In The West and the Rest, he asserts Islam is incompatible with western values. An example he gives is freedom of speech, and says Muslim fundamentalists want to ban porn, whereas conservatives recognize that though it's regrettable it's part of freedom of speech Is he right?

File: 500 KB, 605x903, Roger_Scruton_by_Pete_Helme.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 17:53:32 2020 No.15751526 [Reply] [Original]

In The West and the Rest, he asserts Islam is incompatible with western values. An example he gives is freedom of speech, and says Muslim fundamentalists want to ban porn, whereas conservatives recognize that though it's regrettable it's part of freedom of speech

Is he right?

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 17:55:24 2020 No.15751539
File: 106 KB, 880x1360, dugin-fpt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15751526
Islam is incompatible with liberal values since its a preliberal entity. Conservatives in the West need to throw off the shackles of 'Western values' and legitimately oppose liberalism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 17:56:33 2020 No.15751545 >>15751539 Really everybody should, it’s patently obvious how it’s not working

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 17:57:21 2020 No.15751548 >>15751539 Dugin said, Islam is the last hope of humanity in the darkness of globalism and liberalism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 17:58:21 2020 No.15751556 >>15751548 He's pretty much right, though I think Eastern Europe is more and more of a hope now.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 17:59:49 2020 No.15751567

No one actually supports unbridled free speech. Leaking classified documents or state secrets *should* be protected under free speech, but it isn't. Making direct threats to government figures *should* be covered by free speech, but obviously isn't. Completely free speech, press, and assembly is a delusion; it's inherently dangerous and impossible. What the "West" has isn't free speech. So Scruton's wrong again.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 17:59:50 2020 No.15751566 >>15751556 How so? They have rampant abortion and Putin has said that's a woman's right. Except for hating homosexuals (and homosexuality is legal in all Eastern European lands except Chechnya), what do they stand for?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:01:14 2020 No.15751576 Also, there are definitely Western Conservative Christians who have tried to make porn illegal. He clearly hasn't heard many American pastors.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:03:09 2020 No.15751599

>>15751526
>>15751539
>>15751548

Islam is against:
-drawing or sculpting any living creature
-drinking alcohol
-eating pork
-music
-dogs

most muslims over the planet think apostasy shold be punished with death

and they also have ridiculous beliefs about the tanakh/old testament being corrupted (I am not calling them inspired, I am saying muslims think it was Isaac that Abraham almost sacrifices, they think it was Ishmael, they are very late modifications of Jewish and Christian mythology)

Mohammed was Joseph Smith + Gengis Khan

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:04:20 2020 No.15751606 >>15751599 Well Ismail was the firstborn so that wouldn't be impossible. That the Kaaba was built where he was to be sacrificed was actually believed by Arab pagans

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:05:07 2020 No.15751617

>>15751556
>>15751566

Putin isn't a real right wing conservative nationalist. He is a former KGB agent and actively supports leftist and communist movements in Latin America. he is allied to Cuba and Maduro's Venezuela, and tries to get leftist governments of that kind in power in the other latam countries.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:08:14 2020 No.15751632

>>15751617
>He is a former KGB agent and actively supports leftist and communist movements in Latin America.
He supports them because they're the only states in the world that don't call Putin out for being a fraudulent tyrant (because they need a world power to support them in turn). It has nothing to do with political agenda.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:08:48 2020 No.15751640

>>15751606

We don't have any written source supporting that before the Quran got written.
The Greek septuagint was written from 300 before christ to around 120 before christ. The pentateuch is from 300 bc, I think there are some fragments from Qumran a century older.
From 400 years before christ to 600 years after christ with Islam we have a full millenium with no evidence that supports the claims of muslims about jewish and christian scripture.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:14:08 2020 No.15751674 >>15751640 There was basically no source on Arabian history except isnad until after the advent of Islam, which allowed the level of wealth necessary for libraries.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:15:51 2020 No.15751680 >>15751526 Yes he is absolutely right. If you want Islam move to some islamist shit hole.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 18:41:29 2020 No.15751839

