Literarily speaking, does this hold up?

[Anonymous No.15777734]

>Merely constructing the NT, with all its wisdom, and all its fulfilled prophecies, and references to the OT, is a serious challenge, let alone making all the information seem coherent with reality, such as Jesus actually being crucified, and other big names like Paul and James being real, devout Christians.

>To paraphrase John Piper, the writings of Jesus are so profound themselves, that we have to believe the writer was divinely inspired. And if he was divinely inspired, then what he wrote is true. You can sense something special and unique just by reading the sermon on the mount.

I have to say that the character of Jesus is certainly noteworthy regardless of his divinity being true

[Anonymous No.15777750]

>>15777734
What are those fulfilled prophecies you talk about?

[Anonymous No.15777764]

>>15777750
messianic prophecies and references like Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, etc.

[Anonymous No.15777794]

>>15777734
>writings of jesus

[Anonymous No.15777821]

>>15777794
“about”

[Anonymous No.15777835]

>>15777794
based ESL fag

[Anonymous No.15777879]

>>15777794
You have to be 18 to post here
And get yourself a GED while you're at it

[Anonymous No.15777913]

>>15777764
Written after the fact by guys who knew what the prophecies they had to fulfill were.

[Anonymous No.15777921]

>>15777913
what guys?

[Anonymous No.15777930]

>>15777921
Whoever were the conversed Jews who wrote the NT books.

[Anonymous No.15777935]

>>15777913
OT prophecies tho

[Anonymous No.15777945]

>>15777930
why would Jews fake it? Are they Jews or not? No reason in trying to fake prophecy if you don’t believe in the prophecy

[Anonymous No.15777952]

>Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

>Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get knowledge, seeing he hath no heart for it?

[Anonymous No.15777967]

>>15777945
By conversed Jews I mean early Christians of course, who wrote the gospels to prove that Jesus fulfiled the prophecies of the old testament.

[Anonymous No.15777989]

>>15777967
>early Christians
...who were Jews

[Anonymous No.15778004]

>>15777734
The writings of Plato are so profound themselves, that we have to believe the writer was divinely inspired. And if he was divinely inspired, then what he wrote is true. You can sense something special and unique just by reading the Phaedrus.

[Anonymous No.15778062]

>>15778004
>by the gods, Socrates, you are right!
and so on. Plato’s words and ideas are criticized much more than Jesus’. But even if Plato was divinely inspired, so what? Neither he nor Socrates claimed to be the Son of God.

[Anonymous No.15778149]

>>15777989
Yes, that's what I'm saying.

[jesus No.15778215]

>>15777734
larping bullshit and flatter

[Anonymous No.15778504]

>>15777734
>the writings of Jesus are so profound themselves, that we have to believe the writer was divinely inspired
When will the First Folio be rightly accepted as scritpure?

[/urantia/ No.15778538]

>>15777734
100:7.4.The Son of Man was always a well-poised personality. Even his enemies maintained a wholesome respect for him; they even feared his presence. Jesus was unafraid. He was surcharged with divine enthusiasm, but he never became fanatical. He was emotionally active but never flighty. He was imaginative but always practical. He frankly faced the realities of life, but he was never dull or prosaic. He was courageous but never reckless; prudent but never cowardly. He was sympathetic but not sentimental; unique but not eccentric. He was pious but not sanctimonious. And he was so well-poised because he was so perfectly unified.

100:7.5.Jesus' originality was unstifled. He was not bound by tradition or handicapped by enslavement to narrow conventionality. He spoke with undoubted confidence and taught with absolute authority. But his superb originality did not cause him to overlook the gems of truth in the teachings of his predecessors and contemporaries. And the most original of his teachings was the emphasis of love and mercy in the place of fear and sacrifice.

[Anonymous No.15778717]

>>15778062
>by the gods, Socrates, you are right!
>Apology
>Meno
>Protagoras (ends with socrates and the other guy each changing their opinion to what the other held at the beginning)
>Gorgias
>Republic
>CLITOPHON (guy shit talks socrates for 5 pages)

[Anonymous No.15778723]

ITT: christcuck evangelizing disguised as a literary thread

[Anonymous No.15778731]

>>15778717
Also people should answer every question themselves, I assure you that most of you will conclude with an answer similar to the one the other character gives in affirmation to Socrates. Plato, knowing this, just cuts to the chase, he didn't just presuppose the positive answer.
There's also the dialogue Parmenides, where Socrates becomes the Yes-Man to Parmenides.

[Anonymous No.15778751]

>>15777945
There were dozens of gospels written that all contradict each other, each written by some Christian/Jew. Whether they were consciously writing straight-up fiction or not, it's logically impossible for them to all be telling the truth.

[Anonymous No.15778800]

>>15778538
Imagine this was 100% true and you had the chance to walk along or at least hear this man for a day.

[Anonymous No.15778825]

>>15778800
Imagine thinking that the Gospels are an accurate eyewitness account and not a piece of mythos written decades after the events took place

[Anonymous No.15778871]

>>15777913
>the book of Isiah was written after the NT
People like you shouldn't be allowed to breathe

[Anonymous No.15778880]

>>15778871
He was referring to the NT, retard

[Anonymous No.15778885]

>>15777734
The archetypes represented by the symbols of Christ and Antichrist are the forces that have driven Western civilization for the last two thousand years.

