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/lit/ - Literature

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15745511 No.15745511 [Reply] [Original]

How would he have seen the USSR and communist China?

>> No.15745517

>>15745511
Read Georgi Plekhanov if would like to know.

>> No.15746576

karl Marx more like karl fartx

>> No.15746581

OP more like faggot

>> No.15747664

They ignored his writings

>> No.15748016

>>15747664
but you would follow them to a T, naturally

>> No.15748022

>>15745511
Marx is the midwit's philosopher.

>> No.15748197

>>15745511
Read his Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League from March 1950 and then read what Stalin and Mao did with regards to the Chinese revolution, and you'll know.

>>15748022
He isn't a philosopher.

>> No.15748207

>>15748197
1850*

>> No.15748214

The Paris Commune experiment lasted 7 months. The Leninist experiment lasted 70 years. Hopefully the next one will last 700.

>> No.15748267

>>15745511
He would be very opposed to Lenin's rejection of capitalist development, Marx made it clear that socialism should be built upon the infrastructure made possible by capital.
When Marx condemned the atrocities committed by the brits in the publications on the New York Tribune, he also added:
>"England has to fulfill a double mission in India: one destructive, the other regenerating the annihilation of old Asiatic society, and the laying the material foundations of Western society in Asia."
You'd think this was written by some far-right imperialist, but from Marx's perspective the damage had already been done, the good approach is to play the long game and wait until India's industries are advanced enough to revolt against the brits without starving to death.

>> No.15748279

>>15748214
Like CHAZ?

>> No.15748282

>>15748214
The Leninist experiment only managed to last because Stalin prioritized industrialization over the well being of workers, that is not what Marx sought.

>> No.15748394

>>15748282
Quick industrialization is what saved the Soviets from the Nazi threat.

>> No.15748404

>>15748394
>not being communist is what allowed a bunch of assholes to be powerful
would you look at that

>> No.15748406

He would have burned all his writings and killed himself.

>> No.15748416

>>15748282
Remember that the violation of the "well being" is necessary when you need to overthrown the existing social values.

>> No.15748427

>>15748416
why not be more open about what you're saying
>im allowed to torture and kill you because you have bad thoughts
there we go doesn't that feel better

>> No.15748428

>>15745511
He would love Deng Xiaoping.

>> No.15748437

>>15748427
True brother

>> No.15748467

>>15748394
That's just alt history rumbling, I could say that nazis wouldn't exist if commies didn't take power in Russia either, since they came as a reaction to the left.
>>15748416
No it isn't, you're just romanticizing state tyranny because muh greater good.
If what you're saying were the case no one would subscribe to your ideology.

>> No.15748517

>>15745511
Like what they were, State Capitalism. Kautsky was very critique of Lenin, even before the octobre 1917 revolution.

>> No.15748518

>>15748467
I'm not a commie fuck that shit, I'm just reminding that guy what he is saying is just the way communism must be

>> No.15748643

>>15745517
Not OP here, what should I read specifically?

>> No.15748649
File: 83 KB, 1500x500, lumpencommunism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15748649

>>15745511
>How would he have seen the USA.

>> No.15748663

>>15748267
>He would be very opposed to Lenin's rejection of capitalist development, Marx made it clear that socialism should be built upon the infrastructure made possible by capital.
I really don't know much about gommunism but this really seems like an important distinction. It seems clear as day to me that you can't just jump from Feudal Peasantry to Communism

>> No.15748667

>>15748649
The consequences of capitalism have been far worse than he or anyone could have imagined.

>> No.15748677 [DELETED] 

>>15748649
Stay on topic, kile

>> No.15748678

>>15748667
They were already imagined in as early as 1881 >>15745576

>> No.15748681
File: 11 KB, 279x200, Dom Deleuze.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15748681

>>15748667
Yeah, a lot of the French Marxists came to this conclusion as they progressed into Neo-Marxists and saw the teleology of Marxist Theory.
No wonder so many of them became depressed late in life.

>> No.15748685

>>15748404
> Quick industrialization
> Not communist

>> No.15748687

>>15748649
Stay on topic, kike.

>> No.15748689

Probably that they were decent attempts

>> No.15748690

>>15748685
communism is the workers owning the means of production sweatie

>> No.15748697

>>15745511
Probably that it was doomed to fail because neither were advanced Capitalist economies at the time of their revolutions.

