/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15815543]

Just finished The Shadow Of The Torturer by Gene Wolf, lads. I'm about halfway through the claw of the conciliator but I want your opinion on the first book mainly to avoid spoilers.


Firstly I love Gene Wolfs style of writing. His use of archaic words felt just right, and not to the point of being over the top. And they were used well enough that most the time context was enough to give you a clue as to what the word was. The strange baroque fantasy/ sci fi setting was also well done and I wish I've read more settings like this. His world building is great, and feels almost like a puzzle. Having to work out what is happening from what's not being said, as opposed to what is said is a nice touch. The little clues to the fact the sun is dying. An exampleis when the characters talk about the starts during daylight. The weight of civilization overtensof thousands (maybe hundreds) of years you can feel everywhere.


Then you have the absolute mad lad Severian. He claims to have a perfect photogenic memory, but contradicts himself. I understand that he's an unreliable narrator, but I'm too much of a retard to pick up when that's particularly happening. And can someone explain to me why he seems to so easily fall in love with literally every roastie he comes across in the book? It feels like that anyway.


That's my shitpost anyway lads, what did you think of this book?

[Anonymous No.15815553]

>>15815543
>why does he fall in love with every roastie
thats the tru nature of man

[Anonymous No.15815589]

>>15815543
>And can someone explain to me why he seems to so easily fall in love with literally every roastie he comes across in the book?
His obsession with Dorcas will make sense by the end of the series. Same for Agia, kind of. Jolenta just makes every man she meets want to fuck her, there's really no bigger explanation there.

[Anonymous No.15815714]

>>15815589
You forgot roastie number 1 Thiccla

[Anonymous No.15815823]

>>15815543
The Book of the New Sun is great, I've read and re-read this entire saga several times and still find details that completely eluded me on previous readings. Gene Wolfe was obviously a keen student of Borges and it shows, every "high fantasy" book I have read subsequently has been a disappointment by comparison. Enjoy the rest of the books and don't feel bad for not understanding what the fuck just happened at the end of Citadel of the Autarch. Also Jolenta best girl.

[Anonymous No.15815855]

Supposidly there's like a second, hidden, underlying plot to the whole thing. Nobody's ever been able to explain what this is however, or how to find it.

[Anonymous No.15815865]

Loved the first two but didn't have the second half handy. But this thread just convinced me to drop 13 dollarydoos on the combined 3rd and 4th book, cheers OP.

In my pleb opinion, the crucial thing about this series is how he manages to omit or only vaguely include information while not frustrating the reader. This seems difficult to do, and I think the reason it works is in large part due to the straightforward nature of the actual plot beats. We might be confused about the overall context, but Severian's immediate actions and plans are much more clear, giving us something solid to grasp onto.

[Anonymous No.15815887]

Was Severian mommy-pilled?

[Anonymous No.15815899]

>>15815887
>we wanna fuck our moms
that applies to everyone tho

[Anonymous No.15815905]

>>15815865
There's also the fact that Severian's character arc through the books is a perfectly good story on its own, even without all the unreliable narrator stuff. I like the puzzle box element of BoTNS as much as the next guy, but it's totally possible to read the series as a straightforward redemption story and enjoy it.
>>15815887
Did Wolfe write this, or is it from some fan book?

[Anonymous No.15815934]

>>15815905
>Did Wolfe write this

He did. It's from an interview with Robert Freazier which you can find in 'Shadows of the New Sun: Wolfe on Writing, Writers on Wolfe'.

[Anonymous No.15816014]

>>15815899
That's the jewish subversion talking

[Anonymous No.15816175]

>>15815865
No problem lad.
That's also a good point about the way it's written. In reviews I've seen people complain about the plot being loads of seemingly pointless scenes that don't really connect in anyway. I don't agree with that, but the way you've said it makes it make a lot more sense.

[Anonymous No.15816696]

I always wanted the companion book to this series

[Anonymous No.15816894]

This steaming hot pile of mess comes together (mostly) in the last book.
What a ride this was, got me back into reading actually, though it was hard.
Also, the 5th book, written many years after the original explains a lot of loose ends of the series, but falls of HARD near the end.
Still a nice read.
Book of the New Sun - 9/10.
Book of the New Urth - 6/10.

