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/lit/ - Literature

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16019862 No.16019862 [Reply] [Original]

Holy shit, what if schizophrenics are actually in touch with parallel universes and can see multiple realities simultaneously, causing them to appear incoherent and neurotic? Is there any philosophical works that give hallucinations any significance?

>> No.16019906

>>16019862
no. hallucination are religious concern. there's no such thing as hallucination. any perception reflects existing reality. brain is not generator with its own will.

>> No.16019920

Main indicator for schizophrenia is Paranoia.
Why would a schizo then ever admit to having Paranoia to anyone? since if they really are paranoid the psychiatrist asking them will also be subject to the irrational paranoia.

Plus most hallucinations aren't grand. It's gunshot sounds or text on walls, birds flying at you when none of that actually exists. What grand parallel universe is trying to communicate like that?

>> No.16019928

>>16019920
>Plus most hallucinations aren't grand. It's gunshot sounds or text on walls, birds flying at you when none of that actually exists.
Clearly you have never met an unmedicated schizo.

>> No.16019927

>>16019920
You speaking from experience?

>> No.16019982

In ancient times, schizos would have been considered prophets and mystics, and may have risen to the priest caste. Think about it, whole countries would have been lead by the mentally ill. People were so stupid back then lmao.

>> No.16020027

>>16019982
tru dat

>> No.16020031

>>16019927
Yes.
>>16019928
I know there are various degrees of schizophrenia symptoms but really the differences only come up when you meet the doctors and helpers.
Plus in Europe they drop taking care of you if you say you don't want to be taken care of (this propably has exceptions for victims in further stages of treatment).
If one envisages the sleep psychiatrist doctor questioning one as the villain doctor from outlast during a non existant thunderstorm, where one cries to the assistant doctor after he leaves the room and confess what one saw, but then say one wants to leave and not come back, there is nothing they are gonna do.

>> No.16020034

>>16019920
>Main indicator for schizophrenia is Paranoia.
No it ain't

>> No.16020038

>>16019982
African tribes still revere them for the same reasons and look at them: Stupid savages living in huts and doing retarded shit all day. Meeting them is probably the closest thing to time travel for now.

>> No.16020054

>>16019906
I love you

>> No.16020057

>>16019982
>>16019862
You are overlooking one crucial fact, schizophrenia did not used to exist, it is a modern manifestation

>> No.16020069

>>16020057
see>>16019982

>> No.16020082

>>16020069
It did not exist in ancient times, only delusions did, schizophrenia did not

>> No.16020087

>>16019982
This is utter nonsense with 0 proof. Schizos are actually obviously mentally ill people and you can easily tell without having any background in science or psychology. Prophets were the wise men. Someone as dumb as a schizo would never be considered wise.
Just look at the bible for examples of prophets. Do any of them talk or act in any way similar to the way schizos act on /x/? No, they were not retarded, they were most likely smarter than everyone around them and that's why they were elected to the post and were allowed not to work.
I'm an atheist so I don't believe in actual prophets but I can clearly see that you just want to call the prophets schizos because your brain is too simple to appreciate complexity and actually try to understand where the ancient people were coming from.
>>16020038
[citation needed]

>> No.16020114

>>16019862
yah? and maybe the reason i can never see the mustard in the fridge until my mom points it out to me is because it only phases into existence in response to my mom’s presence.

>> No.16020139

>>16020034
Based of the writings and works of Kurt Schneider the most important german psychiatrist on the topic Paranoia was one of the first indicators of schizophrenia from the soldiers who were deemed unfit for the front and sent to his psychiatry.
(I can't find the JSTOR article anymore where I first learned this).

