Why are composers so much more productive than individuals working in other creative fields?

[Anonymous No.15473588]

>15473481

We have over 1100 surviving pieces by Bach.
Over 700 by Beethoven.
Over 600 by Mozart.
Over 1500 by Schubert
Richard Strauss wrote over 200 compositions before he even reached adulthood.

All of whom produced many works on a monumental scale time and time again.

Whereas most writers and painters would be lucky if they produced more than 20 works in the entire lifetime.

[Anonymous No.15473594]

>>15473588

>>15473481*

[Anonymous No.15473604]

>>15473588
Cuz composition is just bling blang blong on a keyboard

[Anonymous No.15473611]

Music turns off the sexual part of the brain and makes the intellectual and productive regions flourish.

[Anonymous No.15473621]

>>15473588
Writing is hard

[Anonymous No.15473639]

>>15473588
The same reason why lawyers write so much and why bloggers post so much. They get paid in bulk and must be productive to continue to be relevant to their field. The authors you hate like Grisham and King shit out books in huge volume.

[Anonymous No.15473678]

Anyone know the Doug Stanhope bit where he explains why singers are lazy pieces of shit? I can't find it, but it's so relevant.

[Anonymous No.15473679]

>>15473588
It depends on the work itself.
Vivaldi and Bach were prolific because a lot of their music served a function (concertos were destined to a certain day) and, since music was commonly played a couple of times publicly in the Baroque era, a lot of works were common (composers often re-used certain segments).
If you look at composers that are between historic movements, like Beethoven who was in the middle of classicism and romanticism, you can see that his works are more experimental, and since he wasn't composing common music, much less abundant.

[Anonymous No.15473737]

>>15473611
But didn't Bach have 20 children?

[Anonymous No.15473742]

>>15473737
Yeah but Bach more like Bacuck

[Anonymous No.15473751]

>>15473588
Symphonies seem the better comparison and most famous composer have less than 10 but the obvious answer is that these things are not comparable. Apparently Mozart wrote the Don Giovanni overture the night before the premiere or he at least was able to compose it entirely in his head which just isn't possible with a book.
https://youtu.be/MMd44lWiHd8?t=41

[Anonymous No.15473753]

>>15473611
>Music turns off the sexual part of the brain
Literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard

[Anonymous No.15473760]

>>15473751
>Symphonies seem the better comparison and most famous composer have less than 10

That's only true after Beethoven raised the bar dramatically. Before that, Mozart and Haydn were just cranking them out.

[Anonymous No.15473800]

>>15473751
What would you say about cantatas? Bach's cantatas were very intricately designed, of great theological insight (earning him the moniker the 5th Evangelist), and often about the size of a medium-length symphony and he wrote over 200 of them. Not to mention his Oratorios and Passions with their dazzling architectonic and the equally complex design of his 30 Goldberg Variations, Art of Fugue and WTC books I and II just to mention a few examples. Are there any creative artists in other fields who can even begin to rival such consistent quantitative and qualitative output? I understand that Bach is an outlier, but still.

[Anonymous No.15473829]

>>15473800
I don't think there is any artist in any field who compares with Bach. I guess some might say Picasso is somewhere there and he had an incredible output. It's listed as:
13,500 paintings
100,000 graphic prints or engravings
34,000 book illustrations
300 sculptures and ceramics

[Anonymous No.15473849]

>>15473588
Bach was trained in a Chinese sweatshop by a belligerent and overbearing mother who would not suffer any mediocrity from (what she perceived to be) a budding genius. Bach, suffering from a mother complex could only oblige. He fussed about his compositions, pitiful mediocrities he would say. But his genius would soon blossom when in a fit of anger he would murder his mother and a small town prostitute from the countryside. When he was done, he sat down and composed what would soon be "of Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam." Later he would confess, in a series of letters to his son that for inspiration, he would pummel poor pregnancy Anna with a torrent of punches under the guise that the constant blows would do well to open up the musical inhibitions of their children. It is no surprise then that the Bach household harboured a flock of damaged mongoloids, they're constant screeching and howling serving as coal for the furnace of his ambition.

[Anonymous No.15473860]

>>15473829
That's tremendous. I wasn't aware of the sheer volume of his work.

[Anonymous No.15473881]

>>15473588
in music you can make new songs by just a mathematical transformation

[Anonymous No.15473911]

>>15473829
where do you get these numbers? on wikipedia, they're about 1/10th of that.

[Anonymous No.15473936]

>>15473588
It's not uncommon for writers to write dozen of books in their career, and some of them are super long.

[Anonymous No.15473964]

>>15473588
Painters could produce hundreds upon hundreds of paintings you slobbering retard. Open a single monograph on an artist and see for yourself.
Anyway, literature and painting and music can barely be compared with regards to the effort needed... different eras put different demands on the artists as well, Greek tragedians wrote around 100 plays each over their lifetime while the number has dropped immensely in the meantime (Shakespeare has around 30). Same shit happened in music, it is clear how Bach, Vivaldi, Telemann, Haydn, etc were hyperproductive machines compared to Mahler, Ravel, Webern(!). Also it is impossible to compare the effort needed for composing an etude and a symphony, writing a handful of poems and an epic, scribbling a sketch and painting a church fresco....

[Anonymous No.15474004]

>>15473737
I wish I descended from someone as gifted as Bach.

[Anonymous No.15474024]

>no Haydn

[Anonymous No.15474048]

>>15473588
goddamn i wish i could compose music
why are words so easy and sounds so hard? i can write tens of thousands of words of utter nonsense about the fucking corn laws but can barely hum the outline of an original tune

[Anonymous No.15475094]

>>15473964
Now now, anon, there's no reason to be rude. Even the composers you mentioned were more industrious than most writers are, and I needn't remind you how tremendously complex a Mahler symphony is even by symphonic standards, a Ravel orchestration (Daphnis et Chloe has few rivals) and as for Webern, he was a miniaturist, but would still produced more than other miniaturists in other fields. The movement of the question still stands, i.e., it seems that musicians produce a vastly more significant amount works than creative artists in other fields in every period even though the discipline is just as meticulous as any other art.

[Anonymous No.15475143]

>>15473588
The common practice language of baroque-classical was very formulaic, allowing composers to churn out a great deal of 7/10 works in a very short time. (As for Richard Strauss, he's shit and his juvenalia is double shit.)

The public today would quickly become very bored of any artist who wrote as formulaic as Bach or Mozart.

[Anonymous No.15475184]

just stopping in to say that music peaked in the early/mid baroque period

[Anonymous No.15475217]

>>15475143
>The public today would quickly become very bored of any artist who wrote as formulaic as Bach or Mozart.
Anon, I...

I think the factor is the amount of man-hours that goes into a literary work. A symphony at most takes 2 hours to listen to, some operas are 4 hours long. Most music is less than an hour though, so the amount of time to create them is proportionally less than, say a novel, which just to read can take 10+ hours. For a fair comparison, look at short stories. Prolific authors have written many more great short stories than novels.

