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Anonymous Thu Jul 16 23:53:32 2020 No.15883322 [DELETED]

[Reply] [Original]

Free will and Determinism are compatible.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 16 23:54:52 2020 No.15883333 >>15883322 If determinism is causal closure of the physical, I don't see how.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:01:48 2020 No.15883385 >>15883322 Forgot. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:02:25 2020 No.15883390 File: 15 KB, 220x278, Hegel_by_Schlesinger.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15883322 they aren't just compatible they are the same

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:09:21 2020 No.15883442 >>15883322 We have free will insofar as God allows us to act, like water flowing in a container but does not penetrate the boundaries of the container.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:12:42 2020 No.15883474 >>15883333 thingness in the physical world is a projection of the sociobiological, not a real attribute of the universe; without free-will there are no units in the world, including ourselves. As in: if determinism is real nothing exists.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:15:50 2020 No.15883493 File: 1.96 MB, 1600x900, kevin dillon.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15883322 >Free will and Determinism are compatible.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:16:59 2020 No.15883499 >>15883442 >I pick cotton by choice!

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:17:11 2020 No.15883502 >>15883474 Nah.

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:21:00 2020 No.15883530

I'm not really well enough read on the philosophy of it.
I studied the math of neural networks and artificial intelligence.

The brain is assuredly non-deterministic, in so far as it is informed by a mixture of sensory input and learning mechanics that are the product of chaos.

While you are somewhat predictable, you are not wholly predictable.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:23:24 2020 No.15883550 Predictable and predetermined are two different things. Things can be caused by free will or randomness, but God still can foresee them.

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:31:18 2020 No.15883600

If you use will in his common understood form then no. If you use will in its actual meaning yes.

But we dont live in an "deterministic" universe. But because of the quantity of random fluctuations, it is completely irrelevant. A very familiar effect starts to emerge who can be compared with entropy and negentropy in physics.

The density of random occurrences, becomes so high that they are not longer with in mathematical range. This maybe creates the illusion that your choice matters, because there are random elements to our universe. But it doesnt, because the not linear envelopment in time cant be calculated not even if you are a god. I means your choice gets nullified by the shire quantity of information in each point in the universe.

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:35:00 2020 No.15883624

>>15883530
>While you are somewhat predictable, you are not wholly predictable.
There's no way to collect information on all your influences, and the processing power needed to assemble all of those into an effect is outrageous, but if possible you would be 100% predictable.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:38:40 2020 No.15883643 >>15883624 No, even the act of non-deterministically computing the neural network would be subject to chaos at and in-between every layer.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:40:52 2020 No.15883656 >>15883643 The chaos is not truly non-deterministic we just aren't aware of the causes yet.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:41:08 2020 No.15883658 >>15883643 >if I don't understand it it's chaos cope

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:42:21 2020 No.15883663 >>15883656 This. Basically God of the gaps.

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:44:53 2020 No.15883678

Compatibilism is just an attempt to philosophically justify retributive justice. You need determinism so people can have a reasonable sense of the outcomes of their actions, but you need free will since otherwise you're imprisoning people for things that "aren't their fault." It's nothing more than the tail wagging the dog, and is itself morally reprehensible.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:46:02 2020 No.15883686 >>15883658 Literally yes?

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:54:41 2020 No.15883746

>>15883656
This was a useful way to frame it.

I guess, it seems more intuitive that there is no bottom to the abyss?
That chaos and order cyclically bite at each others tails?

Why should the gap ever close?
We should be able to interpret and understand more about order, but ultimately understand less of chaos?
Especially if chaos is the product of "things" that "exist" outside our universe could we ever expect to pursue or even conceive of pursuing it there?

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:56:30 2020 No.15883760

>>15883656
Yes it is. In the case of the relativistic universe you have an endless universe emerging out of one point. That means in any point in the universe you have an endless amount of force vectors.

In an non relativistic universe you have the same effect but with time.

You have no chance it doesnt matter, doesnt matter how tiny the force is acting now on each point its still unpredictable. Not even Jupiter sized AI will do the calculations for you., You simply cant.

Doesnt matter if you like EU or Relativity more, you cant.

This is what i meant with an endless information density.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:57:11 2020 No.15883767 >>15883322 Socrates, Plato and Aristotle weren't compatibilists though, they believed in libertarian free will justified through the self-motion of living rational bodies, which is not compatible with determinism (and physicslism in general).

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 00:59:41 2020 No.15883782 >>15883686 >>15883746 Yes, cope.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:03:44 2020 No.15883814 >>15883782 Sorry, I know I'm not well-read but i wanted to discuss philosophy with you big bro.

