/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15600567]

Oral Tradition>Literature

[Anonymous No.15600591]

>>15600567
Not wrong. Can you believe that Western academics actually doubted the existence of an oral tradition for a long time because "hurr durr, I can't remember fuck all, and I must be smarterer because I can READ and WRITE so how could the ancients have remembered STORIES"?

[Anonymous No.15600603]

>>15600567
She's kinda ugly.

[Anonymous No.15600618]

>>15600603
>she

[Anonymous No.15600619]

The ultimate synthesis is using a book to tell a story

[Anonymous No.15600628]

>>15600567
Varg uniroincally believes the same thing for the same reason. Is horseshoe theory real, bros?

[Anonymous No.15600634]

>>15600567
oral tradition is kinda the mother of literature tho
many say that maybe the illiad was oral first and only became written centuries later
same for poetry (which was kinda, like it or not, what's basically rap today)

[Anonymous No.15600638]

>>15600567
>Ablist
Is she implying books are bad because illiterate people can't enjoy them?

[Anonymous No.15600644]

>>15600567
these people need to be stopped.

[Anonymous No.15600652]

>>15600567
Finally someone had the guts to denounce this nonsense. Imagine being stuck to paper. Why not memorize everything and utilize smartphones reproduce audiobooks? You can even preach your favorite books at the agora.

[Anonymous No.15600705]

Not playing Vidya in VR and literally becoming a character in a story and experiencing it personally fully immersed in simulacrum. Topkek, cavemen still talking by making mouth noises face to face instead of instantly transfering data and context across continents at the speed of light. Still transcribing ink symbols on tree carcasses instead of beaming pure mathematics between silicon crystals

[Anonymous No.15600716]

>>15600567
racist ablism is a concept that was passed down via the oral tradition in non-european cultures no doubt

[Anonymous No.15600727]

>>15600567

[Anonymous No.15600728]

>>15600705
You're going to set this all up and then spend hundreds of hours having an immersive book reading of all the texts in Skyrim VR or some shit.

[Anonymous No.15600741]

>>15600567
To be fair, oral is always the best version of anything

[Anonymous No.15600749]

>>15600567
>Return to tradition

[Anonymous No.15600769]

>>15600567
oral transmission is just an another medium of literature
also, regarding that moronic tweet, European academics have studied oral literature quite intensely during the 19th and 1st half of 20th century roughly

>>15600634
>many say that maybe the illiad was oral first and only became written centuries later
That's not really debated at this point - the way it is told resembles other oral epic poetry (see the studies of Parry and Lord), while more modern, written epics clearly don't need or use the features used by oral epics
>same for poetry
all forms of literature began in orality
also, no, oral poetry was not what rap is today, fuck off with that cancer

[Anonymous No.15600782]

>>15600567
The oral tradition basically lives on in movie adaptions, I know it’s not the same thing but it’s basically a big budget version of orators. And those aren’t usually better than the books. No it’s best to cut out the middleman of performance altogether and just read the damn thing. The oral tradition is irrelevant now since illiteracy isn’t as rampant (at least in first world countries)

[Anonymous No.15600795]

>>15600769
>also, no, oral poetry was not what rap is today, fuck off with that cancer
>implying no one today knows the tale of the Fresh Bel Air Prince.

[Anonymous No.15600798]

>>15600638
Are you implying she put any thoughts in the words she typed while she was giving Jamal some oral tradition?

[Anonymous No.15600823]

>>15600782
>The oral tradition basically lives on in movie adaptions
it doesn't, you drooling retard

[Anonymous No.15600857]

>>15600823
People memorize the script of the script of a story and then tell it. There are extra steps now and more than one orator but it’s basically the evolution. What’s incorrect about this?

[Anonymous No.15600861]

>>15600567
Only /lit/ could come up with this fucking opinion.

Oral tradition passed down the structures of stories. Literature gives each author a chance to add complexity to the bare bone strucure, both in language and substance.

It died out naturally when it was no longer useful, stop pretending you're woke about some academic cucks somewhere controlling the course of history.

[Anonymous No.15600876]

>>15600861
>It died out naturally when it was no longer useful
It did not die out, you're such a blep.