[Anonymous No.15475233]

>>15475217
>Anon, I...
It's true. Even apart from quality, what is prized in an artist nowadays is originality and freshness. Even in pop music artists have to "develop" their image from one album to the next to maintain relevance.

These issues didn't exist for composers of the 18th and early 19th century because there wasn't a concept of listening to music which had been canonised as excellent, let alone the technology to have it recorded and listened to at will.

[Anonymous No.15475248]

>>15473588
>The ring cycle is 15 hours in length, equivalent to listening to Ravel or Boulez's entire output.

[Anonymous No.15475264]

>>15475184
Stop saying that. You sound like baroquen record!!

[Anonymous No.15475314]

>>15475264
ayyyyyyy

[Anonymous No.15475326]

Many writers, specially in science are extremely prolific.

[Anonymous No.15475507]

>>15475184
music peaked with Dufay

[Anonymous No.15476052]

>>15475143

Could you expand on the part about their music being formulaic? It got me interested.

[Anonymous No.15476075]

>>15473588
Because a substantial portion of that consists of very short form works.

[Anonymous No.15476077]

>Whereas most writers and painters would be lucky if they produced more than 20 works in the entire lifetime.
excusez-moi?

[Anonymous No.15476081]

>>15473760
>Beethoven raised the bar dramatically
Pseud opinion.

[Anonymous No.15476110]

>>15476081
Elaborate, pleb.

[Anonymous No.15476143]

>>15476110
He threw the doors wide open for charlatanism and near single-handedly destroyed art music, we've only had a partial recovery since thanks to Schoenberg.

[Anonymous No.15476145]

>>15473849
You thought this was funny didn't you?

[Anonymous No.15476146]

>>15473588
Because if you know theory, making music is really easy. Not to mention that classical composers were learning how to play instruments since a very early age and were in most cases bred to be musicians.

In literature though, no amount of theory will make you a better or more prolific writer, and it takes a long time to write something good, because below the emotions and the technique, there is an underlying idea that the author wants communicated.
Nothing needs to be said about painting, as it should be evident that painting something takes quite a bit of time, and in any case there have been a lot of prolific painters.

In other words, they are completely different disciplines and shouldn't be compared.

[Anonymous No.15476166]

>>15476143
>thanks to Schoenberg.
Ah yes, because everyone loves listening to a bunch of discordant cords. Fuck that jew and fuck you.

[Anonymous No.15476175]

>>15473588
Because most of what writers write is thrown away, rejected by publishers, or worked on until perfection and never sees the light of day. Whereas a capable composer can write a symphony in a couple of days and just played and/or recorded as is. If you take modern music which has to go through a lot of production to make something truly revolutionary or simply good, suddenly prolificity decreases, doesn't it? You don't have modern musicians making thousands of albums.

[Anonymous No.15476188]

>>15476077
This is a great example of why writers aren't prolific, because if they were most of their output would be shit. Of the hundred plus novels he wrote (don't remember the exact number), how many could be daid to be outstanding works of literature? Probably not even 10.

[Anonymous No.15476199]

Reminder that Schumann transcended reality and became Romanticism itself.

[Anonymous No.15476214]

>>15476143
more like- Beethoven raised the bar so high we are still in his shadow, and having realized this, Schoenberg decided to co-opt the entire system, the Philistine that he is, and nuke it.

[Anonymous No.15476238]

>>15476214
>muh Schoenberg
Someone hasn't heard his violin and piano concertos, philistine.

[Anonymous No.15476250]

>>15476238
literal hypocrite cuckhold

[Anonymous No.15476393]

>>15473588
I wish I knew. All I understand is amateur music, which to be fair some rock music can reach comparable heights to classical compositions, but it is such a rarity and it’s never as seemingly “effortless”. The ability to actually write out the music is probably a primary factor, though any great music requires originality and not an over-adherence to procedure

[Anonymous No.15477140]

If anyone wants to start understanding the finer details of music, pic related is a very good book provided you already know and love some of Mozart's compositions. I can also recommend Richard Atkinson's videos on youtube, he usually analyzes counterpoint which is historically where musicians have had the opportunity to show the extent of their skill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTxYykhQZbI

[Anonymous No.15478100]

>>15473588
Because music is a craft. Chairmakers make a lot of chairs too.

[Anonymous No.15478113]

>>15473737
And he probably only had sex 20 times

[Anonymous No.15478154]

>we make fifty songs, then we delete them
>do it for the money like a clown, watch me falling down

[Anonymous No.15478183]

>>15473588
I tried listening to the complete Bach methodically by BWV number and there is so much reused stuff I couldn't bring myself to finish it. Especially considering it's usually the weaker parts that are repeated over and over. There is only one Matthew Passion but 300 cycles of single harpsichord background sounds for a party of nobles.
I get that most pieces were written to only be played a couple of times to specific people so he could get away with writing twenty variations on each of them.
Vivaldi is even worse in that respect, Stravinsky was right saying he composed 100 times the same brilliant concerto (which is pretty much the goat though).
This is largely true up to the late 19th century. I guess recording machines and building of large opera/concert houses in every medium sized city changed the way composers looked at sheer volume of output.
Look at the output of composers in the 20th century. It's much more manageable, like 20-25 hours or so of music per great man.

[Anonymous No.15478317]

>>15473588
The probably didn't had access to 4chinz and composed instead of shitposting

[Anonymous No.15478329]

>>15473588
Many of these works weren't super original. Those composers reused stuff a lot, because it would only get played a handful of times anyway. If you had to tell a different child a fairytale every evening, would you tell a different tale every time, or would you just gradually tweak the story on how you wanted to?

[Anonymous No.15478331]

Why are inventors so much more productive than individuals working in other creative fields?

Edison had over 1000 patents.
Tesla had over 300.

...

It's weird to make an argument using outliers right?

[Anonymous No.15478333]

>>15478183
Art in general is always a lot of in-between busywork instead of geniuses locked away in their rooms until they produced a masterpiece

[Anonymous No.15478490]

>>15473588
But isn't comparing by pure number quite arbitrary? What if you compared the time it takes to listen to the complete oeuvre of someone to the time it takes reading some other?
I'm not sure if the difference would be as yawning then.

[Anonymous No.15478499]

>>15473829
Rembrandt

[Anonymous No.15478500]

>>15473611
I am a musician and I literally attend a uni solely dedicated to music and I know hundreds of musicians.

This couldn't be further from the truth my dude.

This must be bait.

[Anonymous No.15478645]

>>15476175
Brahms destroyed at least 20 String Quartets.