>>15751599
>drawing or sculpting any living creature
>music
>dogs
??? Perhaps if you're abiding by the interpretation of some bearded desert fag who just wants to murder and commit pederasty. No learned Muslim scholar stands by any of those policy's stop trying to paint Islam as this anti-culture religion.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 19:06:19 2020 No.15752035

>>15751839
In fact this is the consensus in every madhhad. Dogs are only clean animals in Maliki madhhab but they still must be kept outside. Drawing animate beings in detail (all the schools mean the face) is also only permitted by this school but they cannot be put on walls. The rest is universal

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 19:54:14 2020 No.15752364 >>15751526 sounds retarded and ahistorical. western conservatives from ~1650 have been ok with more free speech than muslim countries but definitely not porn

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:14:15 2020 No.15752498 >>15752364 >western conservatives from ~1650 have been ok with more free speech than muslim countries What the fuck is this shit? Please stop posting on this board, you know where your kind is allowed to post. Keep this place civil and know your place.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:15:35 2020 No.15752509

>>15751526
>want to ban porn
Plenty of religions support banning porn. You retards aren't even real Christians.
I genuinely believe most Anglo "intellectuals", like Roger Scruton, and the royal family are involved in Satanic bullshit and debauchery.
>>15751680
I hate Islam, but if you want porn, slit your fucking throat, you god-forsaken degenerate.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:19:27 2020 No.15752522 >>15752509 According to Scruton, the defining pillar of the west is national identity before state identity, allows the state rather than dogma to be the final arbiter and allowing for greater cultural development

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:22:50 2020 No.15752550

>>15752522
>greater cultural development
There is no cultural development in porn. It encourages people to explore fetishes, adopt deviant or transgressive views, and succumb deeper into darkness (e.g., check X-Files episode Irresistible).
Scruton is just a pseudointellectual hack, much like many other Anglos, who wants to justify his debauchery.
Islam is incompatible with the West but not because it is anti-porn. Being anti-porn is the sane thing.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:26:00 2020 No.15752570 >>15752550 What's your idea of western values?

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:27:26 2020 No.15752579

>>15751526
True Christianity by any reasonable measure would also oppose and prohibit those things, Scruton wouldn’t oppose Christianity for that reason. His problem is that he conflated modern (post-enlightenment) western values and liberalism with western traditionalism reaching back thousands of years, a muddy concept regardless because it isn’t a straight line of descent it has a mixture of classical philosophy with a childish over-attachment to what is essentially a Jewish heresy with some pretense of connection to Aristotle and Plato (though their metaphysical extrapolations directly contradict Christianity, especially given the highly personal nature of the Christian God).
Conservatives often have this issue because many lack a strong ontological foundation for everything they consider good (not that progressives don’t also lack this), because as more things become tradition, more contradict one another. My views would be considered right wing but they aren’t based on some amorphous idea of maintenance of culture, there should be a central core of ideas, such as biological imperatives of competition. Conservatism lacks a core desire because it’s not a true ideology, it’s a vague outlook that shifts: Bismarck was a conservative, he believed in aristocratic power and did not like liberal democracy because he rejected the (relatively) new enlightenment liberalism; most modern conservatives would say that democracy is at the core of western ideals because they have embraced the enlightenment.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:28:40 2020 No.15752593 >>15752522 >owing for greater cultural development >> you mean world domination through exploiting your fellow men?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:29:27 2020 No.15752598 >>15752579 He specifically says in How to be a Conservative, the west as we know it starts with the Enlightenment

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:31:10 2020 No.15752614 >>15752598 Haha what the fuck, is he a Straussian? That's retarded cosmopolitan shit. Real conservatives believe that societies are living organisms with histories, good and bad.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:35:27 2020 No.15752641 >>15751566 I didn't specifically mean just Russia, but the situation there is still far better than the West. Poland, Hungary, and other nations in the former Eastern Bloc are solidly right wing now.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:35:49 2020 No.15752645 >>15752614 Huh? He has to explain the problem with immigrants and postmodernism

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:36:21 2020 No.15752650 >>15752641 >right wing An empty phrase. How do the women dress?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:36:30 2020 No.15752651 >>15751599 No one is saying the Islam is ideal, but that Islam is a real resistance to modern liberal hegemony.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:37:50 2020 No.15752660