[Anonymous No.15600878]

>>15600591

That's obviously bullshit. Because anyone with any sense understands that writing was invented at some point, and how else would people have transferred information before then?

[Anonymous No.15600885]

>>15600857
Yes this is correct.

Movies also fulfil the purpose of gripping generations at a time with story structure that supposedly captures the zeitgeist.

>>15600861
Adding to my post here that oral tradition is no longer needed.

[Anonymous No.15600889]

>>15600861
what are audio books?

[Anonymous No.15600898]

>>15600857
That's still not oral transmission, because the primary format of the text is the fixed one - written down in the scenario - and its transmission is also not oral in the original sense of the word - it is recorded, repeated ad libitum exactly as it was recorded. Oral literature did not and does not work that way.

[Anonymous No.15600906]

>>15600567
The reason hellenism died out is because it was beaten by a written tradition. Christianity is the religion with the greatest emphasis on the word and the book, both of which are God. And due to those conditions it surpassed all else.

[Anonymous No.15600910]

>>15600889
Written literature recited aloud for illiterate drones like yourself

[Anonymous No.15600914]

>>15600876
>>15600889

Would wager that paying someone with a nice voice to read from a book and recording it is not the same as oral tradition, but yes oral.

[Anonymous No.15600917]

>>15600878
There was disbelief that people would learn the poems consistently. Some of the first people to seriously suggest otherwise were Milman Parry and Albert Lord, and they were able to do that because oral tradition continued in the Balkans.

[Anonymous No.15600927]

>>15600914
Double blep. Oral epic poetry is still found today in the gusla tradition of the Balkans.

[Anonymous No.15600935]

>>15600927
>>15600876
>blep

[Anonymous No.15600943]

>>15600927
Ok then

[Anonymous No.15600947]

>>15600898
It’s more like this: one movie = one orator. There are many different adaptions of the same book, each slightly different and making changes on the original. This the differences between the different orations

[Anonymous No.15600950]

>>15600935
Check out this speud reddit lover.

[Anonymous No.15600951]

>>15600567
>44.3K views

Why does this drooling retard have such a large platform to say any kind of bullshit that crosses her mind?

[Anonymous No.15600956]

She could give me some oral tradition if you catch my drift

[Anonymous No.15600961]

>>15600567

[Anonymous No.15600980]

The woke worldview is almost identical to Varg's, except replace Christians with white people and white people with "BIPOC"

[Anonymous No.15600981]

>>15600947
>It’s more like this: one movie = one orator
It's not
>There are many different adaptions of the same book, each slightly different and making changes on the original
A film does not have to be an adaptation. It does not even have to contain a single word in it.
I guess that at this point you're just typing garbage trying to come off as smart. Sadly, people have written many studies on the status and nature of oral literature, far more careful than equating films with orality, and it would be lovely if you read some of it before you start spewing this bullshit at other people.

[Anonymous No.15600994]

>>15600634
Gilgamesh was made for reading, fuck the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.15601008]

>tfw you imagine all the genuinely mentally ill and schizo people who operate inside of modern progressive ideologies in perfect camouflage
>tfw you realize a lot of these people are in leadership positions because the more milquetoast mob systematically steps to the side when the mentally ill person marches to the front and screams slogans the loudest with no shame and no self-awareness

[Anonymous No.15601014]

>>15600603
>she
Looks like a 6'5'' tranny

[Anonymous No.15601027]

>>15601008
I can feel myself becoming more reactionary with each interaction I have with these people.

[Anonymous No.15601043]

>>15600981
Post some that you think are good

[Anonymous No.15601047]

Yes.

[Anonymous No.15601087]

>>15600981
I’m not saying that all film is the new oral tradition, but film adaptions of literature are an evolution of the same thing. I would like to hear what the actual arguments are against this instead of just being told I’m wrong. You got any links to those studies? Sound interesting

[Anonymous No.15601088]

>>15600567
Telepathically-transmitted schemata>>>> all the rest

[Anonymous No.15601098]

>>15600914
>>15600910
Of course it's not the same but there are "Books" that were designed to be audio book form their inception; as well as ,since at least the sixties with the African queen specifically cosign to mind, renditions of movies completely remade and "acted" for radio broadcasts.
I would say its a stretch to claim oral tradition is dead.