[Anonymous No.15478684]

>>15473588
elevated sense of time

[Anonymous No.15479334]

Most music is formulaic

[Anonymous No.15479359]

>>15473829
>Picasso
>13,500 "paintings"
>100,000 "graphic prints or engravings"
>34,000 "illustrations"
300 "sculptures and ceramics"

[Anonymous No.15479376]

Reading a book called Wagner and Philosophy at the moment. I didn't realise how intense his life was. He was friends with anarchists, wrote articles in favour of anarchism, was involved in rioting etc, was hounded by debt-collectors, cuckolded a couple of wealthy guys who gave supported him financially, was devoted to Schopenhauer and often wrote about his hatred for life, and was convinced that he would go down in history.

[Anonymous No.15479467]

>>15476188
>how many could be daid to be outstanding works of literature? Probably not even 10.
oh, so you havent read them...

[Anonymous No.15479622]

>>15479376
a true genius
His transformation after 1848 is legendary

[Anonymous No.15479861]

>>15479359
Filtered

[Anonymous No.15479890]

>>15479376
what a chad

[Anonymous No.15479900]

>>15479376
how the fuck is all of that particularly impressive
unless you spend all day on 4chan you should be able to do at least the majority of those things

[Anonymous No.15479904]

>>15473611
Scriabin would like to have a talk with you

[Anonymous No.15479941]

>>15479900
if you are on 4chan regularly you've probably ticked off a good half of that list already.

>He was friends with anarchists, wrote articles in favour of anarchism
>was hounded by debt-collectors,
>was devoted to Schopenhauer and hated picasso
>often wrote about his hatred for life
>was convinced that he would go down in history.

[Anonymous No.15480280]

>>15475143
>>15476052
>>15479334
Formulaic composers are mostly lost to history or regarded with less esteem, i.e. Telemann who wrote 2200+ works, most of which are unremarkable / unmemorable. Composers only capable of writing formulaic works are the equivalent of literary theorists and academics. They were sought after by composers of creative talent, but nowadays, they are hardly thought of as composers in their own right. I think of Albrechtsberger, Reicha, Sechter, and Schenker, to name a few.

[Anonymous No.15481099]

>>15476145
desu, anon, that was pretty funny.

[Anonymous No.15481133]

>>15479941
This, the average hacker known as 4chan only misses the cuckolding part.

[Anonymous No.15481146]

>>15481133
this, we're all famous composers on average

[Anonymous No.15481198]

>>15473588
Because composing, while arduous, takes much less time than writing a novel, if you wanted an apt comparison you'd compare composers to poets.

[Anonymous No.15481236]

>>15481198
>Because composing, while arduous, takes much less time than writing a novel, if you wanted an apt comparison you'd compare composers to poets.

Why Shakespeare, who was extremelly prolific, wrote only about 36 plays while Mozart composed over 600 works, and at least 40 of them symphonies?

[Anonymous No.15481253]

>>15481236
This is not OP btw.

[Anonymous No.15481277]

>>15481236 You are making a comparison between laying bricks and basket weaving.

[Anonymous No.15481299]

>>15481198
I understand this is a /lit/ board, but OP never specified novels in particular, but creative pursuits in general.
I would also disagree that composing takes less time than writing. More often than not, you're writing for multiple musicians (post-Beethoven usually about a 100 if its an orchestral piece) and in the case of great composers, many worked several years before completing their works, e.g. Brahms who spent 14-21 years writing his first symphony (subsequent symphonies took less time to write), Bruckner who dedicated several years to his symphonies, Mahler (though he usually only composed in the Summer some symphonies took nearly a decade to complete), Ravel who would slave away at compositions for years, Bach who spent a large portion of his life writing the B minor mass in various iterations, etc. Sure there are composers like Rossini who could write an opera in 3 weeks, but Italian opera was riddled with cliches and filler techniques and Rossini wasn't more than a 1st class tune smith.

[Anonymous No.15481336]

>>15481299
There is a difference between
some thing that you can understand to be of this moment and a work that is like how Goethe worked on Faust his entire life and has his entire life's philosophy in it.

[Anonymous No.15481398]

>>15481336
I don't understand what you mean by this. Mahler symphonies, for example, are not 'some things' you can 'understand to be of this moment'. They are his lifelong meditations on late-19th century Viennese culture. They embrace 19th century German philosophy (Kant, Nietzsche and Schopenhauer in particular), Greek drama, meditations on life and death, Faustian redemption, religious critique and satire, etc.
The same can be said of Bruckner symphonies, but their architecture betrays a less humanistic and more catholic interpretation of the Schillerian 9th symphony.
of Beethoven.
Bach's B minor Mass is, and I do not exaggerate when I say this, the culmination of 1600 years of theological exegesis.

And these are just a few examples.
So I don't really know what you're trying to say with that comment.

[Anonymous No.15481399]

>>15473588

Because you're comparing the volume of finished products and not the amount of words or pages.

[Anonymous No.15481420]

>>15473588
Van Gogh made over 2000 artworks and Salvador Dali 1100. The fuck are you on about?

[Anonymous No.15481425]

>>15481399
The amount of pages a score amounts to varies dramatically on how it is formatted, more so than, as in your particular example, literature. A medium-length symphony can be printed in 150 pages if all the staves are shown throughout, or 50, if not.

[Anonymous No.15481616]

>>15481425
How many of those pages are repetitions or slight variations though? Actual question I thought my comparison was a good point but apparently it's shit.

Also are the classic great composers more prolific than modern composers? If so why? I have a friend who's a composer and paid 10k for some college orchestra to record his symphony. He also wrote a book to accompany it, I should ask him what was more challenging. Probably the former.

[Anonymous No.15481756]

>>15479622
checked, also tell us the story?

[Anonymous No.15481764]

because theres only 12 notes and music is for plebs kek

[Anonymous No.15481818]

>>15474048
Chances are you weren't exposed to a large volume of high-density music in your childhood, or, if you were, it wasn't contextualized in such a way that you were inclined to pay attention and absorb the patterns you were hearing. Musical fluency is very much like linguistic fluency: very difficult to achieve if you aren't raised speaking and listening natively. That being said, anyone can learn to compose, improvise, etc., but it requires a herculean effort if you're already an adult without any musical experience. Equivalent to only speaking english until your twenties then deciding you want to learn to write Arabic poetry.

[Anonymous No.15481826]

>>15473742
>has 20 kids
>cuck
???

[Anonymous No.15481856]

>>15481616
I will grant you this: up until the early 20th century there were often restatements and in the high classical period in particular, this often meant c+p of whole sections, the exposition of a sonata-allegro form being repeated note for note, etc. But after Beethoven, this is less and less the case and restatements, when they occur, are often accompanied by dramatic transformation and a complete change of texture and timbre. Expositions stopped being repeated, and even when thematic fragments were restated, they had undergone drastic transformations and in the hands of very skilled composers like, e.g., Beethoven (cf., e.g., 7th symphony) Brahms (cf. , e.g., 4th symphony) can only be identified as being of the same thematic material through very careful listening.
In Beethoven's 7th symphony for example, the entire coda of the 1st movement anticipates the character of the 4th movement, and at 10:58-11:02, the principal thematic material of the 4th movement is blatantly, but very organically stated. See below for reference recording (Karajan, 1963, Berliner Philharmoniker).

https://youtu.be/WKz74XfsuO0?t=657

Common practice era composers were definitely more prolific than their successors after the French Revolution, because before that, musicians in general were often not more than courtiers (they still express themselves (e.g.,Bach wrote a cantata about how great coffee was, Mozart's 8th piano sonata is a raw expression of his anguish over his mother's death, etc.), but they were still required to churn out compositions at rapid speed bc their patrons demanded it (not unlike royal bards and renaissance artists) (Bach often had to enlist his entire family to help copy instrumental parts on to the manuscript paper). The cultural change in the 18th century, and especially Beethoven in particular, emancipated the musicians and then they began to assume a prophet-artist persona and were less inclined to produce works for, for example every Sunday of the week,special feasts, to satisfy the bodily humors etc.

