me to do?

[Anonymous No.16046472]

>>16046469
is she kawaiii desuyooo neeeee

[Anonymous No.16046488]

>>16046469
An ad hominem would be attacking your arguments based on your person, which firstly I'm not doing by telling you to put effort into it and secondly is not possible because you haven't made any arguments. You dropped a hot quip and proceeded with replies like "you're wrong" and "learn more", which you should understand are not arguments.

[Anonymous No.16046490]

>>16046389
>cot
>caught
>thot
>thought
Not him, but these are not homophones in my accent.

>>16046463
Are they really in any language except Mandarin and other Chinese languages?

[Anonymous No.16046492]

>>16046356
of course japanese becomes easier for the gaijin who spend years of his life in intensive study to reach fluency. The language still sounds primitive and you'd be better to read dozen of lit books instead of learning such inefficient language.
>>16046389
english homophones are few when compared to japanese and they're generally not homographs.

[Anonymous No.16046515]

>>16046492
>of course japanese becomes easier for the gaijin who spend years of his life
Japanese is so simple it takes like 14 years to master. Take the Cure Dolly pill

[Anonymous No.16046519]

>>16046389
caht
cahwt
thaht
thahwt
that said you're completely right

[Anonymous No.16046525]

>>16046515
months not years lol

[Anonymous No.16046527]

>>16046490
They're homophones in mine. No one has trouble telling them apart.
>>16046492
Japanese homophones are not homographs either. 救う,巣くう, and 掬う are not written the same. Even in speech, it's easy to tell them apart by context.
>>16046488
No, I made a series of arguments and gave you example sentences to read that show why you're wrong. You refused to look at them, and have insisted on repeating psychoanalytic nonsense without responding to my arguments. I can no longer tell whether you're a troll or simply a fool.

[Anonymous No.16046559]

Weird thread. If you don't want to learn Japanese, dont. You literally will never need Japanese in your life unless you plan to move there.
Also not /lit/ related

[Anonymous No.16046564]

>>16046527
I told you that I cannot read those sentences. Is this your idea of a discussion, gatekeeping your "arguments" behind a barrier of linguistic skill (memory) instead of expressing them in your own words by relying on your linguistic reasoning (intelligence)? Are you able to formulate a sentence that expresses the difference between the sentences, and the words it stems from?

[Anonymous No.16046591]

>>16046527
>Japanese homophones are not homographs
all it takes is thousands of non phonetic characters and you're good!
>Even in speech, it's easy to tell them apart by context.
after a few thousand hours of studying. You could've reached b1 level in like four european languages in the meantime.
Also, if you don't keep constantly practicing kanji writing, you'll forget how to write the first stroke of thousands of words.

[Anonymous No.16046601]

>>16046591
Do you want to move to Japan? If not, why do you care about Japanese?

[Anonymous No.16046603]

>>16046288
That is very annoying. At least 兒 adds some more variety, even if they pretend like it's just some disconnected addition at the end of the word, rather than replacing the final like it actually does.

[Anonymous No.16046635]

>>16046564
I have already made my arguments clear, but here's a summary:
1. If you cannot yet understand those sentences, your knowledge of the language is so poor that you can likely not understand the use of onomatopoeia in Japanese.
2. To make my point explicit, onomatopoeia are used in informal speech and literature, while their Chinese and Japanese equivalents are generally reserved for literature that is either more Sinically-inflected or non-fiction material. If you read Mishima, Tanizaki, or Soseki, you will see both used strategically throughout their works to achieve different effects.
3. Once you get a feel for the language, onomatopoeia will literally sound like normal, adult speech, and certain onomatopoeia will sound more formal than normal speech because their use is largely restricted to the page. The same goes for words like 物憂げに, which is purely Japanese yet too elegant to be used in speech without sounding alien.
4. There are no equivalent phenomena in the English language. DOODOOWEEWEE describe neither sounds nor actions, but ぴたぴた describes the sort of light patting that we use to apply makeup, lotion, etc. ハッとする mimicks the sound made when expressing great surprise, while ホッとする mimicks that made when breathing a sigh of relief.
My larger point is that you have to understand these words and their place in the language on their own terms, because comparison with a completely unrelated language like English will yield no intelligent result.

[Anonymous No.16046674]

>>16046601
No. But most weebs won't ever set a foot in japan either. Most will give up before reaching intermediate level and for the few ones who are obsessed enough to continue studying japanese until fluency will only use it for watching anime and reading manga.

[Anonymous No.16046693]

Yeah it’s true that our language(Japanese) is not suitable for philosophy on the same level as Ancient Greek or Sanskrit or German, but English is not suitable either because it offers you no ability to philosophize if not for the 80% of words you have taken from Greek and Latin. In fact Anglos without the knowledge of Latin and Greek don’t know what their jargons actually mean and can’t create new concepts like Greek and Germans because you can not intuitively philosophize in English language. Also Indo-European languages without Inflections are terrible for philosophy because it makes sentences needlessly complex and counter-intuitive. And the crown of those languages are English. That’s why their philosophers except Hume are very mediocre and they need Germans(Kant, Hegel, Wittgenstein and Frege etc) to make new concepts and thoughts for them. This applies to French also, but I will not talk about it here. Anglos’s unhealthy obsession with analytics philosophy can be partly explained by the above mentioned deficiency of their language.


Yeah so FUCK OFF MUTTS.

[Anonymous No.16046694]

Racist thread

[Anonymous No.16046713]

>>16045972
>However in japanese they are proper words and have no formal alternative.
Are you being serious right now?
>dokidoki
>wakuwaku
心悸
鼓動
胸の高鳴り
etc
>mofumofu
>peropero
These are pure onomatopoeia.
>girigiri
Depending on context you can replace it with a myriad of better synonyms. 間際, 限界, 瀬戸際; you know the drill.
>barabara
Same as above. I'm not even going to bother with examples at this point.
>perapera
If you're referring to fluency with this, 流暢 is a common word almost everyone who's not a literal child is going to use.
You're doing the equivalent of criticizing English not even because it's a messy bastardization of its roots, mixed relentlessly with loan words to the point it poetically represents the demographic that speaks it most; but due to all the colloquialisms it bears. Most of the populace have terrible vocabulary and need easily understood, simple words used in their daily lives to express themselves, that's kind of an universal phenomenon; the Japanese language just lends itself better to mimetic words due to its phonetic structure, to the point their use became widespread.
Why would you willingly spread misinformation on an anonymous basketweaving imageboard, and what do you gain from doing this?

