/wg/ - Writing General

[Anonymous No.16005171]

For talking about the craft.
Last one was excellent lads, keep it up.
Previous: >>15974415

[Anonymous No.16005199]

How does it feel like knowing you could write the best shit ever but someone won't get it cause the cover isn't pretty ?

[Anonymous No.16005203]

I'm in the process of writing politically dissedent non-fiction in Europe and I have no idea how I will publish it.

[Anonymous No.16005238]

Posted late in the last thread:

Just wanted to post and not be a lurker.

I'm writing a story that contains a lot of things (lol). Its about a species of humans who have powers, but are being subjugated slowly and are losing them over time. Thats the main plot, but it isn't revealed initially. The story itself follows a group of 12 children (with powers) who were brought to a facility with roughly 80 others who also have powers, and they were going to be used to wage war against regular humans. They end up escaping, and seeing the modern world very much for what it is (because they don't have social conditioning and such). The earth as we know it is only a fraction of a much larger planet, think of the pictures of flat earth, and then place that on a larger sphere (roughly the size of Saturn or Neptune). There are other facilites, each with their own children, and the main 12 have to decide whether or not to free the others, possibly throwing earth into even more chaos (because as their presence becomes known, people actually begin to wake up (in the /pol/ sense)), or let them remain captive and potentially turned into their enemies. As things ramp up, ww3 is on the horizon, and their main antagonist (a jew) mass produces cyborgs in an attempt to stop them.

There is a lot more than this, but I'd like to think that if I was able to publish this, I would get killed for it. Thats my larp for the day. Thanks for reading.

[Anonymous No.16005272]

>>16005199
implying i wont make sure the cover is pretty

[Anonymous No.16005279]

Should I give up on writing if I am a woman?

[Anonymous No.16005315]

>>16005279
No.

[Anonymous No.16005329]

>>16005279
I was under the impression that the majority of fiction writing is now comprised by women anyway?

[Anonymous No.16005337]

>>16005199
Counterpoint: A pretty cover will make people who hate your writing style regret buying it.

[Anonymous No.16005354]

>>16005329
I'm not scared of not being accepted for being a woman, just that I'm so biologically handicapped by my gender that nothing I write will ever be worth anything.

[Anonymous No.16005356]

>>16005279
Lady, if your content is engaging and you're personable then the world is your oyster.

Learn off some bitcoin jokes and maybe reference Stephen Fry, publishers want to like you, just give them a reason to fight your corner

[Anonymous No.16005377]

>>16005354
I'm not sure I understand. You mean that in being born a woman you are physically incapable of writing something others would be interested in?

[Anonymous No.16005421]

>>16005354
Plenty of good writers have a vagina, would you prefer to not try and let your craft fade as you sit at your desk in the office

[Anonymous No.16005432]

>>16005203
You're either gonna self-publish it or give up on the notion of money completely and simply spread it out in your spheres of influence in the hopes one of your friends or something will refer it further and therefore make a chain of mouth-to-mouth suggestions to read your shit.

[Anonymous No.16005438]

>>16005238
Nobody is reading that entire fucking wall of text you blathering faggot

[Anonymous No.16005449]

What are good books that teach you the craft of writing?

[Anonymous No.16005455]

>>16005377
>>16005421
You're being baited, fellas.

[Anonymous No.16005461]

>>16005455
But I really am a female girl

[Anonymous No.16005463]

>>16005171
Aw! You used my fixed picture. I'm touched.

[Anonymous No.16005474]

>>16005461
In that case it won't be much trouble for you to prove that with a picture of your BIG badonkadonks and a time stamp
Or mosquito bites or whatever ya got honey

[Anonymous No.16005478]

>>16005449
Read a book on the structure of stories, then go from there. If you are genuinely terrible beyond redemption in your prose, read Elements of Style, it'll get you to mediocrity if you follow it slavishly

[Anonymous No.16005490]

>>16005455
Man, what even is bait these days then. I had no reaction to that anon's posts other than genuine curiosity.

[Anonymous No.16005502]

>>16005463
Why are you talking like a flaming homosexual?

[Anonymous No.16005510]

>>16005474
And /lit/ says they aren't sexist

[Anonymous No.16005528]

Good resource on story structure and outlining?

[Anonymous No.16005535]

>>16005478
>Read a book on the structure of stories
Which ones are the best?

[Anonymous No.16005704]

>>16005528
>>16005535
Those kinds of books aren't very helpful desu. They're on the outside looking out, whereas you want something that guides you from the inside. There's no book for this because it depends on the kinds of stories and writers you like.

What it comes down to is studying the works of your favorite authors. Deep analysis of even one novel or short story is more helpful than reading through twenty books on writing, story structure, outlining etc. It's hard work though, which is why people prefer the false sense of competency they get from reading a writing book. Then when they finally sit down and try to write something they're puzzled as to why it's trash.

Here's my advice (stolen from Gene Wolfe): create your own anthology of short stories using an epub maker. Pick one. Read it over and over, take a few notes until you've got the whole thing in your head. Then attempt to rewrite the story from scratch. Compare with the original. Repeat. Wolfe apparently took this one step further and just ripped off stories that he thought he could do better or could be done as sci-fi and published them. This is the only sure-fire method I know of (a lot of great writers have done it and its common in many other kinds of art, like music or painting) but it's extremely difficult.

[Anonymous No.16005723]

>>16005528
I highly recommend Plot & Structure by Bell, and Techniques of the Selling Writer by Swain. Most of the "on writing" books I've read have been very less good than these.

[Anonymous No.16005726]

>>16005238
>They end up escaping, and seeing the modern world very much for what it is (because they don't have social conditioning and such)
This is retarded.

[Anonymous No.16005729]

>>16005490
I was being real. I'm just depressed and when I am depressed I read lots of women-hate rhetoric on 4chan to decide if it's a good reason to off myself or not.

[Anonymous No.16005753]

>>16005729
But then it's still bait, for personal attention and assurances that you should keep writing.
Instead of yourself, why not talk... about writing.

[Anonymous No.16005762]

>>16005704
This is good advice. Literature must be informed by literature. There are no shortcuts around engaging with the discourse literature has with itself. I wish these threads were more focused more on literature than on self-help style how-tos.

[Anonymous No.16005765]

>>16005753
True

[Anonymous No.16005770]

>>16005723
>Techniques of the Selling Writer
Oh fuck I think this was the exact book I was trying to remember right now. I wanted to ask if it was a good book.

[Anonymous No.16005780]

>>16005199

So...why don't you get a pretty cover?

[Anonymous No.16005784]

>>16005704
idk I asked the only published novelist I know which books to read, and she recommended Stephen King's On Writing, so maybe I'll go with that.

She is only 19 too desu

[Anonymous No.16005795]

>>16005784
>published at 19
Who did she fuck to make this happen?

[Anonymous No.16005801]

>>16005795
Think it might be family connections tbqh

[Anonymous No.16005810]

>>16005784

I asked the only published author I know, who is only 19 too, how to get published. She's autistic so...honestly I have no fucking clue what her answer was.

She writes twilight ripoff stuff, basically though, so i think that's the answer right there, anyway.

[Anonymous No.16005815]

>>16005810
>>16005784
How many 19 year old autistic female novelists are there

[Anonymous No.16005821]

Fellas I feel this thread is not off to a great start

[Anonymous No.16005832]

>>16005815
Probably lots, I'm sure.

[Anonymous No.16005855]

>>16005801
>>16005795

She is though genuinely the most productive person I have ever met in my life, I think she's written a handful of books this year already.

[Anonymous No.16005863]

>>16005855
What type of books does she write

[Anonymous No.16005873]

>>16005863
Haven't read any since my grasp of the language she writes in is mediocre but apparently very character focused psychological type books.

[Anonymous No.16005877]

>>16005238
You have 12 main characters?!

[Anonymous No.16005882]

I've written like 5 books, none of which got published. Well, except the self published one, but that pretty much bombed, after like 2 years of being out I think it's sold exactly 2 copies.

I have short stories, memoirs, essays and stuff published, though, but that hasn't really led to anything.

Right now I'm working on my masterpiece, you know, that book where you just pour your heart out, everything you know, everything you are, into one book. Then after that, I think i'm going to kill myself. Really all i got going on.

[Anonymous No.16005890]

>>16005882
Killing yourself is a solid strategy for getting noticed

[Anonymous No.16005895]

>>16005877
Meh, one of the worst stories I've ever read introduced like 12 characters just in the first paragraph, and it wasn't even that long of a paragraph.

That got published in Harper's. So...what do I know?

[Anonymous No.16005896]

Do you have any advice/guidelines on how to write open-ended fiction? I do have an idea or two for stories that could be turned into a series, but I don't have any clue as to how to develop them. If I know the ending in advance, I can work my way back, but without an ending in sight, I'm at a loss. I suppose I could come up with a list of objectives that the character has to achieve in order to progress, and treat these as endings. Do you think that could work?

>>16005171
>>16005723
We should keep a pastebin/MEGA folder with resources.
I saw a book being mentioned in the other thread (no. 15988229):
>Anyway, read Olen Butler's book. He's big on the intuitive side of storytelling and actually details some methods to achieve it.
Anon was talking about "From Where You Dream". I'm going to start reading it tonight.

>>16005821
As with all good things in life, it was derailed by men talking about women.

[Anonymous No.16005912]

>>16005896
>Do you have any advice/guidelines on how to write open-ended fiction?

Well stop thinking and just start typing.

[Anonymous No.16005915]

I want to write an anime visual novel but no one will ever buy or read it.

