[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 98 KB, 1082x1045, 1591626529801.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15606131 No.15606131 [Reply] [Original]

So, I want to get into philosophy and started with the Greeks. After diving into the basics of mythology I finished the Iliad and currently I'm trying to make sense of it. There are a lot of interesting themes in this book but while reading I sometimes got the feeling reading an ancient poem version of The Avengers. There was good stuff and there was mundane stuff. That's not necessarily bad, but I'm wondering what do I need to get out of the Iliad in order to understand Plato and Aristotle?

I got an idea but I'm a brainlet and afraid that I focused and overanalyzed irrelevant stuff. So I would like to hear /lit/'s opinion on that:

The main thing I took away is that Ancient Greece was all about class and hierarchy. Power and glory did not came to the one who struggled for it but to the one who was destined for it, either by fate, gods, ancestry or social rank. The clearest manifestation is in the penultimate book:

>Achilles holds a chariot race to honor the death of Patroclus
>Antilochus has the shittiest horses, but tries to win the race not by strength but by cleverness
>He races head to head with Menelaus who has a higher rank, better horses and should be destined to come in before Antilochus
>However, Antilochus has the bigger balls and so he rushes towards the turning point not giving a fuck what happens when they both crash
>This strategy works, Menelaus chickens out, Antilochus comes in second, Menelaus third (the winner Diomedes won because the Gods interfered with the race)
>Menelaus goes full Karen and blames Antilochus of foul game
>Antilochus is smart enough to appease Menelaus by offering him his price
>Manelaus gets his shit together and relinquishes the price to Antilochus
>However, he warns Antilochus "to never overtake someone who is better than you"

But Menelaus was not better, because then he would have won, Homer. Of course you could say that Menelaus just acts retarded, but usually when a character does something "bad" (in the sense: Homer perceived it as bad) in the Iliad other characters stepped in to correct them, but this does not happen in this case. To me this shows that Homer (and the Ancient Greeks) also thought that Menelaus was clearly the better driver because of his rank.

>> No.15606343

leveraging the life of Menelaus during the race was not wise, kings are of Zeus,even Achilles sheaths his sword that he started to take out when fighting with agamemnon

>> No.15606402

also everyone on the greek side is fighting to restore Helen to Menelaus so antilochus is putting the whole campaign in jeopardy more so then Achilles wrath

>> No.15606430

>>15606131
Iliad is Plato's myth Odyssey is Aristotle's. If you want to see their philosophies in action those are the two best examples

>> No.15606527

>>15606343
>>15606402
By this logic Menelaus is putting the campaign in jeopardy by participating in the race in the first place. And his rage is seems not to be about the dangerous act of Antilochus but about the fact that he was defeated even though he “is better”

>> No.15606545

>>15606430
elaborate or you're stretching it

>> No.15606548

>>15606430
Fucking hell.

>> No.15606567

>>15606545
Sure iliad is about ideal traits (some are anachronistic such as stubbornness but this is object oriented mind). Odyssey is not about any ideal traits. Any particular island or enemy he faces must be different and changed or he loses which is very aristotelian

>> No.15606592

>>15606527
Menelaus also fights on the battlefield

>> No.15606595

>>15606567
Granted I think iliad misses out on that they had to use the horse to get in. It contradicts the whole point imo but it might be abstracted back towards something else

>> No.15606615

>>15606592
But this is something I get. It’s about honor. Not fighting would mean being a coward, especially when everybody else fights for you cause. But participating in a chariot race for some minor prizes?

>> No.15606672

>>15606615
a ''minor prize'' is also honor its literally geras

>> No.15607893 [DELETED] 
File: 307 KB, 1200x1434, hesse.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
15607893

Please /lit/, tell me what to think about Hesse. Is he based or cringe?

>> No.15607948

>>15606131
>What the fuck is the Iliad about?
gay sex