>> No.15749112

>>15748214
The communist Soviet Union lasted 10 years. The remaining 60 were a counter-revolution dedicated to delaying the future revolution in time as much as possible.

>>15748267
>Lenin's rejection of capitalist development
What the fuck does that even mean? Read The Tax in Kind you retard. The citation from his earlier pamphlet he opens with literally starts with the sentence "State capitalism would be a step forward as compared with the present state of affairs in our Soviet Republic."

>>15748517
Kautsky was a moron who rejected the basis of Marxism, i.e. the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat, and Lenin never pretended that the Soviet Union was economically socialist.

>>15748685
Rapid development of industry is literally one of the most defining characteristics of capitalism.

>>15748697
They didn't need to be advanced. Marx did research on Russian peasant communes and concluded that they can serve as the basis of socialism in Russia as long as there's also revolution in the industrialized West. This answer has become outdated by the XX century because of the development of capitalism in Russia, but the point is that every single place in the world doesn't need super-developed capitalism in order to take part in the communist revolution. Industrial goods can be transported, you know.
The actual problem with Russia and China was that their communist parties have been completely hijacked by bourgeois interests around 1927 and they became counter-revolutionary instruments of nationalist governments.

>> No.15749165

>>15745511
Nobody gives a shit about his pseud opinion.
Marx was a sheltered theoryfag. This fag caused way more harm to socialism by pointing out the contradictions of capitalism then the capitalists themselves. If it wasn't for him or his porkie master we would have achieved communism by now.
So
FUCK MARX
FUCK ENGELS

>> No.15749227

>>15749165
Who is the aristocracy under communism? The answer to that dictates how appealing communism is.

>> No.15749414

>>15748681
Deleuze was never a Marxist. Stop insulting him.

>> No.15749446

In the Drafts of the Civil War in France - Marx described socialism, communism as essentially a system of federated, self managed communes. These types of communes pre-date Marx i..g they were really popular in the United States, and even in Russia, before the Russian Revolution. Marx, Engels & Lenin all favored gradual collectivization - the Bolsheviks attempted to do this via market forces, with NEP, (read Lenin's On Cooperation), and Nikolai Bukharin was one the few people opposed the Stalinist collectivization that killed so many people for gradual, market based socialism.
The problem is people conflate Boleshivism with the many alternatives to socialism, and ignore the people, like Ryutin, who tried to stop Stalin - even going as far as using violence to remove him.

>> No.15749455

Who?

>> No.15749577

>>15748197
Ofc he is, the only way to truly think about his work is in a philosophical manner, all his economic theories where refuted.

>> No.15749597

>>15749577
Well then he is worthless, since he is neither a philosopher nor an economic thinker.

>> No.15749622

>>15745511
Dont think he would be too impressed

>> No.15749626

He would be one of those people tearing down statues

>> No.15749993

>>15749597
>Well then he is worthless
Everybody but Marxists already know that.

>> No.15750123

>>15748649
>pebblecast

>> No.15750142

>>15748279
was't chaz anarkiddies?

>> No.15750159

>>15745511
>communist China
?

>> No.15750192

>>15745517
>Plekhanov
Jesus, no. Compare Marx and Engels in 1848 and Plekhanov in 1905 to see how little they have in common when it comes to using Marxist theories to guide political practice

>> No.15750215

>>15748279
chaz is ongoing, they unironically just killed a black 16 year old lmao

>> No.15750288

>>15748282
>over the well being of workers, that is not what Marx sought.
Marx was not a populist and his biggest concern was not the short-term, immediate welfare of workers.

>> No.15750326

>>15750288
>his biggest concern was not the short-term, immediate welfare of workers.
I sure hope you mention this part to workers if you ever try to get them on board

>> No.15750412

>>15748267
Lenin was completely in agreement with that and before the revolution a lot of his programmes revolved around helping capitalism take off in Russia, e.g. look how he approached the agrarian question and used the US as an example to follow.

Even during the revolution that didn't change, There's a book called On State Capitalism During the Transition to Socialism that is basically a collection of articles and letters of Lenin saying basically that, all written after 1917. In several of those he defends capitalism against Left Communists who rejected the notion of a transitional stage and wanted to see it abolished completely.

>> No.15750485

>>15750326
Literally every Communist Party in history has.

>> No.15750650

>>15750192
Seething tankie.

>> No.15751521

>>15745511
>hidden hand
he would be pleased that his diabolical plan had come to fruition