>Die vorherrschenden Symptome der Subtypen der Schizophrenie lassen sich unter den Stichworten Wahn für die paranoide Schizophrenie, affektive Veränderungen und Desorganisation des Denkens für die hebephrene Schizophrenie und psychomotorische Störungen für die katatone Schizophrenie zusammenfassen
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symptome_und_Diagnose_der_Schizophrenie
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symptome_der_Schizophrenie_nach_Schneider
The US DSM-5 still refers to Schneiders first order symptoms so it is not jsut a german phenomenon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosis_of_schizophrenia#DSM-5

>> No.16020156

>>16020087
Whoa. you are extremley dumb. Schizos seen as prophets are a different archetype that those found on the West. Go and read about something else than western prophets you nigger

>> No.16020178

>>16019982
this is literally just modern materialism attacking religion ("spiritual values are insane lmao")

>> No.16020200
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16020200

>>16019862
Speaking as someone who has experienced psychosis (though drug induced yet nonetheless persistent despite the cessation of said drug use), almost assuredly. Psychosis always makes you misjudge the intents of others, yet never in a consistent way for each person, this is beyond confusing as one would think that your paranoia would have a traceable source to some insecurity about the relationship you have with said person — but it never does. Certain hallucinations, furthermore, have a very bizarre way of interacting with the world around you, for example I have felt doors being pushed against for a split second, I have heard my own voice, how to go to places I have never been, and have remembered things down to how they felt that I have never experienced. Perhaps the most bizarre part of it all is the confluence of all these occurrences with intense religious symbolism, whether produced by my own feverish scrawling or simply by happenstance.

These experiences have lead me to conclude that there is most definitely a power higher than myself (former atheist), but that it does not belong to any one religion. I am still uncertain if it is benevolent force of good or simply an old and stupid thing unaware of its power but I lean towards the first option, no doubt for my own sake and to curb existential dread. Dreams are also excruciatingly terrifying and though I have plenty of trauma from which they could stem, they are also bizarrely disconnected from any emotions experienced in my real life.

>> No.16020222

>>16020087
Have you met such a person? Have you talked or actually tried to understand a person like that?
they have a different perception than the rest of us.
Also try looking at some popular artists from the past (writers, painters) and read a bit about them and their perception

>> No.16020229

>>16020082
It absolutely positively did.

>> No.16020236

>>16020229
dude hasnt been in a museum man leave him

>> No.16020254

>>16019982

Absolute revisionist hogwash. Priests and mystics weren't rambling schizo's, they attained trancelike states during rituals (often through the use of entheogens) which might make them seem schizo to other observers.
The only way you'd believe this hurr durr schizo's are mystics New Age crap is if you've never had a conversation with a schizophrenic person, or a mystic for that matter.

>> No.16020262

>>16020200
>These experiences have lead me to conclude that there is most definitely a power higher than myself (former atheist), but that it does not belong to any one religion.
This is true from even the most cynical and materialistic point of view. Humans are far, far more vulnerable than we'd like to imagine.

>> No.16020264

>>16020254
>only reads the bible

>> No.16020267

>>16020156

Lmao you are an actual retard. You think 'non-western' cultures aren't able to spot an obvious raving buffoon?

>> No.16020276

>>16020264

I'm actually specialized in pre-mesopotamian religion, specifically the Ubaid culture, and shamanism, go fuck yourself.

>> No.16020286

>>16020229
>>16020236
I very well know it didn't. All other mental illnesses were described in historical medical tests, melancholy, delusions, madness, all except schizophrenia. The defining feature of schizophrenia is fractured thought processes that manifests itself in things like word salads or an acute complete emptying of all thoughts

>> No.16020303

>>16020286
>madness, all except schizophrenia
wew lad. Tomato, but never Tomahtah

>> No.16020312

>>16020276
>shamanism
Suuure thing bud, you're special, you got that right.

>> No.16020327

>>16020303
Fuck off nigger, keep coping with the fact you know nothing

Coomer image board brain

>> No.16020362

>>16020327
Eat my ass, whiny bitch. People would sometimes suddenly believe that their perfectly healthy infant child was replaced by a changeling and thus leave them outside until they die of exposure or actively torture them to death pursuing folkloric remedies. In no way is this behavior not consistent with schizophrenia.