[Anonymous No.15778894]

>>15778885
And the archetypes of the gods drove it for tens of thousands of years, but those were still removed by Christian rulers

[Anonymous No.15778916]

>>15778894
Christianity perfected pagan archetypes. Everything good about paganism was subsumed into Christianity. If it wasn’t for Christians, then western religion would have become as retarded as Hinduism.

[Anonymous No.15778917]

>>15778894
They transmuted into Christian symbols. The old stone Gods are still with us, in every Christian there is still a pagan. Sometimes they wake up, the symbol of Christ is declared dead, and they proceed to shed the blood of millions. I reference Nietzsche's announcement, the two World Wars and the various atrocities of the twentieth century. You're blind if you think rulers are what drive people.

[Anonymous No.15778935]

>>15778916
It didn’t, it completely destroyed them. Polytheism is build around having multiple options, and local concerns and accountability, both of which were completely destroyed by a universalist religion that tried to centralize the whole of divine life into a single hierarchical structure. Basically, the Church is the ancient version of the EU, and the gods were the ancient version of local communities that were forced to take on a one size fits all solution for all their problems. Luckily though, like all attempts at centralization, this attempt will fail as well. We see this right now

[Anonymous No.15778953]

>>15777734
>and all its fulfilled prophecies
you haven't read those prophecies, did you?

[Anonymous No.15778960]

>>15778953
Without calling into question legitimacy or accuracy of the gospels, I've looked at some of the prophecies he supposedly did and did not fulfill. What do I read that can reconcile (or not) the discrepancies?

[Anonymous No.15778965]

>>15778960
> he supposedly did
he did some trivial magic tricks like turning water into wine and walking on water, the actual messianic prophecies on the other hand? not so much.

[Anonymous No.15778971]

>>15778953
You don't realize how centralized many polytheistic religions were.

[Anonymous No.15778980]

>>15778965
I've seen quotations stating the incredible improbability of him fulfilling as many prophecies as he did, but question how they got the number.
It appears that he did fulfill some, but not all, unless I'm mistaken. So from a Jewish perspective Jesus isn't the messiah. I'm looking to see the arguments from both sides but I can't seem to find anything on it, like a debate or a book, and that's not even getting into the issues of questioning the text, which I think opens a whole different can of worms.

[Anonymous No.15778982]

>>15778960
Logical paradoxes are a feature of most religions, I remember Carl Jung writing something about this in the introductory chapter of Psychology and Alchemy (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). Christians believe in a deity that is three but one at the same time, a virgin that gave birth, etc. Religion doesn't describe physical reality, but psychological reality.

[Anonymous No.15778991]

>>15778980
Well the Jews, from a theological point of view, mainly have a problem with three things. The second coming, the idea that Jesus or the messiah actually is God, and the concept of the trinity.

[Anonymous No.15778998]

>>15778980
its not about how many prophecies he "fulfilled", the "prophecies" the christians claim he fulfilled are either misinterprets or straight out corruptions of the original hebrew text, an example of that is psalm 22:16. the KJV version translates it as "they have pierced my hands and my feet" like in the Septuagint in order to make it seem christological, while the original hebrew says "like a lion they are at my hands and my feet". A book that goes into this issue is "Lets get biblical". its shows the many lies and alterations that the early church did to give the death of Jesus legitimacy.

[Anonymous No.15779003]

>Homer's poetry is so sublime and profound he must have been inspired by the Muses, as he says so himself
>The discovery of Troy and evidence for its sacking prove that the Homeric epics are coherent with reality

[Anonymous No.15779017]

>>15778982
>Religion doesn't describe physical reality, but psychological reality.
What exactly does that mean? Just the impossible and miraculous? Doesn't feel especially useful.

>>15778991
I'm usually pointed to the prophecies and perhaps mistranslations of prophetic books (notably Isaiah) used as arguments against Jesus, more than what you listed. The theory of the second coming is often used because of prophecies that Jesus didn't fulfill in his first, but from what reading I've done, a theory is that they'll be two messiah's for the Jews who appear at the same time and fulfill different, contradicting prophecies, but this idea is similarly unsupported in the text.
Don't know what to say about the messiah being God or the Trinity other than "why not?" and God being so far above us that we can't understand it.

>>15778998
Thanks. I'll look into that one. Like I said, a lot of intentional mistranslation and corruption seems to be at least partially to blame. I mostly just want to get to the bottom of this and figure out who's right, so to speak.

[jesus No.15779684]

>>15778991
most have problems with these obvious axioms.