[Anonymous No.15482128]

musicians are the real alchemists and can freeze time. but officially you only need to know that they work HARD.

a writer can only hire a better ghostwriter. and dictating his work doesn't accelerate the process, unless he invents a faster way of thinking and talking.

[Anonymous No.15482210]

>>15473588
Bach and Mozart's catalog numbers already seem impressive, but then you factor in that Operas, masses, oratorio etc all count as one catalog entry. But the productivity of composers wasn't unique, it was possible in all of the arts because of steady patronage, and apprentices starting the craft at like 12 years old and pursuing it for a lifetime. There also was a more rigid definition of what an artform consisted of which led to their being methods of art and composition that were taught as rules and less emphasis was placed on individual invention.

[Anonymous No.15482216]

>>15479861
Even if you like this stuff you have to realize that it didn't take him a long time to make.

[Anonymous No.15482788]

>>15482216
Is there any source for this claim?

[Anonymous No.15482859]

>>15481856

Well written post. Thank you.

[Anonymous No.15483246]

>>15474004
Don't we all?

[Anonymous No.15483438]

What do you guys think is harder to do: compose a symphony like the ones of Beethoven and late Mozart or write a play like Shakespeare’s great tragedies and major comedies/histories?

[Anonymous No.15483453]

>>15483438
the former

[Anonymous No.15483489]

>>15483453

Why?

[Anonymous No.15483575]

>>15483489
try writing even a 3 minute piano prelude and then you'll understand

[Anonymous No.15484719]

>>15476145
It was though.

[Anonymous No.15485548]

>>15479904
based and ecstasypilled

[Anonymous No.15485552]

>>15481764
>12 notes
Based fucking retard
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/53_equal_temperament

[Anonymous No.15486193]

>>15476146
There are often underlying ideas in music also, if not all the time. This post brings to mind something Debussy once said: 'works of art make rules; rules don't make works of art'. No amount of theory will make you a better composer either see>>15480280
Knowing theory does not make the production of musical masterpieces any easier.

[Anonymous No.15486242]

Music is more an objective and true art form than literature. This is why you have so many lazy pseud hacks in literature especially in philosophy, sure you have this in music too but its clear they're hacks (Cage, most 20th century composers that no one takes seriously) where as Beethoven or Mozart are immediately recognizable as the greatest.

[Anonymous No.15486408]

To put in to context its estimated that Mozart spent on average 8 hours a day from age 20 writing the notes to manuscript, not even the composing which he seemed to do separately, he seemed to have composed in his head, had several pieces he was composing at the same time and then when ready commit them to manuscript.

>>15473751
The first section of the overture uses the same material as the Commendatore scenes so it was already partially composed https://youtu.be/hY_bQpmEBc0
The D major section was probably new material he wrote that night, however if in being honest I find the D major section slightly lacking in comparison to the opening, obviously the quality is still great but I dont think it's as amazing which is why I prefer the Magic Flute overture.

>>15486193
False, since leading counterpoint for example I've been able to compose at a much faster rate. Mozart and Beethoven were throughly knowledgeable in theory, from harmony, and counterpoint to even mathematical proportions in form and art.

[Anonymous No.15486434]

>>15486408
And can you compose in an original and non-derivative style? Can you produce works that are not just third pressings of greater works?
They were knowledgeable in theory, just like any other creative individual, but churning out theoretical exercises does not make you an artist. It makes you Albrechtsberger et al.

[Anonymous No.15486457]

>>15486434
>They were knowledgeable in theory, just like any other creative individual, but churning out theoretical exercises does not make you an artist.
I agree, I've been composing for a while(its something I've always been able to naturally) but I had very little understanding of theory and so things like fugues or big forms were hard to do. Knowing theory gives you tools to develop your art more efficiently.

[Anonymous No.15486793]

>>15476175
Hard to compare classical composers and modern music industry.

These days, it is extremely hard to be "all around guy", either you dedicate your life to composing or you dedicate your life to recording and recording techniques. Both are exremely time consuming and to be a good studio technician/producer, you also have to probably be a good musician.

These people "composed" in their heads on paper, now we have acutal programs where you could make very realistic stuff with notations and other sampler programs for classical music >>15486408

People with access to modern technology and productivity and genius of Mozart could easily make 20x more stuff Mozart ever produced. The obvious problem of course being that you cannot produce geniuses on their own or through an assembly line. Not in music, literature or science.

[Anonymous No.15486948]

>>15482788
come one dude,
there are videos of picasso working

and of his contemporaries too.
just watched this on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj3tX34GRNQ
here the guy made a painting in a day or so.

Its okay to say these do not take a lot of time, unless you want to make the argument that picasso made 10 bad paintings for every "good" one, imo

[Anonymous No.15487036]

>>15486408
>https%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FhY_bQpmEBc0
Woah 5:30 gives me goosebumps

[Anonymous No.15487795]

>>15487036
goosebumpeh
I see what you did there.

[Anonymous No.15487817]

>>15475143
>The public today would quickly become very bored of any artist who wrote as formulaic as Bach or Mozart.
Are you just trolling or legit retarded?
Are you implying that modern music isn't formulaic? The public still hasn't gotten bored with verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus

[Anonymous No.15487825]

>>15476146
>making music is really easy
No it isn't.
I'd like to see you create just one piece that is even remotely on the level of quality as Bach. I'll give you one year.

[Anonymous No.15487832]

>The public today would quickly become very bored of any artist who wrote as formulaic as Bach or Mozart.
why do we still listen to bach then?

[Anonymous No.15487854]

Daily reminder that Mozart died when he was 35.
Fucking 35!

[Anonymous No.15487902]

>>15487854
Schubert died when he was 31!

[Anonymous No.15487911]

>>15487902
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1O7HX2TKk

[Anonymous No.15487937]

>>15473588
I can’t believe no one has said it yet. Bach, and everyone in his age, constantly reused music from other stuff. Most of his pieces are put together from sections of other works, like a bricoleur. He didn’t just write everything from scratch. You know that middle part in the little fugue, na na na naaaaa, na na na naaaaa, he uses that part a billion times over in his work. Like if you’re a coder, you have certain things saved in a repositiry for when you need it for another project, why write from scartch again?

