/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15817679]

Why was Achilleus so personally distraught over Agamemnon's seizure of Briseis?
His anger is righteous in the face of the affront, but it seems disgraceful for a man of his prowess and stature to be reduced to tears, crying in his mother's arms and pleading with her to intervene on his behalf, like a child who has had his toy stolen by a slightly bigger boy.

[Anonymous No.15817712]

>>15817679
Because it was the culmination of Agamemnon not crediting him and giving him the respect he deserves. (A common thing Agamemnon does with people, see Ajax Telamonian). Achilles is also a vulnerable character emotionally, he’s not a brick wall emotionally like he is physically, that’s what makes him an intriguing character; he’s not ashamed because his vulnerability does not make him weak.

You also have to understand how conquered women worked, they weren’t just concubines/random girls (at least the ones given to Achilles and other heroes) they were usually captured women of high standing and very emotionally attached to their captors because they are only alive for their kindness; Stockholm syndrome.

[Anonymous No.15817716]

>>15817679
It’s not about the girl

[Anonymous No.15817729]

>>15817712
It's okay when the Greeks do it, right? Not the OT guys

[Anonymous No.15817742]

>>15817729
>OT
What’s OT? And it’s fine for anybody to be vulnerable

[Anonymous No.15817754]

>>15817679
He was a simp. The illiad is a cautionary tale about simping. Soon as he realizes it's bros over hos, everything is chill.

[Anonymous No.15817761]

>>15817742
Orange Tarts

>>15817754
Same is with the fact the fight was started over Helen, wasn't it? Paris should've just chosen Hera or Athena or something.

[Anonymous No.15817785]

>>15817679
> girl
the girl is a pretext, taking her , or any other "geras" , is a demonstration of power. agamennon knows it, achilles knows it, homer knows it, his readers know it. the only fool who doesn't know it it's you, OP.

[Anonymous No.15817806]

>>15817679
Because Agamemnon, in asserting himself as Achilles’ superior by demanding that he hand over Briseis, makes nonsense of the cause that all of the Greek kings took up as equals on Menelaus’ behalf. In other words, Agamemnon does to Achilles precisely that for which the Greeks have just spent ten years fighting, which is the so-called “Rape of Helen.”

[Anonymous No.15817852]

>>15817761
The fight wasn't over Helen specifically. The fight was because Paris also stole a huge amount of money from Menelaus, plus also Helen, and pissed off Hera and Athena who promised Agamemnon he would successfully sack the city. If it was just over Helen the Trojans would have thrown her out of the gates and had already attempted to pay the Greeks to fuck off. It's because Troy was a phenomenally wealthy and powerful city and sacking it would've made all the Greeks look incredibly glorious and powerful in the eyes of their people.

>>15817679
Achilles knows for a fact that he's going to die at Troy. He's already been told that and it's established fact among the gods and him. He's angry because Agamemnon is a belligerent chode and Achilles doesn't want to spend the last months of his life sitting around being disrespected by his own commander just so he can be shot in the ankle and killed by Paris. This is why he doesn't care about the bribe from Agamemnon. He knows his death is imminent if he stays, so for him it's entirely about whether he'd really be living in glory. This is why he even announces his plans to leave when he's offered the tribute. When Patroclus dies he realizes he also has to fight to death, or else he'd live forever with the shame and loneliness.

[Anonymous No.15817880]

>>15817852
>The fight wasn't over Helen specifically. The fight was because Paris also stole a huge amount of money from Menelaus, plus also Helen, and pissed off Hera and Athena who promised Agamemnon he would successfully sack the city. If it was just over Helen the Trojans would have thrown her out of the gates and had already attempted to pay the Greeks to fuck off. It's because Troy was a phenomenally wealthy and powerful city and sacking it would've made all the Greeks look incredibly glorious and powerful in the eyes of their people.
None of this is in Homer. Stick to the text.

[Anonymous No.15817893]

>>15817761
Paris could've chosen better, however Helen had more significance than just being the most beautiful woman on the planet. People forget that Menelaus was not King of Sparta by birth. His legitimacy was in his marriage to Helen, the previous daughter of the Spartan King. Its often forgotten in adaptions in favor of the, "It was all for love," angle, but I feel like it robs the story of complexity. Menelaus had to go to war if he expected to keep his kingdom and Agamemnon, while not the sterling example of morality, didn't do anything wrong by supporting his brother's claim. The Trojan's too, have better reasons for doing what they did. They don't start the war because Paris being a horndog takes precedence above the lives and safety of Trojans, they do it because Helen can perhaps give them a claim to territory in Greece and also because her being given to Paris by a goddess gives them a certain form of legitimacy.

[Anonymous No.15817908]

>>15817880
I am sticking to Homer. There are specific references in the Homer text to Paris having also stolen the wealth of Menelaus, to Troy having attempted to bribe the Greeks off (also reinforced by the decorations of Achilles armor), and Agamemnon says many times that the gods have promised him to sack Troy.

It is incredibly obvious to anyone with more than a double-digit IQ that the combination of all the Trojans being clearly furious with Paris, angry at Helen, having offered tribute to the Greeks and been refused, and Agamemnon's declaration of divine support for his cause indicates clearly the section I wrote. This IS purely from the Homeric text, you idiot.

[Anonymous No.15818015]

>>15817908
The “Judgment of Paris” is not mentioned in the Iliad.

[Anonymous No.15818045]

>>15818015
I didn't say it was, I said that the text clearly states Helen was abducted, and Agamemnon clearly states that the gods have promised he will sack Troy. Hector also mentions the wealth Paris stole from Menelaus in his return to the city.

[Anonymous No.15818059]

>>15817785
you, in seeking to prove your superiority, have made yourself an ass
obviously it isn't about the girl, I even allude to that by referring to her as a "toy"

>>15817806
I hadn't considered the way in which the two events mirrored each other, thank you

>>15817852
interesting, I didn't realize the reference to Achilleus as being short-lived meant he knew he was going to die in the battle for Troy
his despair makes much more sense in light of this

[Anonymous No.15818166]

>>15817679
The society of the heroic age depicted by Homer is one of a shame culture, in which what other people think about you defines who you are. Agamemnon basically bitch slapped Achilles in front of everyone, making him look like an absolute beta cuck, which is especially insulting to Achilles because he is one of the most honored among the Greeks, one that single-handedly won them countless battles. A similiar thing is told in the Oddyssey, where big boy Ajax literally killed himself, because the Greeks valued Oddyseus over him and gave him Achilles' armor.

[Anonymous No.15818347]

>>15818015
Homer mentions it (24.25-30), so he was clearly aware of it. Which, should be obvious, as the entire meta narrative of the Iliad and the Odyssey is that they're being performed as the best stories to tell a specific part of the Epic Cycle. How could Homer NOT know the full story?

[Anonymous No.15818373]

>>15818045
You mention how Paris pissed of Hera and Athena.

[Anonymous No.15818396]

>>15818347
I’m not saying that Homer didn’t know the full story. I’m saying that Homer did know the full story and chose to only make use of part of it.

[Anonymous No.15818817]

>MOMMY MOMMY
>AGAPOOPYHEAD STOLE MY MAKE UP ARTIST
>HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO LOOK PRETTY FOR PATTY NOW

[Anonymous No.15818882]

>>15818817
Kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.15818905]

>>15817679
nigga's thumos was on fire