>> No.16020371

religion was definitely created through narcotics and schizoids

>> No.16020389

>>16020362
Those are delusions, not schizophrenia. I very clearly mentioned delusions were present, like the princess who believed she swallowed a glass piano when she was an infant and was afraid to walk through door, which is clearly a delusion

>> No.16020392

>>16020262
I would say it's doubtful that my understanding of this higher power is shared by many, and many more people are committed atheists or at least never let the thought of a higher power enter the realm of any serious thought. The powers I have felt are sometimes extremely base and primal sometimes caring and loving, but not in a way that even vaguely resembles human emotions, urges or instincts. The base and primal powers exist on the fringes, seeming all together alien and I'm not entirely sure if we try to mimic them or they try to mimic us. The more empathetic half feel far more human, as in they have motivations, but the nature of the emotions they display is indescribable and often overwhelmingly so.

>> No.16020427

>>16020389
Bad example, but you explicitly stated "madness" which is what we called them before we invented the term schizophrenic.

>> No.16020431

>>16020392
read the selfish gene, it tries to discuss how as humans we are merely a vessel of selected genes, and that the concept of species is incredibly contrived.

>> No.16020460

>>16020427
Okay I'll make it more simple for you. Using the modern criteria for mental illnesses one can find examples of all of them in historical medical texts, from Ancient Greece to Rome, to Persia, to the middle ages and the Islamic empires, all of them EXCEPT for schizophrenia

One cannot find a single case before the first diagnosis by Emile Kraepelin. Schizophrenia literally means "splitting of the mind" to indicate the fractured mind and thought procceses of one with schizophrenia, from ancient greek schizein and phrēn, phren

>> No.16020468

>>16020276
>specialized
>uses the term "shamanism"
this nigga for real?

>> No.16020479

>>16019862
OP, are you aware that there are substances that are psychotomimetic? In that, as the name implies, they mimic the symptoms of psychosis. I suggest you look into them if you are interested in learning about schizophrenia.
Schizophrenia is a subject that interest me greatly, and I have mused about it a lot. I became a sort of psychonaut almost strictly out of curiosity in exploring psychosis. I have come up with some theories regarding it, but nothing sufficiently organized for me to construct a coherent post right now.

>> No.16020492

>>16020057
Nonsense. Psychotic people have always existed, it's just that our treatment of them has changed.

>> No.16020509

>>16020431
I had forgotten that Richard Dawkins coined the term meme, will definitely be checking it out at the very least because of that.

>> No.16020521

>>16020460
How ludicrous! So you can't personally find a complete description of what the babbling madman on the corner subjectively experienced? So what? These people would not easily survive in the ancient world. They are prone to crime and irrational violence. Of course there would be little evidence for them. Absence of evidence is by no means evidence of absence, especially in these cases which people would have reason to actively destroy.

>> No.16020541

>>16020492
Psychosis and schizophrenia are two clearly distinguished things
>>16020521
Schizophrenics are not more prone to violence and crime than normal people are, I do not know where you got this from. Physicians very clearly seeking to document all illnesses of the mind in all ages, and they described dozens after dozens of cases, they would have no reason not to describe schizophrenics if they stumbled upon them, all the signs of schizophrenia that are used to diagnose it today are external signs, something the ancients always had access to.
>So you can't personally find a complete description of what the babbling madman on the corner subjectively experienced? So what?
Physicians actively seeked people like that out, as their intention was to heal them

>> No.16020542

>>16020509
He has a blatant conflicted popularity at this point, but it's really hard finding anyone who discusses philosophy in a way that feels appropriate for the 21st century, besides Baudrillard.

>> No.16020554

>>16020139
I thought it was if psychosis persists past 6 weeks or something. This is interesting though

>> No.16020568

>>16020541
Psychosis is implied in schizophrenia.
But for the sake of clarity, how do you define and differentiate the two?

>> No.16020579

Has no one read D&G?