>>15751617
Putin is a conservative, but not a traditionalist.
>actively supports leftist and communist movements in Latin America
This is actually out of Dugin's playbook. Using all available tools to fight US hegemony makes sense for a nation like Russia.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:39:06 2020 No.15752671 >>15751526 the west isnt even compatible with itself

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:39:27 2020 No.15752672 >>15752660 His playbook has nothing to do with political alliances going back to the Cold War, neither is Chinese hegemony a meaningful alternative

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:41:43 2020 No.15752685 File: 192 KB, 443x538, Two.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15752651

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:42:31 2020 No.15752692

>>15752650
Well, obviously right wing is not an exhaustive phrase, but it's adequate in the context I used it in. Most of Eastern Europe is National Conservative. I've never been to Hungary or Poland so I can't speak to how women dress there, but Orban has rolled back a number of feminist policies and has implemented a variety of pro-natal policies.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:42:35 2020 No.15752694 >>15752672 Russia and China still have a future unlike the west

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:45:11 2020 No.15752712 >>15752694 Future? Of what? Russia is in huge population decline, China is basically 1984

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:46:48 2020 No.15752723

>>15752672
>Chinese hegemony a meaningful alternative
This is false, China is increasingly becoming the center of global trade. Currently, the two powers have to rely on each other, but as the US gets more aggressive and less stable, this will be no longer true and China will be able to leverage this trade advantage to great effect.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:47:52 2020 No.15752736 >>15751526 The liberal right has zero backbone and Scruton was a prime example of this. I don't want muslims flooding my country, but at least we tend to want the same thing

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:49:05 2020 No.15752746

>>15752712
It ain't the 90's anymore, Russian birthrates already surpassed the US a number of years ago and Putin is wanting to implement programs to raise it like Orban did in Hungary. China has a booming economy and is the center of economic growth. Chinese citizens are also willing to accept that level of control since their lives have been getting materially better year by year.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:50:00 2020 No.15752754 >>15752746 Russia and China still both have terrible birthrates. Not clear how to have high birthrates in a developed country unless you're Israel

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:50:23 2020 No.15752758 >>15752723 I never said impossible, just not better >>15752746 Putin supports abortion the birth rate is plummeting

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:54:25 2020 No.15752784 File: 545 KB, 720x1078, 1583709131592.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:54:56 2020 No.15752788 File: 189 KB, 720x1104, 1584662612103.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15752784

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:55:25 2020 No.15752792 >>15752754 China doesn't need high birthrates since they have a billion people.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:56:24 2020 No.15752799 >>15752792 going to cause a demographic crisis, but knowing china they'll just holocaust their old people

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:56:26 2020 No.15752800 >>15752758 It's better for nations who can maintain independence from China, which is pretty much every country outside of Asia.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:57:08 2020 No.15752805 File: 7 KB, 277x182, images (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15752792 Gonna be a heavy burden when they age out

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 20:57:39 2020 No.15752811 >>15752800 You don't know what you're talking about lol

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:01:04 2020 No.15752831 >>15751548 so no freedom at all? this is what you're really advocating for? isn't this the worst fuckin thing ever? come on now.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:02:07 2020 No.15752845 >>15752758 >the birth rate is plummeting This is just flat out incorrect, birthrates have been rising since the Putin era, with only minor reversals in birthrate since the sanctions. Still has a higher birthrate than the US.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:02:28 2020 No.15752849 you're all retarded, islam is gonna go the same way as christianity.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:03:09 2020 No.15752852 >>15752805 See >>15752799

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:03:18 2020 No.15752854 >>15752754 >>15752799 At least they don't have a welfare state and import millions of migrants like EU and US

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:04:14 2020 No.15752860 >>15752811 >I'll just act smug and then my point will somehow be correct How is the decline of Russia's greatest geopolitical enemy not going to be beneficial for Russia?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:04:20 2020 No.15752861 >>15752849 Muslims are much more barbaric than whites, they won't cuck out as easily

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:05:53 2020 No.15752875 >>15752651 fuck that shit. give me liberalism over a wretched islamic teocracy anyday.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:06:47 2020 No.15752884 >>15751526 Christianity is also opposed to Western values, modern Western society just learned to completely ignore all the parts of the Bible that it disagrees with.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:08:00 2020 No.15752893 >>15752875 Islam isn't going to rule the West, Muslims coming here are liberalizing, not the other way around. Islam will persist only in its homelands.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:08:38 2020 No.15752899 >>15752884 this, there is a reason the church no longer controls entire countries.

