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/lit/ - Literature

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1599094 No.1599094 [Reply] [Original]

I just realized how right-wing and racist Lord of the Rings (movie and the book) is.

You have an all-white cast (which you would also deduce from the book), fighting against evil, and that evil is black people.

Sauron wears all black armor, has black skin, and is pretty much tantamount to 'black=bad', heck even the actor that played Sauron was black.

Then you got the Orcs, filthy, dirty, degenerate black things, of no good merit, going around looting, killing and causing destruction.

And the Elves, white people, surrounded by their aura of light.

It is all too obvious once you notice it. Thoughts /lit/?

>> No.1599258

dwarves=je­ws

look it up

>> No.1599264 [DELETED] 

maybe black people should have thought about that before going to place that make their skin like the blackness in my soul.

>> No.1599262

I really hate it when people make these threads

>Sauron wears all black armor, has black skin, and is pretty much tantamount to 'black=bad', heck even the actor that played Sauron was black.

but at least your trolling is pretty obvious

>> No.1599276

Eh, there's certainly weight to the claim that there are unconscious racial themes in LotR. You can read the book that way. But I don't think that Tolkien was consciously racist and I don't think that reading invalidates the book.

Certainly, the books are remarkably right-wing. They're reactionary and anti-modern, and they're also strongly influenced by Tolkien's conservative Catholicism. Politically and culturally, they're right-wing (as Moorcock points out in Epic Pooh). But they're probably not racist in the sense of advocating racism.

>> No.1599305

>>1599276
But it sure does not fit in today's modern, multicultural world. I think Peter Jackson went too far right when directing it.

>> No.1599321

Black as evil has nothing to do with sub-saharan africans, and goes back in Europe well before they had any contact with them.

But you're right, even if by accident. Far-right groups in continental europe are quite fond of Tolkien. Look up "Camp Hobbit."

>> No.1599337

>>1599094
>You have an all-white cast
Well, what a fucking twist, there in the middle of Europe (or something like that), what were you expecting, an Indian?

>Sauron wears all black armor, has black skin, and is pretty much tantamount to 'black=bad', heck even the actor that played Sauron was black.
I don't remember if I am correct, but I think Sauron was never described in the book. And his armor in the movie is grey.

>Then you got the Orcs, filthy, dirty, degenerate black things, of no good merit, going around looting, killing and causing destruction.
The Orcs are raped Elves and they are all pale, specially in the movie.

>>1599305
Dude, fuck that "multiculturalism" bullshit, I liked stuff better when everything didn't have a token minority.

>> No.1599358

Guys if you wanna make an argument for Tolkien being a racist you are trying too hard.

Just take a look at Middle Earth. The men resisting against Sauron are the Men of the West, described by Tolkien as being light skinned, and the evil men who fell under Sauron's rule are the Men of the East, who Tolkien described as dark skinned.

It's quite simple, in TLOTR, white people are good and black people are evil. But this is no reason to think that Tolkien was racist, much less to stop enjoying the book

>> No.1599370

the battle of light and dark is the battle of good and evil

>> No.1599373

Wormtongue=Jew

It all makes so much sense now

>> No.1599392

"I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence."

J. R. R. Tolkien.

>> No.1599394

Deal with it liberal faggots.

>> No.1599400
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1599400

Problem?

>> No.1599411

They should ban that movie then. How could they allow such racist bs to be in the theaters?

>> No.1599417

Man somebody is trying REALLY HARD to troll up in this thread

Kinda pathetic

>> No.1599428

>>1599358
>white people are good and black people are evil

WTF are you talking about Nazi? Get your fascist white supremacist talk out of here

>> No.1599432

>>1599358
>white people are good and black people are evil
No, in LotR people aren't evil, Sauron is evil, people may be corruptible, but they are not evil. This is the reason why Tolkien never followed up with another story, because he thought that without Sauron there would be no true evil and therefore no conflict.

>> No.1599448

Jesus christ, does everything need a pc seal of approval now?

>> No.1599462

>>1599432
So non-whites are even not people?

>> No.1599479

>>1599462
How did he imply that?