[Anonymous No.16005917]

>>16005896
Don't come up with a list of objectives for a character to check off, find some sort of core psychological problem of the character that needs to be changed or addressed, and then find a way that that could theoretically happen.

[Anonymous No.16005929]

>>16005279
Traps are not NOT women. You have a penis. I can hear it in your words.

[Anonymous No.16005938]

>>16005704
>>16005762
>>16005912
>JUST DO IT XDDD
Go fucking jump off a building head first and bash your fucking skull against the concrete you fucking imbeciles. We are taking this seriously.

[Anonymous No.16005944]

>>16005762
Well, to start the discussion, one of the things I've found from studying my favorite stories is that I have very specific tropes that I like. Certain things will inspire intense emotions whereas others will just annoy me. Themes of forgiveness, piety or humility, characters that are self-sacrificing or charitable, plots where the main character changes his social standing through hard work or reconciles with lost loved one, relationships between parent and child or brothers or between childhood friends, rural, or naturalistic settings, formal, sweeping prose etc. And I noticed that when you read the works of one author, say a short story collection, you'll encounter the same phenomenon. The author will talk about the same themes, using similar characters and settings. I think part of the reason to read widely is to figure out what it is you really like, so that you can then go back and study how they were done and then practice until you can do it too. It's a lot like learning a magic trick.

[Anonymous No.16005947]

>>16005929
That is a great compliment, thank you. I've been trying very hard to put penis in my words so to know that I'm succeeding is really encouraging.

[Anonymous No.16005949]

>>16005238
Wait a minute. Children escape facility and want to free children from other facilities. Why does that sound like The Promised Neverland?

[Anonymous No.16005954]

>>16005938

Hey you know, I wasn't going to really say anything, but you realize there's no real advice in this thread, right? This is all common sense shit, that if you need to be told it, you have no business sitting down at a keyboard.

[Anonymous No.16005988]

>>16005917
>find some sort of core psychological problem of the character that needs to be changed or addressed
That's how I write short stories, though. And the core psychological problems are based on my own's.
Wouldn't the resolution of the psychological problems automatically lead to closure? And wouldn't dragging out their resolution be tedious and pathetic?

>>16005915
Pitch it on /jp/. Bribe them with the promise of a Touhou character cameo if they tell you to fuck off.

[Anonymous No.16006010]

>>16005938
>>16005954
He's right you know. You have to be born an INTJ or INTP with at least one of your planets in Caprico or Libra in the year of the Rat to even be able to write something decent, and that's not even speaking about publishing.

[Anonymous No.16006011]

>>16005988
The thing is that different characters can have different psychological problems which conflict with each other and cause all kinds of things to happen

[Anonymous No.16006019]

>>16005988
I think people tend to go back on their bullshit. This one novel I'm reading right now (which to be honest isn't my favourite but it's interesting psychologically) is about a guy who basically no matter what he does, cannot overcome his problems. Obviously don't resolve and then go back, but make it clearly hard for them to resolve if that makes sense.

[Anonymous No.16006031]

>>16006010

Yeah, well, being able to write something decent doesn't even mean much, as publishing is an entirely different story.

Honestly, if you write total shit, you might very well stand a better chance in the publishing world than a good writer, these days.

[Anonymous No.16006040]

>>16006019
>a guy who basically no matter what he does, cannot overcome his problems

You know....that's pretty much everybody's story. Right...?

Yes, even super successful people wake up everyday with the same damn problems that have haunted them their whole lives.

[Anonymous No.16006060]

>come up with stupidly complex story
>thread another story through it
>only the second story is actually told, the first is supposed to be pieced together by the reader
>stop writing for a while
>forget what the fuck either of the stories was supposed to be, even with my notes
>stuck sifting though 40k words of gibberish just to figure out what I was even doing

It's my own fault for having the epic idea of wanting to be the next DFW.

[Anonymous No.16006069]

>>16006040
In the novel, it's totally pathological, guy loses tons of money, his fiancée, respect of society etc. but yes all people have problems they never truly resolve, of course.

[Anonymous No.16006073]

>>16006069
well go to an AA meeting too, you'll hear that story all night long.

[Anonymous No.16006077]

>>16005896
Use techniques from writing long form tv serials like Mad Men, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, The Wire etc. Or if you want to write procedural type fiction (think mystery novels or tv sitcoms) study the techniques of those instead. For example for fantasy, you have the Discworld novels.

One technique that's really common in serial fiction is multiple pov characters. Also the key to making sure your story has enough steam to chug along for a while is an extreme reversal. For example, a story about a down-and-out ex-convict that eventually becomes the leader of a nation can run much longer than a story about that same convict reconciling with his daughter.

For procedurals the basic techniques are creating a setting where you can tell many different kinds of stories and/or creating a core cast of characters that bounce off of each other really well. Look at Seinfeld or House MD.

[Anonymous No.16006082]

>>16005988
>Wouldn't the resolution of the psychological problems automatically lead to closure?
No because relapse.
After the Great Epiphany, a person who has changed is assaulted by temptation in all directions. The worse of all comes from once-supportive family and friends who turn into enemies because they are used to the status quo and are now lashing out because the balance of power means they might have to also confront their own flaws.
Deciding to change often fails the first few times because lack of experience or a solid plan/system for change and underestimating the difficulties of change. Change may be unsustaineable or too hard and the protagonist may need some help to find an easier solution or a third way.
>>16006031
I could make but the sweetest wine if only you gave me your sour grapes.

[Anonymous No.16006086]

How do you guys push through the "this is horrifically cringe" feeling when writing?

[Anonymous No.16006105]

>>16006086
When I find a part of the story is cringe I'll write: [cringe] before or after that section and then keep writing.

[Anonymous No.16006108]

>>16006086
We don't that's why we're unsuccessful

[Anonymous No.16006109]

>>16006086
Its funny, we were talking about that last thread too. I think the general consensus was to drink before sitting down to write

[Anonymous No.16006121]

>>16006109
>drink before sitting down to write
Unironically this, it helps for literally any kind of writing. The words just come out. They'll probably suck though

[Anonymous No.16006129]

>>16006086
It helps if you actually write something to completion. Start small, a sketch, a flash fiction piece. Then go bigger, a 10k short story, a series of connected short stories, a novella. Or you can just try tapping away at full speed until you have a few completed novels. Even if you never publish that stuff or show it to anyone, it will serve as physical proof that you can finish and that will help you get through the inevitable downbeats.

[Anonymous No.16006141]

>>16006060
post excerpts!

[Anonymous No.16006154]

>>16006108
In a stupid way this reminds me of DFW's How Tracy Austin Broke My Heart. If pro-athletes might be especially good bc they don't introspect when playing, do good writers just possess some kind of lack of self-judgement? I don't think that's true, but I wonder if successful artists were delusional about their skill, but happened to be good.

[Anonymous No.16006172]

>>16006154
I think confidence is usually needed to really get great and put your stuff out there, the only greats who weren't confident were ones who had their stuff published after they died. Total lack of self awareness just results in cringe though.

[Anonymous No.16006174]

>>16006121
>They'll probably suck though
Its gonna suck either way, but the hard part of shitting the words out into a 1st draft for improving will at least be done.

[Anonymous No.16006194]

>>16006154
The word you're looking for is: "Shameless."
Scott Adams talks about how bad his first comics and books were but he kept going at it until he got good because he's shameless.

[Anonymous No.16006204]

>>16005726
Ok but why?

[Anonymous No.16006214]

>>16005949
Honestly, it could be. I dont watch much television or anything like that, so I'm sure some themes and stuff i have in my story are similar in others. I dont think I'm some groundbreaking writer or anything, I do it because the feeling of writing is enjoyable for me and the story has been in my head for 8 years.

[Anonymous No.16006216]

>>16006204
Why do you have 12 main characters?

[Anonymous No.16006231]

>>16005877
Yes. And a slew of supporting characters and intertwining plot lines and perspectives. I dont intend to get published - I would have ti change too much in my story. Originally I had 8 characters, but then I made 4 more and I liked them all too much to get rid of them.

[Anonymous No.16006238]

>>16006231
Post a character summary of one of them (including powers of course).

[Anonymous No.16006239]

>>16006216
Because the humans in the story can have one of 8 elements. I started with 8, then I made 4 more, and I liked them too much to get rid of them.

[Anonymous No.16006283]

>>16006238
His element is Water. Please keep in mind that this was written during the third book, and im currently on the 8th (page 1556 to be exact) and things have changed. This will read like some edgy nonsense, but do your worst.

Its supposed to be 'Tolias' (Toe-lee-us), because I changed his name after. He is based off of an Eastern European person. Cobalt is his name in the facility, Jeffrey is the common name he takes afterwards, and Tolias is his real name. All of the characters have 3 names that follow the same structure , though they're not all European.

[Anonymous No.16006301]

>>16006283
He sounds autistic

[Anonymous No.16006378]

I've written five novels now. Slef-pubbed one and made about $50 leaf-dollars. About to make my second try at self-pubbing with a short story on Kindle Unlimited. I have a lot of confidence in the story--all me beta-readers really liked the final revision--but I'm nervous as fuck that it's going to be totally demoralizing when it flops again.

[Anonymous No.16006407]

>>16006283
You have 12 main characters and they each have 3 names. Not to mention any side characters or antagonists who are also likely to have multiple names. Tolkien must be beaming upon you like the sun in the center of the earth.
I hope you do similar to Tolkien, or Infinity War, where characters are introduced slow and often split up in smaller groups.