[Black Cat No.15816920]

>>15815543
It fucking rocks. Best book I've read in years. I completely agree with your description of the setting: I truly feel like this is a world which is filled with untold millions of years of history, and the effects that would have on a civilization. Nessus was definitely my favorite part.

If you want a good companion but don't want to read, check out the Alzabo Soup podcast. They're a bit onions but they are true Wolfe fanatics who are great at giving a spoiler-free deep reading/reading group simulator. It'll really help you understand how to pick up when Severian is being unreliable.

One of the most interesting things I got from them is the fact that the book has several lens it must be read through:
*Literal adventure story of Severian
*Psychological profile of Severian the narrator
*Political tract to legitimate Severian's rule as autarch, as mentioned in the first chapter
*Catholic understanding of humanity (with Wolfe's idiosyncrasies thrown in)
*Philosophical explanation why there is something rather than nothing
*Thematically on coming of age, war, love, technology, myths, and everything else of course

One more thing, Wolfe began writing it about his experience of being a soldier on his way to war (but not about the war itself), so try to understand things like the Feast of Catherine in the context of a manhood ceremony, and Severian's journey towards the war with the Ascians by wondering what Wolfe experienced on his way from the US to fight in Korea as a young private(?).

>>15815823
>Jolenta best girl
God I feel so bad for her because first time using spoilers so I am still going to be cryptic, but you fucking know what I'm talking about. I remember her first agreeing to come with and I was like "in real life I absolutely would not do this this is sketch as hell" and then it was as horrible as I guessed it would be. Severian and Talos and all the rest just treat her so horribly

>>15815855
I've explained to people the "top level" before and like 75% of it goes over their head. If you want to use spoilers to share what you know I'd be happy to help add things around the edges. I'm not sure how much you consider "the first plot".

>>15815865
This is good analysis

>>15815887
Absolutely. [Spoiler] Especially once it's implied he has a twin sister I'm like "okay which girl he had sex with is she going to turn out to be[/Spoiler]

>>15815934
Oh that fucking rocks. Good on him for just going for it. I assumed this was some essay stretching a bit.

>>15816175
There are definitely a lot of one-off scenes (the third(?) book had like four really egregious ones), but the vast majority are connected to past and future plot points but usually only opaquely. Definitely fun to read without picking up on those, though.

>>15816894
I still need to read New Urth

[Black Cat No.15816943]

>15815543 (OP)
It fucking rocks. Best book I've read in years. I completely agree with your description of the setting: I truly feel like this is a world which is filled with untold millions of years of history, and the effects that would have on a civilization. Nessus was definitely my favorite part.

If you want a good companion but don't want to read, check out the Alzabo Soup podcast. They're a bit onions but they are true Wolfe fanatics who are great at giving a spoiler-free deep reading/reading group simulator. It'll really help you understand how to pick up when Severian is being unreliable.

One of the most interesting things I got from them is the fact that the book has several lens it must be read through:
*Literal adventure story of Severian
*Psychological profile of Severian the narrator
*Political tract to legitimate Severian's rule as autarch, as mentioned in the first chapter
*Catholic understanding of humanity (with Wolfe's idiosyncrasies thrown in)
*Philosophical explanation why there is something rather than nothing
*Thematically on coming of age, war, love, technology, myths, and everything else of course

One more thing, Wolfe began writing it about his experience of being a soldier on his way to war (but not about the war itself), so try to understand things like the Feast of Catherine in the context of a manhood ceremony, and Severian's journey towards the war with the Ascians by wondering what Wolfe experienced on his way from the US to fight in Korea as a young private(?).

>>15815823
>Jolenta best girl
God I feel so bad for her because Severian raping her and then Talos, etc. leaving her to die. I remember her first agreeing to come with and I was like "in real life I absolutely would not do this this is sketch as hell" and then it was as horrible as I guessed it would be.