>> No.1599495

>>1599479
you're such a low tier tripfag

>> No.1599498

>>1599094
>I just realized how right-wing and racist Lord of the Rings (movie and the book) is.
Cry some more why don't you? Why not just burn the book while you're at it?

>You have an all-white cast (which you would also deduce from the book), fighting against evil, and that evil is black people.
Actually they're fighting orcs. Not black people. Not to mention there are elves, dwarves, hobbits, ents, and eagles (beings of another race) on the good guys side.

>Then you got the Orcs, filthy, dirty, degenerate black things, of no good merit, going around looting, killing and causing destruction.
So you're basing orcs actions on their skin color? And Tolkien is a racist?

>And the Elves, white people, surrounded by their aura of light.
The elves aren't white. they're elves. They're an entirely different race.
Tolkien wrote the books as if they were some long lost legend of the British isles. Of course there wouldn't be any black folk runnin round.
What the fuck is the matter with a story with only White people in it? Why must every story ever written be multicultural?

>> No.1599503
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1599503

>>1599495
Oh no, you've shattered my very identity to the core with that statement, I will now leave 4chan and commit suicide.

>> No.1599527

i heard an analogy about christians and the retards who screech for political correctness in everything including science

it was that these guiltfags now are like christians then - more or less trying to (and outright winning in many cases) stop anything they want because they say "hurr durr rascism" and it goes away - in the same what christfags would say "durr hurr god" at shit they didnt like which was against their personal beliefs

and outright suppression of science then, like the world for a long time being convinced it's flat when it'd been proven it was motherfuking round is starting to happen again in a small way

it's like this shit over races being different (yes - im going there) because there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution, should prove to have evolved identically - and now these guilt ridden retards or pc police or whatever you want to call them, are acting like the church did then towards shit which offends them now - it's science assbags - it's not about offending or not - it's finding out about our world and if we dont like it, well we didnt make it that way and it sucks if you are offended

i as an asian, enjoyed being told that (on average at least) my race's cognitive ability is higher then the other ones - however my penis is 5 and a half inches long and unlike the average i suck at starcraft

(ps: why's a negro's defense for everything - him yelling about his penis?)

>> No.1599592

Liberals believe in stupid things (like racial equality) which are unsupported and even directly contradicted by empirical evidence.

Liberals believe these things for no other reason than the positive emotions associated with such a belief. Just like a fear of death makes Christians believe in eternal life, fear of inequality makes Liberals believe in racial egalitarianism.

Liberals are hostile towards nonbelievers. Just like Muslims will punish you for insulting the prophet Muhammad, Liberals imprison people for "hate speech" if they dare to criticize or express skepticism towards Liberal dogma.

There's no way around the fact that Liberalism is just a modern religion. Religion is not dying off, people are simply migrating to new religions. Just like the change from polytheism to monotheism thousands of years ago.

>> No.1599603

>>1599503

You actually do suck though :(

As for this thread I remember being convinced that Tolkein was a racist and telling everyone I knew in grade six about it. Had something to do with all the easterners who were Saurons holmies being described as dark skinned, or something like that.

>> No.1599614

Middle Earth = Britain. Of course they're all white. I don't get any sense of it being right wing. In fact, I get very little political intention from it at all.
He was attempting to create English mythology (the Norse creatures, the more rational civilisation of the English). There were odd bits and bobs relating to reality, but if anything it would've been angled against the French and not black people. Rohan represented the English cavalry which was not present in 1066 for example.

>> No.1599633

Fact is people, the politically correct agenda has gone too far. Its now almost a crime to be proud of your ancestory if you are white. Everything is good, so long as you commit to the PC party line and dont question things.

Its almost reached critical mass, Western Civilization hangs in the balance.

>> No.1599837

Have you been exposed to information which proves liberal ideology wrong? Here's what to do:

1. Make a baseless claim that the information is somehow flawed, biased, or false. Be sure not to provide any specifics or else they will just come back with more facts which prove you wrong.

2. ???