[Namefag No.16046721]

>>16046635
W

[Anonymous No.16046722]

>>16046635
Onomatopoeia is universal. You don't need to learn the alphabet of a specific language to understand its use. Its occurence in japanese is special only in the regard I laid out, its use in formal adult speech. That getting used to it makes it sound less infantile than doodoo or weewee does not contradict anything I said, and giving examples for how japanese onomatopoeia "makes more sense" because it actually sounds like the actions it describes further substantiates that adults don't stop using it because of a lack of proper alternatives.

[Anonymous No.16046732]

>>16046693
French is an excellent language for philosophy and really for all things. You're gonna praise the German language for being able to impose hundreds of years of Kantian philosophy, and other pseudo-problems, on the world?

[Anonymous No.16046746]

>>16046693
English can make neologisms just fine. Agglutination like German does is also possible, it's just incredibly awkward and ever since 1984 has connotations of totalitarian dystopia. English's stealing so much from Greek and Latin also has a very distinctive benefit in that it allows for incredibly subtle differences in meaning. Ornithology and birdlore are both superficially the same thing, but have vastly different connotations.

I am, however, a full supporter of any and all attempts at Anglish.

[Namefag No.16046757]

>>16046722
Retard, he basically said that onomatopoeia might be related to juvenile talk in your culture, but not in Japan. That's relativism.

[Anonymous No.16046761]

>>16046713
>the Japanese language just lends itself better to mimetic words due to its phonetic structure
Yes, I also see it as a simple island spearchucker language.

[Anonymous No.16046771]

>>16046732
No french philosopher is comparable to Kant in any respect.

[Anonymous No.16046772]

>>16046746
>Ornithology and birdlore
you could add in some godawful monstrosity like "aviscire" or "avilegery" if you wanted a fully latin way of saying "knowing about birds".

[Anonymous No.16046774]

>>16046732
>French is an excellent language for philosophy

Sure it is better than English due to its humble compactness and its direct Latin roots. But it still has its flaws: the sentence structure is too rigid, poor vocabulary, there are no inflections, has no ability to create new concepts like Greek and Latin etc. it is basically an inferior version of Latin. Yeah but it’s better than English.

[Anonymous No.16046778]

>>16046757
It may only be related to juvenile talk in our cultures, but it is related to infantile expressions universally in humans, because it's those sounds that infants are first able to enunciate.

[Anonymous No.16046783]

>>16046635
>DOODOOWEEWEE describe neither sounds nor actions
Really? I just doodooweewee'd on your post.

[Anonymous No.16046792]

>>16046771
Is that a complement, or an insult?

>>16046772
To aviscirate, avisciration; to study birds.

[Anonymous No.16046795]

>>16046674
So what?
In reality you can memorize all the kanji in like ~10 months if you're not a retard and Japanese as a whole takes a little over a year to become fluent because it is so simply (ironically the exact why the haters are hating on it is what makes the language so good).

[Anonymous No.16046806]

>>16046795
>all the kanji in like ~10 months
Are you sure? I thought native speakers were studying it until college.

[Namefag No.16046810]

>>16046778
So that's what makes it less intelligent? Great logic.

[Anonymous No.16046816]

>>16046795
i dont know about kanji, but i've been studying hanzi for 2 years and i still come stumble ocassionaly. and considering that kanji can have multiple readings i just dont see how it's possible to learn in it in 10 months

[Anonymous No.16046823]

>>16046746

Thanks for replying

>Greek and Latin also has a very distinctive benefit in that it allows for incredibly subtle differences in meaning

I agree with this, but it only applies to literature not philosophy where the massive vocabulary of English and its flexibility to borrow words from other languages shine. It’s the same with Japanese.

[Anonymous No.16046824]

There will only be ENGLISH in the future

[Anonymous No.16046826]

>>16046810
I wouldn't say less intelligent but definitely less developed. It obviously doesn't prevent them from being accomplished in other disciplines.

[Anonymous No.16046832]

>>16046693
why is a japanese person on 4channel?

[Anonymous No.16046836]

>>16046806
Realistically one never stops studying Hanzi and Kanji, as there are theoretically infinite characters to memorize, and you have to continuously work with them to retain them. It reveals that language is a process of communication between listener and speaker (or writer and reader), something that is obscured by alphabets, abjads, abugidas, etc, given speech a false-permanency.

[Namefag No.16046846]

>>16046826
Have you thought of the possibility that it is developed, just in different ways?
Honestly, I don't think onomatopoeia hurts the language's practical use.

[Anonymous No.16046859]

>>16046832

Maybe I want to talk with foreigners? Besides I visit
forums of many countries because it makes learning colloquial expressions easier.

[Anonymous No.16046863]

>>16046761
It also lends itself wonderfully to poetry and verse for the very same reason, though.
The usage of onomatopoeic words wasn't even a thing until well after the war; it's far from being tradition, and its institutionalization is mostly due to the fact said "island spearchucker language" is too difficult for the average reader, to the point any proper use of vocabulary is deemed pretentious by a large part of the population. I guess that's what post-war consumerism does to your people.
>>16046806
You can realistically memorize all the common kanji in 10 months if you dedicate enough time into it, it's only like 3,000 tops. But to achieve fluency (a.k.a. college-level) that number is going to double, and it's going to take you way longer to get to that point.

[Anonymous No.16046866]

>>16046846
I have thought of that and have in fact mentioned it in my previous post. While Europe produced the world's philosophy, Japan produces aesthetic kanji on parchment.

[Anonymous No.16046873]

>>16045972
The Japanese are laughably bad at writing detective or mystery stories. You should look into it more. The way the plot twists work feel like something a lobotomized Westerner would come up with.
The Japanese are good at creating narratives that revolve around a single theme though.

