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/lit/ - Literature

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15714844 No.15714844 [Reply] [Original]

Was Tolkien a net positive for the current state of fantasy?

>> No.15714912

Positive for literature as a whole, not for fantasy

>> No.15714943

0*(1+x)=0*(1-x)= 0

>> No.15714986

>turned the entire genre into sameshit

>> No.15714990

>>15714986
read more books

>> No.15714995

he's gonna get grass stains on his fine woolen suit :(

>> No.15715022

>>15714844
Tolkien cannot be held accountable for shitty contemporary fantasy. It would have been shitty whether he wrote LotR or not; just a different flavour.

>> No.15715106

>>15714995
You'll never make friends with the Ents with an attitude like that sonny Jim.

>> No.15715134

>>15714844
Yes. He changed the way humans use their imagination.
All science fiction is literally just LOTR in space.
1000s of computer games and TV shows, movies, comics, card games, and board games have been inspired by him.

I personally think he is a very boring writer, but his influence cannot be denied.

>> No.15715152

It's not his fault almost every modern fantasy writer is dogshit, and just copy and pastes his work + DnD and whatever mythology they like.

>> No.15715178

>>15714844>>15714912
>>15714986

Nobody cares about Aragon’s tax policy, George.

>> No.15715199

>>15714844
Well, he practically fucking created it so...

>> No.15715206

>>15714844
Why do linguists make the best writers?

>> No.15715214

>>15715178
I don’t get this (meme?)

>> No.15715230

>>15715214
> “Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?” – (GRRM on Tolkein)

>> No.15715246
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15715246

>>15715134
>I personally think he is a very boring writer, but his influence cannot be denied.
yeah i hate to say it but this

Can someone change my mind?(read silmarillion but young age)

>> No.15715274

>>15715134
>All science fiction is literally just LOTR in space.
....mate have you actually read any sci-fi? You clearly know nothing about the genre.
Fuck off

>> No.15715277

>>15715246
>>15715134
He's a great writer in the Anglo-Saxon style of keeping things simple and straightforward

>> No.15715285

>>15714844
Actually, I don’t think contemporary fantasy imitates him enough. Most of it owes more to pulp fiction than Tolkien.

>> No.15715292

>>15715246
I don't find him boring but if you read his derivatives before you read him you can tell pretty much where his story is going. That is not a problem with him but with contemporary authors having no imagination or ability to do anything but copy him.

>> No.15715300

>>15715230
>Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Yes. And it was based.

>> No.15715323

>>15715230
>>15715300
Don't Orcs reproduce through rape that ends in the death of the mother, and digging holds in the ground that the shit into? They don't actually have "baby orcs", right?

>> No.15715331

It doesn't matter. He wasn't trying to write a genre fantasy work in the modern sense. How later genre writers chose to utilize his ideas is irrelevant.

>> No.15715343

>>15715230
You can always count on leftists to sympathize with evildoers and criminals instead of their victims.

>> No.15715364
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15715364

>>15714986
Tolkien is the Plato of Fantasy.
Not their fault people can't top them without using them as a foundation.

>> No.15715474

>>15715323
Tolkien could never quite make up his mind on the nature of the orcs. His earliest writings imply that orcs were made out of the earth, whereas later accounts suggest that they reproduce sexually, which means that there must be female orcs out there somewhere. The Uruk-Hai of Isengard were bred through the rape of human women though.

>> No.15715504

>>15715474
>which means that there must be female orcs out there somewhere
I'm gonna be pedantic and point out that this isn't technically necessary, as in a strict sense sexual reproduction doesn't require biological genders. They could be like flatworms, and literally puncture each other with their penises to cause impregnation, therefore being a very weird sort of hermaphrodite.

Which is really besides the point as the quip that Gurrm is making ("ZOMG THINK OF THE CHILDRENNNNNNNNNNN") doesn't work out as their very reproductive system as a whole is inherently malicious (from the perspective of a human in a world with very clear black and white morality).

>> No.15715545

>>15715246
Nah. He purposefully imitates a detached style of medieval epic compared to a more character-driven literature of modern age. But then again, hobbits' characterization and their dialogues are vastly different from outsiders since they are basically readers' self-inserts.

>> No.15715906

>>15715230
i've no opinion on GRRM but i find this point pretty boring. it's similar the trendy new stuff like nk jemisin that wants to make fantasy conform to modern liberal morality. it's fine to do those things but part of what makes fantasy interesting is how divorced it is from modern standards of both ethics and storytelling and the possibilities inherent when you write in a world where divine right of kings etc really does apply.

>> No.15715911

Uh, excuse me.

Did not Tolkien steal from the Finns?

>> No.15715984

>>15715911
The best fantasy is inspired by Norse mythology. Tolkien and Robert E. Howard prove this.

>> No.15716049

>>15715984
Howard didn’t know bunk about actual mythology. He was a pulp writer through-and-through.

>> No.15716089
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15716089

>>15714844
The Tom Bombadil chapters of LOTR are based, everything else in that book sucks ass

>> No.15716105

>>15715906
>it's fine to do those things but part of what makes fantasy interesting is being able to escape into a world where I can be a racist and oppress people with impunity
It's time to cancel fantasy.

>> No.15716111

>>15715230
This is a very midwit take that it hurts.

>> No.15716115

>>15714844
Tolkien is a good writer but if LoTR didn't exist fantasy would be a far more interesting genre

>> No.15716123

>>15716089
He should have been in the films.

>> No.15716138

>>15714844
He's the greatest fiction writer ever, regardless of genre.

>> No.15716150

>>15716105
>oppress people
I mean... they literally, LITERALLY aren't people.

>> No.15716156

>>15716115
Can't blame Tolkien just because everyone copies him. Your argument is just a testament to Tolkien's fantasy being greater than everyone elses.

>> No.15716318

>>15716123
Peter Jackson changed the tone of the story drastically and Tom wouldn't have fit, besides taking up time they needed for other things. What I'd like is an ecranisation that would try to keep the tone and adapt everything faithfully – though it would definitely need to be an animation for that to be possible.

>> No.15716351

>>15716049
>didn’t know bunk about actual mythology
Shut you whore mouth. He was no academic, but his knowledge of ancient history, places, peoples, and myths was expansive, and you can see it in his writing.

>> No.15716371

>>15714844
Tolkien was a papist and thus net negative to the human race.

>> No.15717504

>>15716156
Why do people keep on copying him?

>> No.15717515

>>15717504
Because they are talentless hacks

>> No.15717664

>>15715364
this

>> No.15717764

>>15714912
You realize that all literature is fantasy, right?
>>15714844
Of course. It's your own fault if you waste time on cheap knockoffs

>> No.15717860

>>15717515
I assume a lot of modern fantasy writers haven't read Ossian or Novalis?

>> No.15717873

>>15714844
He turned fantasy into the capeshit adventure genre it is today. I'd say that's a net negative.

>> No.15717929

>>15714844
Positive - that modern hacks rip off the LOTR rather than the Silmarillion is their loss.

>> No.15718999

>>15717929
Silmarillion is way too boring. Only moderately cool parts are leaving the original elf homeland and thurin

>> No.15720607

>>15715364
>Tolkien is the Plato of Fantasy.
You can't explain why nor will you elaborate.

>> No.15720613

>>15716138
That is some seriously shit taste to be quite honest. I like Tolkien but broaden your horizons.

>> No.15720701

Anglos are bad writers. Tolkien peaked at the Hobbit.