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:04:50 2020 No.15883820

>>15883530
The inability of humans to predict something does not demonstrate non-determinism.
>[the brain] is informed by a mixture of sensory input and learning mechanics that are the product of chaos
A basis on prior inputs is deterministic
>chaos
It isn’t really chaos just because you don’t understand it, that “chaos” operates on fixed natural laws, it’s not random just because you don’t have all the information of what determines the outcome. Nothing is random if you have all the information, which we can never have, the universe is deterministic but so complex that we can act as if we have free will.
>I'm not really well enough read on the philosophy of it.
>I studied the math of neural networks and artificial intelligence.
Yeah, it shows.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:06:51 2020 No.15883835 File: 37 KB, 398x376, DAF9CD6B-ABE3-49FA-93C4-99A8565A86EB.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15883643 >>15883746 >>15883686 >chaos exists

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:08:03 2020 No.15883843 >>15883814 I'm not well read either, I'm just disrespectfully disagreeing.

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:18:29 2020 No.15883913

>>15883820
No need to be mean, I'm just trying to discuss and understand.

>It isn’t really chaos just because you don’t understand it, that “chaos” operates on fixed natural laws, it’s not random just because you don’t have all the information of what determines the outcome. Nothing is random if you have all the information, which we can never have, the universe is deterministic but so complex that we can act as if we have free will.
We agree that randomness exists.
If randomness exists, then the influence of randomness affects the computation of thought in an absurd number of ways ensuring it is not predictable.

It's chaotic if I don't understand it.
It's orderly if I do.
Even if only more or less chaotic/orderly on some personal dimension.

Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:19:47 2020 No.15883925
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>>15883835
>>15883333
Quantum indeterminacy is the apparent necessary incompleteness in the description of a physical system, that has become one of the characteristics of the standard description of quantum physics. Prior to quantum physics, it was thought that

(a) a physical system had a determinate state which uniquely determined all the values of its measurable properties, and conversely
(b) the values of its measurable properties uniquely determined the state.

Quantum indeterminacy can be quantitatively characterized by a probability distribution on the set of outcomes of measurements of an observable. The distribution is uniquely determined by the system state, and moreover quantum mechanics provides a recipe for calculating this probability distribution.

Indeterminacy in measurement was not an innovation of quantum mechanics, since it had been established early on by experimentalists that errors in measurement may lead to indeterminate outcomes. However, by the later half of the eighteenth century, measurement errors were well understood and it was known that they could either be reduced by better equipment or accounted for by statistical error models. In quantum mechanics, however, indeterminacy is of a much more fundamental nature, having nothing to do with errors or disturbance.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:25:38 2020 No.15883979 >>15883925 None of that is relevant. Every cause posited in Quantum Mechanics is a physical cause.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:28:29 2020 No.15884002 >>15883499 niggers can't choose

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:28:32 2020 No.15884003 >>15883979 What determines the decay of a radioactive particle?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:28:44 2020 No.15884004 >>15883979 there are no causes and effects in the determination of the collapse of the wave-function, it is completely and utterly random

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:31:42 2020 No.15884025 >>15884003 >>15884004 QM is fully consistent with determinism. Not that it matters. Randomness is not some non-physical property.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:32:31 2020 No.15884033 File: 2.38 MB, 320x180, generative anthropology.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15884025

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:34:08 2020 No.15884040 File: 40 KB, 800x584, 16E00825-8AD5-4DAB-B8A8-D1054DCADCB1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15883913 >We agree that randomness exists.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:34:16 2020 No.15884041 >>15884025 What determines the decay of a radioactive particle?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:36:11 2020 No.15884055 >>15884040 >Nothing is random if you have all the information, which we can never have Something can be random. Randomness as a property exists.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:36:52 2020 No.15884062 >>15884041 The wave function.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:37:46 2020 No.15884073 >>15884062 LMAO exposed for the meme poster you are.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 01:44:23 2020 No.15884124 >>15884073 The wave function is the correct answer, pseud boy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 02:16:41 2020 No.15884362 >>15884055 >Randomness as a property exists. >people actually believe this Randomness is a cope for limited perception, an acknowledgment that we have too limited knowledge to predict something rather than that the prediction is impossible

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 02:21:11 2020 No.15884401 >>15883820 So if predictive ability has nothing to do with whether determinism is true, why do you think determinism is true?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 17 02:40:08 2020 No.15884544 >compatibilist thread >no mention of Hume or second order volitions So it's probably just people rambling about neuroscience and shit right? Pass.

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