3. LIBERALISM IS STILL TRUE! KEEP HAVING FAITH!

>> No.1599843

>>1599633
>>1599837
what the fuck does this have to do with anything besides you trolling

>> No.1599851

>>1599614
I think that it is a deeply right-wing book, in many ways. That doesn't make it bad. It is deeply reactionary - I mean anti-modern - it seems to treasure this kind of nostalgic romantic vision of the past, and the view of nature as opposed to machines (eg Scouring of the Shire) is deeply anti-modern/anti-progress. Progress is essentially an unstoppable force which destroys a world depicted in a romantic/nostalgic way, and that's the essence of a lot of old-school conservatism. Also, it's arguably an aristocratic book, and it's certainly a book animated by Tolkien's rather traditional Catholicism.

In attitude and ton the book is deeply connected to a certain kind of English romantic conservatism. This is even seen in the importance of myth to the books which is not at all outside conservatism (see eg Chesterton's Ballad of the White Horse). the other interesting characteristic of LotR to me is the extent to which it's influenced by WWI, and this can go back to conservatism as well - viewing the books as a conservative re-imagining of and reaction to WWI.

>> No.1599853

>>1599851
attitude and tone

mea culpa

>> No.1599869

Sarumon the WHITE is the actual physical bad guy in the series and the one acting out the evil deeds of sauron's will. You could easily draw that white people are at the root of all evil in the world. But you'd still be fucking stupid for thinking it was all made for some imagined racist message

>> No.1599898

Dark and light are qualities that invoke natural positive/negative responses in the human brain. /lit/ should know that a dark forest and the luminescent sun have symbolic connotations. Tolkien knew this. It's not political or cultural it's human nature and it sucks to be black for a reason.

>> No.1600011
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1600011

>> No.1600028

There's so much of our racist prejudices being projected in order to make the racist tone of the books obvious that it's kind of sad.

>> No.1600227

>>1600028
Whats sad? Liberals and race-mixers push their ideology and books by the dozen. Whats so bad if 1 trilogy does not adhere to the acceptable hyper-PC requirements?

>> No.1600238

>>1600227
Sad that people can't see beyond their own noses.

Also, don't be hating on blacks fucking white women yo, you just jelly.

>> No.1600239

>>1600227
God could you knock off this LIBERALS ARE TERRIBLE PROUD RACIALISTS UNITE stuff? I'm not even objecting because of the content of your views it's just kind of pathetic that you keep spamming them ITT it's desperate.

>> No.1600264

>>1600239
Yeah, they don't realize that the problem arises from their need to "preach the word" in contexts where nobody ever asked for it.

>> No.1600274

>>1600264
the MSM is preaching 24/7, its only fair we do a little bit too

>> No.1600275

The treatment of undead was also highly unsympathetic

>> No.1600278

>>1600275
The undead? More like LIBERALS! LIBERAL ZOMBIES! I HATE EM, JUST HATE EM!

>> No.1600279

Can't it just be a book about little hobbitezes?

>> No.1600284

>>1600274
Yeah, but not here. The only result of you preaching here is people thinking you're a retard. Go preach somewhere else. Onward, Christian Soldier.

>> No.1600299

One thing that I don't understand is the people analyzing the book as both racist and as a reflection of WW2 at the same time. I mean, weren't England's enemies aryan blonds? Blacks didn't play a role in WW2 at all (apart from the black batallions in the US army, which were seggregated by the way).

And isn't Aragorn described as a sandnigger? Or was he just tanned?

>> No.1600306
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1600306

>>1600284
>implying im a christian
>implying im religious

lolnope

>> No.1600307

ITT: herp, derp and crass, vulgar Americans who don't understand that LotR's bigotry is actually class prejudice

>> No.1600396

>>1600307
>implying everyone here isnt american.

Sure is anti-American white guilt in here

>> No.1600408

>mfw some failtroll makes 20-30 posts in his own thread trying to get things going

I pity someone with so much time on his hands.

>> No.1600521

>>1600408
oh well :/

bumping anyway

>> No.1602132
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1602132

>> No.1602161

That's stupid, OP. You're stupid. Orcs are actually described as being pale in the Hobbit, which precedes LOTR. And Sauron is described as being fair to the eyes in his earlier appearances.

J.R.R. was racist, though. Not for the reasons you describe, but because he portrayed a bucolic, foreigner-free, peasant England as being glorious. Shire, anybody?