[Anonymous No.16006414]

>>16006378
You need to advertise it dumb dumb, no one will find it in the see of books otherwise

[Anonymous No.16006420]

In the last thread there was an anon asking about which program to use for writing. I know I'm not the only one who get distracted by shit when trying to write so I just wanna recommend FocusWriter, a program I found in the Linux software store (whatever it's called). You can personalize to show just the blank page on screen so you can focus. I added also a word count and a counter for daily progress because I get anxious about it (also it's nice seeing my progress).

Now that I'm finally actually writing (4k words and counting), I wanted to ask, how do I know how long should be the first draft? I know very well in my mind that I want to write a novella, something along the extension of Camus' Stranger, maybe even shorter. I know, also, that I'm overexplaining some stuff, that definitely won't make it to the final cut, how do I do the maths? When should I begin to "close" the story? I have this process of writing where I jump from one thing to another, and if I wanted to, it could be infinite, but I want it to be a story with a start and a proper ending (although time bends inside the text).

>>16006086
Don't look back, keep writing, enjoy the ride and when is over, left it somewhere, you won't read it soon. Let it rest for some time and then come back, with a critical approach, don't feel bad if it's bad, you're learning, it doesn't mean you're boring, or you "aren´t cut for writing" nor anything like that, it only means you're improving.

[Anonymous No.16006429]

>>16006414
Of course I'm going to advertise numb-nuts.

[Anonymous No.16006444]

>>16006086
I got over it with practice. The better you get the lower your odds of producing cringe. It helps to also keep a measured emotional distance from your own work and remind yourself that it isn't done until you call it done.

[Anonymous No.16006609]

>>16006141
I'm too embarassed. The content is interesting to me personally but it's also drivel written by a clueless college student.

[Anonymous No.16006626]

Anyone writing non-fiction?
Is it really that big a deal if I finish my book first and come up with a proposal to get it published later?
I don't want to stop writing to put together a proposal.

[Anonymous No.16006632]

>>16006626
What is it about?

[Anonymous No.16006646]

>>16006632
It's sort of like Mortimer Adler for Classical Music

[Anonymous No.16006700]

>>16006086
You don't push through, you step back.

[Anonymous No.16006768]

Where the fuck do you find people to critique your shit?

[Anonymous No.16006835]

>>16006768
Right here. Post'em.

[Anonymous No.16006842]

>>16006768
home

[Anonymous No.16006861]

>>16006842
tsushima...

[Anonymous No.16006863]

>>16006768
In the days before quarantine. I would go to various writing groups. Have 2 or 3 meetings to find the smart ones and then ask for critique exchanges.

[Anonymous No.16006981]

>>16005354
But there are plenty of talented and insightful female writers, like J.K. Rowling, Stephenie Meyer, E.L. James... um Margaret Atwood... and, uh... Jackie Collins

Okay, but would you rather your work have literary value, or make you rich as fuck?

>>16005882
Have you thought about learning a musical instrument or taking a sculpture class?

Seriously, though, link some of you work, it would be interesting to see why it's failing. To paraphrase Tolstoy: All good writing is alike; all bad writing is bad in its own way.

[Anonymous No.16007024]

>>16006981
Literary value

[Anonymous No.16007025]

How's everyone's routine/process shaping up lately? I've spent the first 60-150 minutes of my day editing my old novel, every day, for the past month or so. I find I'm only on task for about a quarter of that time. Wish I could focus better.

Anyway, anyone want to read this short story of mine? Only 1.1k words, takes like 4 minutes to read. I think it's probably my best work.

>/https://larthurhunt.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/second-language-final-draft-1-2.pdf

[Anonymous No.16007207]

>>16005171
Is there an epub reader where I can highlight and write commentaries?

Or am I doomed to convert to PDF and use Acrobat features?

[Anonymous No.16007217]

>>16007025
>To take register of these is robbery. As if any beautiful thing in the world exists only in lieu of another.
Can you explain this to me? I don't know if it's just too late and I'm not thinking straight but it's going right over my head.

[Anonymous No.16007248]

>>16007025
I've only begun developing a rudimentary sort of routine, really. I'm writing every weekday now, leaving editing for the weekends. It feels like a good strategy for now. I used to measure the workday in terms of time but I realize now thats inefficient, I can spend an hour and a half of the 2 hours I've allotted to myself not writing at all. So now I'm aiming for a minimum of 2k words a day instead of some arbitrary time limit and find it feels a lot more tangible, which I'm glad for.
Great short btw. I think the exposition could have been dispersed a little more organically as opposed to being relegated all to its own passage, but otherwise I felt very moved. Some nice wordplay and the key emotion is prominent, feeling real.

[Anonymous No.16007280]

>>16007217
>>16007217

Idk, like, he thinks that beauty in the world is zero-sum. By observing hers he has less. Like he's taking something from her in finding her beauty. Basically he thinks nothing of himself and sees everything in her and can't cope with it. The piece is called Second Language because it's commenting on how language is secondary. It is their observances of one another and feelings of lust and attraction and empathy that are the primary communicators. Their first language. For him, that's too much to bear and kind of robs her of her mystique. He'd rather be silent or be apart from her than cheapen her beauty by association. He's a simp really.

>>16007248
Thanks for reading it. Yeah, word count targets are more effective than time parameters. But then you run into the problem of writing filler just to hit an arbitrary tally.

[Anonymous No.16007429]

>>16007280
>the problem of writing filler just to hit an arbitrary tally.
True, there's always something isn't there? I guess for me its particularly effective right now because I'm still on the first draft, so its really just "throw the words on the paper already, jesus"

[Anonymous No.16007441]

Why is it that 99% of published author's don't make enough to sustain themselves? Every published author that's taught me or spoken at my Uni, many with a bunch of 5 star reviews, have said that they barely make anything from their books. At what point does a published author even gain the chance of living off their novels? And I imagine, it's very dangerous for a published author who clears 70,000 a year to have no job as that income will dry up.

[Anonymous No.16007450]

>>16007025
I could not get past page 2. Was there a sex scene in the middle? I don't see the point in this story other than muh anima/waifu and even then not a very good waifu either. why should I like this gril?

[Anonymous No.16007456]

>>16007441
Critical acclaim =! popularity. Writers making bank are doing so by pumping out schlock YA or erotica and even that's a hard market to get into. You will never make money writing something else unless you're extremely lucky.

[Anonymous No.16007462]

>>16007450
Being pretty and willing to have sex with you is a good enough reason to like any gril

[Anonymous No.16007467]

>>16006981
>All good writing is alike; all bad writing is bad in its own way.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Plenty of good writing is different, read faulkner and hemmingway. Plenty of bad writing is exactly the same, read anything in the critique threads.

[Anonymous No.16007470]

>>16007441
You're usually only making real money off of writing by churning out junk fiction, as John Gardner put it. Which is by no means bad or frowned upon. Last thread people brought up Patreon and web serials, those writers make quite a bit off that practice and they have to write like 14k words a week and update their stories constantly

[Anonymous No.16007482]

>>16007441
Well, most of them are boring ass academics, that writes stuff that is technically great, but only appeals to other boring ass academics, and generates no interest whatsover from the the public.

They're also usually boring as fuck, and can't do interviews or generate any interest in a press setting.

[Anonymous No.16007489]

>>16007462
...and find plenty of reasons to hate them after sex is over. There needs to be something more.

[Anonymous No.16007618]

>>16005171
I have posted on these generals in the past a few items but i think my work was too long. So for now I'll just post one of my shorter (not mybest) poems from a few months ago

The Trench of Paths
Nestled in Gaias desolate clevage
Where slave master,
Mutants, Artist, Workers
Cluster into packing,
Lies the most unatrual, and loudest of lands
The trench of paths
Rusting, windmills, spinning
Powered by bruised engineers,
It seems they always did
Shallowed, waters, blackened
Flowing so slowly,
Yet moving forever
It seems they always did
Tall oaks, rotting,
Decaying slowly,
Yet not ackowledging the coming death
It seems they always did
Each day allowed, they sat in the hollowed night
Against the ashen towering stones
Staring at the moon,
Full, halved, cresnted, gone
The wrinkled old miner,
Praising all of the sattelites glow
Not ackowledging is instability
The blonde youtful bard,
Serenanding what had been stolen,
Cherising what little beam still shone
The rugged soldier
Angered at the ever darkening night,
Swearing to avenge the blackened
In those nights,
They contemplated the trench,
But then one day
A million miniscule afflictions
Rose from the seas,
And onto the roads,
And so a land of paths,
Electrified
But yet they still sat on the rooftops
Bickering about the moon,
And so the affliction,
Stirred the souls,
And then there shell
Blown out,
There ashes against the towering stones
They became monuments to forever
Only past to the future,
Nothing more

[Anonymous No.16007639]

>>16007618
Why is poetry so gay

[Anonymous No.16007648]

Thank god nobody in this thread has just decided to post any of their awful writing, unasked for, as of yet.

[Anonymous No.16007662]

>>16007618

You've given me hope. I was kind of down on myself earlier, but honestly, if i tried to be as bad as you, I don't think I could. I think I might have to have some sort of infection in my brain to make that possible. I'm doubling down on my work.

[Anonymous No.16007690]

>>16007618
This hurts my eyes

[Anonymous No.16007693]

What do you guys think are the best fantasy books to learn writing from? I'm currently reading BotNS and loving it, but it's very experimental, whereas my first writing project is more of a typical "fantasy man goes on adventure to save the day" kind of thing. What are some books that follow this standard narrative structure but execute it very well so that I can study them? Aside from Lord of the Rings of course.