[Anonymous No.16046874]

>>16046795
>In reality you can memorize all the kanji in like ~10 months
do you realize that many kanji are generally used in compounds only and learning a kanji means learning just a syllable of a word(s)?
Also, kanji are generally non phonetic so grinding kanji helps little with listening.

[Anonymous No.16046891]

>>16045972
Every OP is retarded in its own way, and so is every language. Read Matthew 7:3.

[Anonymous No.16046896]

>>16046859
Your English is good.

[Anonymous No.16046910]

>>16046866
I find amusing irony in the fact it's a pseudo-philosopher trying to paint the craft behind the belles letres, now beyond forgotten but murdered by the instauration of English as the lingua franca, as worthless merely because it flies past his small worldview.

[Anonymous No.16046912]

>>16046693
Based and Heideggerpilled

[Namefag No.16046919]

>>16046866
No, I talk about content. Not acknowledging Japan's finest literature is pure idiocy.

[Anonymous No.16046920]

>>16046866
Japan has philosophy. What about 物の哀れ? Compare that to the Platonic idea of the eternal form.

[weed No.16046930]

>>16046693
Holy based...fuck a*glos and their language of commerce

[Anonymous No.16046955]

>>16046919
>Japan's finest literature
yotsuba chan and it's variations

[Anonymous No.16046956]

>>16046919
The acknowledgment japanese literature deserves looks a little something like this.

[Namefag No.16046967]

>>16046955
Your lack of knowledge about stuff doesn't make them nonexistent.

[Anonymous No.16046977]

JAPAN WILL UNLOCK THE SINGULARITY AND MAKE ANIME REAL CONTINUE SEETHING HATERS

[Namefag No.16046982]

>>16046956
Have you read Japanese literature?

[Anonymous No.16046987]

>>16046891
Fitch?

[Anonymous No.16047001]

>>16046982
No

[Anonymous No.16047009]

>>16046967
they have good literature that is vastly inferior to what the west has produced.
japanese men love yotsuba lol

[Namefag No.16047011]

>>16047001
So you can't judge it, stupid. That's how it works.

[Anonymous No.16047020]

The Japanese and East Asians in general are very primitive people who had access to technology. Generically and culturally they aren't too far off of your average isolated Amazonian tribe, but they had access to technology and civilization because of geographical location.

[Anonymous No.16047035]

>>16047011
I am judging it based on familiarity with their language.

[Namefag No.16047036]

>>16047009
>japanese men love yotsuba lol
And that's a generalization

[Anonymous No.16047048]

>>16046171
> picking fucking one of them
There aren't enough phonemes in the language to avoid lots of homophones. Kanji differentiates the homophones when they're written. You can't conjugate words without hiragana. Hiragana is just kanji that evolved into pronunciation-only, nno-ideograph characters. There was a spelling reform proposal to get rid of kanji and it got voted down because reading Japanese without kanji is much harder, if you're literate.

I know Japanese has the most ridiculous writing system in the world but Kanji is really information dense, you can infer the meaning of a word you've never encountered before based on the characters. Like fire 火 mountain 山 means volcano 火山. This is an arbitrary example but it's constantly useful when you're reading texts. Kanji is not without its advantages.

I think it's the hardest writing system in the world, Japanese reading and Japanese speaking are two completely different skills, but still, you can't get rid of kanji that easily.

[Namefag No.16047054]

>>16047035
But you don't understand the cultural relations of their language

[Anonymous No.16047055]

>>16045972
>complaining about the complexity of context dependence in the same paragraph where you complain about the simplicity of onomatopoeia
Whining about Japanese is such an esoteric thing to do that the only explanation is that you're experiencing pic related

[Anonymous No.16047070]

>>16046232
most language newbies think English is hard because our writing is non-phonetic. How the fuck does Spanish get along just fine even though it's phonetically written?

[Anonymous No.16047098]

Learn farsi. It’s so grammatically regular that you’ll lose your mind. Also, really flexible, and you have cool features like direct object markers. The only shame is that you have to learn the perso-Arabic alphabet, which is really bizarre for use in Farsi, since it’s not designed for the language.

[Anonymous No.16047107]

>>16047098
What's the difference between the Farsi direct object marker and the Japanese を particle?

[Anonymous No.16047141]

I'm crossposting this to /jp/

[Anonymous No.16047332]

>>16046232
>you have to rely on thousands of different complex characters to tell words apart then your language is the opposite of efficient.
You're unironically retarded if you think that Chinese/Japanese speakers have to parse every possible meaning that a sentence could have because of homophones. Context and word frequency help disambiguate meaning. Besides, not every word is composed of a single syllable, plenty have more than one. You get used to patterns, and all that. Did you know that when you read, you don't look at each individual letter, but you look at the word as a whole? There's not that much difference between alphabets and hanzi/kanji, the latter is just more compact, but to your brain both represent concepts.

Of course you can make a sentence full of homophones that makes sense only when written out, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den
but you can do the same in English too, with
>Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
or
>James while John had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the teacher
and it's retarded to do in either language.

[Anonymous No.16047346]

>>16045972
I know a lot about this subject and being the most knowledgeable person on this topic that I personally I know, I'm just here to tell everybody that they're wrong and then gloat the most information I can about it. This is obscure enough that nobody in my real life can hold a conversation about it, so I'm glad you have all gathered here today so I can gratify myself by proving how smart I am to me.

[Anonymous No.16047353]

>>16047346
Based

[Anonymous No.16047354]

>>16047048
This always seems like a weak argument (it comes up a lot for Chinese as well). Most could be understood from context. For some common words, there could be simple additions to differentiate them (like English two, to, too). Much easier than learning thousands of characters.

Better reasons are cultural and aesthetic.

[Anonymous No.16047391]

>gave up on German to learn Japanese
Was the best decision in my life.

[Anonymous No.16047483]

>>16047346
True and based.

[Anonymous No.16047865]

>>16046824
Which is depressing because english is only good as a trade language. No one should have to suffer with english being their mother language.

[Anonymous No.16047937]

>>16047107
I don’t know Japanese.

[Anonymous No.16048005]

>>16047098
>It’s so grammatically regular that you’ll lose your mind.
Except for different past and present tense stem verbs.
>cool features like direct object markers.
Whoa, a definite article but as a postposition.
>The only shame is that you have to learn the perso-Arabic alphabet,
It's the best part, faglord.
>which is really bizarre for use in Farsi, since it’s not designed for the language.
Neither was the previous writing system.