>>15815855
I've explained to people the "top level" before and like 75% of it goes over their head. If you want to use spoilers to share what you know I'd be happy to help add things around the edges. I'm not sure how much you consider "the first plot".

>>15815865
This is good analysis

>>15815887
Absolutely. Especially once it's implied he has a twin sister I'm like "okay which girl he had sex with is she going to turn out to be

>>15815934
Oh that fucking rocks. Good on him for just going for it. I assumed this was some essay stretching a bit.

>>15816175
There are definitely a lot of one-off scenes (the third(?) book had like four really egregious ones), but the vast majority are connected to past and future plot points but usually only opaquely. Definitely fun to read without picking up on those, though.

>>15816894
I still need to read New Urth

[Anonymous No.15816961]

>>15815543
i read the first page of this back when bookstores were open, and the writing was not good. everyone praises him as as a "word-user," well, I didn't see it. maybe fantasy has lower standards.

[Anonymous No.15816994]

>>15816961
>and the writing was not good. everyone praises him as as a "word-user," well, I didn't see it.

[Anonymous No.15817002]

>>15816994
>his use of archaic words just felt right

[Anonymous No.15817133]

>>15816943
The whole point of Severian raping her was to further convey how morally ambiguous Severian is as a character. The Book of the New Sun is great insofar that you know no character or plot is entirely as it seems, largely due to the unreliable narrator but also because Wolfe was trying to avoid writing a cliche. I knew straight away that Jolenta would probably have a sad ending when Talos offered to make her beautiful. I think it's Wolfe's way of punishing the damsel archetype in fantasy stories.

[Anonymous No.15817171]

>>15817133
Oh for sure it has a purpose, it just succeeded. I'm not sure if he was trying to punish the damsel in distress as much as doing a Faust thing, but late Jolenta definitely had those vibes.

BTW the OP is only 1 book in, hence why I'm using spoiler tags.

[Anonymous No.15818247]

>>15815543
BotNS is the best, sometimes I think which of the books is the best and I come to the conclusion that all of them are equally amazing. Urth of the New Sun gets shit sometimes but in my opinion is fucking great too. So yeah, enjoy the ride and be careful with googling shit and spoilers, and don't care too much about missing things because you're gonna miss them.

[Anonymous No.15818368]

>>15815543
>He claims to have a perfect photogenic memory
>photogenic memory

At his memory's increasingly popular political campaign:
"Pshh, nothing personnel kid"

[Anonymous No.15818474]

>>15816943
i really want to hear about your explanation that you've given that usually goes over peoples heads.
i've been craving this analysis since i finished Urth and want to re-read BOTNS with the analysis in mind.

[Anonymous No.15818482]

>>15816961
you have been filtered.

[Anonymous No.15818695]

>>15816943
>Severian has a twin sister.
Is this implied anywhere but the naming convention that Agia (or whomever) mentions, as exemplified by Casdoe's children?

[Anonymous No.15818721]

>>15815543
I've tried I think 3 times now to get through Shadow of the Torturer and it's just so fucking boring that I quit every time. The prose is nothing exceptional, the setting is nothing exceptional, none of the characters are very interesting, the plot doesn't grab me at all. Everything about the book is just mediocre. I'd illustrate the point with a food analogy but you all understand where I'm going.

[Anonymous No.15818726]

>>15815543
Just read Jack Vance if you want actually good Dying Earth fiction.

[Anonymous No.15818738]

>>15818247
Hard disagree. The Sword of the Lictor is *easily* the best of the four. So many kino moments and great theological observations, the latter especially after the duel of the magicians, which converted me from a Gnostic worldview in two paragraphs. The storytelling competition in Citadel is also a high mark of the series. Claw might be my least favorite, but even that has great moments like the play, the ending, the antechamber, and the dinner scene.

[Anonymous No.15818764]

>>15815543
Just wait till you realize Severian signed the papers that got Thecla tortured in the beginning.

[Anonymous No.15818769]

>>15818721
It took me three tries to get through Shadow, then a fourth one (beginning at Shadow) to get through Claw, which literally has a saltatory narrative gap at the beginning in Saltus. Easily my favorite book series now. You might not like it if you're not religiously minded and/or interested in Judeo-Christian mysticism.