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:10:41 2020 No.15752917

>>15752861
they will in the end, once you've opened the floodgates for rationalism, anything which cannot be justified on the basis of deductive reasoning ought be vociferously fought against tooth and nail, and as such tradition ought be destroyed to return to man's "default" nature of equality.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:11:52 2020 No.15752929 >>15752861 europeans didn't just suddenly get to this stage. if it happens to islam the transition will be quicker because the path has been laid out

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:12:17 2020 No.15752935 >>15752917 >man's "default" nature of equality lmao, can you give an example of whats that exactly?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:13:37 2020 No.15752949 >>15752935 the belief that in the absence of unjustified hierarchy humans will coexist in a state of moral, social, and political equilibrium.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:16:05 2020 No.15752966 >>15752860 Russia as in the state? It will be. As in combating the anti spiritual plague? It won't

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:17:01 2020 No.15752970

>>15752949
>humans will coexist in a state of moral, social, and political equilibrium
Im sorry, but thats bullshit, even without religion or tradition. maybe Im misunderstanding your point but hardline materialism will just lead to inequality as much as religion did if not even more. look at china.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:18:02 2020 No.15752981 >>15752917 We have terrorism. This is our trump card. You are not zealous because your religious text says be meek. Ours say kill a blasphemer and be rewarded. To stand for one hour in battle is worth sixty years of extra prayer

Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:22:51 2020 No.15753018

>>15752970
Technically yes, but the possibility also exists for the alternative to occur. Nature is more or less a vacuum for man in which infinite possibilities can occur. A smart person or group of smart people can decide to use their intellect to manipulate the dumber individuals in a group, but there's nothing preventing the latter from organizing and crushing them en masse, neither hobbes or rosseau would disagree with this. In the case of China you have an absolute sovereign with the cadre elite of the CCP who rule the masses. In the case of an egalitarian society, something akin to a highly contentious and violent society would be produced in its wake, and society would devolve into a more primitive state with a more simplified division of labor which prevents greater inequality as compared to today.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:37:40 2020 No.15753119 >>15752966 How not? The US is the number one exporter of liberalism.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !!oI3er5KKetj Wed Jul 1 21:45:32 2020 No.15753158
File: 972 KB, 500x269, 8B29036A-526E-459A-832A-C8EB2FA7A882.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15751526
No.
Oh man. But all Abrahamic faiths are “incompatible” with the west. It made a hash of European history. If Julian were that much more brilliant.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:47:26 2020 No.15753169 >>15751599 Sounds based to me.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 1 21:49:05 2020 No.15753179 >>15753119 You think having a bunch of corrupt dictators is going to fix the malady? Women will dress like strippers, bars will be on every corner, abortion and prostitution will rule. Only difference is dissidents will be tortured and raped

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 02:31:51 2020 No.15754734 >>15751526 At one point freedom of speech was incompatible with Western values

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 02:46:41 2020 No.15754781 >>15751617 That's realpolitik anon

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 04:23:26 2020 No.15755145 >>15752692 dude you do know that the social economic structure of a society doesn't change after a few "feminist" policies get rolled back? You're living in a fairy tale if you're thinking that

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 05:46:51 2020 No.15755414 >>15752746 Yea everyone is on board with the CCP, hence the social cedit system

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 05:49:19 2020 No.15755425 >>15751526 No, he’s wrong. Porn can easily be banned and should not be conflated with freedom of speech. >>15751548 He’s a thelemite so believe nothing he says.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 05:49:20 2020 No.15755426 >>15751526 That guy was a whining asshole

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 05:51:28 2020 No.15755432 >>15752784 >>15752788 Based Muslims

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 05:52:04 2020 No.15755434 >>15755414 social credit system is already on the west

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 06:50:52 2020 No.15755632 >>15751640 >Pentateuch >300 B.C. Anon, I can't even...