[Anonymous No.16048033]

>>16045972
Japanese is a very elegant and logical language. It’s also not overly wordy and demands that you pay attention because if the contextual cues that make up the language. This in turn breeds deeper thinking and higher learning capacity. Compare this with English and the degradation thereof with street dialects that blacks speak, and you quickly see why English is so flexible to its detriment. Japanese may be very structured, but it is not beyond the ability to form new words adopted from foreign languages, and forming new verbs is simple (just attach る to the end of a new word like ググる (to Google)).

[Anonymous No.16048046]

>>16045972
are you seriously too retarded for pragmatic pro-drop
>>16046179
they have native words for numbers, they just no longer use them in a cardinal sense.

i'm begging everyone in this thread to please take a single linguistics class holy shit

[Anonymous No.16048125]

>>16048046
thank you, god damn

[Anonymous No.16048137]

>>16048046
>>16048125
Can you samefag any more obviously?

[Anonymous No.16048147]

>>16045972
>dokidoki
>wakuwaku
https://youtu.be/RtTYQuO1j6w

[Anonymous No.16048151]

>>16048137
no i guess not huh

[Anonymous No.16048185]

>>16048137
there can be more than one sane person in a thread at once

[Anonymous No.16048674]

Monos deserve to die.

[Anonymous No.16048795]

Fuwafuwa and mofumofu are the only words you need.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbci8iwDejs

[Anonymous No.16048805]

omaera bakamono
omaewamou shindeiru
atatatatatatatatatatatatata


japones é legal
alimentei-me do cu do postador original
quero que todo mundo se exploda
café café café com leite

[Anonymous No.16048847]

>>16045972
Welp, Japan is one of the nicest places on the planet, meanwhile the ppl who created literature, philosophy, tons of modern math/science, etc. were too dumb in politics to protect their countries so now all of the major cities they/their ancestors built have huge no-go sections dominated by brown people who hate those traditions. At least we don't use sillywilly words as much as the nips though!

[Anonymous No.16048995]

>>16045972
Because all words in Japanese end in vowels or with "n"-- no other consonant. It's rather bizarre and makes for a lot of childish-sounding words to Western ears./

[Anonymous No.16049031]

>>16045972
>it is different than my language so it's dumb
>onomatopoeia sounds babyish in my language so that makes it objectively babyish
Why are native English speakers so solipsistic about their language?

[Anonymous No.16049172]

>>16045972
>Zawazawa

[Anonymous No.16049211]

>>16048147
Touhou NIGGER

[Anonymous No.16049226]

>>16048147
cute

[Anonymous No.16049297]

>>16046183
Houellebecq is shit.

[Anonymous No.16049326]

>>16047141
Be sure to link it over to dゲイt too
>>16047391
Are you literally me?

[Anonymous No.16049359]

>>16049326
I asked in DJT, there were no meaningful answers.

[Anonymous No.16049456]

>>16049359
Did you link it over to the right DjT?

[Anonymous No.16049462]

>>16046017
The three systems make it one of the fastest languages to read once you git gud

[Anonymous No.16049612]

>>16048847
If you think "muh race" and "muh tribalism" are the reason the west went to shit, and not because everyone is drifting with a starved, but inflated ego, I have some bad news for you, cowboy.

[Anonymous No.16049634]

>>16049612
If you think that "muh starved, inflated ego" and "muh drifting" are the reason the west went to shit, I have some bad news for you, cowboy.

[Anonymous No.16049672]

>>16046045
>”Go home after 5:00PM, you’ve done enough work today.”
>”I do!”
>“No, I would not like to buy slightly used underwear for 1400 yen.”

[Anonymous No.16049742]

>>16049634
Keep clinging to that sense of belonging, I'm sure it will get you to somewhere else, besides posting embarrassingly stupid shit on the internet. The reason the west went to shit is because everyone is conditioned to think they will be somebody special one day, someone that will make a change, and not just another peon that will have a boring life and die nameless in history. This is what happens when you grow up in a safe society, away from the daily reality checks about your mortality, to suffocate your ego in its infancy. The reason why Japan is doing alright is due to the way their culture is build; the ego is suppressed in favor of respecting others. Then you take a look at current America and see the majority of people trying to have an ego trip over the most trivial of issues.

[Anonymous No.16049884]

>>16049742
>No data for any of these conjectures
K meanwhile brown people take up a military-sized chunk of the federal budget, constantly march in the streets and break stuff over lies, tangibly make every major city have huge no-go zones, vote for hate speech laws, deny whites access to top universities and research positions through affirmative action, vote for huge welfare states, provably stagnate wages, all backed by copious and easily findable data.

>This is what happens when you grow up in a safe society
Jej Japan is safer by literally all metrics than the USA. This proves that you're just making shit up and you yourself have an out of control ego untethered by any data. It feels good to espouse your position because you can safely state the status quo in a way that seems superficially edgy, without having to be an icky hereditarian on race.

Also black/brown people will exacerbate the problems you perceive with the west because they have way higher egos and hate whites way more than vice versa.

[Anonymous No.16050910]

>>16049297
stendhal is alright tho

[Anonymous No.16052021]

>>16045972
Yukio Mishima is really good though

[Anonymous No.16052092]

What's the /lit/-approved, high IQ way of learning Japanese? Surely the repetitive, brute way of flashcards is beneath the patrician class?

[Anonymous No.16052243]

>>16045989
fpbp
Alternatively keep seething over nothing OP.

[Anonymous No.16052278]

>>16049672
kek

[Anonymous No.16052406]

>>16045972
>lifetime of memorizing the most inefficient alphabet
>lifetime
One year, assuming you're not retarded.

[Anonymous No.16052579]

>>16046048
>If you knew enough Japanese to have ever encountered the alternatives, you'd know that this is the only way to make the language work properly and efficiently.
You do know Japanese Braille has no kanji, right? Plus audiobooks are a thing in Japan too. Japanese can be understood in phonetic writing because it can be understood when spoken.

[Anonymous No.16052588]

>>16046045
>There does not exist any statement that you can make in English that you can not make in Japanese.
Nor vice versa. That's how human languages work.