[Anonymous No.16007695]

>>16007618
Your piece has given me the image of a man chewing tabacco and his own tongue.

[Anonymous No.16007703]

>>16007618
Learn how to spell

[Anonymous No.16007707]

>>16007693
Mahabharata.

[Anonymous No.16007851]

>>16006835
Not really sure what fragment to post but ok. From the first scene of the first draft of the last chapter I finished. Only been writing since last November so it's probably pretty garbage.

>>16007648
Hope I don't count. Will likely return to lurking regardless.

[Anonymous No.16007896]

>>16007851
There's a lot of references to stuff no one in this thread could have any context to understand. I can't tell if you're going for a serious or comedic tone. The flow is dull and almost nothing is happening here. Is this third person omniscient? I can't really tell. I wouldn't call it bad but it doesn't grab interest in any way. I don't exactly know what this scene is about and it doesn't really make me want to find out.

[Anonymous No.16007948]

>>16007695
Sounds pretty based to me

[Anonymous No.16007953]

>>16007707
Good point. my mindset with that question was more modern works, but I absolutely appreciate the epics and will be reading Mahabharata. In fact I'm currently making my slow way through the Shahnameh, as the setting for my series is vaguely persian inspired.

[Anonymous No.16007960]

>>16007639
Because your a high testosterone nigger

[Anonymous No.16007971]

Boy oh boy is it that time where we post blurbs for other anons to dunk on

[Anonymous No.16007994]

>>16007971
Are there people that actually refer to their sister as "sis" outside of badly translated anime dialogue?

[Anonymous No.16008020]

>>16007994
Me

[Anonymous No.16008042]

>>16007693
The first Wheel of Time book.

The Last Unicorn

The Fionavar Tapestry (Kay's stuff in general is good, but only this particular trilogy is traditional high fantasy)

The Chronicles of Amber (pulp fantasy schlock done better)

[Anonymous No.16008052]

>>16007851
I read this in Seymore's voice.

[Anonymous No.16008068]

>>16007971
George? Is that you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tLf1JO5bvE

[Anonymous No.16008088]

>>16005171
I am writing a novel about a teenage girl who falls in love with a part-fairy boy from a lost remnant civilization of the Hyperborian age. It takes place in a coastal town during the 1980's and involves the main characters, along with a cast of various characters battling various supernatural entities from Celtic mythology. Towards the latter part of the novel, it has been revealed that the actions of a mysterious former film producer in developing a new system of witless communication have lead to the influx of strange happenings, unveiling a conspiracy dating back just decades after the death of Christ.

[Anonymous No.16008105]

>>16008088
>witless communication
lol
It sounds really boring.

[Anonymous No.16008108]

>>16008105
wirless

[Anonymous No.16008109]

how do I get into writing postmodernism?

[Anonymous No.16008120]

>>16008108
Ahahaha

[Anonymous No.16008176]

>>16008088
Sounds like a good YA
So you'll make more money than anyone else in this thread

[Anonymous No.16008214]

>>16008052
>Why yes, I do suck at writing

>>16007896
Understandable, it's a brief moment to show character and convey things about the current change in society. It is third-limited, though. That pov tends to read stale because the character is meant to be a stale, stuck up, dull bitch at the start.

I'd post part of another pov's action scene but I don't want to shit the place up with shit. No need to turn this into /crit/.

[Anonymous No.16008228]

>>16008176
Thanks Anon, you made my day, I originally had my genre sights higher, but the more I think it through it's a ludicrous, but fun plot and I love it regardless, and if as you say is true I could use it to fund my career further.

[Anonymous No.16008301]

>>16007618
try giving me full sentences, only giving you this critique cause it applies to me aswell

[Anonymous No.16008333]

I wrote this in 40 minutes in a mad rush to join the Coronameron. The idea itself I'd had before, hence why it was on my mind to be written down. For a largely extempore thing I guess it wasn't too bad, but it was only the anonymity of the Coronameron that made me dare to post something I've written for others to read.
How do I into writing?

https://pastebin.com/xeqrnHEK

[Anonymous No.16008342]

>can write 1k words per day on first draft, 2k if I summon a genie

How fucked am I if I want to write novels?

[Anonymous No.16008348]

>>16008333
After your protagonist is introduced, you want to describe them doing something or have them talking about something. NOT a description of his backstory. This is not a wikia article.

[Anonymous No.16008366]

>>16008342
Stephen King writes 2k words a day.

[Anonymous No.16008376]

>>16008301
I get what you mean. I was trying to establish a tone with my limited words, more visual if anything, which I guess lessens the meaning. I think my trouble with full sentences comes from the fact that I encountered too many modern poems that seemed to literally be just reformatted paragraphs. But I will work on making my lines more coherent while maintaining shortness and rhythm. Thanks for the advice anon.

[Anonymous No.16008390]

>>16008042
Thanks for these, all going on the reading list.

[Anonymous No.16008391]

>>16008366
How many drafts does he go through though?

[Anonymous No.16008398]

>>16008391
Who knows?

[Anonymous No.16008410]

>>16008342
Not very fucked at all really, 2k per day sounds like a pretty respectable amount. Which is of course what you wanted to hear, wasn't it

[Anonymous No.16008476]

>>16005199
So make the cover pretty. Or at least minimalistic enough not to stand out as horrible.
>>16005279
If you think it's a reason worth giving writing up ... maybe. Although writing and potentially getting over your mental hangups and brainwashing might be still worth it.
>>16005455
Given the place, not necessary. 4chains does have some self-hating women (without a penor).
>>16005449
I read How NOT To Write A Novel and found it pretty nice. Drawing attention to stuff that is likely not going to work seems like a more productive and freeing approach than the usual writing by numbers shit.

[Anonymous No.16008488]

>>16005528
https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/write-character-arcs/
https://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthors.com/how-to-structure-scenes/

As with all writing advice, it's important not to take the shit as rules but pointers to get you going and think yourself.

[Anonymous No.16008489]

>>16006086
It was tough at first, but then I discovered that the main reason why I found my work cringe was because I put far too much of myself into it. I (half unconsciously) inserted heavy emotional significance and personal meanings to the characters and events, and when I stopped feeling a particular emotion over time, the scenes built on it started to feel "cringey" to me.

So I trained to remove myself from the text, completely dissociate myself from the characters and what they do and think. Instead, I started to look at my writing from the perspective of a carpenter looking at a block of wood. So long as a table has a surface and enough legs to keep standing, it's just fine for its purpose. If some corner feels off, I'll keep fixing it until I works better. Never experienced any "cringe" since.

[Anonymous No.16008499]

>>16008489
But then how do you infuse soul in your work

[Anonymous No.16008523]

>>16005896
I fucking hate to know the ending in advance ... but knowing where you go is still important, so I just work with multiple potential endings in my mind.

If you have a character and an idea of what they want and how they operate about getting what they want, you can mentally sketch out the probable outcomes, and then take a few steps back to the decisions which determined whether it went the A way or B way.

[Anonymous No.16008539]

>>16007971
>heat hating MC
Mein Afro-Amerikaner.

Also the writing is fine, although more tension and conflict would be preferable for the story. It's the logic of the character that rubs me the wrong way. People don't fucking need air conditioning to deal with the heat, open windows, showering multiple times and hanging wet blankets(or the likes) would do the job.

[Anonymous No.16008547]

Are we plotters...
Or are we pantsers?

[Anonymous No.16008557]

>>16005890
Actually this. I mean you really shouldn't anon but if you do it will definitely get attention. Just hope it's good because you can only use this marketing strategy once.

[Anonymous No.16008562]

>>16008547
I'm pantsing my plotting.

[Anonymous No.16008575]

>>16008557
Is it though? I considered it myself after guys like Breivik and Elliot but a critical bit to their fame was a huge PR action, not just a single death. Even if you spam all the newspapers and social media before offing yourself, what's the chance anyone will give a fuck if you just hang yourself somewhere?

[Anonymous No.16008577]

>>16007441
>Why is it that 99% of published author's don't make enough to sustain themselves?

When you start writing a book, you have to make a choice whether you will write the book that you want to write, or the book that will sell. Because they're very rarely the same thing. It's only after you've become famous that the former can become the latter, though even then it's not always guaranteed.

Most authors never think that far ahead. They just happened to write something they were able to finish, and made it appealing enough for a publisher to pick up. But it wasn't the type of a book that was ever going to be a huge hit, so they won't make bank with it. Because what gets popular with the masses very rarely has anything to do with quality or creativity, or can be easily explained with logic.

But since it's all they know and made them published, these authors then write another book, which is more or less the first book, but with a new coat of paint, and the result isn't any different, and the critics slam it too, because they've seen it before. Then they'll go to library events and elementary school theme days, bitter, confused men whose youth is behind, and tell everyone how books aren't worth your time if your goal is to get rich. And they'd be right.

[Anonymous No.16008587]

>>16008575
You need to get attention in some way so people will notice that you were a tragic artist. Leave some record in the world of posting your work online or trying to get published, or if you have a friend or relative who would attempt to get your work noticed after your death, leave it where they can find it. You can attempt an elaborate public suicide which will make big news so you become a controversial tragic artist. In any case you need a hook to get attention, there are probably a lot of ways to go about it.

No one should do this btw

[Anonymous No.16008588]

>>16008539
It's been over a hundred fucking degrees in Cali, bitch. The AC goes on.