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 07:30:04 2020 No.15755769 >>15752849 this It's a mistake to believe "europe gonna be mooslim" the west will POZ islam instead

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 07:32:28 2020 No.15755778 >>15755769 I can't wait to live in a browned globohomo dystopia that will make 1984 and BNW look like a joke

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 07:39:37 2020 No.15755801 >>15752723 How is life like when suffering brain damage?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 08:42:30 2020 No.15756012 >>15755432 They're being trained to protest in the proper way.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 08:45:07 2020 No.15756019 >>15756012 It worked, different classes were given for their kids in order to be culturally sensitive

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 08:48:23 2020 No.15756028 >>15756019 How did it work. The muslim community was taught that standing on a street corner with signs was the proper way to have the system address their grievances. How'd that turn out for the black community?

Anonymous Thu Jul 2 08:51:36 2020 No.15756036
File: 349 KB, 720x905, woke.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15756028
Muslims in the UK aren't the black community, they are a ballooning demographic pouring in from Commonwealth countries and have to be appeased because they represent a major demographic block. On the other hand, Prevent constantly works to defuse them because the state is scared of them

Anonymous Thu Jul 2 08:56:56 2020 No.15756062

>>15751526
Anyone who thinks Islam is such an extreme religion is an irredemable /pol/tard. Very few who critique Islam have actually been to an Islamic country. Go to somewhere like Bahrain or Iran and you'll find people doing whatever they want really. Furthermore clerics in Saudi are increasingly approving of progressive laws that are common in the West. Islam is easily compatible with "Western values" as soon as there's a capital incentive in attracting businesses. Also Western values should better be called European values desu, Americans are freaks.

Anonymous Thu Jul 2 09:00:17 2020 No.15756078

>>15756036
Yeah, the muslim community is smaller. The government is co-opting islam little by little like every other traditionalist community. Once they've gotten what they want from the muslim community the government will push them aside into their ghetto's and move on, or work on undermining larger islamic establishments to prevent them from effectively organizing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 09:00:22 2020 No.15756079 >>15756062 Saud is a colonialist puppet regime and state as are most governments over there. They would instantly be toppled and replaced with Islamists states except for American protection (Russian in Syria)

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 09:01:37 2020 No.15756085 >>15756078 Yes smaller but ideologically very ready to kill someone for blasphemy

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 09:03:53 2020 No.15756093 >>15756085 So were the black panthers, the IRA, and tons of other ideological separatist movements.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 2 09:05:29 2020 No.15756098 >>15756093 Those are nationalist, not internationalist. Huge difference

Anonymous Thu Jul 2 09:11:57 2020 No.15756118

>>15756098
Internationalism doesn't make much of a difference. At the end of the day the combined might of all Islamic countries is not much greater than the might of Ireland. Terrorism is only effective if the media chooses to cover it in the way you want. Protest is only effective if the media chooses not to mock the idiots wearing a black dresses in the middle of a humid summer day.

Anonymous Thu Jul 2 09:15:46 2020 No.15756136

>>15756118
You don't know what you're talking about, Islamists paramilitaries are massive, ISIS alone numbers over 100,000 and operates from the Philippines to Africa. In the Middle East these paramilitaries would have easily taken over Iraq and Syria without tremendous air strikes by America and Russia. The IRA is more comparable to Fatah

Anonymous Thu Jul 2 13:04:01 2020 No.15757395

>>15751526
>Muslim fundamentalists want to ban porn
Its more complex then that, because Islam is not Western, it both wants to ban and spread degeneracy, because Muslims dont follow Western logic.

So porn is taboo, but having an 11 year old sex slave is not. Flaunting homosexuality is bad, but if its hidden its okay.

Anonymous Thu Jul 2 13:17:40 2020 No.15757471

>>15751526
Even if Islam is fundamentally anti-liberal it doesn't matter. The key is separation of religion from all public spheres. Most Westerners have never been that liberal but that doesn't matter. What you call Western values just "work" better presumably so dominate. You can't enforce something that doesn't work without getting problems.

>>15752723
I don't know if you haven't been paying attention to anything but the US state department has begun a massive destabilization campaign against the Chinese communist party. All the major economies are standing closely with America in a remarkable manner.

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