[Anonymous No.16052591]

>>16045972
agreed. japanese sucks. korean however is the best language ever devised

[Anonymous No.16052596]

>>16052406
you do know japanese uses kanji too right

[Anonymous No.16052597]

>>16045972
Now imagine a cute girl saying all of those and tell me your cock doesn't get rock hard.

[Anonymous No.16052599]

>>16046156
>Japanese has 100 phonemes.
I don't think you know what 'phoneme' means.

[Anonymous No.16052610]

>>16046212
You don't suppose the lack of intellectual titans in those languages might have more to do with not having a long history of being the languages of large, rich educated societies?

[Anonymous No.16052618]

>>16046232
It's not though, Japanese can be understood in phonetic writing for the same reason it can be understood spoken.
>>16046389
Er, cot and caught aren't homophones for everyone. And as for the classical works- the ones written all in kana are in really, really old-fashioned Japanese and the ones entirely in Chinese characters in either really really old-fashioned Japanese or fucking Chinese.

[Anonymous No.16052620]

>>16052579
1. Have you ever read a book written entirely in kana or entirely in Chinese characters? In other words, have you ever actually tried to read a Japanese text written entirely phonetically?
2. Have you read much of anything at all in Japanese?

[Anonymous No.16052623]

>>16052618
>And as for the classical works- the ones written all in kana are in really, really old-fashioned Japanese and the ones entirely in Chinese characters in either really really old-fashioned Japanese or fucking Chinese.
That's my point. They're difficult to read, not because of their vocabulary, but because of their orthography. If you'd ever tried to read a transcribed speech, or any other text, in which an excessive amount of kana is used, you'd know how much of an inconvenience it is.

[Anonymous No.16052669]

>>16046490
Even in Mandarin, homophones aren't a problem in the actual spoken language. They can be a problem in written styles highly influenced by Classical Chinese, though.
>>16046746
There are actually some people doing a Japanese equivalent of Anglish at inishienomanabi.net and some threads at 5ch (search 純大和言葉 for the latter).
>>16046891
English spelling is convoluted, but it does have rules, according to which ghoti can only be pronounced like goatee.
http://zompist.com/spell.html
>>16047048
>There aren't enough phonemes in the language to avoid lots of homophones.
The main reason there are so many homophones is because they borrowed a bunch of words from Classical Chinese, and lost a lot of the phonemic distinctions including tones. If you used only native words and European loans, you'd have almost no homophone problem at all, though even as it stands it's not a problem in practice, as demonstrated by the fact that Japanese people can understand each other when they talk.
>Kanji is really information dense, you can infer the meaning of a word you've never encountered before based on the characters. Like fire 火 mountain 山 means volcano 火山.
To some extent you can do that even without kanji, though it's harder than less homophonous Sinitic and Sino-Xenic languages. Even if no one knew the kanji 学 they could recognize the common morpheme がく in がくせい and せいぶつがく and がっこう, just like Koreans recognize the common morpheme 학 in 학생 and 생물학 and 학교 even without being able to write the hanja 學.

[Anonymous No.16052675]

>>16047332
That Chinese poem is honestly kind of cheating. It's written in Classical Chinese (i.e. Old Chinese) and only works if you pronounce it in Mandarin. If you pronounce it in Old Chinese it's not ambiguous, and if you translate it into Mandarin it's not ambiguous either.

[Anonymous No.16052681]

>>16048005
>Whoa, a definite article but as a postposition.
Eh? A definite article isn't the same thing as a direct object marker, what are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.16052685]

>>16052591
Hangul is a prime example of why Japanese wouldn't work without kanji.
Should've kept Hanja but rice peasants wanted to inflate literacy rate the easy way kek.

[Anonymous No.16052699]

>>16052620
1. No, but I'm not a native speaker and don't have a native speaker's vocabulary.
2. A decent amount, though I know I need to read more.
>>16052623
What? That's the exact opposite of my point. Those works are written in either highly archaic Japanese, or Classical Chinese which is a whole different language family. This:
>Hwæt. We Gardena in geardagum,
>þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
>hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
>Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
>monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
>egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
>feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
>weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
>oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
>ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
>gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning.
is not made any easier to understand by the fact that it's in the same alphabet we use today.

[Anonymous No.16052702]

>>16052685
>Hangul is a prime example of why Japanese wouldn't work without kanji.
Explain.

[Anonymous No.16052775]

>>16052702
Well, it's not that it literally wouldn't function but rather there's no benefit.
The only upside is it's easier to learn but that doesn't matter for natives in a country with mandatory high quality education. It only mattered when rice farmers couldn't read anything because they couldn't go to school which fuelled class divide and inequality, which is what Hangul was trying to address.
It tries to compensate for the lower written information density by squishing three symbols together but Hanja is just straight up more dense.
On top of all that, just read all the previous posts about the central importance of kanji in Japanese and to lose all that just so it's easier for kindergarteners and foreigners to read the letters is pure madness.

[Anonymous No.16052815]

>>16046033
If you think this is off topic just fucking report instead of bumping you fucking newfag

[Anonymous No.16052817]

>>16052775
How's it more dense? One hanja and one hangul are both one syllable.

[Anonymous No.16052842]

>>16052817
I was talking about kanji and hiragana. Got them mixed up.

[Anonymous No.16052854]

>>16052842
Or more precisely, talking about how trying to compensate for density by squishing letters together wouldn't work with kanji.

[Anonymous No.16052858]

>>16052854
I mean, you could use half-width kana. Plus, kana are simpler so you can print them smaller and have them still be legible- old games will have 8x8-pixel kana that you can read but all but the simplest kanji become unrecognizable when you squish them down that small.

[Anonymous No.16052869]

>>16052669
>http://zompist.com/spell.html
> ə @ *a*bove, cyn*i*c, *u*ntil

In what fucking world?

[Anonymous No.16052876]

>>16052869
In his accent, apparently. He says he's doing it based on his accent.

[Anonymous No.16052887]

>tfw more I study the more I come across cringe words like that which are actually unpleasant to hear and say
I kind of get what you mean but still eh

[Anonymous No.16052889]

>>16052876
>I'll use my own, of course-- a version of General American that's unexcitingly close to the standard.
>unexcitingly close to the standard
>close to the standard
>close

Fuck off that doesn't answer my question.