[Anonymous No.15487955]

>>15487825

Are you a musician? I’ll give you one year to write a single scene that it’s on the poetic and psychological level of a scene from a Shakesperean tragedy.

Just because people are alphabetized in writing but not in music musicians feel that they can talk about their work always as something divine or otherworldly. Because people know how to write essays and dissertations they fool themselves into thinking they could write sublime poetry if they only really wanted to, and that’s not the case at all.

[Anonymous No.15487977]

>>15487955
I'm a musician which is exactly why I know to give rightful reverence to the masters of the art.
I think it's hilarious when some anonymous hipster online talks about how it's "really easy" to compose art music of merit and casually compares himself to some of the most towering geniuses in all of history. Just because he's semi-literate in whatever meme instrument he happened to pick up.
We're not talking about "musicians" here we're talking about J.S. fucking Bach. His music IS otherworldly.

[Anonymous No.15487990]

>>15487937
michelangelo used cartoons
what's your point?
if we're comparing painters to composers

[Anonymous No.15488016]

>>15487977

Not arguing that Bach was not a great mind. But I doubt that composing like him was easier to do than writing like Shakespeare. People here seem to think they could be as good as Shakespeare if they wanted to, and I highly doubt it.

[Anonymous No.15488046]

>>15488016
Not him, but I think you are trolling. Even the very fact that music, especially classical, requires extremely high IQ. Writing doesn't.

[Anonymous No.15488121]

All pales in comparison to the Ars subtilior.

[Anonymous No.15488160]

>>15487854
Greatest tragedy in music, had he lived to 70, music would practically have been solved.

[Anonymous No.15488169]

>>15487937
Retard, obviously forms he worked on but material was knew.

[Anonymous No.15488175]

>>15488046
Writing like Shakespeare obviously requires an astronomical verbal iq, or some such similar measure if IQ doesn't correspond properly.

[Anonymous No.15488216]

>>15487955
It would uniroincally be easier(less insane or) for an average musician who spent his life studying music to write a play near the quality of Shakespeare than write symphony even close to the quality symphony of Beethoven or an opera of Mozart. Music as an art form completely mogs fiction literature in talent and heights.

[Anonymous No.15488226]

>>15488175
>>15488216

Music is more wholesome and universal artform. It is nearer to God than literature.

[Anonymous No.15488269]

>>15488216
>>15488016
>>15487955
Anthony Burgess was a lifelong musician/composer and didnt pick up writing till his 30s and very quickly excelded in that field, that would be impossible for a writer to do the reverse.

[Anonymous No.15488277]

>>15487990
That it’s not a long painstaking process?

>>15488169
What do you even mean by this? They’re new compositions but their components are ready made. It’s a process meant to churn out in mass.

Why are you so inflammatory for no reason? This doesn’t invalidate Bach’s genuis, but let’s not mistify. He had a process that made composition faster and that meant reusing music already written. This is common knowledge to all music historians. The music of the Easter and Christmas oratorios are straight up from the cantatas with new lyrics.

[Anonymous No.15488327]

>>15488277
Multiple people are responding to you it isn't all me.
That being said, I find it difficult to believe someone can have an adequate appreciation for Bach without at least a bit of mysticism.
I don't think you can understand his music otherwise.
I can tell from the way that you talk about Bach that you are spiritually dead/a hylic.

[Anonymous No.15488348]

>>15488327
Kind of reminds me of >>14015700

[Anonymous No.15488364]

>>15488327
Kind of reminds me of >>/lit/thread/S14012673#p14015700
So much passion

[Anonymous No.15488402]

>>15488364
Kommt, ihr Töchter is certainly staggering.
There's an 8-bit rendition of it on youtube posted years ago and even that brought tears to my eyes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAafyK44fCc

[Anonymous No.15488412]

>>15488327
Okay, so you’re just a faggot who doesn’t care or know anything about music but only listen to stuff that validates whatever bullshit you project into it.

[Anonymous No.15488428]

>>15488327
>”Telemann, and in one of its few mentions of him referred to "the vastly inferior work of lesser composers such as Telemann" in comparison to Handel and Bach.[11]
Particularly striking examples of such judgements were produced by noted Bach biographers Philipp Spitta and Albert Schweitzer, who criticized Telemann's cantatas and then praised works they thought were composed by Bach, but which were composed by Telemann.”

This is exactly the kind of retard you are.

[Anonymous No.15488463]

>>15488412
If that's what you need to tell yourself to deal with your own spiritual vacuousness.
>>15488428
I don't see how this relates to myself in any way.

[Anonymous No.15488485]

>>15488428
I'm always baffled when scholars expose themselves to be such pseuds. I had a discussion with a music PhD about an alleged early work by Beethoven, a symphony he would have written when he was 14 (we know he wrote one but we don't have it anymore). She wasn't aware that the theory that stated that Jena Symphony, with its many Haydenesque components, which was allegedly Beethoven's lost early symphony, had been debunked. But even just listening to it and comparing it to his other early works you can tell that it wasn't by Beethoven. It's well written, but there's nothing about it that betrays any of Beethoven's early quirks. It was only embarrassing to watch such a pompous prick go on and on about how Beethovenian it was.

[Anonymous No.15488488]

>>15488463
Cause you wouldn’t even tell what a Bach piece is or what makes it one. Because you don’t value anything concrete in the music, just it’s reputation of the work as “spiritually inspired”. You can hear any baroque work and if someone tells you it’s by Bach you will project “spirituality” to it. Because you’re an idpol retard.

[Anonymous No.15488493]

>>15488277
Because it's not the same material it's new melodies and such, sure they are similarities in form but this is like saying Shakespeare reused the same material in every play necause it's the same form which is of course false.
>The music of the Easter and Christmas oratorios are straight up from the cantatas with new lyrics.
Ok which ones? But if they are those are exceptions and Bach only did that occasionally like arrange his keyboard concertos for violin, they weren't meant to pass as new music he just came up with and they make up a small percentage of his catalogue which is hundreds and hundreds of pieces that he created new.

[Anonymous No.15488498]

>>15488402
The greatest movement to any piece of music ever. Nothing nobler and more beautiful will ever be written again.

[Anonymous No.15488503]

>>15488485
In those particular critics’ defense, they’re from the 19th century. That kind “spiritual” reading of music was way more common and wouldnt be as obviously bullshit as it is now.

[Anonymous No.15488507]

>>15488488
You don't know any of this though. It's 100% strawmanning.
I also haven't said a single thing about Telemann in this entire thread.
You're absolutely seething right now, so hard that you aren't even logical. It's quite funny and I hope you continue.

[Anonymous No.15488514]

>>15488493
Not the same anon but anon, there's no need to go on. Bach is a superlative genius but it is well known that he reused material and at times it wasn't even his own. Copyright wasn't a big thing back then. BWV 1083 'Tilge, Höchster, meine Sünden' is really just an arrangement with new lyrics of Pergolesi's (who died when he was 26) Stabat Mater.