[Anonymous No.15818781]

>>15818764
Whaaat?

[Anonymous No.15818835]

>>15818769
>You might not like it if you're not religiously minded and/or interested in Judeo-Christian mysticism.
Oh, fuck that shit.

[Anonymous No.15818910]

Shut the fuck up slowpoke

[Anonymous No.15818925]

>>15818764
yeah well, fuck that bitch

[Anonymous No.15819009]

>>15818781
Don’t worry I didn’t even realize the first read through cuz I was a dumb kid. Sev is basically butthurt she didn’t sleep with him

[Anonymous No.15819264]

>>15818764
Either that, or he merely discovered the papers beforehand and didn't do anything to destroy them when he had the chance. I think the latter makes more sense, since it doesn't depend on a barely-literate teenager being able to forge official documents.

[Anonymous No.15819743]

>>15819009
I've read it a million times, and I'm staring at the passage right now. Unless Sev is straight-up lying to the reader, which I don't think he's ever done (lies of omission not counted), it makes no sense. This anon's reading — >>15819264 — seemed always to be the obvious and correct one.

[Anonymous No.15819748]

>>15819009
And wait, Thecla *did* sleep with Sev, or at least they went very far, as was revealed in the third book.

[Anonymous No.15819825]

>>15818721
I sincerely don’t mean to be rude but I unironically think people who don’t get BOTNS are brainlets

[Anonymous No.15819915]

>>15819825
It's still genreshit, Einstein

[Anonymous No.15819941]

>>15819915
It's genreshit in the same way as Tolkien is genreshit, which is to say: not at all.

[Anonymous No.15819956]

>>15819941
Go back to r/books

[Anonymous No.15819971]

>>15819956
Upvoted

[Anonymous No.15819981]

>>15818738
just reread the stuff about forces and counter-forces, words said and unsaid; it truly is enlightening

[Anonymous No.15820124]

Probably going to start my third read through shortly bros...

[Anonymous No.15820162]

>>15819748
>she slept with him
I honestly assume he was lying when he said that every time in the second half of the series

[Anonymous No.15820170]

>>15815543
Ok but does the giant actually die or did he just pretend?

[Anonymous No.15820185]

>>15820170
baldanders is fucking his harem of undines at every moment, he's living the good life under the sea

[Anonymous No.15820448]

>>15818695
Well there's a sort of hidden implication with Valeria. When she's introducing herself to Severian she says "“I am all the sisters we breed...And all the sons.” This can be seen as a reference to Shakespeare's Twelfth Night where Viola says, "I am all the daughters of my father’s house, And all the brothers too." When she says this she's impersonating her brother who she thinks is dead but is actually still alive.
Valeria could be Severian's sister.

[Anonymous No.15820466]

>>15815543
Soooo is hethor father inire?

[Anonymous No.15820518]

>>15820466
hethor is a sailor, so no. if I remember correctly inire is the old man who cleans the paintings

[Anonymous No.15820548]

>>15815899
The Oedipus complex has evolved out because it's maladaptive. It can only exist in an inbred, matriarchal, parasitic subspecies.

[Anonymous No.15821311]

Wasn't there an iceberg levels of deep meme about BOTNS? If not we should make one.

[Anonymous No.15821321]

>>15815543
Gene Wolf's inspiration, Jack Vance, is better.

[Anonymous No.15821659]

>>15821311
i want to see this

[Anonymous No.15821727]

>>15815543
>le unreliable narrator meme
name ONE (1) thing severian lies about, omission doesn't count

[Anonymous No.15822218]

>>15821727
It’s not a lie, but he can’t even keep straight who saw the volunteers coming for them at the beginning of Shadow.
“...Roche held me saying, ‘Wait, I see pikes.’”
Then he talks about how he has a perfect memory for a paragraph. Immediately after that paragraph, “The men had no armor, as I could soon see by the sickly yellow light of the lanterns; but they had pikes, as Drotte had said...”
The bag that Dorcas made for the claw goes from being doeskin to manskin.
Point is his memory is not as perfect as he thinks it is. There are even some parts at the end of Citadel where he says as much.