[Anonymous No.16052890]

>>16052858
Yeah isn't it great how they can use hiragana only IF they have to?
Isn't it also great how they can and do prefer to use kanji in normal circumstances?

[Anonymous No.16052916]

>>16045972
Retard does relativism. Awful thread.

As a mongrel ハーフ, not a linguist, I think this post sums it up perfectly >>16046635
I.e. you cant fully understand something for which you have not built the conceptual framework for - which is what anon has been telling this coomer monoglot faggot OP throughout this whole thread.

[Anonymous No.16052919]

>>16045972
This is the first letter of my given name
mirin?

[Anonymous No.16052931]

>>16052889
I'm not sure what to say. Two of those three have schwas for me too, and "cynic" doesn't seem that surprising since the second i is unstressed, and schwa ultimately seems to be the fate of all unstressed vowels in English.

[Anonymous No.16052935]

>>16052890
I mean it creates a system that's frustratingly difficult to learn for no real benefit, but I suppose it does have some neat side effects like non-standard furigana or kanji substitution puns.

[Anonymous No.16053005]

>>16052935
>frustratingly difficult to learn
For one, it's not frustrating at all, and like I said before, the inconvenience of learning more characters is irrelevant for natives.
>for no real benefit
That's just not true.

[Anonymous No.16053014]

>>16045972
t. brainlet who can neither understand philosophy or japanese yet is only aware of the latter because he tried to learn it and failed

Presuming that the production of profound philosophical works in Japan is as a result of the complexity of their language rather than the intricacies of their society is folly. One cannot expect the plebian caste, the spectre of a malevolent shogun still fresh in their psyche (and language), to dedicate their lives to a craft that necessitates saying controversial things

[Anonymous No.16053030]

Also japanese isnt even difficult, your brain is just addled by constant stimuli so you cant take 30 minutes out of your day to memorize a few kanji

[Anonymous No.16053040]

>>16053005
Japanese can be written just as well phonetically, as evidenced by Japanese Braille. Any advantage of compactness in character count is balanced out by kana remaining legible at smaller sizes/resolutions. What advantage do they have other than things like character substitution puns and non-standard furigana?

[Anonymous No.16053053]

>>16053014
>w-we just need more time! for now take this harem romance light novel, gaijin-sama.

[Anonymous No.16053063]

>>16052699
>1. No, but
Then you have no idea what you're talking about. Not only have I done so, but I've also discussed the issue with native speakers. It's impossible to read.
>2. A decent amount, though I know I need to read more.
You don't sound like it.
>Those works are written in either highly archaic Japanese
Your Japanese isn't good enough if you think that Classical Japanese is "highly archaic." Try studying harder and you'll get it.
>Classical Chinese which is a whole different language family
The average educated Japanese person could read Classical Chinese with fluency from the beginning of writing in Japanese until the late Meiji period. If you had ever studied it, you'd also know that Classical Chinese is translated on the spot into Classical Japanese when written.
There is no comparison with English. If you think that Old English is comparable to Classical Japanese, then you are either completely terrible at it or you have never studied it.

[Anonymous No.16053074]

>>16053063
>It's impossible to read.
So how can blind people read Japanese Braille (which has no kanji)? How can people understand audiobooks in Japanese?
>Your Japanese isn't good enough if you think that Classical Japanese is "highly archaic."
Several hundred years of linguistic drift is the literal definition of "archaic".
>The average educated Japanese person could read Classical Chinese with fluency from the beginning of writing in Japanese until the late Meiji period.
Yes, but it's still a separate language.
>If you had ever studied it, you'd also know that Classical Chinese is translated on the spot into Classical Japanese when written.
I'm aware, I'm trying to learn how to do so myself but my goodness it's difficult.

[Anonymous No.16053075]

>>16053063
A correction: impossible is an exaggeration. It's just much, much more difficult to read, partly because parsing the beginning and end of words is difficult, and partly because an enormous amount of information is missing just because of the lack of Chinese characters.
>>16053040
No it does not. Would you argue that Braille is easier to read than regular text for people with eyes? If not, you'd better drop that retarded argument.

[Anonymous No.16053085]

>>16053074
>So how can blind people read Japanese Braille (which has no kanji)?
1. Have you ever studied Japanese Braille? If not, you'd better shut up.
2. Would you argue that Braille is more efficient than the written word for people with regular, working eyes? If not, you'd better shut up.
3. Has it ever occurred to you that these audiobooks are only comprehensible to those who already understand the language to a high degree, including the Chinese characters? There are character combinations that I can understand in speech just because I have seen them often enough in writing for them to become natural. Without my knowledge of Chinese characters, they would be incomprehensible.
>Several hundred years of linguistic drift is the literal definition of "archaic".
You don't know that much about it, do you? The grammar of Classical Japanese is essentially the same as it was one thousand years ago. There are differences in vocabulary and usage across time, but there was no serious "linguistic drift," not like there was with English.
>I'm aware, I'm trying to learn how to do so myself but my goodness it's difficult.
It's difficult at first, but it will become automatic with time and a little effort.

[Anonymous No.16053094]

Agree with OP; as I grew out of my weeb phase I realized what Japan actually is, and that it's inferior.

[Anonymous No.16053097]

16053053
You fundamentally misinterpreted my post. Perhaps reread it and, after careful analysis, try again. Maybe then I'll give you a (you)

[Anonymous No.16053098]

Don't forget
>gomugomu
>beriberi
>chopchop
You fucking goose.

[Anonymous No.16053106]

>>16053040
I don't know why you're stuck on the size thing. One, you can write kanji in tiny spaces, you're only referring to a niche case of outdated tech not having enough pixel density to write kanji small enough. It's literally a non-issue now with modern screens. Two, no one is going to read/write smaller than text on a smartphone screen. Three, hiragana and kanji characters are all about the same size. "Just write smaller lol" isn't a solution.

>advantages
I dunno man, feel free to browse all the posts ITT.