[Anonymous No.16008591]

>>16008499
You learn the critical difference between empathizing and self-insertion.

[Anonymous No.16008595]

>>16008575
Make a spectacle (in minecraft). Seriously dont kill yourself bro.

[Anonymous No.16008603]

>>16008591
Self-insertion is great. Look at Dante, Faust, every single thing Nietzche has wrote.

[Anonymous No.16008607]

>>16008603
They ate the cringe and made it. Good luck with that.

[Anonymous No.16008612]

>>16008577
>whether you will write the book that you want to write, or the book that will sell. Because they're very rarely the same thing.
Outside of small edits to get rid of overly self-indulgent bits, I'm not sure this is accurate. People aren't that unique. It's very, VERY likely that there are millions of faggots just like you who'd enjoy the same crap. Even if 5% of them were willing to pay for it, you'd be a successful author.

Getting the word out to these people and being noticed seems like the tricky bit.

>>16008587
>>16008595
Don't worry, guys. Still have too much writing (and potential agents) left to seriously consider it as a promo.

Its just, that outside of something SERIOUSLY spectacular, it doesn't even sound like such a promising idea in the first place.

[Anonymous No.16008620]

>>16007441
Adding to what >>16008577 said
They work so hard to make their baby then they dump their baby on the floor, doing a halfshod job at marketing and advertising even though publicity is more important than the book itself. Or they end up with a monster of a story that they refuse to groom or trim down because muh purity, muh art and it ends up a mess.

[Anonymous No.16008624]

>>16008612
It's not that people are that picky as much as it's that people aren't that adventurous and won't pick up something that hasn't been heavily marketed to them, and publishers only want to bet on tried and true stories rather than someone's "unique new vision" more often than not

[Anonymous No.16008637]

>>16008612
>Even if 5% of them were willing to pay for it
But the number rarely is even 1%. "The book I'd probably enjoy" and "the book I'd pay real money for" are not the same and the hurdle to cross is HUGE

[Anonymous No.16008654]

>>16008637
You're right, it's utterly, utterly hopeless. Might as well not try if you're going to fail anyway, right?
I wonder what's on Netflix right now...

[Anonymous No.16008670]

>>16008654
Anon asked why most published authors aren't financially successful, as it is a fact that they aren't. I gave one major reason why. I don't know what you're crying about, but it is what it is.

[Anonymous No.16008674]

>>16008670
And I'm telling you to stop wallowing in the captivity of negativity.

[Anonymous No.16008680]

>>16008670
You cannot possibly be this autistic. Do you even understand how emotions are transmitted through words and phrasing. Obviously not.
>hurdle to cross is HUGE
>I'm sad
>Why are you crying?

[Anonymous No.16008684]

Is a compelling story more important for a novel that you want to sell then well written lines?

[Anonymous No.16008691]

>>16008674
So I should lie about shit that's common knowledge? What the hell?

[Anonymous No.16008696]

>>16008680
It's a simple statistical fact any author or publisher can tell you. Why are you this mad?

[Anonymous No.16008698]

>>16008691
If it's common knowledge, there's no need for you to bring people down, man. You're giving me really bad vibes here, man.

[Anonymous No.16008704]

>>16008684
Seems obvious enough for me. As long the writing isn’t horrible I could still read for the story. Great prose is entertaining for a page or two but eventually feels like watching someone masturbating if it goes nowhere.

[Anonymous No.16008708]

>>16008698
And I'm starting to get the vibes you've placed unreasonable stakes on your personal success as a writer.

[Anonymous No.16008711]

>>16008708
I'm not even the guy who asked

[Anonymous No.16008714]

>>16008684
>>16008704
Honestly I don't know what great prose is. Beautiful sounding prose is way out of style these days, and what people call "great prose" in modern times is usually just "clever and funny" in a way that makes me cringe. Clear serviceable prose with good rhythm and storytelling is fine.

[Anonymous No.16008719]

>>16006420
Overwrite it if you set a daily goal for your writing. There will be many days when you would write just to write, meaningless paragraphs you will end up deleting. My first draft is over 140k words, and as I'm editing it now I cut half of the mount written though I rewrite entire scenes often. Try to write twice the amount you want to have for your final product

[Anonymous No.16008728]

>>16008391
Going by the quality of his work, probably not many if any at all.

[Anonymous No.16008730]

>>16008696
Negativity is useful for criticizing a rough draft or completed work. To destroy the weak parts in order to make it better.
You have violated the natural order of writing by introducing negativity too early when there is no works to destroy -- except for the people you are talking to. Then you play the fool and wonder why everyone around you is sad or angry or disgusted at your words. If you speak like a devil, do not be surprised when you are treated as such.

[Anonymous No.16008734]

>>16008730
lol u mad bro? u mad bro? bro u mad? you're never gonna fucking make it with your pansy ass attitude

[Anonymous No.16008747]

>>16008730
Is it really negativity though? It being unlikely to make money with writing is common knowledge. If someone picked it up with that goal, they will get disappointed. It's like going to gym in hopes to get pussy.

[Anonymous No.16008750]

>>16005199
Fuck em. I'll make the cover bland and nondescript so no tards ever pick up my book.

[Anonymous No.16008751]

>>16008730
If being told that authors have very poor chances at getting rich is "a violation of the natural order" and "destruction" to you, then I honestly, wholeheartedly pity you.

[Anonymous No.16008756]

>>16006378
This is the future that awaits me and there's nothing I can do short of surrendering my dignity.

[Anonymous No.16008762]

>>16008730
Not anyone who've you been replying too, but I've found that creative writing courses which center around peer critiques tend to be destructive to the greater novel and writer. Often times the critiques are stabbing what doesn't exist or hasn't played out yet (generally class critiques revolve around a portion of the students work, 20 pages out of a novel well in progress 180-250 pages, and so instead of fundamental issues, often what occurs is a student will attack a plot or relationship in the first 20 pages of a novel for not fully concluding, for being gray, for not being obvious, when it's by design as it's meant to progress through a novel length. I've seen many stories destroyed by peer review (creative writing professors assistant for 3 years at this point) due to terrible critiques and character attacks, a fantasy that didn't fully flesh out the backstory of a character in 30 pages, and so the student then makes the first 30 pages intolerable to a good faith reader. So, there's a real sense of cannibalization between students in CW programs, I put the blame heavily on professors, but also that creative writers are vindictive assholes who only truly care about their own work, and destroying others not in a constructive way, is a way to remove competition.

[Anonymous No.16008766]

What do I do if I can't have everyone beta reading my novel because it's the biggest secret known to no soul but me? And because surely none of you guys speak my language, I can't post it in crit threads either.

[Anonymous No.16008771]

>>16008762
Why are pussy zoomer so anti criticism. This is literally the reason why one anyone's brother wrote a 200k words dragon smut and thought it's a masterpiece

[Anonymous No.16008784]

>>16008771
You missed the point, it's not valubale criticism. It's nineteen year olds cannibalizing each other and seemingly, purposefully, sabotaging each other's work.

[Anonymous No.16008787]

>>16008766
>a
Time to reveal the secret … although going from there to actually finding useful beta readers is still a pain.
>b
Translate bits of it.
>c
Let it rest, work on another project, ideal finish it, and then go back.

[Anonymous No.16008788]

>>16008766
You must have writing forums in your own language, right?

[Anonymous No.16008799]

>>16008784
Pretty sure you're being baited

[Anonymous No.16008820]

>>16008788
I'm living in a country where the Alchemist is held as the pinnacle of literature. Writing forum here is full of teenage girls and their trashy romance novels, even YA tier books are a rare sight.
>>16008787
All of them are valid options. Thanks anon. Though

>a
What worse is the only person I know who reads is a non-fiction only reader, who doesn't even hide the fact that he reads only to appear smart. Actually, the same can be applied to most of my countrymen.
>c
I don't trust myself enough
>b
What part should I translate? The opening paragraph? or randomly anywhere in the middle? I doubt a small excerpt can convey fully the theme and feels intented for this novel

[Anonymous No.16008837]

>>16005704
>Deep analysis of even one novel or short story is more helpful than reading through twenty books on writing, story structure, outlining etc.
Preach brother.
That said, it doesn't hurt to know a bit about story structure. But I think this comes later, once you have a few texts under your belt.

[Anonymous No.16008858]

>>16006420
On Linux you can also use PyRoom. It's minimalist-comfy, great for writing on the fly.

[Anonymous No.16008867]

>>16008499
You're still the one writing, your view of the world will leak out anyway.

[Anonymous No.16008869]

>>16005432
Yeah, I'm not particularly concerned with money so much as the vanity of having physical copies of your book out there. Perhaps I can vanity-publish a few copies and have the general readership access it through a PDF or something.

[Anonymous No.16008951]

>>16008869
Self-publishing is what I'll have to do probably, but my reasons are more /pol/ than luck.

I've begun work on a fantasy series about occult bloodline wars that have driven human history since pretty much forever. I'll have to self-publish this or subscribestar my way through it if it's ever to see the light of day. Not much else can be done when one takes the radical stance that evil power-mongers created such bad things as, say, communism.

My thing is that real-life elements have to be, well, real. Also authentic. For example, characters to be real life figures. How else can I redpill the mob? So gather round dear erudites and toss me opinions about people on whose behalf I might be sued by totally really fictional not!satanists.

George Cecil Jones (1873 -1960) - official info says he was a British chemist, occultist, one time member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and co-founder of the magical order A∴A∴ He sounds like a potential alchemist who cucked, considering his entourage.