>> No.16020587

>>16020568
Ohter mental illnesses also cause psychosis like depression or dementia. Psychosis is a group of related symptoms, schizophrenia is an illness and a diagnosis

>> No.16020589

>>16020568
Psychosis is a symptom of various personality disorders, like bipolar, and can even be brought on by drug use, e.g. meth. But schizophrenia is a personality disorder, marked by symptoms such as personality changes, irritability, lack of hygiene, and psychosis.

>> No.16020593

>>16020541
>Written documents that identify Schizophrenia can be traced to the old Pharaonic Egypt, as far back as the second millennium before Christ. Depression, dementia, as well as thought disturbances that are typical in schizophrenia are described in detail in the Book of Hearts. The Heart and the mind seem to have been synonymous in ancient Egypt. The physical illnesses were regarded as symptoms of the heart and the uterus and originating from the blood vessels or from purulence, fecal matter, a poison or demons.

You made me use Google products. Shame on you.

>> No.16020604

>>16020579
Imagine thinking anyone on /lit/ reads and understands D&G to the point of being able to use them in a discussion. Come on fag, look at where you're at.

>> No.16020606

>>16020593
>A recent study into the ancient Greek and Roman literature showed that although the general population probably had an awareness of psychotic disorders, there was no condition that would meet the modern diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia in these societies.

Same page, literally next paragraph. Schizophrenia correlates strongly with population density and the industrialization of a society, the denser the population and more industrialized a society, the more shizophrenia is prevelant. The most common finding in the causes of schizophrenia is that its much more common in high density urban areas than low density rural areas

>> No.16020632
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16020632

>>16020606
Guy, I'd never argue that cosmopolitanism isn't destructive to the human soul.

>> No.16020700
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16020700

>>16020606
So what was present in ancient Egypt that was absent or minuscule in ancient Rome? Could there be a certain demographic that is correlated to this disease of the mind whose movements can be traced across these places? And does this demographic tend to occupy modern cities and avoid rural areas?

Hmmm...It's all just so mysterious....

>> No.16020704

>>16020587
>>16020589
Exactly. Where is the disagreement then? As I said, psychosis is implied in schizophrenia. It is one of the main symptoms of it.

>> No.16020709

>>16020704
Psychosis is not a symptom.

>> No.16020731

>>16020709
ffs are you going to keep walking back and forth with your arguments?

>> No.16020734

>>16020700
>So what was present in ancient Egypt that was absent or minuscule in ancient Rome?
Rome had 1 million inhabitants and remained the largest city to exist for over 1000 years. Medicine in Ancient Egypt was not advanced and so they tended to mistake things for one another and not accuretely depict them, not to mention we have practically no literature from Ancient Egypt as compared to Greece or Rome

>> No.16020747

>>16020731
No, because I've already proven my point. You are free to scour the abundant medical textbooks of the past to find me one example of schizophrenia experts couldn't find

>> No.16020750
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16020750

>>16020734

>> No.16020778

>>16020750
OHHH I'm retarded

>> No.16020786

>>16020747
From wikipedia
>Schizophrenia is a mental illness characterized by continuous or relapsing episodes of psychosis.
Schizophrenia is intrinsically linked to psychosis. And as I said before, psychosis has always existed.

>> No.16020801

>>16020786
>wikipedia
Please use something serious. And look up the etymology of schizophrenia, very clearly distinguished from other causes of psychosis

>> No.16020865

>>16020801
I am aware of the etymology of schizophrenia. That does not interfere with my arguments in any way. And if you look up "difference between psychosis and schizophrenia" you will find numerous medical and psychiatric websites which all state the same thing: psychosis is a collection of symptoms, and schizophrenia is a condition which has psychosis as one of its defining features. If anything, one of the main differences between schizophrenia and other causes of psychosis is that schizophrenia is a chronic reoccurrence of psychosis, as stated in the wikipedia article.

>> No.16020874

>>16020579
>D&G
What?