[Anonymous No.15601114]

>>15601098
I think the main difference would be that those stories don’t get passed down and told by new orators, who will put their own spin on the story. The performance must be legitimately different every time you see it and the story must not be based on a written piece of literature, but passed down through word of mouth.

[Anonymous No.15601122]

lol oral

[Anonymous No.15601222]

>>15601043
I've mostly read texts written in my native language and geared towards its corpus, but of the English texts, Havelock's "The Muse Learns to Write" is the most popular one. Jakobson's and Bogatyrev's "Folklore as a Special Form of Creation" is also important.

>>15601087
>You got any links to those studies?
>>15600769
>European academics have studied oral literature quite intensely during the 19th and 1st half of 20th century roughly

>I’m not saying that all film is the new oral tradition, but film adaptions of literature are an evolution of the same thing
They're not. It is clear what oral literature is, its mechanics, socal function, etc., while your theories just cause confusion and do not really explain anything about film or oral lit. (Only in this last post did you start talking about film adaptations of novels, while before you used to talk about film in general. It's pretty much never possible to tell at all whether a film is an adaptation or not, that's how irrelevant that aspect is.)
Forms in art do not "evolve", to say that is a nonsensical application of biology on culture. Certain oral literary forms such as the joke and the aphorism still exist well over a century since film has become the most popular artistic form in western cultures.
Simply, you do not present clearly what oral literature is (because you don't know, just pulling shit out of your ass), what are its essential qualities, and what film has to do with them. I said above, and I'll repeat it more clearly now - oral literature is that which is created without the aid of writing (or some other way of fixing verbal material into a solid state, such as audio recordings) and is transmitted orally as well. Literature that is created by being written down being read aloud afterwards is not oral, and literature that is created orally and is at one point written down/recorded (what happened to Homer, possibly) is (in its written/recorded form) only a document/simulation of the truly oral text (and it is not oral itself).
We can also get into the question of the social role of oral literature, which will also turn out to be very different from the role of film.

[Anonymous No.15601230]

>>15600603
>kinda

[Anonymous No.15601234]

>>15600628
kek

[Anonymous No.15601240]

>>15600567
shut the fuck up meth whore. the only oral tradition your ancestors gave you is giving blowjobs

[Anonymous No.15601243]

>>15601222
>I've mostly read texts written in my native language and geared towards its corpus, but of the English texts, Havelock's "The Muse Learns to Write" is the most popular one. Jakobson's and Bogatyrev's "Folklore as a Special Form of Creation" is also important.
And also - Ong - Orality and Literacy

[Anonymous No.15601247]

>>15600628
varg is so retarded he doent even understan medel's law. Saw that shit in a video i randomly picked out of like 50 videos of varg some schizo posted yesterday

[Anonymous No.15601281]

>>15601222
Thanks I’ll check those out, as for the other posts I’ve been unclear, but I was alway referring to movie adaptations of written stories. My companion was that movie adaptations are the modern westerner’s closest thing to the oral tradition that they are exposed to. In that they are stories plus the performances aspect. They obviously are not a one to one exact comparison to each other, but I do think that there are echoes of the oral tradition in film and even more so in live theater.
My use of “evolution” is not supposed to mean that I am literally applying the theory of evolution to art forms, more so using the term to say that I believe the more “modern day” (yes I know that the oral tradition lives on in the modern day in certain places and certain aspects of life) equivalent is film adaptations. I will admit though that I am not as educated as I should be to be saying much of this and hope to change that with reading what you posted and more on the subject. But I am saying that my idea of the “evolution” of the oral tradition in the west probably looked something like this oral story -> live theater -> film. That’s what I meant by evolution and I am basing this on absolutely nothing except for my lacking understanding of the history of these things so you’re right there I suppose that I probably just typed that without thinking too hard about what I was saying.