[Anonymous No.15488525]

>>15488507
It’s a comparison to the content of your posts. You’re making the same kind of arguments as those faggot critics.

[Anonymous No.15488532]

>>15488514
But it should be said, that Bach's arrangement is much better. The counterpoint is far more sophisticated and he fleshes out the middle voices in a way that only Bach and Zelenka could have done.

[Anonymous No.15488540]

>>15488493
>•Bach's demands were simple enough: to reuse again as much of the music that he had just composed with a minimum of alterations and/or additions...”
https://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/BWV249Chron.pdf

[Anonymous No.15488544]

>>15488525
I don't think you've accurately followed the flow of conversation. You just seem to be irate that someone pointed out your lack of spiritual feeling, and in response to that you set up this absurd false dichotomy between technical knowledge and spiritual awe.

[Anonymous No.15488552]

>>15488216

I don’t think you know much poetry. The level of Shakespeare’s poetry is frighteningly superior to most other great poets in history. There were several people during the history of literature trying to write as great poetry as Shakespeare, be it in epic or dramatic form, and none of them came even close. We tend to speak of the great tradedinas, like Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripedes as if they were on the same level as Shakespeare, but that’s not true, as Shakespeare is vastly superior to all of them in poetic inventiveness and human knowledge. The same when one says that Homer or Cervantes or Virgil are as great writers as Shakespeare: it’s not the same thing.

Also, Bach, Mozart and Beethoven all were born in quick succession, and they are all somewhat on a same level of achievement (as I have read on several pools and analysis), but there was nobody even remotely as great as Shakespeare coming before or after him. Marlowe, Jonson, Donne, even Milton: they are all nowhere near as great in poetic language and literary achievement as Shakespeare.

So you can see a composer studying and being able to write a tragedy, but it wouldn’t have nothing of the poetic capacity of Shakespeare, I can tell you that. Anybody who has read the complete works of Shakespeare will spend the rest of their lives searching in vain for the same awe-inspiring achievement.

[Anonymous No.15488577]

>>15488544
>false dichotomy between technical knowledge and spiritual awe.
The dichotomy was set up by you in >>15488327
>appreciation for Bach without at least a bit of mysticism.
>I don't think you can understand his music otherwise.
>I can tell from the way that you talk about Bach that you are spiritually dead/a hylic.

>”you cant understand Bach without this faux-spirituality I identify with”
My point is that this is bullshit by pointing out a well-known example of this being proven false.

[Anonymous No.15488582]

>>15488514
But my point is this is a tiny percentage of Bach's works, where he rearranged works he had already done so I don't know why you bring it up, BWV 1083 doesnt pretend to be an orginal work it's like a musician covering another's song at a gig, its literally titled as an arrangement by Bach nothing more.
And I wasnt the one previously before in this thread, if we really need to talk about the superlative genius composer that would be Mozart who's output was even more insane.

[Anonymous No.15488592]

>>15488582
Mozart is great but he never surpassed Bach. I think it's an often overlooked fact but Bach achieved just as much as Mozart had when he was 35.

[Anonymous No.15488600]

>>15488582
Alright I'll concede to your point on BWV 1083.

[Anonymous No.15488602]

>>15488552
Tbf no one came close to Mozart in his time and frankly no composer has since, practically every big name modern and 20th century composer are complete nobodies to Mozart.

[Anonymous No.15488607]

>>15488592
late Bach has only one rival and that is late Beethoven. Whenever I think of these two composers in their twilight years I feel dizzy

[Anonymous No.15488614]

>>15488602
I don't think you understand the raw artistic vision of Debussy. He's easily top 5 if not higher. He's much more than just Claire de Lune (which he didn't even wanted to publish bc it was juvenile) and La Mer.

[Anonymous No.15488620]

>>15488614
Clair*

[Anonymous No.15488631]

>>15488614
It is not an exaggeration to say that a large portion of the 20th is indebted to him, perhaps even more so than to Debussy, and Messiaen isn't a lightweight either.

[Anonymous No.15488646]

>>15488631
Schoenberg*

[Anonymous No.15488701]

>>15488269
>and didnt pick up writing till his 30s and very quickly excelded in that field,

What work by Anthony Burgess is as great as a Shakesperean tragedy or a Tolstoy novel?

It’s like saying he achieved the same in music as Beethoven.

>>15488216

How can you say that Music “totally mogs literature” as an art form? What’s your evidence? I can say that Newton and Einstein completely destroyed all artists with the brilliance of their scientific theories and it would be as valuable as a statement as what you have just said.

It’s that thing again: since people know how to read and write they somehow think that it’s not that difficult to achieve what the greatest writers of all time achieved.

[Anonymous No.15488874]

>>15488701
Not the same anon, but it isn't the same at all. All he's saying is that no writer could achieve what Burgess had in music under the same circumstances, which is true. Even musically 'late' composers like Schumann and Bruckner had an innate prodigious affinity for music that had been evident since childhood.

[Anonymous No.15488979]

I didn't think this thread would last as long as it has. Why is /lit/ more knowledgeable on music theory and history than actual literature?

[Anonymous No.15489146]

>>15488874

Oh, now I get it. Sorry for being dumb.

[Anonymous No.15489177]

>>15473588
It's not really unique. If you take the most productive from art, writing etc they all produced a lot of stuff

[Anonymous No.15489188]

>>15474004
Bach can still fuck your mom.

[Anonymous No.15489192]

>>15473611
cool, got proof?

[Anonymous No.15489221]

>>15479376
>Reading a book called Wagner and Philosophy
It's a very good book. Have you reach the Nieztsche part yet? The portrait of the young Nietzsche is absolutely hilarious.

[Anonymous No.15489231]

>>15481236
Because Shakespare was a black woman, sweetie.

[Anonymous No.15489543]

SOMEBODY JUST FIND THE ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPT TO THE BACH CELLO SUITES

NOW

LAST POSSIBLE LOCATION:
THE MIDWESTERN PORTION OF THE UNITED STATES

[Anonymous No.15489966]

>>15489543
what are you yapping on about

[Anonymous No.15490311]

>>15479622
>>15481756
Well anon? Tell us the story!

[Anonymous No.15490327]

>>15473588
Takes more intelligence to compose music than to blab on an on about nonsense.

[Anonymous No.15490410]

>>15473588
Music in that period was formulaic with a set of rules governing composition. This made it easier to make lots of works. Also musicians are more likely to release their works, I'm sure your favorite authors have thousands of pages of short stories or sentences or rough drafts they just never released.

[Anonymous No.15490424]

>>15490410
This take has been refuted multiple times throughout this thread. It's nonsense.

[Anonymous No.15490428]

>>15490410
OP is clearly not talking about one time period.