[Anonymous No.15822665]

>>15821727
He goes back and forth about whether or not he fucked Thecla

[Anonymous No.15822965]

>>15822218
His memory isn't some set of perfect photographic images. He remembers events through the impressions he has at the time- not just his eyes and ears, but his realizations and impressions of a situation and the worldview he sees them through and the morals he acts according to are made present again. It's more like time travel than recalling a memory. He misunderstands Drotte's voice as Roche for a moment, or placed the whisper wrong, but doesn't write about realizing his mistake.
>>15822665
I'm less confident about this idea, but I had assumed that was Thecla's imagining through her fantasies of escape or the torture. Doesn't it only appear after he receives her memories?

[Anonymous No.15823417]

>>15821727
I don't know, that's why I posted the question to the lads. I specifically said Im probably too retarded to pick up on when he's being unreliable. I've only read the first, and it even says in the introduction that he's an unreliable narrator.

[Anonymous No.15823637]

>>15818738
Funny you say that because I used to think that Claw was the best, mostly because of the parts you mentioned and also leaves many new questions, at the end I was really hooked. Sword has the most "adventure" feel of them all which may be the best or the worst depending of which you like the most about BotNS. I also didn't find the stories part of Citadel that good, what did you like about them that much?

[Anonymous No.15823649]

Listening to Alzabo Soup pod as was recommended ITT. True it is a bit onions but they do a good job going through the details and etymologies and shit. I think digesting this and then doing a reread would be good

[Anonymous No.15823669]

>>15823649

The Gene Wolfe Literary Podcast hasn't gotten to the New Sun yet, but I'm certain they'll do a better job than the Alzabo crew. Something to keep an eye on.

[Anonymous No.15823680]

>>15823669
Are they supposed to be better than Alzabo Soup?

[Anonymous No.15823747]

>>15823649
What do you mean by onions?

[Anonymous No.15823776]

>>15823680

It's different; the shows are a bit more structured. I like the hosts better. They've taken the chronological approach and are working their way down Wolfe's corpus touching on about half the stories along the way.

There's a third podcast called too ReReading Wolfe (I think.) I haven't listened to it yet.

[Anonymous No.15823787]

>>15823747

They've got the smell of söy on their breath--if you know what I mean.

[Anonymous No.15823816]

>>15823747
It’s a word filter for “s——-o——y”

[Anonymous No.15823823]

>>15823787
I thought you meant it might make you cry.

[Anonymous No.15823854]

>>15822965
>Doesn't it only appear after he receives her memories?
That wouldn't matter since all books are written from the perspective of Severian the Autarch

[Anonymous No.15823873]

>>15823787
I'm having a goosey gander at the moment. The first episode seems to cover the first two books, is that right? Or am I missing something. If so it's not safe for me to read yet as I'm only 60% through book 2

[Anonymous No.15823879]

>>15823776
>>15823680
ReReading Wolfe is, as the name implies, intended for people who've already read the whole series, so there are no restrictions on spoilers. It's a chapter by chapter in depth analysis of everything you could possibly talk about like "What's the proper pronunciation of 'Triskele.'" On top of that they have wild fan theory discussions.

[Anonymous No.15823889]

>>15823787
Ignore me, found the right start.

[Anonymous No.15823933]

>>15823873
They’re chapter by chapter, or some episodes have two chapters.

[Anonymous No.15823940]

>>15823879
Bruh I already started Alzabo Soup and now you’re telling me this

[Anonymous No.15823949]

>>15818721
Same desu. I feel like Wolfe only appeals to the autistic engineer's mind which delights in puzzles, teasing out connections and piecing together mysteries. I greatly enjoyed Latro in the Mist because these qualities were adjoined to greek mythology which I also enjoy, but when it comes to Judeo-Christian mysticism (as another anon mentioned) I prefer Melville who is able to inspire the same level of wonder and emotion through his prose and characters. That's what I think really it is, Wolfe's work feels so cold and bereft of emotion, so meticulously calculated, that it loses all sense of inspiration. Its literature as mathematics, which, like a diamond, is as beautiful as it is bloodless.