[Anonymous No.15780250]

>>15778825
They are reasonabl Tbh. We know atleast that Jesus very much successeded to convince his followers to die for his words. It's well known among the Jews that alot of people pretended to be the messiah and not just Jesus but he was the only one to gather a huge following and convince people that he's the son of God. Let's not forget that those people heard of the stories about the older prophets and their great miracles so it won't be easy to convince them that you are the son of God without any great miracles.
Let's take Mohammed case for example. Mohammed according to the Quran didn't do any miracle and every time his tribe asked him for one to prove himself he doesn't do anything and give lame excuses. It got to a point where they asked him to do any kind of miracle no matter how small it is and he never did and for a decade he was barley able to get 50 people to believe in him.
In 3 years Jesus caused so much trouble that he had to be crucified. Also you need to consider the criterion of embarrassment. Jesus character caused trouble even for early Christians, the ebonites didn't believe he was a God because of their view of some verses in Matthew. Gnosticism was also prevalent in the 1st century then came nestourians and arius and Islam took influence from heretical Christian scets in the east. Mentioning Jesus shameful death along side thiefs and murderers and all the verses and teachings that may be considered vague and some times contradictory to other verses in the same gospel. If I'm going to write about a man I consider a God, I likely wouldn't create vague verses or make him die like this.

[Anonymous No.15780271]

>>15780250
Bar Kokhba persuaded many people he was the Messiah and many died for him. This idea that Roman-era Jews would have to see first hand miracles to be convinced is false.

[Anonymous No.15780280]

Isn't Christianity kind of anti-semitic since it basically says Jewish people are wrong? Should Christianity be cancelled?

[Anonymous No.15780345]

>>15778998
>>15778980
There's no way a messiah can come anymore. The Jews had to change their beliefs and interruptions of their texts many times to avoid this embarrassment after the temple was destroyed. Now they won't be even able to know who's from the line of David and who isn't. I won't be surprised if a rabbi actually came out and said that being from the line of David and Judah is not important like their fathers thought.
https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v13-n02/four-startling-facts-about-the-identity-of-the-messiah/
>>15780271
>Bar Kokhba persuaded many people he was the Messiah and many died for him.
He isn't any different than Mohammed. Jews thought the messiah will rule them and get rid of Romans so they thought bar was the one and he punished every jew who didn't follow him. What makes Jesus special is that he was able to attract people even tho he didn't call for a revolution or ever appeared to be the warrior king messiah they wanted. There were things he did that were successfully able to convince people he's the messiah and son of God even tho he was a passive and didn't want to lead a war or bilud a kingdom on earth.

[Anonymous No.15780347]

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1zFASopkeM

Time for mass!

[Anonymous No.15780361]

>>15780345
Pacifist*.

[Anonymous No.15780600]

>>15780345
>What makes Jesus special is that he was able to attract people even tho he didn't call for a revolution or ever appeared to be the warrior king messiah they wanted.
You’re right, emperor Constantine did that for him

[Anonymous No.15780607]

>>15780347
Oh shit, Caribbean brother!

[Anonymous No.15780777]

>>15778998
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/they-pierced-my-hands-and-my-feet-or-like-a-lion-my-hands-and-my-feet-in-psalm-2216

>like a lion my hands and feet
doesn’t sound right. Also how is a Lion at your hands?

[Anonymous No.15780786]

>>15780345
>There's no way a messiah can come anymore
this

[Anonymous No.15780802]

>>15780777
Maybe it's a metaphor and his hands and feet are "like a lion". Is this why Jews are so overrepresented in literary theory because Hebrew is ambiguous as fuck.

[Anonymous No.15780810]

>>15780786
What about that dude who started the Mormons?

[Anonymous No.15780841]

>>15780810
was he born in Bethlehem? Did he come before the destruction of the second temple? Was he sacrificed? Was he a Nazarene? No.

[Anonymous No.15780886]

>>15780802
that doesn’t make sense, either. A little bit of research and you see why the KJV translation is valid.

[Anonymous No.15781030]

>>15780841
No, but he did claim to speak for God. Sounds pretty convincing to me

[Anonymous No.15781184]

>>15781030
why do you bring this up when we were specifically talking about fulfilling messianic prophecies? Why did you respond to me?

[Anonymous No.15782633]

>>15780841
The Nazarene prophecy is literally made up. There is no such prophecy in the Old Testament.

[Anonymous No.15783049]

>>15778998
https://biblehub.com/psalms/22-16.htm
"Pierced" is still a popular translation among scholars. When you just say "well the original Hebrew says...!" it shows you're not actually looking at scholarship as is. Because translation and textual criticism isn't that simple and reductive.
>while the original hebrew says "like a lion they are at my hands and my feet"
The entirety of the passage comes off as Christological, but you're only fixating on this one detail. And even your (I'm sure very scholarly) opinion on right translation still conveys an idea similar to the Crucifixion.
>shows the many lies and alterations that the early church did to give the death of Jesus legitimacy.
It doesn't lend you much credibility to simply point to a secondary source on the subject. One written by Tovia Singer, no less. A rabbinical apologist for Judaism writing a polemic, not a scholar. And he can do that, and it doesn't necessary invalidate whatever points he has. But if this is an example of what he's got? Not very strong. Especially when you make large claims about lies and deceit and knowing the motives among a very substantial ancient body of literature into scholarship. That's better left to his rabbinical theology.

[Anonymous No.15783578]

>>15778723
These threads are at least discussing actual literature. LARPing cryptofedorah.