Robert Cochrane (26 January 1931 – 3 July 1966), who was born as Roy Bowers, was an English occultist who founded the tradition of Pagan Witchcraft known as Cochrane's Craft. Due to his insistence that he was a "witch", I'm thinking he might have been an evil tranny. May or may not provide a good source of noodle incidents, so-called. On the bad guy side.

William Breeze - supposedly the current international leader of Ordo Templi Orientis and in this capacity is a leading editor of the occult works of Aleister Crowley. I'm thinking he might be either a fraud, or part of the US UFO scene. Whatever that means.

William G. Gray (1913–1992) - said to be a ceremonial magician, Hermetic Qabalist and writer, who published widely on the subject of western esotericism and the occult. I'm thinking he might be one of the hoodwinked freemasons, or a sellout considering the "qabalist" thing.

John Todd of the Collins Bloodline - "primary source for many Chick Publications works against Dungeons & Dragons, Catholicism, Neopaganism, and Christian rock". Considering that this basically makes him the daddy of religious moral panics, though, I'm thinking he might actually be a fraud or controlled opposition.

And finally (for now)...

Albert Pike - Officially a American Patriot & Christain Gentleman . In reality, he seems to have been grandaddy of the KKK, a general of an Arkansas Contingency, and a 33rd degree Scottish Rite Freemason out of Charleston , South Carolina, (the starting state of the Confederacy). Supposedly opened fire on unarmed Union soldiers at the battle of Pea Ridge, was the father of globalism, and the basically plotted all 3 world wars (1 of which is pending). Depending on what immortality may or may not exist, he could be a major antagonist... but it also feels a bit on the nose to use him. I do want my "real-life" elements to be as real as possible though.

[Anonymous No.16009000]

>>16008708
crab

[Anonymous No.16009001]

>>16008951
>I've begun work on a fantasy series about occult bloodline wars that have driven human history since pretty much forever
I know you're not really pitching your story but it did make me think of how a lot of people in these threads seem to think that pitching your story means expositing what the overarching plot is instead of, well, pitching your story with the human element that hooks the common reader/publishers who want to hook the common reader's wallet

[Anonymous No.16009004]

>>16008951
This is such a boring idea. If you want to expose occult secret societies then write nonfiction. If you want to make a some occult satanist dark fantasy thing then just use reality as a very loose basis and make shit up yourself. No one is going to be "redpilled" by occultist conspiracy history thinly veiled as YA fantasy.

[Anonymous No.16009024]

>>16008951
Just publish as RPF on AO3

[Anonymous No.16009060]

>>16008820
>Actually, the same can be applied to most of my countrymen.
Which makes him at least a decent study case to how the average potential reader would potentially react.
>I don't trust myself enough
You picked a "field" where some of it is essential, mate. It's a journey, and if you clearly have the capability to discern that Alchemist is mundane or trashy teen girl romance novels are trashy; you can further hone it to critique your own work. The biggest obstacle tends to be emotional investment, hence having another work (or even an earlier draft) can give the distance necessary.
>What part should I translate? The opening paragraph?
Seems like the most "honest" way to go about it, since that's how potential readers will experience your work. If the opening isn't compelling enough, how many will even get to the middle?
Although it can be helpful just to get feedback on whether scene X does create the intended feel Y.

Also maybe it's a controversial opinion, but I'd say it takes only a page or two to tell whether an author is competent or not. And if they are, it's likely to show through the complete work, even if there are obvious variances in quality and between execution of different aspects. Try it yourself. Pick up a novel you consider to be well written and read a random page.

[Anonymous No.16009069]

>>16009001
It's not even limited to such threads and seems mostly an issue with fantasy fags (often inspired by vidya too), who are too focused on pushing their world and their ideas but forget to give others a reason to care.

[Anonymous No.16009076]

>>16008951
I recommend that you play the game "The Council", it probably seems like a fairly mediocre telltale-type adventure game to normies but to people who are aware of freemasonry, Saturn-worship, Jews, etc, it is a very good game.

[Anonymous No.16009119]

>>16009004
>t. occult conspirator

[Anonymous No.16009150]

>>16008951
> occult bloodline wars that have driven human history since pretty much forever.
So celestial dragons in One Piece? It's not even a /pol/ idea but pretty common and popular before pointing finger at real groups.

>How else can I redpill the mob?
Definitely not by such a simplistic argument. "ZE JUICE ARE AT FAULT FOR EVERYTHING" is a pretty common trope. You are not going to win anyone for the cause if all you have to offer is "Look, the juice are really at fault for everything". And if you're being too subtle about it, you're going to lose your main audience too.

You'd be probably better off trying to tell a compelling story and then use your fame and trust to push /pol/ propaganda.

[Anonymous No.16009156]

>>16008951
Based. I will buy if you publish. Fuck jews, good goys and jannies
>>16009076
Thanks, I will check it out

[Anonymous No.16009251]

>>16009150
Wait, hold on, isn't there even one guy on that list that isn't a jew?

[Anonymous No.16009278]

>>16009060
Thanks much for the reply anon. Until I can work up the courage to show someone my work I will try translating the first few paragraphs and post it on here

[Anonymous No.16009676]

>>16007450

Thanks for giving it a shot. No sex. You're not supposed to like her, you're supposed to empathize with him. She's a stand-in.

[Anonymous No.16009739]

I’ve read most of the “how to write” standards, everything from Strunk and White to Gardner to Bell to Stern. And I found a cheap copy of pic related the other day. It’s probably the most immediately helpful book (other than the Playwright’s Guidebook, which is still the best writing book for any narrative genre imo) I’ve read in a long time.

For more theoretical stuff, Donald Barthelme’s Not Knowing is still my go to for thinking “within” the process.

[Anonymous No.16009970]

>>16009739
Can you elaborate on this? Why do you think its so helpful? I've also read all the books you've mentioned and of those I think Gardner and Egri's books are the must useful. I'm hesitant to pick up another because of diminishing returns.

[Anonymous No.16010036]

>>16008109
You're already doing it by virtue of posting in imageboards.

[Anonymous No.16010093]

>>16008366

Back in the day he used to write about 5k words a day.

Personally, I have an issue with this. If you read a lot of his older stuff, he has tons of filler quality material that really should have been just edited out, and I tend to think maybe stevie should have just taken a break that day.

Personally I write like 1k-2k a day, and not even every day of the week, and I'm on my 6th novel right now.

You can't keep up writing forever, it's a pretty strenuous mental exercise, and after a while you'll just by typing away and your brain is so cooked you don't even realize where you're laying down is incoherent garbage that you're just going to have to delete,or heavily edit anyway.

[Anonymous No.16010163]

>>16008333
For a rushed piece this is pretty great anon, I enjoyed the premise so much that it kept me going and made me finish in spite of the prose (not that it was bad). I think your strength may lie in creating narratives rather than it telling the story itself. Nothing wrong if that, even, we have a lack of it today, in fact. Only the ending felt a bit dull and undermined the great concept you had to begin with but endings are always the hardest part to fashion, so well done. Keep writing anon.

[Anonymous No.16010202]

I'm thinking of doing a little experiment and seeing how much I can write from the time it takes the sun to rise up again after it has set. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to get out like a proper little novella or summat in just a night. I've come up with like the very basic premise for what I want to write about but other than that I've got no idea and I'll probably just try come up with shit as I go and just see what happens and that.

[Anonymous No.16010247]

>>16009739
are these how to write books actually useful?

[Anonymous No.16010277]

>>16010247

Not really. Pretty much any of them I've picked up have basically just said stuff that should be common sense to anybody with an ounce of talent at it. The most helpful tip I got out of any of them was: avoid using adverbs, it's much better to just spend a few words and actually describe what's going on, from On Writing. And, that's really advice you could have gotten from most anywhere, or even figured out on your own.

The only way you'll ever be a successful writer is if you figure out your own style, that's really what people want when they pick up a book, something different, something uniquely you, and they only way to do that is to, well, figure out your own fucking style.

[Anonymous No.16010299]

>>16006239
You shouldn't be this indecisive. 12 seems like far too much, anon. You'll be diluting the story.

[Anonymous No.16010362]

>>16008333
>Ezekiel Hastings was his name, and trapping was his game.

I stopped reading after this sentence.

[Anonymous No.16010370]

>>16008348
Yes sir.
>>16010163
My original idea for the actual story was a group of convicts being transported by bus escaping. The story would follow the work of the police as they hunt them, and bit by bit we learn how the escape was orchestrated and how among these prisoners there are two men with a grudge. The other is a Nasser, the other a highly religious guy with ties to the cartel. The religious guy would believe Nasser to be in a covenant with the devil and his friends would be tearing up the countryside hunting him, while the Nasser family would be helping their man evade the manhunt. The story of the gun would be something that the Nassers would 100% believe to be true, the cops would think it was bullshit and the cartel guy would also believe it, but his men maybe wouldn't. This story was a random episode picked from the history of the gun and even then it was basically just a summary. I feel like shit for having put out something this bad, so thanks for the kind words

[Anonymous No.16010384]

Here's a draft from my short comical novel

https://pastebin.com/crtNT3L8

[Anonymous No.16010396]

>>16010362
Name a better opening line, you can't.

[Anonymous No.16010417]

>>16010384
You repeated if twice in the second sentence. Then on line 17 you have a period followed by a comma.
At any rate it's funny and I want to read more about the Horse Beating Society.