[Anonymous No.15823957]

>>15823949
>inspire the same level of wonder and emotion
i.e as the Bible itself.

[Anonymous No.15823992]

Welcome to Urth

[Anonymous No.15824011]

>>15823992
who is this fellow? he seems nice

[Anonymous No.15824021]

>>15823949
>I feel like Wolfe only appeals to the autistic engineer's mind
I feel attacked

[Anonymous No.15824028]

>>15823949
>>15823957
this is interesting for me to read as the closest i think i've ever gotten to a religio-mystical experience was re-reading botns for the fourth time

[Anonymous No.15824042]

>>15824011

A kindly priest who loves Tolkien and Wolfe.

[Anonymous No.15824049]

>>15823992
huh. I thought it was just using "ur" to identify the planet as really old and the oldest/original planet humanity inhabited.

[Anonymous No.15824050]

>>15819915
>i cant brag to other DSA trannies about how smart i am if i read sci-fi so it's genreshit

[Anonymous No.15824358]

>>15823854
As I mentioned, though, such inconsistencies are better explained by Severian getting caught up in his memories and explaining his impressions at the particular moment he writes about rather than a more considered view at time of writing.

[Anonymous No.15825103]

>>15823949
I get where this comes from but it's like saying Proust can only be enjoyed by NEETs and dilettantes. I'm not exactly an engineer and I didn't really care that much about the puzzles. That only happened on my second read, so your opinion might be founded on the opinions of others who (autistically) set out to reread and get "everything" right and are pretty vocal and zealoty about Wolfe.
On my first read I didn't know what I was getting into and I was gripped by the writing and the atmosphere, and I liked Severian's manners. The first 3rd of Shadow felt like a fever dream and it's one of my most cherised memories of literature.
And sure, the book has it flaws, it can be dry at times, but I don't get where or how you might find this "coldness" you describe. For fuck's sake, every divine revelation of Severian is filled with candor and awe.
And btw, I doubt Neil Gaiman and Ursula LeGuin are autistic STEMlords.

>>15822218
Someone has said before this was a print error they never bothered to correct. Maybe some of the anons listening to the podcasts might now better if this was deliberate.

[Anonymous No.15825105]

i’ve just read the bit in claw where serverian meets the autarch(?), i literally have no idea what’s going on now

[Anonymous No.15825128]

>>15825105
it'll get explained in citadel don't worry

[Anonymous No.15825218]

>>15825103
My opinion is founded on my own reading of his books and on my knowledge of Wolfe's background (he was an engineer himself for most of his life) not on the opinions of others (though they certainly didn't help dispel my notions). I wouldn't even say it was a flaw either, since there are obviously people who like that sort of thing and Wolfe is certainly a master of its execution--it's just not my cup of tea.

[Anonymous No.15825296]

>>15825105
heh wait til you get to Eschatology and Genesis

[Anonymous No.15825858]

>>15825296
I’ve only read Shadow, not sure if I’ll read the rest. The style, plot, and characters are unremarkable. As with most genre fiction, 90% of the appeal comes from the novelty of the setting. Except in this book there’s the added layer of trying to piece together the details. It doesn’t surprise me that this stuff is crack for lorefags

[Anonymous No.15825867]

>>15825858
Sorry to >>15825296 didn’t mean to reply to anyone

[Anonymous No.15826784]

>>15825858
Maybe you just aren’t as smart as you like to imagine yourself as? You can go jerk off your own imagined grandeur of intellect elsewhere

[Anonymous No.15828067]

>>15816894
I disagree. The end explained a lot to me and sort of did a final flourish before closing it all out.