[Anonymous No.15601337]

>>15600727
Horizon Zero Dawn 2 Graphics are sorta shit

[Anonymous No.15601359]

>>15600591

Reasons why books are better
>get the whole story
>doesn't change
>is accessable at any time, don't have to rely on your memory
>learn new words
>always more comprehensive, unless your storyteller takes 12h to tell their story.
>available in audio format for oral learners.

Reasons why storytelling is better
>uhhhh buht muh american indians doe!!!

[Anonymous No.15601365]

>>15601359
>>uhhhh buht muh american indians doe!!!
Can you imagine being an American?

[Anonymous No.15601368]

>>15601122
haha nice

[Anonymous No.15601387]

>>15601281
>the “evolution” of the oral tradition in the west probably looked something like this oral story -> live theater -> film
The problem is that oral literature comfortably coexisted with various forms of theater for centuries, and theater still lives as well, not essentially superseded by film (though it has obviously surpassed it in popularity).
>My companion was that movie adaptations are the modern westerner’s closest thing to the oral tradition that they are exposed to. In that they are stories plus the performances aspect
In that regard, possibly, but the problem is the following: oral epics do not have external source material from which they're an expression of, that source exists only as an abstraction in the singer's and the audience's mind which then the singer performs with slight (unintended and unimportant to the singer's mind) differences from occassion to occassion. (A better comparison that I've come across is with jazz music, except that the composer as a concrete person in the case of oral epics does not exist.) On the other hand, film adaptations work 100% independantly of the viewer's knowledge of the novel, the people are aware that the film is essentially a creation of the director or some other authorial figure (aided by other people whose names we see listed in the credits), and not a text whose legitimacy is gained by belonging to the culture and tradition that surrounds you.
If a curious person tries to watch several adaptations of the same novel, he'll likely come across wildly different adaptations, because they all bear the mark of the director's authorial creation and originality, whereas oral singers were not inventing but re-creating more or less familiar and typical stories that frequently related to the audience's cultural experience and tradition - known names, known heroes, known situations, upholding of the culture's typical moral values, etc.

[Anonymous No.15601404]

>>15600705
>Not playing Vidya in VR and literally becoming a character in a story and experiencing it personally fully immersed in simulacrum.
An adult typed this.

[Anonymous No.15601405]

>>15600567
Borges has a written a nice essay about this, can't find the english title. I remember him saying that ancient Greeks saw the written word as inferior

[Anonymous No.15601408]

>>15601281
And, also, no, theater's performer-audience relationship is oral, but author-performer is still written (dramatic text). There is also, however, folk theater which was not written down, but I suppose you were thinking of Sophocles, Shakespeare, etc. and not folk theater.

[Anonymous No.15601443]

>>15601405
There's a fun observation by Barthes in his Variations on Writing, where he notes how it seems that the oldest writings we have, those from Mesopotamia, generally do not concern themselves with culture and life, and are mostly just dull reports about trade. The truly exciting and valuable elements of life did not demand to be documented and fixed.

[Anonymous No.15601471]

>>15600567
Augustine on suicide watch

[Anonymous No.15601478]

>>15600567
yeah because the written word was a concept entirely made up by COLONIAL Europe lmao

[Anonymous No.15601503]

>>15601405
>>15601443
No shit. Talking is better than reading books, since the last are 90% fillers or too dense. If you are talking you get the info you want and need and in a more natural way. This only changes with very complex gramatics.

[Anonymous No.15601507]

>>15601478
just like slavery, yes

[Anonymous No.15601520]

>>15600628
>he takes a larping sociopath seriously
He’s retarded and romanticising a culture that were only barely above abbos is cringe

[Anonymous No.15601554]

>>15601222
The Muse Learns to Write looks good. I just ordered a copy

[Anonymous No.15601572]

>publishing this message, in writing, to the internet
Everything is so absurd. I love it.

[Anonymous No.15601592]

>>15601247
Link? I'm in the mood to laugh at retards.

[Anonymous No.15601707]

>>15601507
what's worse is the chattel slavery argument is somehow still more valid than this shit ass take of a tweet

[Anonymous No.15601958]

>>15600567
>oral tradition is better
>books are ablist
yeah fuck off
t. deaf person