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/lit/ - Literature

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15462793 No.15462793 [Reply] [Original]

Every African American I've talked to about Ebonics/African American Vernacular English has told me that nobody speaks like the examples used in the textbooks. They said a few of the basic words and terminology are used, like 'Finna/fixing to', but that it was in no way unique to blacks as local whites in the area spoke in the same manner.

Can an American please fill me in on Ebonics?

>> No.15462796

its so funny how they call it "ebonics" like literally "niggertalk" they cant even be assed to name it not after the color of the speakers lol

>> No.15462806

>>15462793
Some of ebonics is just normal southern vernacular, that might lead to some confusion. I don't know about the rest.

>> No.15462820

>>15462796
Because ‘AAVE’ is a mouthful. What do you want people to call it?

>> No.15462833

>>15462820
jive

>> No.15462853

>>15462820
"african american" is another fucking hilarious one now that you mention it. every one of these shitlib euphemisms has to somehow mention A) they're black or B) they're african

>> No.15462857

>>15462793
>but that it was in no way unique to blacks as local whites in the area spoke in the same manner.
Then you've been talking to southern blacks. The vast majority of people outside of the south do not talk like that, which is why it has earned the name ebonics. Ebonics differs by city, region, class, and even race - Hispanics and poor whites here in California speak a version of ebonics as well. To get a feel for it, you have to live around people who speak it, which is exactly what nobody in their right mind would want to do. Your best bet is to just watch The Boondocks or something like that. The Boondocks has the added benefit of showing differences in generation, class, and general attitude, and how those show up in speech patterns.
Also, the point of the example sentences is that the auxiliary function of "to be" differs between General American and ebonics.

>> No.15462872

>>15462833
Finally, a word for these people that doesn't hinge on a non-universal skin color. I don't hate NIGGER or BLACK because I'm PC, I hate those words because I'm an autist who knows that they're not all that color.

>> No.15462887

>>15462853
You seem to be pretty blown away by the concept of descriptive categories

How else exactly would you refer to a group of people based on a shared quality without mentioning the quality that they share?

>> No.15462894

>>15462793
>Can an American please fill me in on Ebonics?
Just do a search on JSTOR. /lit/'s not going to know anything about the topic.

>> No.15462895

>>15462793
>She's the first one started us off
This doesn't make sense to me. In what vernacular is that a standard sentence?

>> No.15462906

>>15462887
>a shared quality without mentioning the quality that they share?

Except that they don't share that quality. "Black" people are just a very wide variety of browns, and none of them are African.

>> No.15462907

>>15462895
That's how the average uneducated person talks, dude. That kind of speech appears on TV, in movies, in plays, in literature, and basically literally everywhere. How have you not encountered it?

>> No.15462908

>>15462895
I don't know enough about AAVE to say this with any certainty, but I think it's a common feature in the dialect for null subjective relative pronouns in embedded clauses.

>> No.15462911

I'm not sure I get the point of learning a dialect with a textbook

>> No.15462912

>>15462887
Black American is infinitely more descriptive then african American

>> No.15462913

>>15462911
AAVE is a well studied subject for linguistics. A textbook may cover the basics, but really OP needs to read journal articles.

>> No.15462925

>>15462907
The first example seems weird aswell, she's the first one started us off, no one talks like that and its meaning is vague.

>> No.15462926

>>15462912
That's pretty not true

>> No.15462927

>>15462907
Maybe I'm just a retard who's reading it wrong, but that particular line is just baffling to me. "We're on tape" and "They're not caught" are normal sentences, they make sense. I can't even figure out what "she's the first one started us off" is supposed to mean.

>> No.15462938

>>15462925
I read she's as she is, although here it would only work in context as she was

>> No.15462943

How exactly should white writers go about writing black people's dialogue in literature/screenplays? If they write their dialogue as "white dialogue", they'll get flak for writing black characters who resemble white characters and possibly the writers themselves. On the other hand, if they write black characters' dialogue using AAVE, the dialogue would be labeled unrealistic with people saying that black people don't actually talk like that, and there would probably be accusations of racism.
I would say the best alternative would be to avoid writing black characters as a white person, but that would draw criticism when writing stories where diversity/black characters are to be expected.

>> No.15462947

>>15462895
>>15462925
The sentence is missing the relative pronoun "who" (or "that"); "She's the first one who started us off." What does that mean? I couldn't tell you without context.

>> No.15462954

>>15462925
>>15462927
Without a context, that sentence is pretty meaningless, yeah. But I can imagine someone saying it in a context wherein there is some preexisting situation, possibly a socially undesirable one, and a third party asking for an explanation. "She's the first one started us off" might be a literal factual description of, say, the beginning of a race or a discussion, or an attempt to point the finger at a woman for provoking a fight or an argument.

>> No.15462958

>>15462943
This feels like something of a case-by-case situation, but no answer (however appropriate to your goals) is going to be free from criticism. Well, you could always write speculative fiction about whatever real-world diversity issues you want to explore.

>> No.15462965

>>15462927
>They're not caught
That is extremely clunky.
>They have not been caught.
Would be a better example. It looks like a nigger unironically tried to translate their vernacular back to prescriptivism but failed. They should start from a base of orthogonal speech rather than start from a vernacular base but they may need outside help with that.