[Anonymous No.15828166]

>>15815543
I empathise with Severian. I want to fuck every attractive female I meet and feel love for most of them even when I treat them like cruel autist

[Anonymous No.15828870]

>>15819743
>he's never lied
he said early on that he never went swimming in the river that runs through nessus, then later on he's swimming in the river

[Anonymous No.15829050]

>>15828870
lol

[Anonymous No.15829073]

>>15825296
i honestly don't know how Wolfe expected anyone to understand Eschatology and Genesis without Urth being published, like how many people understood Urth got flooded before Urth of the New Sun was released?

[Anonymous No.15829145]

>>15816014
OH HERE WE GO AGAIN ABOUT HOW THE JEWS ARE PARASITES, CORRUPTING EVERY SOCIETY THEY LIVE IN WITH NIHILISTIC DEGENERACY
HOW ABOUT YOU GO BACK TO POL SWEETIE

[Anonymous No.15829161]

>>15829145
dial 8, sweaty

[Anonymous No.15829207]

>>15829073
Aren't there several references to water levels increasing and Abaia and the other things needing water to increase their reach or something?

[Anonymous No.15829584]

>>15829145
Kike

[Anonymous No.15829652]

>>15823949
>autistic engineer's mind which delights in puzzles
Typology is hard. This:
>>15825103
>it's like saying Proust can only be enjoyed by NEETs and dilettantes

The prose still outstrips what has passed for standard in scifi for most of a century (Asimov archetype)

[Anonymous No.15829694]

>>15825103
Le Guin>>>>>>Gaiman

[Anonymous No.15829972]

>>15825105
Proceed onward and take it slowly

[Anonymous No.15830407]

>>15829145
>The Jew is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a scoundrel, parasite, swindler, profiteer, it all runs of him like water off a raincoat. But call him a jew and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: 'I've been found out.'"

[Anonymous No.15830436]

>>15822665
Does he, though? I may be wrong but from what I remember he merely glosses over the specifics of their relationship, then later specifies that he had sex with her. Doesn't mean he lied about it.

[Anonymous No.15830471]

How does Wolfe's Jesusfreakery reflect on his writing?

[Anonymous No.15830486]

>>15830471
>Jesusfreakery
Literature isn't for you.

[Anonymous No.15830505]

What would Gene Wolfe's internet nickname / handle be?

[Anonymous No.15830519]

test
s oy
s'oy
s-oy

[Anonymous No.15830534]

The thing I did not get while going through the books was what the claw is - some sort of resurrection device? I also did not bother much with time travel implications though they were clear enough. What I enjoyed the most is the writing itself, the way he constructs the world - and while I'm aware it's not fantasy, I choose to view it that way, rather than dying earth subset of post-apoc sci-fi. I also missed any sort of Catholic influences, though I also watched Dreyer and Bresson and their work did not produce any sort of religious dawn within me, or leave any sort of spiritual impression. I just enjoy the stylistic devices. I read Wolfe for the atmosphere; much-lauded passages such as one with the beach pebbles are completely insignificant to me.

[Anonymous No.15831985]

you goys are convincing me to make this my next read
was thinking about it already

[Anonymous No.15832055]

>>15819825

Is it worth at least trying if you are a 120s IQ brainlet? I can enjoy Infinite Jest but still had to look up theories online to explain the story more. I can't understand Gravity's Rainbow or Ulysses.

[Anonymous No.15832091]

>>15832055
you won't understand it all if you aren't decently aware of physics, theology, mythology and etymology but you will thoroughly enjoy it anyway

[Anonymous No.15832125]

>>15830534
>what the claw is - some sort of resurrection device?
I always assumed the power was actually Severian’s

[Anonymous No.15832171]

These type of narrative conundrums always remind me of those painstaking analysis of David Lynch's work - and I don't watch Twin Peaks wanting to know what Judy or Bob are.

[Anonymous No.15832502]

>>15831985
Glad I could help inspire you anon

[Anonymous No.15833381]

>>15821311
>Wasn't there an iceberg levels of deep meme about BOTNS?
No one?

[Anonymous No.15833433]

>lads

[Anonymous No.15833855]

>>15819009
didn't they fuck all the time though?
while she was alive and they were interacting together, i thought they did nothing, but in the later books he says it himself and through her memories all the time.