[Anonymous No.15490498]

>>15474048
Practice. It will take a LONG time to actually get good, but it's worth it. Unless you'd rather sink that time into writing, we do have a limited time on this earth tbf and you have to invest it wisely and not spread your time resources thin

[Anonymous No.15490518]

>>15475217
Dif anon here. Maybe not Bach or Mozart but in terms of your average classical composer you are just blatantly wrong if you think modern popular artists are less formulaic than classical composers. Anyone who thinks this is revealing themselves to just be pretentious "modern popular stuff bad" and not actually know music or be musicians.

[Anonymous No.15490534]

>>15476052
Look up strict counterpoint. There were very specific, strict rules about how multiple melodies are supposed to interact with each other, and breaking these rules was seen as a big no no for a long time.

[Anonymous No.15490550]

>>15476166
>everyone loves listening to a bunch of discordant cords

Yes.

Memes aside I recommend listening to music with more complex chords, once you get used to the dissonance there is a lot of richness, nuance and complexity to be enjoyed. Check out a lot of jazz music for example

[Anonymous No.15490557]

>>15490424
Chefs are more productive.

[Anonymous No.15490570]

>>15477140
>he usually analyzes counterpoint which is historically where western classical musicians have had the opportunity to show the extent of their skill

ftfy

[Anonymous No.15490571]

>>15490327
hence, composers come pre-filtered, and are just smarter & more productive.

There are no pieces of writing that come near this level of complexity and formal coherence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQcHPhYEoJY

[Anonymous No.15490581]

>>15490534
The presence of strict rules doesn't make the genre formulaic. That's like saying strict rules about grammar make fiction formulaic.

[Anonymous No.15490642]

>>15490581
Not comparable. Lot's of sentences can have the same grammatical structure and say completely different things, the tonic moving to the subdominant moving to the dominant will always sound the same. When the grammar is the language itself then strict rules about grammar are are formulaic

[Anonymous No.15490662]

>>15490642
OP is speaking of composers in general, not CE composers in particular. Any composer after Beethoven who unironically and for non-academic purposes adheres to strict stile antico counterpoint rules is a waste of time and space.

[Anonymous No.15491745]

>>15478113
Sex is overrated plebean cope.

[Anonymous No.15491764]

>>15473611

desu some music does, and some music does the opposite

[Anonymous No.15492623]

>>15490498
i'm not really at the stage where i can practice, it'd be like trying to practice writing while being completely illiterate.

[Anonymous No.15492624]

>>15490571
That's rad.

[Anonymous No.15492625]

>>15473588
Good writers also write a lot of shit. Some of them try to burn it before they pass. Most composers only have a handful of truly great pieces.

[Anonymous No.15492630]

>>15492625
?
>>15478645

[Anonymous No.15492783]

>>15492625
Literally every thing Mozart wrote was KINO.

[Anonymous No.15492803]

>>15486457
I sure do hope you've turned out to be a refreshing composer with novel ideas and not just one of the 10000 Mozart clones that apply to music conservatories every fucking year.

[Anonymous No.15492869]

>>15492803
novelty these days means hitting our instrument with your fist and screaming like a sperg to a bunch of empty chairs

[Anonymous No.15492878]

>>15492869
So you are *yawn*. Get with the times. Novelty these days means taking cues from jazz-fusion, prog and Rautavaara. This isn't 2006.

[Anonymous No.15492958]

>>15492803
I believe the most important thing is for your art to be natural and sincere(come from within you) even if on paper there is nothing super novel in it, it will be orginal. Concepts like you mentioned >>15492878 are style and style is shallow, a poet should have substance in whatever style.

[Anonymous No.15492959]

>>15490571
>There are no pieces of writing that come near this level of complexity and formal coherence:

Well, Beethoven did say that the greatest treasure of a nation was a poet and he held Shakespeare as his greatest idol, so I think he could see great value in godlike poetry

[Anonymous No.15493010]

>>15492958
I for one am tired of seeing young composers being self-indulgent navel-gazers. Your art should be sincere and 'come from within', but if your experience of what is happening around and the effects this can have within you is shallow, your art will be equally shallow. The CE ended 250 years ago. How is it even still possible to live in its shadow when so many great composers came and continue to come after it? Concepts like I mentioned do involve style, but style isn't shallow. A poet should have substance, but not at the expense of his style. There are 1000s of people rn who can write pastiche of Shakespeare while expressing themselves; doesn't make it any more interesting to read. Style / substance isn't either / or. If you cannot express yourself in any other way than to parrot what people were doing 250 years ago, you haven't found yourself.

[Anonymous No.15493038]

>>15493010
>There are 1000s of people rn who can write pastiche of Shakespeare while expressing themselves;

One thing is to write Star Wars Shkespeare pastiche, other thing is to write drama about modern characters and themes but usethe same poetic style of Shakespeare, Aeschylus and Emily Dickinson. Some critics would try to kill such an author in the shell, but I woudl welcome it as a possible future great cornerstone of western literature.

[Anonymous No.15493043]

>>15490642
bro you can V-I a million different ways. It’s basically a period at the end of the sentence. No one says two sentences are the same just because they both end with periods.

[Anonymous No.15493056]

>>15492958
>I believe the most important thing is for your art to be natural and sincere(come from within you) even if on paper there is nothing super novel in it, it will be orginal.

I'm 100% with you.

Look for Alma Deutscher and her fight for the use of melody in her music (against modern critics who wnat to force her to create ugly music to express the "ugliness of the modern world"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alma_Deutscher

I don't agree with people who say that one needs to be a child of the time. If one loves Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, and one can compete with them in ones art then by all means, go for it. You might imitate in the beggining, but in the end you will become yourself. On example is that of the Elizabethans, who imitated Seneca and end up creating something completely new.

[Anonymous No.15493082]

>>15493010
Well yeah I think I still sound modern just because I am born in a modern age, I just ment style isnt something I care about much atm.

>>15493056
Her for instance sounds a bit too pastiche

[Anonymous No.15493097]

>>15493056
Alma Deutscher is wholly uninteresting. She just does what greater individuals did better already hundreds of years ago. As a prodigy, she's a lesser Schubert, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Saint-Saens, Strauss, Korngold, Rachmaninoff, Busoni, Prokofiev etc., who all imitated Mozart when they were young but grew out of it before they reached adulthood. Heck, all of them grew out of it by the time they were 14. I predict a fate akin to Franz Xaver Mozart? Who? Exactly. It is normal for young artists to imitate art they love. It is wrong for them to grow up thinking that in having done so they have created, rather than just copied art. It is juvenile spook. Being an artist is hard work and there is no room for complacency if you want to make it. There are 1000s of other individuals with just as much if not more talent than you fighting for a spot in the limelight.

[Anonymous No.15493115]

>>15493038
Art that can't stand on its own will stagnate, as will the communities that live off a 'golden age of the past', as is the case with art music. The repercussions of this can cause an art to die out completely.

[Anonymous No.15493126]

>>15493056
Caroline Shaw was a Mozartian prodigy as well, but quickly snapped out of that spook. Now she writes interesting works that truly express who she is and how she experiences the world.