[Anonymous No.16053110]

>>16052681
دختر يک دفتر دارد - the girl has a notebook
دختر دفتر را دارد - the girl has the notebook
What's the functional difference between marking the definiteness of the direct object with را and a definite article, like Arabic ال?
البنت عندها دفتر - the girl has a notebook
البنت عندها الدفتر - the girl has the notebook

[Anonymous No.16053112]

>>16049884
>Japan is safer by literally all metrics than the USA
When talking about safety, I talked in a historical sense. The next sentence I explained why Japan is different. But keep thinking "le color" people are the problem, ignoring that what makes them bad, is in you as well.

[Anonymous No.16053113]

>>16053097
Please stop.

[Anonymous No.16053144]

>>16046312
>What you believe is required to "get" the japanese language is a rationalization of the time you invest for ever diminishing returns
I see it over and over, not just regarding the language itself, but for its media products as well. Oh this video game is a literary masterpiece, but you'd only know if you know the language ;). It's a pathetic language and (almost) everything that they produce is pathetic as well.

[Anonymous No.16053160]

>>16053144
Popular media is garbage the world over. It's more likely that you yourself do not read anything serious, and would therefore only be rewarded with the same low-grade slop that you can consume in your native language if you were to learn Japanese.

[Anonymous No.16053162]

In any case, the contemporary reason japan produces no profound philosophy is the same reason why the west, roughly post great depression, never will again. The reason Japan had not produced profound philosophy has to do with relative prosperity and the aristocracy. Without literally spelling it out for you, I can say that the answer will be obvious if your cross reference, for example, 19th century german to japan

[Anonymous No.16053177]

>>16045972
>"doodoo" or "weewee"

[Anonymous No.16053181]

>>16053162
Define "profound philosophy." If you don't find Buddhism, Confucianism, or Shinto interesting, you won't find most Japanese philosophy interesting, just like someone with no interest in Christianity, the Greeks, or the Romans would find the vast majority of Western philosophy uninteresting.

[Anonymous No.16053185]

>>16053160
Oh yeah, it's me. It's always anything but the profound depth and meaning of the Japanese language and the crap it shits out. Get fucked you weeb faggot.

[Anonymous No.16053189]

>>16053162
I think it's just that everyone who's philosopher material in modern society are all scientists and mathematicians now.
Scientists trying to do non-natural philosophy is completely unbearable as well.

[Anonymous No.16053193]

>>16053185
Listen mate, there is interesting stuff in Japanese, but, just like the rest of the developed world, almost all of it is old and unknown to the average person. Have you heard of Watsuji Tetsuro? Or Miki Kiyoshi? Or Nishida Kitaro? Or Maruyama Masao? Or Nanbara Shigeru? Have you heard of literally any of Japan's modern scholars and thinkers? Or do you think that anime and Murakami Haruki are the best that the country has to offer?

[Anonymous No.16053204]

>>16053185
>>16053193
Also as an addendum: in order for something to be interesting, you first have to care about it. If you do not give a damn about the Second World War or the process by which Western institutions were absorbed outside of their homelands, then even the most sophisticated treatise on these questions in Japanese will be of no interest to you. It's okay to not care about anything the Japanese have to say, but that doesn't mean that they have nothing interesting to say.

[Anonymous No.16053251]

>>16053075
>partly because parsing the beginning and end of words is difficult
There are contexts in which modern Japanese is written without kanji- children's books, and old computer games, mostly. In those contexts it is generally written with spaces between words.
>Would you argue that Braille is easier to read than regular text for people with eyes?
No? The only thing Japanese Braille proves is that Japanese can be written and understood without kanji.
>>16053085
>Have you ever studied Japanese Braille? If not, you'd better shut up.
What, are you saying that every blind person in Japan should be assumed to be faking the ability to read and write anything meaningful until proven otherwise?
>Would you argue that Braille is more efficient than the written word for people with regular, working eyes?
No? I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'm not saying that Braille is better, just that it proves Japanese can be understood without kanji.
>Has it ever occurred to you that these audiobooks are only comprehensible to those who already understand the language to a high degree, including the Chinese characters?
Those who already know the language well, yes. But that doesn't necessarily imply knowledge of Chinese characters- those who are blind from birth have never seen a single Chinese character. Yet I have never heard anyone complain that it is impossible to intelligibly explain certain concepts to blind people in Japanese and I'd be curious to see if you could find any instance of that.
>There are character combinations that I can understand in speech just because I have seen them often enough in writing for them to become natural. Without my knowledge of Chinese characters, they would be incomprehensible.
No, you'd see them in phonetic writing, maybe have to look them up the first time, and then see them again and again, and subsequently understand them in speech, just like in every single other language.
>There are differences in vocabulary and usage across time, but there was no serious "linguistic drift," not like there was with English.
The first written Japanese is pretty darn different from the modern language. Maybe not quite as much so as the English of the same period, but the difference are not trivial. Modern Japanese has substantially simplified its verbal morphology for instance- there is nothing directly corresponding to なりき, なりつ, なれり, なりぬる etc as far as I understand.
>It's difficult at first, but it will become automatic with time and a little effort.
I'm curious, how'd you learn it?
>>16053106
The human eye can only resolve down to a certain resolution, and there are circumstances like labels on some types of products where being able to print words very small is advantageous.
>>16053110
If both of those are grammatical, it doesn't sound like it's exactly an object marker, so much as a definite article, so why did they call it an object marker?

[Anonymous No.16053287]

>>16053094
>he posts with a satisfied smirk on the most infamous weeb platform on the English speaking internet

[Anonymous No.16053288]

>>16053251
I don't understand your emphasis on the size thing. Just print larger letters lol it's not that hard especially since kanji "makes up for it" as you say by being more compact.

[Anonymous No.16053308]

>>16053185

you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan you're on 4chan

You stupid faggot

[Anonymous No.16053326]

>>16053287
>>16053308
I remember people hating weebs back in like 2006 and it got the same dumb response then, as if this being 4chan somehow protects your cartoons from criticism.

[Anonymous No.16053374]

>>16053326

>they/them replies again on their favourite futaba derivative online haunt

Awesome post again anon, good shit man, you showed the weebs

[Anonymous No.16053389]

>>16053374
My point is that this stupid argument has been ongoing for at least 14 years. You don't get a special pass for no one to call you a faggot, faggot.