[Anonymous No.16010433]

I'm wanting to write a story about a communist revolution on some island. Do y'all have any recommendations on fiction and non-fiction books on communism and its different facets both in a positive and negative light? I dont really trust Google or the kids at Barnes & Noble to not be biased

[Anonymous No.16010451]

>>16010433
Hemingway's For Whom the Bell Tolls has a pretty decent description of how socialists treat people when they're in a position of power over them (poorly) while at the same time describing the events from the viewpoint of said socialists.
Solzhenitsyn's Gulag archipelago is a must-read of course.

[Anonymous No.16010485]

>>16010396
I think it's fine for 40 minutes worth of time.

[Anonymous No.16010527]

>>16010417
Yes, it´s very roughly written.

[Anonymous No.16010528]

>>16010433
Just join your local commie party, get integrated, swallow and assimilate all propaganda and, after gaining their trust, get funding for your subversive novel that serves to push forward whatever ideas and ideals the Party wants to ram down the masses' throats, and become one of the many proxy "intellectuals" bankrolled by the KGB. Not a bad way to make a living desu, if you lack any sort of morals that is. If you wish to do the contrary, get ready for your inevitable ostracism and defamation by that same class of people you had the opportunity to become. There is no middle ground, anon.

[Anonymous No.16010533]

>>16010528
>KGB
They haven't called it that in years

[Anonymous No.16010538]

>>16010362
t. Hates joy

[Anonymous No.16010571]

>>16005171

Why not take creative writing classes in college instead of making these threads?

[Anonymous No.16010601]

>>16005354
Do you think that vaginas secrete bad-writer hormones

[Anonymous No.16010612]

>>16010571
Becomes elitist intellectuals in their ivory towers can suck it. Power to the people, for the people, by the people!

[Anonymous No.16010639]

>>16010571
Then I have to actually show others my work instead of posting it anonymously over the internet

[Anonymous No.16010679]

>>16010528
I'd love to see the indoctrination in person, anon, but living in rural Kentucky comes with the benefit of shooting communists instead of conversing with them, and I don't want to move to that shithole of a city known as Louisville

[Anonymous No.16010728]

>>16010571
Formal education and creative endeavours don't mix IMO. Besides, aren't the classes filled by white middle class women and neckbeards whose main goal it is "to publish a novel"?

>>16010639
>he actually posts his work

[Anonymous No.16010737]

>>16009970
Koch is kind of a no bullshitter. He ran Columbia's MFA program for several years (decades if I'm not mistaken), and, sure, he regurgitates a lot of what Gardner would say, but idk I found Gardner shied away from dealing with the sentence by sentence, detail by detail sort of approach Koch covers. He brackets off different approaches, and while the constant quoting of authors sometimes gets annoying, ultimately, I find the aggregate to be helpful. if I had to only keep one volume, at this point, it would be this one. Koch takes the intuitiveness of writing seriously and tries to navigate it on those terms, which is something you usually only get hints of in a hand-waiving-dismissal sort of way or in a really abstract way like Bartheleme.

>>16010247
Yes and no. Yes if you are in a place where you've exhausted the typical internet resources (Paris Review interviews, /lit/, YouTube interviews/lectures) and still need inspiration, prodding, and some insightful/rejuvenating ways of approaching craft. Ultimately, I think the latter is the most important function here: thinking about writing fiction IN THOSE TERMS is one step closer to getting comfortable with writing fiction, period. You have to sort through the elements of craft, and while it won't be from that vantage point perspective of explicitly saying "Hey, I need to use X plot approach here and Y narrativizing function there," at least sorting out the concepts prior to the actual act will allow you to avoid pitfalls and keep you semiaware of some of the tricks you may or may not be pulling. If not anything, they offer a chance at not deluding yourself on how much there has been done and how much there is to be done.

No if you're genuinely a talented, intuitive person; you intake and regurgitate narratives w/o pausing to understand their inner mechanisms, and somehow they truly do hold up to critical scrutiny; you really find more inspiration in life and whatever language you create than you do in books. But for 99.9% of writers (and, I'd venture to say, EVERYONE who is visiting /lit/ to discuss these things) this is not the case, so you may as well accept that you're not a Beefheart or a Borges or a Van Gogh or a whoever and just get down to it. I think DFW is a beautiful example of this; at some point he realized he really wasn't that smart, despite all his pretentiousness, and he had to learn how to write good fiction. Even as a fully fledged writer he would check out how-to write books simply on the off chance they had something more to offer him.

[Anonymous No.16010749]

>>16010277
>figure out your own style
That is 1/10th of the situation, and figuring out your own style is probably the most radical artistic ideal achievable. This is why analogies to the visual arts are absolutely crucial: look through the catalog of an artist's work and see how much they struggled and writhed to find any presentable visual language let alone their own. We're talking thousands of works.

[Anonymous No.16010760]

>>16010571
Most often populated by D-tier writers, C-tier teachers, and, above all, careerists who settled early in their lives. Do you think James fucking Joyce would teach a writing class, let alone take one?

[Anonymous No.16010778]

Let's say I'm a massive faggot who has trouble reading romanceless fantasy/scifi unless the plot or characters hook me. Should I indulge my shit taste and write romance, or consider my trash the former two?

There is still money in romance, right?

[Anonymous No.16010805]

>>16010760
How did Joyce learn to write anyway? Or is the whole point that he didn't and just made up his own thing?

[Anonymous No.16010807]

>>16010778
Write what you like to read and worry about selling it later. Most likely you won't see shit, because most writers don't, no matter the work or genre.

[Anonymous No.16010809]

>>16010778
It is beyond a doubt the most profitable genre to self-publish in, so yes

[Anonymous No.16010814]

>>16010778
Write romance but also transcend your genre, push it beyond its limits.

[Anonymous No.16010817]

>>16005171
What is this image attempting to convey? Writing takes something out of you? Writing completes a part of you that is missing? Is this guy going to tape that paper to his shirt to complete the pattern?

[Anonymous No.16010819]

>>16010805
He read books and he wrote.

[Anonymous No.16010826]

>>16010805
>Joyce enrolled at the recently established University College Dublin (UCD) in 1898, studying English, French and Italian. He became active in theatrical and literary circles in the city.
Sounds like your average English major who was in a faggy bookclub.

[Anonymous No.16010828]

>>16010737
Alright I guess I'll take your word for it and check it out. Anything in particular you found insightful that I should pay close attention to?

[Anonymous No.16011088]

>>16010571
>Why not take creative writing classes in college instead of making these threads?

Can you step in a creative class to listen for two minutes, fuck off, and come back in six hours to hear a summary of the rest, without consequences or losing anything? I don't think so, or else there's something really fishy going on.

[Anonymous No.16011097]

>>16010817
Some anon made that edit in the first thread so maybe he will reply

[Anonymous No.16011216]

>>16010817
I assumed it was about him expressing himself.

[Anonymous No.16011317]

>>16010299
No no, there are 12 for a reason. I gave them backstories and personalities to set them each apart. I like having 12 desu. I rarely have all of them in the same scene together, though. Usually 1-5 at a time.

[Anonymous No.16011425]

>>16011216
Makes sense. Was only half joking with the post. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.16011877]

>>16010805
jesuit education

[Anonymous No.16012369]

>>16005171
>Start to write for literature contest.
>For one million Chilean Pesos: Writing a poem about the concept of legacy and trascendence.
>One of the judges is Raul Zurita. A Neruda wannabe.
>Write about the falsehood of trascendence as a concept.
>Humanity will go extinct and the sun will explode.
>And with the cleansing by fire of human history, Zurita will finally be equal to Shakespeare.
>Ponder that maybe I'm sending ironic texts as a form of self boycott because I don't believe I can win.
>Argue for the literary values of iconoclasty and the metatextual nature of my poem.

I've been trying my hand on becoming a prize writer. There's at least two contests a month and even if I recognize my suckyness it can be a good writing experience.
While I don't consider my texts to be improving after two months doing this, I consider that literary gains take years to build up.
>Other part of me considers that writing doesn't improve your writing, that only reading does.

[Anonymous No.16012496]

Every time I've sit down to write or edit today I've felt the sudden compulsion to take a massive shit. Let me work, God in heaven.

[Anonymous No.16012623]

>>16012496
Take a phone with you and keep writing on the shitter.

[Anonymous No.16012672]

>>16010571
I took one once and it was pretty awful. I'm not saying my stories were good either because they sucked but every week I had to read the vilest trash that college student minds could come up with. There was one black girl who literally just wrote autobiographical stories about her sex life, the incel who wrote about his waifu getting raped, overwrought game of thrones rip offs, awful attempts at relationship drama, revenge fantasies against evil white colonialists, I can't do justice to how terrible it was. I guess it was a learning experience but never again.

[Anonymous No.16012753]

>>16012369
>Other part of me considers that writing doesn't improve your writing, that only reading does.
But /lit/ tells me that you have to write from sun up to sundown 24/7 for 10 years before seeing one iota of improvement

[Anonymous No.16012814]

>>16012753
I will never write good enough for lit standards; Which are more or less my standards.
I consider that as the heirs of thousands of years of culture, if you're not Borges levels of cultured your opinion doesn't hold any relevance.
I just want to write a text good enough to deserve one millon Chilean Pesos.
Lower standards for me that renounced any literary legacy worthy of /lit/ attention.
>That ennui after you base your literary worth on the opinions of a indonesian semiology forum.

[Anonymous No.16012894]

>>16010571
Student's don't actually know how to critique, is the actual answer.

[Anonymous No.16012922]

>>16010760
I don't think James Joyce would've been on 4chan.org/lit, trying to flaunt his pretentious prose and pretending he's better than all the "normies".