[Anonymous No.15493158]

>>15493010
>There are 1000s of people rn who can write pastiche of Shakespeare while expressing themselves;

If a modern playwright wrote romantic comedies with current themes and current (but also poetic) language, tragedies about press barons, about drug dealers, about modern political intrigues, etc., and did it in verse and a mixture of a colloquial and densely metaphorical language, would you say that this playwright is a "Shakespeare pastiche", even if this playwright used all kinds of contemporary themes, objects and concepts to create his similes and metaphors, besides never using things like "thou" and "methought", but always current words?

[Anonymous No.15493208]

>>15493158
No I wouldn't. I would say that playwright was influenced by Shakespeare, like Mahler was influenced by Beethoven or Ravel was influenced by Mozart, Couperin, Faure and Debussy or Shakespeare was influenced by Petrarch. Depending on how it is executed and how well it is executed, I might even say that this playwright might be on to something interesting.

[Anonymous No.15493211]

>>15493082
>Her for instance sounds a bit too pastiche
>>15493097
>Alma Deutscher is wholly uninteresting.


You guys know she’s still a teenager and she’s just flexing her mental muscles, don’t you? She has an amazing aptitude for composition, a great ease in creating melodies, a natural talent for improvisation. She has everything it takes to be a great artist. What is missing now is obsession, hours and hours and hours of work, and a constant meditating on her own art.

I'm rooting for her.

You guys seem to be wanting that things to go wrong for her. Wouldn't it be nice if she evolved more and more and ended up producing great things in the future? Imagine someone seeing the young Mozart and saying "well, he is just a reheater for the remains of Haydn and Johann Christian Bach", and hoping that the child would fail.

[Anonymous No.15493219]

>>15493208

That's very good to hear. Thank you. I am sometimes desperate to think that any influence from the past is a form of pastiche.

[Anonymous No.15493235]

>>15493211
There's a difference between reheating composers from 30 years before you and reheating what someone did over 250 years ago. Don't get me wrong. I hope she succeeds and does exploits, but not with whatever she's writing rn. I mentioned Caroline Shaw bc I still think there's hope for her, but I worry that all these people praising what can only be described as mediocrity will stifle any potential she has for growth and confine her potential to the archives of some library in Vienna.

[Anonymous No.15493261]

>>15493235

You are a nice man, Anon. Nice to see someone like you here.

[Anonymous No.15493437]

>>15473588
A song has emotional content in the order of minutes. More comparable to a short story than a novel, and even then it lends itself much better to repetition since there is so much more room for variety in style to keep things fresh, and you don't have to flesh out the details of the drama like you would a short story. the closest you get is writing lyrics.

As for the argument about which one's "easier" its obvious they take different skills, which are distributed unevenly among different populations

[Anonymous No.15493451]

>>15493261
I appreciate it, anon. I really believe that this century will produce some of the greatest artists yet seen, but they won't actualise themselves if their illusions are not shattered. In fact, I know that the next generation of greats has already been born. The ground is fertile. I long to see these individuals. Just imagine. A modern day Mozart would be one who could casually write Davis' Pharaoh's Dance at the age of 10 - this after all is the magnitude of Mozart's accomplishments. The difference between such a person and I would be greater than the difference between an ape and myself, and I'm not even a layman but a mature musician in my own right. I know they're alive. They are all around me working in diverse fields. But I cannot witness their magnificence yet. I long for the day when this will be possible. Every fibre in my being longs for it.

[Anonymous No.15493504]

>>15493437
Composers wrote much more than 'songs' or lieder.

[Anonymous No.15493539]

>>15475326

>Exploring the socio-economic implications of the coffee house milieu in post-restoration England

Omg I fcking loooove science

[Anonymous No.15493562]

>>15488402
>>15488498
The first part of the B Minor Mass is slightly better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS2biN257sQ
Although they both take themselves quite seriously, which isn't exactly anything to behold since Bach himself had surprisingly little to no philosophy in his life, only depth of musical perception. I prefer more 'minor' and simple pieces as:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZN6CVBBLq4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXnRl6VHzjI
https://youtu.be/uB4in7eMv1A?t=85
and i consider this ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L_EDTZ9gik ) to be the finest out of all his work, at least currently.

[Anonymous No.15493683]

>>15488552

I'd say both the opening and end of Faustus by Marlowe rival Shakespeare for merging the philosophical with the musical.

Volpone by Jonson is another play that falls close - more for the absurd risks he placed on his life to create it.

Nothing to me will be as sublime as Hamlet though.

Also - I'd look at Nietzche's analysis of the musical in the Birth of Tragedy for any anon's interested in why music seems to have 'spiritual' or transcendental properties. A sense for music and rhythm is something that predates verbal thought - for truly beautiful music, we dance without thinking, just as we breath automatically. It allows us to go into a world of pure sense.

The cruelty is that any escape is brief. Just like noticing we're making an ass of ourselves dancing, we always sink back to an aching consciousness. Only a writer can help us there. In Nietzche's essay, Hamlet is a character who fundamentally understood this.

[Anonymous No.15494205]

bump

[Anonymous No.15494274]

>>15473611
Someone tell Nietzsche that

[Anonymous No.15494313]

>>15473678
Sometimes, I take two xanax, and two laxatives, and play chicken in my sleep

[Anonymous No.15494619]

>>15487955
Play something from Bach on piano, violin or cello and then you understand that only a genius could have produced these works
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cuWNXezINX0&t=220s

[Anonymous No.15494923]

It's much harder to compose than write, and requires real talent but once one does compose something it's easier to do it again. Like if one writes a sonata it will be much easier to then write a 2nd sonata of the same quality or better. Literature has less theory and I dont know if gets ths6t much easier to write a book after writing one already. And I'd say the mental fatigue of writing a novel a set amount of words a day is more where as composing is more natural and cathartic and doesn't require such labour hours.

[Anonymous No.15495157]

>>15494923
Do you compose as well?

[Anonymous No.15495320]

>>15495157
Yes!

[Anonymous No.15495809]

>>15495320
Cool. Good luck, anon.

[Anonymous No.15496025]

>>15478331
These are just example. Even many of the forgotten composers were just as prolific if not more. The most prolific composer is not even a great composer.

[Anonymous No.15496615]

>>15478684
Could you elaborate on this?

[Anonymous No.15497095]

>>15494923

Why do you think that writing in a high level is more mentally exhausting than composing? I have heard other people say the same thing but I don’t know why they felt that way. All I know is that in many days writing is frightening and a real torture to me.

[Anonymous No.15497117]

because songs fucking last for 5 minutes but a book lasts 20 hours

[Anonymous No.15497141]

>>15497117
Wtf are you talking about 'songs'? Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.15497155]

>>15497117
Wtf are you talking about 'book'? Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.15497160]

>>15497141

[Anonymous No.15497209]

>>15497160
Catch me outside how bout dat