[Anonymous No.15833888]

>>15820518
>if I remember correctly inire is the old man who cleans the paintings
wat

[Anonymous No.15833901]

>>15830534
>some sort of resurrection device?
>much-lauded passages such as one with the beach pebbles are completely insignificant to me
The tragedy of BOTNS is that it's wasted on genrefags.

[Anonymous No.15833928]

>>15833901
Happily BOTSS is the Garden of Eden that wrinklebrain chads like you and me deserve.

[Anonymous No.15834161]

in the scene in the cabin with the alzabo, Severian says that Agia starts saying stuff like "yeah he's a dead eater, he's eaten his girlfriend and now she's inside him", but there's no way she knew about that, right?

Was he straight up lying to us?

[Anonymous No.15834223]

>>15834161
I don't remember the timeline of events exactly, but wasn't it later revealed she was in cahoots with Voladus? If so she might've learned about that before they met at the cabin.

[Anonymous No.15834244]

>>15834223
yeah you're right, a couple of weeks passed between the two events.

[Anonymous No.15834318]

how important are long sun/short sun in understanding new sun? just wondering if i should just read the whole series in a row or treat them as separate stories and read something else in between

[Anonymous No.15834351]

>>15834318
i haven't read them.
are they prequels or sequels?

[Anonymous No.15834372]

>>15834351
no idea, i just know they take place in the same ‘solar cycle’ series

[Anonymous No.15834400]

>>15830471
Well first your a faggot. Second as far as stories with biblical allegory goes Wolfe is probably the best in the business

[Anonymous No.15834522]

>>15834400
Yeah he usually goes his own ways with it which I really like. Like when Severian undergoes his version of the temptation of christ, it's the dis-analogies between the situations which the text draws attention to. That way he can use the biblical stories to say something about the world, instead of saying the world is supposed to only commentate on the bible.

Also, he has this really interesting aside where he explains how texts always have meanings beyond those intended by the author, and actively encourages us to think about those; I feel like most christ-writing fails by trying to be didactic or directly allegorical.

[Anonymous No.15834791]

>>15834318
They're all set in the same universe but they are not too relevant to understanding New Sun. Maybe Short Sun gives a bit of a hint of what happens it lore-wise.
Short Sun is a lot important to understanding Long Sun.

Just read something else in between. Savor the wait. Short Sun felt extremely personal, like a second coming of Severian (not that they're related).

>>15834400
If by business you meant sci fi, then you'd be right, probably. If not, read a fuck ton more.

[Anonymous No.15835044]

>>15834161
Didn't he reveal that he was talking in his sleep or something?

[Anonymous No.15835476]

One of the best parts of BotNS is reading people discuss it afterwords.

[Anonymous No.15835988]

>>15834351
depends on how you interpret short sun really. could be either.

[Anonymous No.15836372]

Is The Urth of the New Sun worth reading?
It's been like a year since I've read BotNS.

[Anonymous No.15836390]

>>15836372
No, you kinda have to have the gritty details right on the fore of your recollection if you want really get the worth out of it. Maybe time for a reread, comrade?

[Anonymous No.15836395]

>>15836390
>you kinda have to have the gritty details right on the fore of your recollection if you want really get the worth out of it
That's kind of what I was expecting.
I read the first four books in a row and felt like I was already missing out on a bunch of details.

[Anonymous No.15836569]

>>15836395
You'll probably enjoy it more if you reread first and then read Urth, I reread BOTNS after a year and then read Urth immediately after, picked up on a lot of things I didn't even remember and enjoyed Urth that much more for it.

[Anonymous No.15836691]

>>15836569
I should try this, I read urth 4+ years after and I felt like the publishers were forcing him to cram Severian into an unrelated narrative as a cash grab or something.

[Anonymous No.15836696]

>>15830534
Don’t want to spoil it for you, but Urth of the New Sun will answer all your questions about the Claw.

[Anonymous No.15836713]

>>15836691
I was honestly surprised how congruent it felt with the rest of the series, especially after hearing about how Urth wasn't as good and pushed by the publisher almost a decade later etc. It didn't read like it was written so much later at all.