[Anonymous No.16053431]

>>16053389

Another sick post from NOT A WEEB ANYMORE anon, proving that there has always been an ideological split on his go-to asian culture inspired imageboard.

Lucky you've been on this notjustforweebs website for long enough to let us all know about this huge cultural rift thanks anon

[Anonymous No.16053442]

>>16053431
Imageboards are the only positive contribution of Japan to humanity.

[Anonymous No.16053484]

>>16053442
We'll have to take your word for it, i mean christ you've been here since 2006, you've outgrown your weeb past! I guess now you're an 'oldfag' you just stalk the halls of /lit/ replying to threads about japan? Heckin awesome

[Anonymous No.16053539]

>>16053251
(1/2)
>There are contexts in which modern Japanese is written without kanji- children's books, and old computer games, mostly. In those contexts it is generally written with spaces between words.
The language used in those contexts is extremely simple, just like the language of children. Complex language requires Chinese characters to be easily comprehensible. If you were to take this to its logical conclusion, you'd end up arguing for Japanese to be completely reconstructed such that it is dependent on English. There is no other way to get rid of Chinese characters.
>No? The only thing Japanese Braille proves is that Japanese can be written and understood without kanji.
Braille is not writing. For the love of God, Braille is not writing. It is not a substitute for writing. It cannot be used to argue for or against the utility of an entire writing system, especially given that the overwhelming majority of people who end up having to use it once had eyesight and studied the language normally like everyone else, but later lost it. This argument is weak.
>What, are you saying that every blind person in Japan should be assumed to be faking the ability to read and write anything meaningful until proven otherwise?
No, I'm saying that you seem to be making an argument without the knowledge and experience necessary to back it up in the full knowledge that nobody on this website can rebut you.
>No? I'm not sure where you're getting this from. I'm not saying that Braille is better, just that it proves Japanese can be understood without kanji.
No it does not, because you have provided no data on either Braille users or the material that is available in Braille. You haven't even given us any information on the literacy of children who are born blind in Japan. We may as well assume that every single person who uses Braille has already learned Chinese characters and simply no longer has eyes to see them.
And the point is that Chinese characters and the syllabary are of consequence only to people who can see. You must make an argument concerning these elements with regard to those who will actually have to see and use them, because otherwise you might as well be talking about the Welsh and Chinese characters for all the relevance that has to the conversation. You're wasting our time, probably because you've gotten beaten in arguments before, and should stop.
>Those who already know the language well, yes. But that doesn't necessarily imply knowledge of Chinese characters- those who are blind from birth have never seen a single Chinese character. Yet I have never heard anyone complain that it is impossible to intelligibly explain certain concepts to blind people in Japanese and I'd be curious to see if you could find any instance of that.
You've just moved the goalposts. It is possible to explain any concept using speech, but that tells us nothing about what the most efficient form of writing for any language is.

[Anonymous No.16053542]

>>16053251
>>16053539
(2/2)
>No, you'd see them in phonetic writing, maybe have to look them up the first time, and then see them again and again, and subsequently understand them in speech, just like in every single other language.
No, I would not, because the meaning is tied to the character. Without knowledge of the character, one cannot readily understand combinations using it.
>The first written Japanese is pretty darn different from the modern language. Maybe not quite as much so as the English of the same period, but the difference are not trivial. Modern Japanese has substantially simplified its verbal morphology for instance- there is nothing directly corresponding to なりき, なりつ, なれり, なりぬる etc as far as I understand.
Exactly the same grammatical forms were used up until the Classical language was abolished by fiat of the American occupation in 1948. I suggest that you read the Imperial Rescript on surrender, the beginning of Mishima Yukio's 憂国, or Nadeshina's letter in 春の雪 if you want to see what I mean. If you have institutional access, see if you can find Konoe Fumimaro's published essays from the 1920s or Nagai Kafu's diaries. Both are written in elegant Classical Japanese.
Basically, think of Classical Japanese as a standardized language based on the grammar of the Heian period literary language, similar to Classical Arabic. Each author used different elements from the long history of this language in different ways, but the language remained the same from beginning to end.
>I'm curious, how'd you learn it?
I took a class and then I brute-forced it. I spent June reading a book in Classical Chinese with diacritics attached for ease of reading. If you have access, 西晋一郎 published some really good edited editions. The source materials and the commentaries included will give you an idea of the wide variety of Japanese that was used up until things started being phased out.

[Anonymous No.16053613]

>>16053539
>The language used in those contexts is extremely simple, just like the language of children.
I mean... not really? When they made Final Fantasy IV Easytype, they simplified the language for younger players, so the original couldn't have been that dumbed down.
>Complex language requires Chinese characters to be easily comprehensible.
Which is why nobody in Japan has ever had a spoken conversation about complex concepts without constantly writing down characters.
>Braille is not writing. For the love of God, Braille is not writing. It is not a substitute for writing.
WHAT? I literally cannot find a definition/description of Braille anywhere that doesn't have the word 'read' and/or 'writing' in the first sentence. Have you gone off your rocker?
>>16053542
>No, I would not, because the meaning is tied to the character. Without knowledge of the character, one cannot readily understand combinations using it.
The meaning is tied to the morpheme, the character stands for the morpheme. Speech is primary, writing serves to record speech. (There are cultures with no writing, but there are no cultures with no speech.) This is basic linguistics.
>Exactly the same grammatical forms were used up until the Classical language was abolished by fiat of the American occupation in 1948.
And people continuing to use a centuries out of date written register that made literacy much less accessible to the average person is supposed to be a good thing?

[Anonymous No.16053720]

>>16053613
>And people continuing to use a centuries out of date written register that made literacy much less accessible to the average person is supposed to be a good thing?
This is completely wrong. All evidence points to the fact that there were no problems with Japanese literacy before the war. Also, if you want to have any sort of intelligent conversation about this, you'll have to figure out how to define "out of date" in a manner that isn't simply hand-waving. Protip: you can't.

[Anonymous No.16053783]

>>16053720
How are you defining "no problems"? Even now people have difficulty handwriting all but the most common words in a way that just doesn't exist in societies with sensible writing systems.