>> No.15462966

>>15462793
Not using "be" is based as fuck. Even more based than that is subject omission.

>> No.15462967

>>15462965
I don't think you get it. "They have not been caught" is the speech of the educated and the language of writing. "They're not caught" is how people generally talk. The point is to show the parallels between two forms of vernacular.

>> No.15462971

>>15462943
To remain consistent, they must say that white, male writers are only ever allowed to make white, male characters. Because they claim that people can only understand the experience of their own race/sex, and may not speak about others (as if we are of different species). So, if anyone gives you shit, tell them that you are a white male and cannot speak of things you have no experience of.

>> No.15462973

>>15462971
That suggestion basically destroys most opportunities for fiction writing. May as well just stick to memoir.

>> No.15462980

>>15462967
you sound like a retard. if someone asks me if a criminal has been apprehended i would say "they have not been caught". where on earth would i use the phrase "they're not caught" instead of the former

>> No.15462983

>>15462943
Writing dialogue for any character that has a different background than the author is challenging, whether they're black or a woman or young child

If the goal is realism, then you listen carefully to people speaking and try to convey the nuances of it in your own work

I don't think poor execution would be a problem unless you like, wrote the only black character in your serious work as an Amos and Andy skit unironically

>> No.15462990

>>15462973
Well, the real secret is not to live in America, but I did my best. Sorry, anon.

>> No.15462993

>>15462967
>"They're not caught" is how people generally talk.
No. This is already edging on negersprache. I "get it" - I just disagree. All three examples feel strained to me. The author is ESL; he is probably Ebonics as First Language.

>> No.15462994

>>15462980
I'm not talking about you. I would probably say "They've not been caught yet" or "They've not yet been caught," but that's completely irrelevant. The point is that uneducated and lower class speakers of English, or really anyone who speaks the standard equivalent of ebonics, would likely say "they're not caught yet" or something like that.

>> No.15462999

>>15462993
You've never been around poor whites, have you?

>> No.15463001

>>15462994
where do you live you fucking mongoloid, you're just making this shit up

>but that's completely irrelevant
it's literally your entire argument.

>> No.15463003

>>15462993
>This is already edging on negersprache.
How should one write "They're not caught"?

>> No.15463009

>>15462990
I don't see how living in America matters. If we accept as a premise that we can only write from real life experiences, then fiction writing seems mostly impossible. I'm not an engineer or a pilot or a commercial fisherman, so none of my characters can be either.

>> No.15463012
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15463012

>>15462999
>You've never been around poor whites, have you?
I have been around them enough to note the distinctions between their vernacular and the vernacular of blacks. Of course, these are poor whites that do not generally mingle with blacks. You need a better control group. I have seen whites speak as you indicate but they are generally affecting blackness.

>> No.15463018

>>15462967
They're not caught is just poor phrasing. It's not a sentence anyone would say

It's been a while since high school English but you need the past participle for it to make sense. Being caught is something that happens to you, not something that you actively do

It's not an example of sloppy grammar being used for convenience, that sentence isn't really functional by any convention

>> No.15463021

>>15463003
>How should one write "They're not caught"?
Perhaps:
>They haven't been caught.

>> No.15463022

>>15463012
>I have seen whites speak as you indicate but they are generally affecting blackness.
I don't think so. I also have the vague impression of having encountered this kind of speech in British media.
>>15463001
Somewhere no man wants to be.

>> No.15463027

>>15463018
>convention
>grammar
Missing the point.

>> No.15463035

>>15463027
>Missing the point.
Not him, but that is the entire point behind the assertion that the example is "Standard".

>> No.15463042

>>15463035
The "standard" there does not mean "Standard English."

>> No.15463049

>>15463027
All right I was as patient as I could possibly be with you, but now you're just begging to be softly kissed behind the ears .

>> No.15463051
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15463051

>>15463049
Come at me.

>> No.15463082

>>15463042
Please, elaborate what you think it means.

>> No.15463110

>>15462793
>Can an American please fill me in on Ebonics?
Not much to fill you in on. It's just a degenerated version of English spoken by the dregs of America.

>> No.15463759

>>15462926
How? They aren't Africans. They've been here at least as long as thr whites. We don't call white americans European Americans.

>> No.15463791

>>15462793
>Can an American please fill me in on Ebonics?
It's a vernacular or dialect. Like all dialects, it drifts and spreads outside of its original culture, in the same way english words end up in other languages through use or lack of a native word. In the same way English is cobbled together from earlier romance languages Ebonics/AAVE is distinct enough to warrant study but not enough to be a true new 'language'

>> No.15463805

>>15463759
Most people call african americans 'black' or 'black americans' in casual speech. African American is the term used on things like the census and such. 'White' and 'White(Non-hispanic)' is a relatively recent determination when WASPs and german-americans realized that if they kept separating say the Irish and anglo whites on census data they'd already be a minority.

>> No.15463976

>>15462793
The verb is "to be"
>be or not be
Retard

>> No.15463997

>>15462793
This is probably bait but if anyone's actually interested in learning about AAVE this video's the best I know of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkzVOXKXfQk

>> No.15464348

>>15463976
Finna ya seethe

>> No.15464372

>>15463976
To be is the infinitive, you mong