[Anonymous No.16012945]

>>16005171
So I’m trying to come up with a title for my story, which is about a magical forest that holds many secrets. I already have titles for the individual books, but it was only recently that I came up with the main title for the series.

Main title: the lands beyond here
Book 1: the forest and the mountain
Book 2: amidst wooden giants
Book 3: cities of grass

There will be more books than just 3, but those are the ones that have titles to them. Do you think they’re any good, or should I keep thinking?

[Anonymous No.16012970]

>>16012945
Cities of Grass is the only one that doesn't sound stupid and it's still pretty generic

[Anonymous No.16012977]

>>16012970
Oof, okay. Guess I’ll keep thinking about it, thank you.

[Anonymous No.16012981]

>>16012945
>>16012970
amidst wooden giants is the most interesting one, cities of grass can mean anything, amidst wooden giants brings mystery, hints the audience at what they should expect, has a fantasy element to it, etc

[Anonymous No.16012991]

>>16012981
To me the Amidst sounds kind of awkward, otherwise I agree

[Anonymous No.16013010]

>>16012981
The title is directly referring to the characters trek through this forest. This is by far the most developed in terms of plot out of either of the books I have titles for, so maybe that’s why the title is so good. The first book is about a man without legs who wants to explore that same forest, and struggling with doing so. The third book is about what lies beyond the forest, which is a great grassy plain that holds many great cities and towns.

[Anonymous No.16013017]

>>16012977
your titles should be based on the relation of it to your book, and your book to your audience, you shouldn't write or name anything in your novel based on what someone on /lit/ thinks, most people here are very disconnected to the novel environment

[Anonymous No.16013019]

>>16012991
What about “below the wooden giants”? It gives a sense of size to the characters in comparison to the trees and the forest giants that live there? Idk, just spitballing.

[Anonymous No.16013037]

>>16013019
being below giants is already a given

[Anonymous No.16013050]

>>16013037
Yeah, but these are normies we’re talking about. They might not get it. Hmm. Maybe “the forest and her giants”? But that would sound too similar to the first book in the series, so I would have to change that too. Hmmmm

[Anonymous No.16013059]

>>16012945
>the lands beyond here
Generic but functional.
>the forest and the mountain
No.
>amidst wooden giants
Kinda clumsy but not super horrible.
>cities of grass
Probably the best but doesn't seem to fit.

I'd keep looking. And focus more on the characters and plot developments, and then use a title that remotely relates to that.

[Anonymous No.16013061]

>>16013019
you have to keep in mind that the acceptance of the novel titles of 2 is based on the introduction to it in the 1st, and the 3rd to the 2nd, so you have to place yourself in someone's shoes who has just completed "the forest and the mountains" and think about how they would feel about "amidst wooden giants" I think that "the forest and the mountain" is almost too generic, as I can see almost every author and every genre being able to have that title

[Anonymous No.16013069]

>>16013059
go on amazon under "fantasy" and you see hundreds of titles in the vein of "cities of grass" - imo to OP, you want to have a title that really pulls from a unique thing about your novel that can't just be plastered on a thousand books, so what is unique about your novel, synthesize that into a title

[Anonymous No.16013072]

>>16013061
Aha, so the first title should be in relation to the forest as an outside force, rather than something that is around each character in the second book.

[Anonymous No.16013073]

>>16012945
>Main title: the lands beyond here
Beyond what?
>the forest and the mountain
Why are the forest and the mountain a big deal? They don't sound like a big deal.
>amidst wooden giants
I'd say among wooden giants. I mean, if there's somebody among wooden giants.
>cities of grass
Unless this is about Lilliputians, or some terribly clever metaphor, I'm going to call it plain pretentious.

[Anonymous No.16013089]

>>16013072
yes, you have to see the 2nd title in context of someone who has read the entirety of your first book, and so on, you have to see the first title in context of the uninitiated

[Anonymous No.16013094]

>>16005171
Could an autistic ever writer good fiction that doesn’t feature autism?

[Anonymous No.16013105]

>>16013094
If he has a non-autistic friend to read it and suggest changes, why not.

[Anonymous No.16013107]

>>16013069
>you see hundreds of titles in the vein of "cities of grass"
Because it's ultimately a good idea which can be adjusted to the story. It's not a top title by any means but an unremarkable one still beats something silly. Besides, if it's book 3, OP might have enough fans where it doesn't matter as much either way.

But yeah, I agree with your post.

[Anonymous No.16013116]

>>16013073
>beyond what
So one of the main themes of the story is to go beyond the arbitrary bounds of societal norms. In the books case, these arbitrary bounds come in the form of tensions between the races. In this sense, the characters must look to “the lands beyond here” (here referring to the society in which they currently live in) in order to find a way out of this mess.
>they don’t sound like a big deal
This is why I want to treat the forest in the book as an actual character. Each character in the novel has different opinions on the forest. Some are drawn to it like a good smell, while others are repulsed by it. It once again ties into the themes of looking into what is reality and what is just a farce set up by human culture and the like.
>id say among wooden giants
That does sound like better wording
>I’m going to call it plain pretentious
Yeah, maybe you’re right.

[Anonymous No.16013142]

>>16013089
Hmm, maybe something like “magic within the branches” or “the forest and her magic”

[Anonymous No.16013151]

>>16013142
> “magic within the branches”
I bet there are gay romances that sound less faggy.

[Anonymous No.16013162]

>>16013151
As I’ve said, these are just ideas. I doubt I’m going to come up with anything good today.

[Anonymous No.16013183]

>>16013142
>>16013162
Magic within the branches isn't bad, it's about right for fantasy that sells well. If someone on /lit/ tells you something is "faggy" (don't listen to them) but also, go a top 100 list of best selling fantasy and take a look at the titles.

[Anonymous No.16013184]

>>16013162
Have you tried sketching the covers? It usually helped me with tons of ideas.

[Anonymous No.16013196]

>>16013094
In my opinion, autism is better for screenwriting or poetry than full on novel. Autists have a lot of good, original ideas but lack the skill to articulate it.

[Anonymous No.16013216]

What are the best books or resources if you deliberately want to write a bunch of stereotypical characters? Every book out there stressed the importance of archetype over stereotype but I actually want to write stereotypical characters who do stereotypical things. Pic related.

[Anonymous No.16013226]

>>16013184
I actually have two ideas. One of them is an embroidered pattern of vines and branches and leaves, which form the title and expand to cover the rest of the cover. Another is of something like pic related, where a character is walking down a path with rows of trees on either side of him.

[Anonymous No.16013239]

>>16013216
It should be easy as fuck because stereotypes are simple and rigid

[Anonymous No.16013241]

For those who have written novels/short stories, but also dabbled in screenwriting (or vice versa) how has your experience been transitioning? Do you feel like it's pretty easy to cross over?

[Anonymous No.16013244]

>>16013216
>you deliberately want to write a bunch of stereotypical characters
Do you mean in a sardonic, satirical sense? Or do you plan to play it straight?

[Anonymous No.16013255]

>>16013116
>So one of the main themes of the story is to go beyond the arbitrary bounds of societal norms
You're the only one in the world who knows that. Why not call it "beyond x and y" where x and y are the names of the main races involved, or some general term referring to them all? That way, even your unlucky reader might have a slim shot at solving this thematic puzzle.

>This is why I want to treat the forest in the book as an actual character
Similarly to the first point, if the forest is special, let the reader know it's special. That's the whole main selling point. When I see the word "forest" out of context, I first think about the shithole where my grandparents live and it make shudder in revulsion. Name it like "shape-changing forest" or "thousand-face forest", or give it a made-up name, or whatever. That way you won't leave passers-by fumbling in the dark with their impressions.

[Anonymous No.16013258]

>>16013183
>go a top 100 list of best selling fantasy
>Alpha: A Rough Shifter Romance
>Fear the Sky: The Fear Saga
>Shadow of a Dark Queen: Serpentwar Saga
Is an AI writing the stuff?

[Anonymous No.16013269]

Uhm bros, it seems at this very moment that we've been writing wrong.
See >>16012969

[Anonymous No.16013271]

>>16013258
That's what sells.

[Anonymous No.16013278]

>>16013244
I can see myself doing some satire but I mostly just want to have a grasp of various common stereotypes. But I don't know where to start collecting that information.

[Anonymous No.16013313]

>>16013278
Like those comedy high-school movies, like "not another teen movie". Where you have the Popular kid, the Jock, The nerd etc. They have these roles that pop up in various subcultures. How do I begin to learn more about these stereotypical figures.

[Anonymous No.16013356]

>>16013313
tvtropes

Looks like we're going to need a new thread soon.

[Anonymous No.16013380]

>>16008476
>4chains does have some self-hating women (without a penor).

>be 2020
>it has to be specified whether women have a penis or not.

[Anonymous No.16013387]

>>16013380
Wait for the 2030 update, when it's going to be about the softness of her penis.

[Anonymous No.16013413]

>>16012922
Have you read the brap letters?
filthy fucking normie

[Anonymous No.16013449]

>>16013380
It used to just be that you asked for tits when someone claiming to be a woman appeared. Simpler times.

[Anonymous No.16013462]

>>16013387
>>16013449
I hate this insidious woke culture.

[Anonymous No.16014996]

>>16006626
Was listening to a podcast where they interviewed a book buyer who specialized in non-fiction for a publisher and she said for non-fiction before she even reads your work you have to be some sort of known expert in your field. You might know everything there is to know about eggs, but unless you are a recognized expert she is probably not going to read your book on eggs.