It's also basically Nordic Race Fanfiction seeing as he ripped a lot of themes straight from Old English Heroic Epics like Beowulf, Old Norse Poems like the Poetic Eddas by Snorri Sturluson, and general Germanic Mythology.

For example...

>Poetic Edda/Völuspá II

12. Bifur, Bafur,
Bumbur, Nori,
An and Onar,
Ai, Miodvitnir,
Thrar and Thrainn,
Thror, Litr and Vitr,
Nyr and Nyradr,
now have I warriors,
Reginn and Radsvidr,
rightly mention.

Recognize a few of those names? You've probably read the Hobbit if you have.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Bombur

Bombur, especially, who is my homeboi. Shit, Bifur, Bafur, AND Bombur are my homies. They're my crew.

>> No.1602169

>>1602161
>J.R.R. was racist, though. Not for the reasons you describe, but because he portrayed a bucolic, foreigner-free, peasant England as being glorious. Shire, anybody?

I absolutely agree with your characterization of the series but disagree that it's racist. Reactionary, yes; indicative of an extremely romantic nostalgic conservatism, yes; in a tradition of small-England Tory cavalier worldviews, yes. But I don't think that alone situates it as racist.

>> No.1602177

>>1602169

They 'disappeared' when Big People came. Evidently, they -do not- wish to interact with other races. I feel like that's racist, but I'm not saying that in a negative way. It indicates a desire to maintain racial superiority over an area, which is necessary.

>> No.1602202

>>1602177
I would read that not as racial but in the same connection as the disappearance of the elves: not as racist but as anti-modern. Both of those are basically about the disappearance of magic and the transformation from Middle Earth, the age of heroes and myths and legends etc, into basically the modern world. And I think that has to be read as standing in for a concern about the rapid changes in the world and the advent of industrialization etc. It's romantic conservative yearning for a lost past. Note the Scouring of the Shire in which there's a literal opposition between machinery and modern industrial methods on the one hand and classical, English country values on the other. Note also the link between the disappearance of magic and the fall of man in the Catholic sense (symbolized more by the disappearance of Numenor but the links between Numenor and the establishment of Gondor are at least interesting). Note finally that the group displacing the hobbits is men - I think you'd have to be hard pressed to read Hobbits as English and men as some kind of intruding colonial other.

But I respect your opinion & look forward to your response.

>> No.1602235

>>1602202

> Note the Scouring of the Shire in which there's a literal opposition between machinery and modern industrial methods on the one hand and classical, English country values on the other.

Personally, I feel like you're highlighting Tolkien's racism by saying this. Big People, Sharkey[Saruman], etc, were bringing machinery into the Shire, bringing along with them, it is implied, corruption.
The rivers run slow, there is garbage everywhere, the skies are grey all the time. The moral seems to be that if you let those dang old foreigners in, everything will go to hell. It's not just simply racism, you could say it smacks of xenophobia.

I think that's why Peter Jackson left that out, because if modern audiences had seen that, they would have given it markedly lower reviews.

>> No.1602244

>>1602235
I would say nationalism, not racism or xenophobia. To a certain extent there's a xenophobic element to any kind of strong nationalism, but I think the emphasis in Tolkien is on the nationalism and the anti-modernity and not on the xenophobia. I think the important factor in the Scouring is the machines, not the fact that it's outsiders what bring them - and again, it's men and wizards who do bring them.

Also, how you are defining racism here? I'm operating on the definition of racism as a belief in the importance of racial categories and the superiority of one race over another; I think another useful concept is prejudice, the dislike of someone on the basis of their race.

>> No.1602250

to be filed in slave rhetoric along with 'minority', 'rights', 'multiculturalism', 'elitism', etc etc

never change, inferiors

>> No.1602261

alright i gotta go yall, keep it real arc, still think reading LOTR in terms of race is mistaken & it's basically a reactionary conservative monarchic nationalistic romantic nostalgic narrative. you can read any of those things as racist but i don't think it's of the essence, as it were. but you make a good argument. later yall.

>> No.1602279

It wasn't even tastefully done, like the Tale of Scrootie McBoogerballs

>> No.1603613

I -think- that dumb racist niggers and idiot liberal twits who have never come out of suburbia to interact with ghetto niggers are always looking for racism in anything and everything they can find. Go fuck yourself.